Tobold's Blog
Monday, November 24, 2008
 
Are Death Knights overpowered?

Taking up a subject from the open Sunday thread, and with an obvious fit to today's class balance post, I'd like to discuss whether Death Knights are overpowered. That is not an easy question. One problem is that if you only play a Death Knight to lets say level 60, you might well conclude that he is overpowered, but a good part his power at these levels comes from his starting gear. We instinctively compare the new class to something we know, how our previous classes played up to level 60. But of course *all* classes got boosted with patch 3.0.2., and when we reached level 60 back in the days before TBC, we didn't have the uber gear the Death Knight receives as part of his starting quest line.

So before we can actually make a valid comparison, we would have to play a Death Knight to level 70, and see how he fares in Northrend, in comparison to our current level 70s+. There have been reports that even there the Death Knight deals more damage than any other class, dealing more damage while tanking in a group than other classes that are pure damage dealers.

Tanking is an art that consists of two parts: Damage mitigation and holding aggro. My Priest was healer in a group with a level 75 Death Knight tank, and they are clearly inferior in damage mitigation to the other tank classes. The problem of DK tanks is that they don't have as many and as good taunting abilities as the Warrior has, they hold aggro mostly through damage dealing. But if you hold aggro by dealing damage, you need gear that gives bonuses to damage, and come up necessarily short on classic tank stats like defense. I haven't seen a frost DK in tanking action yet, everybody is unholy or blood for better damage output. I could imagine that a frost DK with 490 defense, and high values in stats like dodge, and parry, would be much better in damage mitigation, but I'm not quite sure yet how he would hold aggro when he deals less damage.

Of course when talking about "overpowered", we will have to ask "overpowered compared to what?". Up to now I don't have the impression that Death Knights are overpowered compared to Warriors, in a tanking role. In my currently still limited experience as healer of Death Knights, if I had the choice of tanks, Death Knight would rank at the bottom, below Warrior, Druid, and Paladin. But apparently the people complaining most about Death Knights are the dps classes. Undoubtedly Death Knights have far better damage mitigation, and depending on spec also self-healing capabilities than lets say a Mage. So if the Death Knight deals more damage than the mage, I can understand why the Mage would be unhappy, even if the Mage remains king in aspects like crowd control or AoE damage. Maybe the better comparison would be with a Rogue. Are Death Knights making Rogues obsolete?

And then of course there is PvP. The arena is currently in suspension, and most people are busy leveling instead of doing PvP, so there hasn't been all that much PvP involving Death Knights yet. But classes with a high damage output are potentially very powerful in PvP, especially if you add all the other goodies, like damage mitigation, self-healing, and pets to the mix.

So in summary I'd say it's still a bit early to say for me whether Death Knights are truly overpowered. Feel free to post your experiences with Death Knights here. Do you think they are overpowered?
Comments:
Of course they are overpowered yet. They need an overpowered tank class to lure people into playing them. That said, only very few players will be able to use the class to full potential and that probably will balance the class out.

I played with frost DKs as tanks and they're superior to warriors and druids by a large margin. Paladins not so much. As a DPS class i wouldn't complain about any DK, as long as they are tanking. Any DK that gives me the "i play DPS only" will make my ignore list. When a superior tank class steals DPS spots we have a problem. Until then i'm fine.

Judgement to PvP is yet to come, but on paper DK is counter to so many classes, that we will see many balancing patches to come. I have no problem with an overpowered class, that very few are able to handle well. Let's wait some more weeks.
 
I am biased since I am leveling a DK, I will admit that upfront. You can disregard everything if you so choose for that reason. I will simply tell what I have seen.

The first aspect is soloing: DKs, and blood DKs in particular are AMAZING soloers. But from what I have seen, hunters are just as good soloers as I am, and even have an advantage in that they have a variety of CC while I have none, as well as the ability to drop combat if things head south.

Another issue is how classes balance: DKs get their power almost ENTIRELY from gear and talents. Levels add very little to their Damage completely. Icy Touch goes from 127-137 at level 55 to 227 to 245 at level 80, retaining the exact same benefit from AP throughout. Compare that to say, frostbolt which does 429-463 at 56 and 791 to 861 with the same benefit from SP throughout. And all strikes scale off weapon damage with very small amounts of extra damage that barely go up in level. What this means is that while I would easily agree that DKs are overpowered at 60, by 70 I've found that we are only very slightly better than the other classes and when we first hit 80 we are slightly BEHIND other classes! Of course, as raid gear comes into play power ramps up again, but so do everyone else. From what I've seen of beta parses, DKs do nothing amazing in terms of DPS, ending up rather middle of the pack. Note that warriors and rogues feel the same way too.

As for tanking, I've tanked every instance up through violet hold by now, and have been able to do them all fairly easily (Note: All the 5mans are fairly easy so this is nothing special). I have a lot less mitigation than other tanks (Especially since they got to gear up at 70 and have better gear than my ragtag mix of greens and blues) but no healer has found it impossible to keep me up or anything. Infact, I'm generally pretty loved by healers, though that is more a function of me having previous tanking experience and being good at the job, not DK being any real good at it. To make up for our lesser mitigation, the one thing we DO have is lots of very short cooldown abilities. Being able to essentially "shield wall" every 18 seconds out of every 60 seconds, and then getting 25% miss for another 15 seconds out of every 3 minutes and then 25% more armor and 5% parry for 20 seconds every 60 seconds...Excellent tools, but much harder to use properly than passive mitigation and avoidance.

For people getting out DPSed...how much DPS are you doing exactly? How much are they doing? Is that single target or AoE? There are a lot of factors that could be leading to a DK out DPSing you, some of which aren't so obvious. One thing is that the way runes and RP are set up, a DK is spending almost every single GCD doing something productive. Optimizing rotations sort of come naturally in the course of playing a DK whereas its usually something only raiders do in other classes. Another thing to note, especially if the DK is tanking is something very often overlooked: You generally don't start DPS for a few seconds so the tank can grab and hold agro. That means the DK, already a natural DPS tank, is getting a couple seconds extra damage time EVERY SINGLE PULL. That adds up as well.

Oh well. I just wish people would hold off til 80 to make their judgements about DKs. The same issue happened in TBC where people railed against druids as being OP and they ended up being just fine at 70.
 
I've been wondering by myself how DKs would do in PvP, and which classes that will have the most problems against them.

They are launched as anti-magic tanks but I don't have enough information yet to know how serious that anti-magic profile works in PvP. I've seen a few abilities like interrupts and some anti-magic shell, but it seems like those have too short duration to cause any serious problems. That's just speculation from my side though.

One of the classes that I have a large experience with is the rogue, and I've always had a tough time against tank types in any way, shape or form. I really think that rogues will have a much tougher time from now on.
 
The same issue happened in TBC where people railed against druids as being OP and they ended up being just fine at 70.

Em no, they ended up overpowered as people predicted, that's why the first patch after BC launch nerfed feral DPS and buffed warrior aggro and this is the same thing all over again. Do the math, DKs will achieve very competitive mitigation (without active skills) once every tank reached 80 and the gear reset took full effect. The nerfs will come (not only to DKs). Good thing about DK is, nerfs are very easy to introduce, without breaking the class. Their ressource system is very impressive. You can change very small things with huge results.
 
Ive started healing DK tanks of late and I'm quite happy with them. They seem to take more damage than a warrior or druid - and have less health generally - but I don't feel like I have to watch them as carefully as I have to with a Pally.

One thing I have noticed is that - and that is purely my pov and could be wrong - the DK doesn't seem to have much of a get-out-of-jail card. By this I mean if I become incapacitated (read: dead), a warrior can pop shield wall and last stand. A druid and pally can quickly heal. ASAIK the DK has death strike which isn't as effective. As I said, might be wrong, my DK is only 59 and will probably stay that way hehe.
 
Chrismue is right about feral druids in TBC, everyone thought they were OP. Turned out they had better dps than a rogue (while tanking) and better aggro generation than a protection warrior. They received their justified nerfs in early BC.

I have not seen any DK tanks, one of the obvious reasons being that they are all in full levelling mode with levelling gear (dps) and specs (blood/unholy). Not many have a set of tank gear, while most warriors and druids that have been 70 do.

While the introduction of a new cool tank class maybe designed to alleviate the tank shortage, everything it pointing to another slew of dps warriors and retribution paladins rather than an influx of ready and willing tanks.

Also, where is this dual spec feature? While it has little effect on my levelling rogue right now, my druid friend who has a full set of gear for tanking, healing and dps is still spending a fortune respeccing to fill roles in instance groups.
 
Well to be fair, no one ever said the dual spec was due in the patches or expansion, just that they were "working on it"
 
Yes, Blizzard's new baby is overpowered, and probably will be greatly so for the next few months (while the devs claim they need data) and then moderately so through the rest of the expansion. It's a marketing tool. You don't create something brand new that sucks.

Death Knights can't use shields, so that major form of mitigation is out. But they are ahead of Druid tanks at the moment and Blizzard knows this - which is why there are going to be major feral revamps soon.

Are they overpowered in pvp? http://jadefury.blogspot.com/
This guy has been the lead DK for a while and those numbers speak for themselves.

Then look at how quickly they chew up quest content.

Not even a question. Which fits Blizzard's pattern of classes going up and down in terms of power to one another. Top of the mountain one day, bottom another. Enjoy what you can while you can.
 
I'm more pissed off at OP retadins atm. Even after the nerf they do as much burst as my muti rogue, can heal, bubble and wear plate.
 
> There have been reports that even there the Death Knight deals more damage than any other class, dealing more damage while tanking in a group than other classes that are pure damage dealers.

I've read such forum posts. I've also read replies where people running in instances with DKs out-DPSed them.

> Are they overpowered in pvp? http://jadefury.blogspot.com/

A single good player does not an OP class make...

IMHO, all PvE or PvP comparisons pre-80 are not really meaningful. Even at 80 such comparisons need to be taken with a grain of salt and the average of many reports looked at over time to make the comparison valid.

PvE comparisons are hard enough due to variable nature of fights, fight mechanics, fight length, DPS type done (single-vs-multi) etc. It's bad enough to correctly assess whether a new DPS player is bad or not at max cap, as any raid leader or officer will tell you. But to try to do the same before, when players are vastly differently geared, still playing around with talents or missing key ones, maybe even of different levels? Plus most of these comparisons are done based on personal view of either a specific run or worse fight.

PvP is even worse.
1) The nature of the fight makes a huge difference - e.g. the dominance in terms of damage done of hunters in BGs vs. their nearly complete absence from higher-level Arena teams.
2) For BGs below the cap (e.g. the 70-79 bracket mentioned in the linked site), players of vastly different levels play together. Naturally a level 70 player will do less damage than a level 79 players! Apart from these many players playing in such BGs do not optimize their spec for PvP but rather for PvP/leveling, leading to an imbalance for players who did invest more in PvP oriented talents.
3) For all BGs, Horde will usually do better in every metric. Most Alliance players, knowing this, will barely even try to play a group game or even attempt to win the PvP. This leads to a vicious cycle of Horde winning, Alliance losing, thus strengthening the feedback effect.
4) As for comparisons within the same faction, apart from the above factors there are simply the issues of players being better geared, more knowledgeable or simply more motivated.

At level 80, many of the issues disappear naturally, or become lessened as e.g. people of relatively the same level of gear raid together or PvP vs. one another. The differences can be further smoothed by taking a large enough sample (several thousand BGs...). But before level 80? Personal reports of "man I never did as much damage or killed mobs as quickly" need to be taken with a grain of salt. I didn't notice high-end geared players had any problem chewing through the levels at either TBC release or the WotLK release, and none of them were DKs... Even if partially true, such trivia is of limited long-term interest. The real WoW game starts at max level cap, anything before is just a prelude... :)
 
I've been doing alot of grouping with a DK friend and he's been giving me lots of damage meters/recounts of raid encounters. His 'ex-main' was a Warrior also so we sort of sit on the same ground.

Tanking wise from what i've seen in Heroics they're on par with most classes easily. If anything they manage better than some in specific scenarios - I wouldn't say they're tanking is currently OP. It's the damage though that's the problem.

Reports i've seen of 10man raids are showing him topping alot of the meters almost every fight with a higher amount of consistant DPS. He's knocking better geared mages/warlocks/hunters off the top spot by a fair margin - all of which he admits is ridiculously OP. Don't forget it's not just the fact his damage is pretty high but he needs little healing because of his self heals (whilst dpsing, so he negates aoe damage on himself). He's Unholy spec, so I've no idea if that's currently the better DPS spec or not but then he gets put into having to tank occasionally for the raid (although he's brought in as mainly a DPS) so I presume that's why he's Unholy.

Still, after the first raid he did the first words he whispered me with were "lol this is so getting nerfed".
 
I've been leveling a DK, so far and it's true, that they are very fast at leveling. But so what, they are still 15 levels behind everybody else, and if that serves to decrease how far back they are, then so what. Balance needs to be based off what happens at 80.

Another point to consider about tanking on the way to 80 for DKs is that they have no access to +defense gear. I tanked my first instance (Nexus) using very high stamina gear, but I know my priest was having trouble, as I was getting crit continuously. Compare that to a 70 Warrior, who probably had a defense capped raiding set from TBC. Big difference that should smooth itself out as DKs get more traditional tanking gear.
 
I did Violet Hold with a Blood-DK some days ago and did 3200 DPS. Do I have to say more?
Also I healed both a feral druid and a Unholy-DK as tanks on level 80 (Halls of Lightning). The feral had about 3000 health more but the DK was able to heal himself for 5000 hp via some skill. Difficulty to heal them was about equal, perhaps DK was a bit easier. Oh.. and the Unholy tank did over 2000 DPS while tanking.
 
To me they seem to be yeah... :D Im burning through TBC so fast, its funny (which is a good thing, i want my DK to go to northrend quickly). Of course the fact that i know all the quests and layout of the land helps, not to mention the decreased xp requirements. I agree with some earlier posts, of course the DK should be powerful, its one of the main attractions of this xpack. The first hero class struggling through levels would a bad thing, markering-wise.
 
It is going to be balanced out. They have entirely too many abilities and buffs to justify the amount of DPS that they are putting out. If they don't balance it out prior to the first arena season launching I forsee much angst on the WoW forums...well more angst than usual.
 
They feel very overpowered to me. I leveled up to 70 trying out both Blood and Unholy, which were very fun. No downtime, no fear of death from adds (ever), super fast killing.

Once I hit Northrend, I did some quests and picked up a bunch of the green Cobalt +defense gear. I respec'd to Frost and tanked Nexus without a hitch, an instance I'd never even DPS'd or healed. I dropped under 50% only a few times, which I'm sure was partially the fault of a very competent healer.

DK tanking requires a bit more action on the player's part to manage his own mitigation, whether that's through Rune Tap, Unbreakable Armor, Icebound Fortitude (way OP with that cooldown), or others. But if you're on top of using those short cooldowns, it's very very easy, at least at the 70-72 level.
 
In PvE, I have yet to decide on the DK’s level of power. But from a mechanics perspective they certainly look a little too good.

The major issue is that they have no payment on their base attacks. A rogue has to wait for energy, a warrior has to build rage but the DK has instant attacks at all times. For someone wielding a two hander that is suspect. Sure they need to chain a number of their instants together to open up their nukes, but so does the rogue.

This weekend saw a LOT of DKs hitting world PvP, and yes there they are currently OP, at least against any range or mana attack class.

I saw a 74 DK absolutely trash three casters equal or higher level, and finish off with ¾ of his life. The “get over here” move plays a huge part, but may be manageable however not with 2 silences (3 as a blood-elf). No class should have that many silences.

Melee with stuns seem to be able to hold their own, but enhancement shamans are going to join casters on the corpse run.
 
>A single good player does not an OP class make...

Indalamar did it for warriors pre-tbc...
 
I've seen some very odd results from Recount for my DK, with reported levels of DPS far in excess of what I was really doing, judging by the rate that mobs died at. I suspect that what we may be seeing here is teething troubles with addons coping with a new and complex class, rather than real numbers. I'd suggest waiting a while for these things to stabilise before judging whether DKs are OP.
 
Unholy tanks are aoe tanks. They do a lot of damage to a lot of mobs. If you've never seen a prot paly at the top of the dps meter when there's a lot of AOE than you've been grouping with bad prot palies. You might also consider that many DK tanks are Tanking in their DPS gear. A DK tank only looses 15% damage when switching to their tank presence. Leveling I'd say they are OP mostly through the combination of Deathstrike and the Death strike glyph. You should consider the Deathknight class still in beta. Blizzard stopped balancing them when the live patch hit to focus on the live classes. 3.1 will bring significant changes. DPS wise my deathknight has not dominated all classes. Right now its in the middle of the road. I'm not sure what will happens once it gets epic'd out. On beta with everone wearing pvp gear I was right with the warriors in DPS. I'd say they are fine DPS wise.
 
I leveled a druid from 60-70 with the first wave of DKs. I'm an Alliance player on a PvP server that is dominated by Horde.

From a PvE perspective I healed Death Knight groups through every sub-70 Outland instance, and they ARE harder to heal when compared to other tanks (I healed on my paladin for 2+ years). The lack of a shield really shows. I suspect that as they get higher levels and become more accustomed to their abilities this will be less of a problem.

From a PvP perspective Death Knights encounters are strange. As a hybrid-spec Druid (mostly Balance with Resto talents for healing) I could kite most them to death with little effort. On the other hand, I encountered a few DKs who were VERY good at controlling my movements. At one point I was killed by a DK that was 4 levels beneath me. Everytime I broke his snare to get range, he would hit me with something else to slow me down. I STILL don't know what he did to me.

If the DK can keep me in melee range I die VERY fast.
 
This ignorance really is becoming a problem in WoW. People make pre-emptive decisions on things they don't know or understand. NO current player, whether DK or otherwise has the right to state anything regarding class balance. Many people are still learning their classes/specs. This is part of the problem with expansions and new levels/content.

Data current on realms regarding DKs is skewed. They are strong, but the thing is they are not OP. I've done some limited BGs @ 80 and well SKILLED players can take care of me just as easy as they ever could. One of the major drawbacks to DKs is that we have no way to really get out of snares. We do have some abilities to assist us with getting back in melee range, but we can be kited (easier than warriors or paladins).

DKs are not like any other class. You actually have quite a few different abilities that you NEED to use in order to be successful. It's not a 1-button 'I WIN class'. That's the thing that really draws me to playing the class. I've had my fair share of kills and deaths. Do I claim to be an expert? NO. I've played numerous classes including warrior, paladin, mage, rogue and druid - all for at least 75+ played time. Do I feel certain specs lend themselves to be a little 'op'? Sure, but that doesn't mean you should nerf the class INTO THE GROUND (gg paladin qq).

Please stop the ignorance, give it time to play out. When everyone is in full epics/arena gear, and if then a DK in greens/blues can best you 9/10 times we can state then that the DK is OP.
 
Its a hero class its supposed to be overpowered. As for the DK>druid tank, just wait until an Archdruid class makes its way to WoW. I wouldnt be surprised if Frozen throne is the last Big expansion, and they opt for easier to sell mini upgrades in the form of DLC. With the successes of its competitors like warhammer are AoC, they will probably bring it more seige and playercreated warfare vs the welfare epic instanced pvp they have now.

~Tenmohican, retired tbc pally
 
"> Are they overpowered in pvp? http://jadefury.blogspot.com/

A single good player does not an OP class make..."

Ok, but that's more than just a single good player, that's guy who helped shape DK's as a class... and he's saying they're overpowered. Mind you that he plays on what is considered the toughest battlegroup for pvp.

Did you look at the clips and that final scoreboard? 400k+ damage - more than double anyone else- and 150k healing on top of that. Where's the downside to playing one? People getting used to playing against them is a wash against people learning to play them.

I can't believe the people saying "wait." We've noted all this on beta for months. Just like ret pallies.
 
Ret pallies are easy to kill - silence, slow (poison or earthbind), then caster dps. Done.

DKs are much more problematic.
 
No idea where all this "I've healed DK tanks just fine" comments are coming from... In the level 80 instances, the DKs I'm healing are taking huge spike damage. I'm talking chain casting 8.5k greater heals every 2.3 seconds and they still drop...
 
In pvp they may be OP. The spec Jayde runs is nearly unkillable. His owning the dmg in that BG is because he's not dying at all. You think the QQ is bad now? Just wait till the arena matches where at the end its toe to toe and you just barely kill the DK, but than you have to deal with his risen ghoul. Oh the cries we will see.
 
The problem is that there is a very narrow minded view when evaluating DK's. People have played for the last four years and have come to expect a certain mechanic when it comes to how a character functions. The new DK class does not fit into the norm and operates in a new way entirely. However this does not make the class overpowered, but rather different. You can't run into a situation like this and in the first three weeks yell "OMG overpowered!!" when noone has had time to understand the mechanics of the class. People need to take time to learn how to counter the class rather than screaming OP every time they lose to one. It's not Blizz's job to make the game easier it's our job to learn how to play it better. All the QQ'ing is really sad because you can clearly see that this has shown it's face in how easy much of the new content is.
 
I don't think DKs are necessarily overpowered. Are they powerful? Sure. They're great at soloing but I don't think in groups they make any other class obsolete. Personally I think it's about time they made a class with lots of anti-caster abilities. One thing I will say about them is that they are very versatile.
 
Everyone has their own views and opinions(way to much from just plain speculation), so I'll throw mine into the mix as well.

Ive tanked every instance I've been in up to and including Drak'Tharon/AK: The Old Kingdom as full blood with a few points into frost/unholy for the 15 sec D&D cd and Toughness). I heal myself for half the overall total healing done by my healer. This means if they heal 1.2 million overall, I heal for about 500k and with glyph of rune tap, that extends to 800-1300 party wide heals every 30 seconds, 3-8k self heals on me not including Death Strike with Vampiric Blood. I've been in situations where had I not been blood, and there's been quite a few of them, or a prot warrior was tanking (regardless of stats), we would have wiped. Blood DK's have incredible survivability. Let a prot warrior go try tanking Jedosa in AK: TOK for the last 20 seconds of the fight without a healer.

As far as damage and aggro mitigation goes: Morbidity 3/3, aggro problem solved. 5 seconds gap of non threat generation besides other AoE (Pestilence) and when you slap it down again, instant and very high threat generation all over again. Dark Command is a life saver. All in all, your DK tank HAS to know how and when to use his or her abilities - like someone said before, there is no "oh shit" button for DK's or a one button "kill, gg".

As far as overpowered? How high is a Mages spell crit? How high is a Lock's SB? I've seen them hit for 8k at 70. The highest I've hit with my SEVENTY SIX DK is 5,200. What about retadin's with two 2k hits every 8 seconds when they stack judgements? I don't compain or think anything needs balancing - player skill and gear comes into play now, just like it has with paladin's.

As for defeating a DK as a clothie/spellcaster? I'll repeat something a lock told me when I asked them if they would keep me feared during the duel: "You wear plate, I wear fear."
 
I'd just like to state for the whole DK over powered part, firstly they are fun. Though this doesn't mean they can't be fun with some over due nerfing. I have constantly played against DK in pvp 1v1 and BG as a Arms warrior, my gear is better as i have some merc glads and most pvp blues from blacksmithing. I have not once won against a Death knight even if they are 3-5 levels below me espiacly my level. Even if i am horrible at playing my class, which i'm not. Should i not have atleast one win?. They may be my counter but i doubt this as i have seen my friend 1v1 a ?? lock and win. DK's need to be nerfed.
 
Shield block....lol fail
 
I play a level 80 warlock. My job is dps, with the occasional CC depending on the situation. I have tried at least 15 different spec's in an effort to find the most dps since Wotlk was released. I can keep up with mages, shamans, well any casting dps class and rogues. The only classes that consistly out dps me are feral druids tanking, paladins (non healer), and DKs. I am ok with the paladin and feral druids out dps'n me, but the DKs always out dps me and level doesn't seem to matter. I ran several instances with DKs 3-5 levels below me and the DKs always do at least 10% more damage. My son plays a DK, we have very similar gear (all 78-80 blues) and he consistently out damages me by 15-20%.

I can't really comment on PVP since I am terrible as a warlock, I just get ruined by warriors, rogues and DKs.

My take, DKs do more damage than any class in the game right now (every time I have grouped with one they lead the damage meter). Is this intentional on Blizzard's part? It seems strange that any tom, dick or harry can load up a DK and rock the damage meter regardless of skill level.
 
I just want to ask a simple question: What's the difference between normal class and heroic class? If they are the same, what's the point of creating a heroic class? If DK just get different abilities but still even in abilities with other classes, what's the point of HEROIC ?
 
I think heroic class should not be nerfed, if DK is nerfed, it is not heroic class anymore! Blizzard can stop DK from entering arena\PVP area, but cannot nerf it. It it nerfed, no more heroic class exist, DK should be deleted.
 
i played tonight in some PvP CTF in warsong gluch... 9 of the 10 alli players where 59 dk's we had 2 dk's on our team... i play as a mage and i got 1 kill.... i could not even play because of how the DK cant suck me in with that move they have from farther away then any of my cast spells... so for a mage at level 59 you can not play PvP u will only die... so its over powered... there should be a limit or something on how many DK's can be in a room for PvP because they are pretty insane
 
I play a HOLY "DPS" Pally, that I had twinked out at level 49. I leveled to 58 and now play with the DK's. I play BG's with my pally. Last night I played probably 10 WSG's and in every one of them the Horde had atleast 6 DK's and so did the Alliance. I had the opputunity to get a Death Knight alone. The fight between us lasted forever. I won in the end, with 179 HP's left and very little mana. I don't think that DK's are overpowered in BG's its just that there are so many of them. I can beat them, but not when I have 4 on me. Which happens often because they know that I can heal, so they want me dead. They can withstand damage long enough to kill me while my team mates are trying to kill them, after im dead, they turn on my team mates and bye bye. I think that after a while the NEW-ness of the DK's will dissapate and the BG's at this level will even out. I remember when leveling up my toons and stopping at each BG for some gear that for a while every team had 5 hunters, that soon went away. It's just a matter of time. I will say that when the DK's do that thing where they grab you and bring you close to them is really anoying, but at the same time it has made the BG kinda fun. I can only hope that the number of DK's in BG's will eventually dwindle.......I still have my 49 twink gear, not one change and I can beat a DK with 6k hp, I only have 4.2k hp. so I don't think that they are overpowered just alot of DK's, i mean a whole bucket full of them in every BG.
 
In regards to the last post, you are Pally. That makes a big difference. Pally's are still slightly overpowered. Imagine a tank class having top dps. A dps class like a warlock/mage is supposed to have higher dps because they die easier. Not now. They still die easy, but they don't hit so hard anymore. So any other class (especially casters) have no chance with DK's (include mages, warlocks, balance druids, and to a slightly lesser extenct shadow priests). I have soloed every class in wow. My 79 warlock didnt even stand a chance against a 70 DK. And its not just me, I see it happening every time. The only time I see a DK go down is when there are multiple toons attacking a lone DK. Oh, and a pally has several unique spells that the DK can not stop, so this gives you an edge, no other class can boast this. So, no its not just that there are more DK's now. If you look at soloing, its obviously at every level teir they are OP. And as far as you being able to solo one, (1). Your a pally (mentioned before). 2. You might have been playing against an average or below average player and/or your a good player (gratz). 3. You have not solo'd a DK with any other class. 4. You sounded like you knew what you were talking about, but have you never seen anyone else fight a DK solo or even a small group fighting a solo DK? It's hard for me to imagine that you spent anytime in PVP/BG's and not seen the problem people are having killing them.
 
Death Knight's in PvP are way OP at level 59-60...at least from what I've seen. Every single time a DK pulled me to him, half my health was gone in the first hit. I am a Shaman with decent gear, and a lot of gear that boosts nature damage...Couple that with stormstrike, and earth shock, and I usually end up taking about half of an enemy's health bar out with 2 simple spells...But a DK's health bar is BARELY touched when I try that...And they, as I said earlier, can take out half my health bar with ONE hit. I started a DK, but haven't gotten far enough along to see just how good I would be in PvP with them...

I seriously think they need to take DK's down a bit for PvP...Everyone gets hit hard, and there are a lot of people asking in BG chat if it's just them, or are the DK's hitting extremely hard?
 
I think that Blizzard really Wrecked the BG's with DK's . after this game card if there is no Nerf for Death Knights in a patch i give up and will Quit wow period to get a real life .. cheers ... Fawk Yeu Blizz
 
I can speak of dks in pvp vs shadow priests. i played a few rounds last night at 59 bracket. most games had a very high percentage of dks for both teams. i did wsg and ab. usually in the previous brackets 29,39,49, i was top of the chart with decent gear. at lvl 58 with good gear i have consistantly gotten completely owned by dks. I have absolutly no chance whatsoever. 1vs1=gg shadow priest. its especially terrible when you are trying to cast any non instant cast spell and a dk grabs from forty yards away. you fear try to cast again. another dk grabs you.. its just not happening. no chance at all. i was killing ppl in WP b4 i went wsg/ab, i was killing 3 ppl at once and camping there body. yes they werent very good, but they werent much lower lvl then me either, much of that was skill. I went to pvp and got owned hardcore by lower lvled dks... dk is soooo OP for 59 bracket.. it is insaine. only class i saw that was doing well was dk and paliden. i saw a 59 twinked mage who had lots of hp, mana, and SP. He was fire spec. he was getting owned hardcore just like me..
 
Last night a 62 DK killed both of us; 64 warior & 64 warlock. And believe me as a Demonology/Affliction mix warlock; i ever killed 2 Allied just by myself but after killing them i get lost really fast, not to get caught! This guy was camping on our corpses cuz he was pretty sure he ll kill us once again... and that was what really happened! Thats dumb and crazy to see all months of work i did and i did it for nothing!!!
 
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