Tobold's Blog
Saturday, October 18, 2008
 
Karazhan easy mode

My guild did a short Karazhan raid last night, and I went along with my frostmage, who hadn't raided much yet, and got several nice epics. But since Blizzard has reduced the health of all raid mobs down by 30%, Karazhan was too easy for an experienced raiding guild with several raiders wearing much higher level gear. We had 4 mages in the raid, and our strategy at Moroes was "gather Moroes and all the adds on one spot, then AoE". This continued all the way through, we cleaned out the place in less than 3 hours, and even the final boss, the prince, just took 97 seconds to nuke to death. Nightbane never got around to use a single fear, we didn't need a beam rotation on Netherspite, all the bosses just fell over death before they could do anything serious.

I would have loved Karazhan if it had been like this in January 2007, with the mobs having low health like this, and no key requirement. It would have allowed even casual guilds to get into raiding shortly after doing a couple of level 70 dungeons. In October 2008 the changes are kind of silly. Even if there is anyone left who hasn't seen Karazhan yet, he'll still get better gear in Northrend in a month. And for those who already raided, the nerf just removes all strategy from the raid. At its current state the Karazhan bosses should give much less badges of justice, and there should be a "heroic" version where the bosses have more health and drop more badges. If the first raid dungeon in Wrath of the Lich King is like this, I'll be happy. But having an ultra-hard dungeon at the start of an expansion and nerfing it into sillyness at the end doesn't sound like a good plan to me.
Comments:
You are the Ginsu knife of MMO bloggers, by peeling away the game's skin and relentlessly dicing away at the core mechanics, thereby revealing their inherent flaws for everyone to see. The depressing part is that these flaws keep reappearing in every new MMO that's released.

= # # =
 
January 07, really?

I think that any earlier than Feb 08 would have been too early. Now is a perfect time, it will allow people who haven't seen it yet, able to see it before it's completely worthless in a month.

If you're really that casual and are just seeing Kara for the first time ever now.. are you really worried about gear?
 
With TBC I've really had the feeling all the way through that Blizzard was trying to herd people through content at a specific rate. And if you progressed too fast or too slow, you were going to be left either bored or frustrated (or both).

Question is, is it enough reward for the hardcore raiders to know that they beat the raids before patch X, after which everyone else did? And that they're likely going to keep going with this model?

But now this is just them saying 'OK, TBC is over. Content is all outdated now. Have a party in the ruins while we wrap up.'
 
"Just under 3 hours"?

That right there is the problem with raiding to me and why I'll never be able to participate.

If that was fast, I wouldn't even want to think how long it could have taken in the past.

Sure, there are occasions when I might have 3 hours straight to play a game, but I would never know so ahead of time and could never schedule time for a raid.
 
Bingo.

I quit WoW (over a year ago) after spending 3 weeks getting keyed for karazhan because I couldn't get through the first boss (huntsman) and had nothing else to do. I know Kara has been nerfed hardcore since then, but now no guilds exist that will take me with either my quest-blue geared rogue, priest, or hunter.

Blizzard needs to recognize that there are players out there between the hardest of raiders and the casualest of mailbox dancers, and I'm hoping WotLK's "10 mans for everyone" philosophy is part of that. Hopefully we'll finally get some end game progression of our own.

-Grey.
 
Tobold, the reason they did this is so everyone can see the raids before the expansion. You should see BT, it is ridiculous. But I am glad because I can now see it.
 
no offense tobold, but 3 hours was the time good groups needed before 3.0. now past 3.0 ~1 hour is no problem. even pick up groups do karazhan in about 1-2 hours now at least on th server i play.

but of course that hasnĀ“t anything to do with what you wanted to say with your post. so yes your right bc content is now totaly obsolete. even sunwell is a joke now. my guild cleared sunwell with s1 pvp geared people (alts).
 
Three hours is too short? How long do you think the optimal raid duration should be?

I could never take that much pain.
 
I'm not saying that 3 hours is too short for a raid, in fact I think its pretty much perfect for one raid night. But Karazhan used to be a two-night raid dungeon. If you do it in one night, you then have to wait a full week before you can do it again.
 
But having an ultra-hard dungeon at the start of an expansion and nerfing it into sillyness at the end doesn't sound like a good plan to me.

And having a too-easy raid with no strategy required at the start of WotLK is a good plan?

I don't understand your philosophy. What's your goal? Is it to have fun or win as many epics as possible? Do you really think most people would have loved Karazhan if they had been able to roll through it this easily when TBC was released? Heck no, they would have hated it! Or at least, most people would do it once just to get it over and then look ahead to more interesting things.

Having something which is trivial to do is never interesting or fun. By definition it cannot be, as it provides no challenge. The instances were nerfed because at this stage of the game it no longer matters. But if Blizzard had done this at the beginning, we would all have been very disappointed.
 
And having a too-easy raid with no strategy required at the start of WotLK is a good plan?

Karazhan as it is now would have required strategy at the start of TBC. It is only now, if you visit it with people in full epic gear from higher raid dungeons that it is too easy. A group of people in blue level 70 gear would have found Karazhan interesting as it is now, instead of punishing, as it was then.
 
I went through ZA yesterday and it was really sad. Pre-3.0 that would have been a 4th-chest-run with 22 minutes left on the timer.
DPS complained all the way because they couldn't even go through one full DPS-Cycle on anything short of a boss. Tanks used no CC at all, not even at Malacrass. And healing made me mad as hell, because you couldn't really do it. Tanks could be healed by a single Renew most of the time, Circle of Healing took care of the rest and extreme spikes were tended with Flash Heals. I tried, but it was literally impossible to cast a Greater Heal even once.

I had great fun in ZA for a long time, but this is no longer the instance i knew and liked. I won't visit it anymore, because it is neither challenge nor fun zerging everything down in seconds. I'm not yet sure what to do until the expansion hits, this patch took the fun out of nearly everything. I wouldn't complain if content was just easy, but now its so easy that I'm no longer able to do the things my class was meant to do.
 
We're a "casual" guild. We love to raid, we're all 30+ with kids and other commitment, pre patch we managed to clear all Kara and all but Zin in ZA. We raid twice to three times a week for a couple of hours. On Friday we cleared Kara with 1 tank and 1 healer, the rest we're all dps. It is sad yah, but at the same time it's the perfect time to gear alts :) We rely heavily on some players having lots of alts to fill different slots. We're mostly geared out in the best badge gear we can get, since we don't do 25 man raids. For one I look forward to WotLK, and I do hope and pray that the 10 man raids are all that they are promised to be, for a guild like ours, it will be a life saver. We have been zerging Kara for a long time now, until ZA we had nothing else to do. ZA was totally the wrong difficulty level when it was introduced, it should have been aimed at guilds like ours, but we still managed to make good progress. We finally killed Zin last week, after the patch, mainly because we haven't been able to get the numbers. It felt like a hollow victory to me, though I am pretty sure we could have done it pre-patch, still, kind of sad.
 
Completing Kara in an hour is a load of crap. Even in easy mode, simply transiting from one boss to the next will eat up more time than that, even if the bosses drop in a matter of seconds.
 
We managed to beat Karazhan in 2 hours without trying too hard and with 1/4 of our people playing alts even before the patch. I fully believe it can be done in 1 hour now.
Just an example: When a mob is at 50% health there is no need for the tank to stay, he can get the next one while DDs finish of the half dead mob staying behind him. Also tanks can pull simultaneously, one group per tank so DDs can get out maximum DPS right from the start.

There are dozends of little tricks that let you progress faster. If you're used to them and its farm content than you will tear through the instances while having a great time chatting in vent.
 
Tobold you're obviously totally out of the loop on this one, and I guess you havent played wow for ages, so this is kind of a ridiculous post. Its beside the point. Its kind of laughable how out of context your comments are.

They have done this because they want players to experiment with all the big important changes to their class, and to see the content that will be totally obsolte in a few weeks. TBC ended with patch 3.0 and now its just a free romp around the instances, and everyone has a cheat code. You're suggesting that Blizz made some weird strategic mistake, but its nothing of the sort.
 
We ran a Kara on Sunday in an hour and a half. Only two mains, the rest were alts of varying gear, most on the very low end,including three who had never been in Kara at all.

It was absolutely fun - but it was too easy for January of 2007. Part of the fun in raiding, for raiders, is challenging themselves, even if it means that you're beating your head against a brick wall. Having to learn the strats and the coordination and developing the skill.

What you seem to be wanting is a raid instance for non-raiders, and I can sympathize with that. But I think that that idea shuts out the people that enjoy raiding but on the casual schedule where they want to do it in a 10 man and not a 25 man setting. So I think the only way that would have worked is if there had been more than one 10 man at the start of TBC (which I believe you've said you would have wanted and I agree with you there) - but it's also looking at a different raiding model and one that I don't think Blizzard could really have predicted at TBC.
 
I'm personally depressed at seeing my guild brute forcing all of the old dungeons. We were a BT-clearing guild that was working our way through Sunwell when we called a stop to raiding (so not cutting edge, but not horrible) and every day I'm watching guildies kicking over old content. AQ40 in less than an hour, AQ20 and ZG in less than an hour total. These are raiders who have seen and beat this content before, mind you, but now for the sake of an achievement they're off to the far reaches of Azeroth to do things one last time.

I find it depressing.

I've decided to just concentrate on the Fishing achievements. I've run 0 raids since the patch. The only thing I've done is the UBRS run you mentioned, and that was depressing enough. That was enough to tell me I didn't need to be spending time looking at what a joke old content has become.
 
Even MgT is a shell of it's former self. I can understand wanting to open up the game to everyone this late but still... Are rewards as rewarding with no work to get them?
 
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