Tobold's Blog
Wednesday, December 10, 2008
No dps needed for Naxxramas heroic

This post would have fit better into the Naxx theme of yesterday, but I've only read this news today: 2 German players 2-manned Loatheb on heroic. One tank and one paladin healer sneaked past the trash using invisibility potions, and then killed the probably easiest boss in Naxxramas in heroic mode. Slight disadvantage of not bringing 23 friends for dps: The fight took 3 hours and 12 minutes.

Teut worries that if raiding becomes to easy, WoW players would lose their role models, because the elite players quit the game out of boredom. But I don't think there is a huge risk of that, because somebody is always going to be "the best". If the top players quit, the second rank will simply become the new top, fulfilling the same role model function. And as this news show, if beating the game in a regular way isn't challenging enough, you can always make it artificially harder. Be leet, solo Naxxramas on heroic.
Loatheb was already killed at lvl60 by a group of 5: warrior, warlock and 3 shadow priests. Vampiric Embrace's heals weren't affected by the "no heals" aura. Comparing raid sizes (5 people being 12.5% of a 40 man raid vs 2 people being 8% of a 25 man raid), makes these two fellows exactly 4.5% more elite than the previous achievement! Bravo ;)
You fail at math.
0.08 / 0.125 = 0.64
That means the 2 fellows are 64% more elite than the 5 ;)
Sorry couldn't resist :P
Haha you're right, I do fail at math. Regardless! They're more elite, that's what matters! ;)
Be uber-leet: Solo Naxxramas on heroic. Naked.
There should be an achievement for that.
#2, your math is backwards... by your logic if I soloed Loatheb you would calculate that I was only 32% (= .04 / .125) more elite and if I brought my whole raid, I would be 800% (= 1.0 / .125) more elite...

The 2 players beat the boss with a 92% player shortage (= 23 / 25). The 5 players beat it with a 87.5% shortage (= 35 / 40). Therefore, the two German players are in fact 5.1% more elite (= 0.92 / 0.875)!
2 manning Loatheb is not relevant to the overall difficulty of current raid instances. It was a clever utilization of a gimmick isolated to that fight. If the developers wanted to they could implement a small change to the fight to block something like this from happening but why do that? Most players, given the choice between two manning a single boss for 3.5 hours or clearing most of Nax would probably choose the latter. Loatheb's loot is limited, so it would be impossible for those players who do choose to do this, once a week, to gear up more than the small subset of drops available. Hardly game breaking or indicative of the raid scene at large.
Role models for motivation to do an activity for entertainment? So now we need someone to look up to in order to keep motivated to do what we do when we aren't doing something that we don't want to do? Does anyone else who reads this blog feel like if there weren't uber 2 days to level cap players on their server they would just sit in front of the bank in Org all day? Wow.
leetness, stupidity, whatever gets the job done ;)
All praise to those guys for duoing a boss like that. It's a fun, slightly silly challenge and things like that just make me smile. I don't know if we really need the more über-l33t role models though. I don't need one to watch TV or read a book - why do I need a role model to play a game?
Role models do exist in various ways. You see a fellow gamer with a cool weapon, he got it from instance xyz, so you want to go too. If you aren't ready for it you can never get it. Its a motivation build inside any mmo. The Über Guilds are just the tip of the iceberg there.

If that role model doesn't exist then MMO's won't work as good as they currently do.
Role models ? Some kids really consider 'top' raiders role models ? I am stupified :).
Is it fun to do something in the most difficult way to have at least some kind of challenge?
I do not think so. I hope that GW2 will do better.

Loatheb is for sure only an isolated case, but we did not really need two people killin Loatheb to see that WOTLK is by far too easy to be enjoyable in the long run.

Many people, not only hardcore elite whatever players, have already done all that. What is left is somewhat odd achievements for doing the same in this or that or another retarded way.

This trend is not restricted to WoW, games stop being games: You cannot fail, you cannot lose. You are entitled to see all content, without breaking a sweat. You are a virtual hero by default. But is this really enjoyable?

I also see another problem, pure DDs are indeed less viable, tanks often come close or surpass them in terms of raw damage. Too much AoE gankage, everything too easy.

I loved WOTLK at first glance, but not even TBC ran so quickly out of steam! This is sad, I got bored with GW and AoC and WAR did not live up to the hype. But do not worry, I am also an avid reader of fantasy novels. Probably better than to endure this downtrend of the whole genre. Maybe this is fine and dandy for the masses, but I am an old MMO gamer and while I think there is nothing wrong with making a game more casual friendly, they have gone by far too far!!
I'm pretty sure the presumption of "role model" status is just hardcore hubris acting up again. As a 1/week raider, I'll just be happy to see all the content, with this expansion.

I suspect most people who want better gear will look to WoWHead, the armory, or imba, rather than inspect.
I think I get more incentive to raid by looking at loot lists on various websites than I do from seeing purple-wearing players in game. Even if these are the "super stars" of WoW (which I already find somewhat specious and silly in itself), it doesn't really mean a lot in the long run. Just because Joe Namath/Michael Jordan/Wayne Gretzky/Muhammad Ali/Babe Ruth have retired from their respective sports doesn't mean I should stop playing football, basketball, hockey, boxing or baseball.

I'm glad that players are trying to do crazy things and succeeding. It helps breathe life into a game that's often too bound by certain rules and restrictions.

I must agree, the "superstars" are not really important to the game. Most people do not really take them as examples to follow or actually care for them. Maybe sometimes they envy their gear or achievements, but high end guilds and players are not really important for their gaming experience at all.

My issue is that they dumb down things too much. Something is wrong when we can play in an almost vegetative state and still manage to win.
New raiders or players who have not raided very much can not play in an almost vegetative state in Naxx or most 5 man heroics. A group of raiding vets who have raided together for 3 years maybe, but not the majority of WoW players. Experienced raiders will just have to wait for the next raid or two to be released on live servers to see more of a challenge.

By the way, 10 man Naxx is apparently harder than 25 man Naxx, but I have only done 10 man so I can't say from personal experience. I thought it was about Karazhan difficulty honestly -- I think players are geared a little better right now than when people first started raiding Karazhan (badge rewards and heroics are better itemized and quicker to run), and quite a few players did 40-man Naxx, so it's perceived to be easier.

I don't think there are any rolemodels in WoW -- can anyone seriously name someone they consider a WoW rolemodel?
You’re right that there will always be best players, even if a bunch of top players leave. But I think sometimes players attract attention not just because they are best, but because they have a great personalities attached to them (either naturally, or pumped up through the media). Look at how ESPN tries to create personalities out of sports teams and stars to keep readers engaged. For example, when Michael Jordon quit, I think a lot of people lost interest in basketball, even though there was clearly another “best” basketball player after him.
I have never looked at anyone in any game I have ever played. I would find it sad if anyone actually did.
In Guild Wars there is this 'TV' for top level PvP games, called observer mode. After some of the top guilds eventually broke up or left the game I did feel a bit demoralized, as the new top guilds did not feel so much like the 'A Team' of yesteryear. However, I don't think that the 'leet' players leaving WoW would really demoralize anyone, since there's no observer mode (so any knowledge you have of top players is either rumor, seeing them stroke their e-peen in town, or (for the majority of people) none).

Additionally, the PvE players didn't care/didn't know when PvP players left. Maybe if there was an observer mode for top PvE players they might have cared though.
I'm 32yo. I don't need a role model... I don't care if someone gets downhill skiing championship title on a race track, making 130km/h, pushing it to the limit. I just like skiing on weekends together with my family, having fun.
It is clear that someone can ski faster wearing same equipment as me, but who cares, really? I'm sure many ppl think just like me.
Perhaps 'role model' is the wrong term here. I think Tobold is alluding to the "keeping up with the Joneses'" mentality; some players would see this cool weapon on another toon and think, "I want that too!". Not all players are driven by this, but there are those who are.
This game could do without those kinda role models... Whilst I don't judge a bunch of players that level to 80 in 3 days and clear first raid the same week... I certainly don't hold them in any high regard at all.

How are they role models? And when are we going to lose them!
This is the second time today I've seen evidence that the DPS role is redundant in WoW. I get the impression that all that's needed nowadays is a tank and a healer for pretty much everything. I've even seen it with my own eyes how a heroic group killed a boss where all the DPS were dead. Who were left standing? You guessed it, the healer and the tank. (On the other hand this could also be explained by the fact that the boss was low enough HP when the last DPS fell that the healer didn't go OOM while the tank was DPSing down the boss. But guessing from this post that was probably not what happened.) The optimal 10man raid nowadays is 7 tanks and 3 healers, and the optimal 25man raid is 17 tanks and 8 healers it seems... (Heroic: 4 tanks, 1 healer) I don't see how this will do anything with the tank shortage though...

That's before enrage timers of course. But then enrage timers are just a crutch to keep DPS in the game, it's easier to make an enrage timer than to give every class a healing and tanking tree. On the other hand the warrior in my guild somehow did 2k DPS on Patchwerk the other day, which is claimed to be the minimum for each DPS, so Blizzard really screwed up there. ;)
Is anyone but me amazed that a Holy Paladin could sustain healing for over 3 hours? That's pretty cool if you ask me.
Bleh to raiding in it's current state. Naxx feels like heroics in TBC felt once you had geared up with t6. Which is to say too easy and consequently too boring. Please don't think of me as an elitist that thinks casual players should be banned (I raid twice a week at most)...I just prefer to play content that present's a challenge.
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