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Thursday, March 26, 2009
50 million dollars are bad for you
Syncaine has an interesting theory about "WoW tourists": They ruin other games. Me, being a capitalist, I was under the impression that if 1 million WoW tourists buy your PvP game for $50 each, and then notice that your game isn't for them, you'll be left $50 million richer, which probably pays for most of your development cost. If you then have 300,000 dedicated "core" players left, you can afford to keep your servers running. Because with your development cost already paid, you just need to make more money than it costs to run the servers to be profitable. Even if you game is then a total flop, you can still take that money and use it to develop the next game, hopefully with better success.
But Syncaine says that those 50 million dollars are bad for you. Because the tourists cause login queues. Because after the tourists leave, you have to merge servers. Because the tourists complain on the game message boards that the new game isn't WoW. But most importantly because "the tourists interfere with the core player base, and that core is weakened because of them". He claims WAR would have had more core players, if they hadn't quit over tourist-caused issues.
Darkfall certainly tried to keep the tourists out. You needed to be pretty hardcore to even get into the game, first camping the website for days to get a copy of the game, then enduring login queues that last several hours. But Darkfall players are *still* complaining about tourists. Apparently if somebody tries out Darkfall and doesn't like it, it is WoW's fault. The possibility that somebody quits Darkfall for reasons that are not at all related to World of Warcraft isn't recognized by the fans. I think that one can like or dislike Darkfall completely independant of having played WoW. And I think that one can like or dislike Warhammer Online completely independant of having played WoW.
Yes, World of Warcraft might hurt other games, because it simply sets some industry standards for production quality. If you can get a Mercedes for the same price, why drive a Tato Nano? That does make life difficult for smaller companies, because they either need to make their games cheaper, or better, or so innovative that players are willing to overlook some flaws. Fortunately MMORPG players are good at overlooking flaws, as long as they are having fun.
So ultimately the WoW tourists are a great opportunity for other games. Not only because they bring in an initial big boatload of cash, which any company can certainly use in times like these. But because they give the game the *opportunity* to present itself to a larger audience, and maybe persuade some of them that a different style of gameplay could be fun too. Syncaine thinks that without WoW, WAR would have more than 300,000 subscribers now. I think that WoW increased the total overall market for MMORPG games, and in a world without WoW WAR wouldn't even have sold 300,000 copies, and would have less subscribers than it currently has. And I'm pretty sure that EA and Mythic aren't all that unhappy about those $50 million.
- posted by Tobold @ 10:51 AM Permanent Link
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I gave WAR 2 copies of the Collectors Edition and about 5 months of time (though the last two weren't used much). I still have my 2nd copy in shrink-wrap.
I don't think Mythic will complain.
I don't think Mythic will complain.
The problem is not within the supposed tourists group but within the mindset of syncaine who could not stop belittling the mentioned group and Ixobelle personally, in the end stating "nothing personal"...
I'd agree, if Mythic and EA got a large chunk of cash from big sales of the game itself then those WoW tourists waiting for Wrath were useful, but at the same time the perception of the game is that it "Failed" because the 750,000 people at the start dropped to 300,000 and servers have had to be merged. Would Mythic have taken 500,000 subscribers now and less sales?
Case in point, Conan did really well at the beginning with all the people looking for the next WoW but is now in many peoples mind on a downward spiral and will end up like other MMO's that bombed. It maybe a massively improved game but everyone thinks it is crap.
Case in point, Conan did really well at the beginning with all the people looking for the next WoW but is now in many peoples mind on a downward spiral and will end up like other MMO's that bombed. It maybe a massively improved game but everyone thinks it is crap.
I think a lot of these debates are caused by collisions between two groups of zealots, both of whom are blowing things way out of proportion.
Philosophy A: Everything that WoW does or has ever done was RIGHT.
Philosopny B: Everything that WoW does or has ever done was WRONG.
I can only dream of a world where game design is so black and white. Every game decision has to be judged in context. There's no such thing as a good or bad game mechanic, in a vacuum. Almost any feature there is could be a perfect for a particular game with particular goals and a particular audience.
People who think that removing leveling from games will automatically make them better are just as wrong as the people who think leveling is required for a game to be good. That's only one example. The same goes for any feature.
Making such broad assumptions is just a form of essentialism, and the thought process is the same as sexism, racism, and all those other much-more-important problems. I've been seeing so much of this lately, and it really isn't productive. We can't just assume that all of a game's features are bad ones even when the game fails, much less when it's successful.
Ultimately, though, I do agree with Syncaine in one respect, which is that a ton of players quitting and leaving your game in a lurch is a very bad thing. But those players only became "tourists" because they didn't end up staying. AOC and WAR were both marketed pretty heavily to the WoW demographic, most of whom ended up deciding to go back to WoW.
I do think it's a very smart thing for Aventurine to differentiate their game as much as possible from WoW, and specifically state which kind of players they aren't trying to attract. This hopefully will result in a playerbase that is smaller but more stable, and knows what they're getting themselves into.
Mike
mikedarga.blogspot.com
Philosophy A: Everything that WoW does or has ever done was RIGHT.
Philosopny B: Everything that WoW does or has ever done was WRONG.
I can only dream of a world where game design is so black and white. Every game decision has to be judged in context. There's no such thing as a good or bad game mechanic, in a vacuum. Almost any feature there is could be a perfect for a particular game with particular goals and a particular audience.
People who think that removing leveling from games will automatically make them better are just as wrong as the people who think leveling is required for a game to be good. That's only one example. The same goes for any feature.
Making such broad assumptions is just a form of essentialism, and the thought process is the same as sexism, racism, and all those other much-more-important problems. I've been seeing so much of this lately, and it really isn't productive. We can't just assume that all of a game's features are bad ones even when the game fails, much less when it's successful.
Ultimately, though, I do agree with Syncaine in one respect, which is that a ton of players quitting and leaving your game in a lurch is a very bad thing. But those players only became "tourists" because they didn't end up staying. AOC and WAR were both marketed pretty heavily to the WoW demographic, most of whom ended up deciding to go back to WoW.
I do think it's a very smart thing for Aventurine to differentiate their game as much as possible from WoW, and specifically state which kind of players they aren't trying to attract. This hopefully will result in a playerbase that is smaller but more stable, and knows what they're getting themselves into.
Mike
mikedarga.blogspot.com
# posted by 
: 26/3/09 12:15
: 26/3/09 12:15
Tobold, I think you've got it backwards. The publishers of a niche PVP game aren't going to fully fund the budget and then say "Oh, $50 million in bonus income". They're going to say "Oh, your game is designed not to appeal to the majority of WoW players, so you're not going to retain them? We're cutting your dev budget to match the new revenue projections." Somehow, I'd think that the drop in quality would bother the core players more than a few queues.
I think Mythic is a lot to blame for the loss of so many subscribers. WAR needed another 6 months of development in an open beta. Mythic CHOSE to launch the game at a time when they KNEW a great number of bored WoW players would pick it up prior to the launch of Wrath. They had to have known that a great many people that buy a new MMO don't stick around past the free month.
Mythic created the problem, not WoW players. Mythic COULD have sold only 300,000 boxes at launch and then slowly released a few more thousand every few days as servers start to spread out into higher tiers. Instead Mythic CHOSE to cash in quickly and sold 1 million + boxes. MYTHIC put their desire for profit ahead of the needs and concerns of the communities and players that they were trying to create.
Most players I know that left WAR left because of empty Open RvR, deserted public quests, and population imbalances that created 2-3 hour long queues for scenarios in higher tiers. I can't think of anyone, out of the dozen or so players I went into Warhammer with, that said, "It's not WoW, I quit!" ~Centuri
Mythic created the problem, not WoW players. Mythic COULD have sold only 300,000 boxes at launch and then slowly released a few more thousand every few days as servers start to spread out into higher tiers. Instead Mythic CHOSE to cash in quickly and sold 1 million + boxes. MYTHIC put their desire for profit ahead of the needs and concerns of the communities and players that they were trying to create.
Most players I know that left WAR left because of empty Open RvR, deserted public quests, and population imbalances that created 2-3 hour long queues for scenarios in higher tiers. I can't think of anyone, out of the dozen or so players I went into Warhammer with, that said, "It's not WoW, I quit!" ~Centuri
# posted by : 26/3/09 14:01
: 26/3/09 14:01
Case in point, Conan did really well at the beginning with all the people looking for the next WoW but is now in many peoples mind on a downward spiral and will end up like other MMO's that bombed. It maybe a massively improved game but everyone thinks it is crap.
That's because when everyone forked over their $50 and played it they found out it was crap. That situation is going to happen if, at launch, your game is crap. So, yeah, maybe the perception doesn't match reality anymore, but this has nothing to do with tourists, it has to do with people who wanted to play for real not wanting to play anymore.
WAR was a little less cut and dry which I can speak too because I'm technically one of the 'WoW tourists' that left the game in a lurch. I played it for the free month, decided it was fun, but not really the bee's knees, and then I went and played FFXI for a bit. Am I a bad person? I gave them my money, and I gave it a shot. It wasn't bad, but it didn't really hook me. Should I have stuck out another six months so I could inflate their projections?
I can't figure out the logic behind the 'blaming the victim' mentality of this. I purchased a product and I stopped using a product, I'm suddenly a bad person ruining capitalism? If that $50M is going to ruin their company they can ship my check back and delete my account, no questions asked. Because I don't want to hurt their game anymore.
They're going to say "Oh, your game is designed not to appeal to the majority of WoW players, so you're not going to retain them? We're cutting your dev budget to match the new revenue projections."
Those revenue projections would be exactly the same from start to end if tourists never visited the game in the first place. Except probably a little bit better because there's isn't a 'Development Costs - $20M' line item on the game's balance sheet anymore.
That's because when everyone forked over their $50 and played it they found out it was crap. That situation is going to happen if, at launch, your game is crap. So, yeah, maybe the perception doesn't match reality anymore, but this has nothing to do with tourists, it has to do with people who wanted to play for real not wanting to play anymore.
WAR was a little less cut and dry which I can speak too because I'm technically one of the 'WoW tourists' that left the game in a lurch. I played it for the free month, decided it was fun, but not really the bee's knees, and then I went and played FFXI for a bit. Am I a bad person? I gave them my money, and I gave it a shot. It wasn't bad, but it didn't really hook me. Should I have stuck out another six months so I could inflate their projections?
I can't figure out the logic behind the 'blaming the victim' mentality of this. I purchased a product and I stopped using a product, I'm suddenly a bad person ruining capitalism? If that $50M is going to ruin their company they can ship my check back and delete my account, no questions asked. Because I don't want to hurt their game anymore.
They're going to say "Oh, your game is designed not to appeal to the majority of WoW players, so you're not going to retain them? We're cutting your dev budget to match the new revenue projections."
Those revenue projections would be exactly the same from start to end if tourists never visited the game in the first place. Except probably a little bit better because there's isn't a 'Development Costs - $20M' line item on the game's balance sheet anymore.
Actually I agree with that the tourists are a disaster. I'll write a full post about it in some days, because I don't want to write a TL:DR comment. Just a hint: Blizzard bashed the arena win-traders and deleted 500K botter accounts exactly when WAR was started. I think they wanted to unleash the "tourists" to WAR to kill it.
It seems to be a common pattern for some people to bash their old MMO after moving on to a new, or simply other title. In the same way that others just bash what they do not understand or what is simply different to what they enjoy. And I think it is time to open trollspot.com or wordtroll.com and move some of those "blogs" over there. ;)
You have been around long enough to know half of what you wrote above is garbage. You know very well that not even half the box price of a game goes back into the dev pool, you know very well the MMO business model revolves around player retention and longevity, not flash-in-the-pan burst sales, and you know very well an MMO's word of mouth is its most important asset. I know you are trying to make a point, but at least use the knowledge you yourself have when trying to make it. WoW is not the Mercedes of the industry, its the Big Mac. 100 billion sold says nothing about it's quality, it's a reflection of pop culture.
Which is more profitable in the long run Tobold, 1.2m boxes and 300k subs with the market thinking you 'failed', or 700k boxes and 400k subs with positive buzz? (Hint: EVE) Because you know very well that pre-WoW MMOs had 300k+ subs, so even pre-2004 the market was AT LEAST that big. Even without WoW, it would have only grown since then. Have you completely forgotten about AoC? How did the tourist effect work out for that game? Why has WAR taken such a radical turn in development since beta, when DAoC players started commenting on how WAR had far too much of a WoW influence. How have the WoW pieces worked out in WAR, compared the the DAoC pieces? Which one is the focus now, generating positive buzz (despite your 'friend' still sitting in scenario queues alone)?
It's not Blizzard magical 'standard of quality' (how did the work out for WG, or the last patch, or class balance/mechanics since 2004?) that is the problem. They actually do the industry a favor with their rapid pace of content delivery. Every other developer looks like a miracle worked for delivering new content for free compared to Bliz. Your idea that the tourists are this great opportunity for other games is the problem. They don't like MMO games. They like WoW. If the game is not WoW, they will leave, regardless of its quality. How many MMOs have to launch before that sinks in?
"and in a world without WoW WAR wouldn't even have sold 300,000 copies"
That alone is troll worthy and you know it. At least bring a little more to the table if you are going to try and argue that tourists are good for the industry, at least make it interesting.
Which is more profitable in the long run Tobold, 1.2m boxes and 300k subs with the market thinking you 'failed', or 700k boxes and 400k subs with positive buzz? (Hint: EVE) Because you know very well that pre-WoW MMOs had 300k+ subs, so even pre-2004 the market was AT LEAST that big. Even without WoW, it would have only grown since then. Have you completely forgotten about AoC? How did the tourist effect work out for that game? Why has WAR taken such a radical turn in development since beta, when DAoC players started commenting on how WAR had far too much of a WoW influence. How have the WoW pieces worked out in WAR, compared the the DAoC pieces? Which one is the focus now, generating positive buzz (despite your 'friend' still sitting in scenario queues alone)?
It's not Blizzard magical 'standard of quality' (how did the work out for WG, or the last patch, or class balance/mechanics since 2004?) that is the problem. They actually do the industry a favor with their rapid pace of content delivery. Every other developer looks like a miracle worked for delivering new content for free compared to Bliz. Your idea that the tourists are this great opportunity for other games is the problem. They don't like MMO games. They like WoW. If the game is not WoW, they will leave, regardless of its quality. How many MMOs have to launch before that sinks in?
"and in a world without WoW WAR wouldn't even have sold 300,000 copies"
That alone is troll worthy and you know it. At least bring a little more to the table if you are going to try and argue that tourists are good for the industry, at least make it interesting.
# posted by : 26/3/09 15:01
: 26/3/09 15:01
I don't think you understood Syncaine point exactly, Tobold. This is not a mere case of numbers and you will make a mistake if you only look at those. Even if you say you are a capitalist I would argue that the blind pursue of profit and number crunching is what got the world in this mess.
Of course is better for Mythic to have 50 million dollars in the bank than in people's pockets, but that is short term vision. The fact most players quit WAR for the simple reason that it's not WoW which by itself is a reson as good as any other. But the problem is that those players god knows why felt the need of bashing the game in the Interwebz by blowing problems out of proportion, ignoring the speed of Mythic corrections and so on. They still bash the game although most of the issues they point out are long solved.
That hurts sales and if I only read the WAR bashing blogs I would think twice before subscribing. I read more blogs than that and decided to give it a go and i am enjoying myself very, very much. Of course the game has problems but those aren't game breaking at all. To be fair, at least in the server I play, [EU]Karak-Norn there's a issue with lag on T4 but even that is perfectly manageable. People just have to resub or download the trial and give it a shot! You'll be surprised unless you have a toaster disguised as a pc.
Bottom line is, 50 mil are good. But how much harm to the game was done by the vocal "minority" in a universe of 700000 players? Among many "i didn't liked it"or "i prefer wow" there were unfair accusations, blatant lies or issues that were long solved. I think that Mythink would gladly trade half those box sells for a bigger user retention which would be perceived as a success rather than the current mood which is a failure.
Of course is better for Mythic to have 50 million dollars in the bank than in people's pockets, but that is short term vision. The fact most players quit WAR for the simple reason that it's not WoW which by itself is a reson as good as any other. But the problem is that those players god knows why felt the need of bashing the game in the Interwebz by blowing problems out of proportion, ignoring the speed of Mythic corrections and so on. They still bash the game although most of the issues they point out are long solved.
That hurts sales and if I only read the WAR bashing blogs I would think twice before subscribing. I read more blogs than that and decided to give it a go and i am enjoying myself very, very much. Of course the game has problems but those aren't game breaking at all. To be fair, at least in the server I play, [EU]Karak-Norn there's a issue with lag on T4 but even that is perfectly manageable. People just have to resub or download the trial and give it a shot! You'll be surprised unless you have a toaster disguised as a pc.
Bottom line is, 50 mil are good. But how much harm to the game was done by the vocal "minority" in a universe of 700000 players? Among many "i didn't liked it"or "i prefer wow" there were unfair accusations, blatant lies or issues that were long solved. I think that Mythink would gladly trade half those box sells for a bigger user retention which would be perceived as a success rather than the current mood which is a failure.
I think the problem with WoW tourists is just that they think that if a game doesn't get at least 1 million subs its failed and must suck terribly which sets the reputation for the game whether it really deserves it or not.
AoC failed because it was technically unsound, half the classes were borked, the "press three buttons for each melee attack" conceit wore thin by lvl 50, and none of the end game worked. Trying to pin AoC's death on WoW tourists is a bit too far. Last I heard they entirely deleted an entire craft from the game because they just couldn't get it to work right!
And really I think WAR is pretty much right where it ought to be; struggling to get to stability. The real brilliance of Darkfall is putting the long term health of the game before bagging a lot of fast cash. I don't know if a big game publisher will have the discipline to take that approach.
AoC failed because it was technically unsound, half the classes were borked, the "press three buttons for each melee attack" conceit wore thin by lvl 50, and none of the end game worked. Trying to pin AoC's death on WoW tourists is a bit too far. Last I heard they entirely deleted an entire craft from the game because they just couldn't get it to work right!
And really I think WAR is pretty much right where it ought to be; struggling to get to stability. The real brilliance of Darkfall is putting the long term health of the game before bagging a lot of fast cash. I don't know if a big game publisher will have the discipline to take that approach.
I read your post yesterday, Syncaine. I also followed Ixobelle's thoughts on Darkfall. And now Tobald's post here.
Honestly, Tobald has a point, Ixo has a point, and you also have a point. I certainly see some validity in EVERY thought and can see why people have different perspectives on it. But one thing that you did that lost me and somewhat invalidated your thoughts, was that you failed to accept that it is OK for everyone to have a different thought processes and opinions. (Now, it's certainly your blog and you are more than entitled to write as you wish).
Having different thoughts on something doesn't make someone's opinion wrong...just different. You used your venue to belittle someone for having different ideas and thoughts than you, which ultimately speaks for your personality to an extent...but also turned me off as a reader. Had you maybe made an objective post about how MMO Tourists have negative effects on new MMO's instead of ranting about what an idiot you thought Ixo and "his type" were, your post would have had more validity, at least in my eyes. But honestly, when I read it I just thought...man here is one angry guy that wants to bash someone for not having the same mindset as he does. I can't imagine that was your intent.
Eleanor Roosevelt once said "Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people."
Honestly, Tobald has a point, Ixo has a point, and you also have a point. I certainly see some validity in EVERY thought and can see why people have different perspectives on it. But one thing that you did that lost me and somewhat invalidated your thoughts, was that you failed to accept that it is OK for everyone to have a different thought processes and opinions. (Now, it's certainly your blog and you are more than entitled to write as you wish).
Having different thoughts on something doesn't make someone's opinion wrong...just different. You used your venue to belittle someone for having different ideas and thoughts than you, which ultimately speaks for your personality to an extent...but also turned me off as a reader. Had you maybe made an objective post about how MMO Tourists have negative effects on new MMO's instead of ranting about what an idiot you thought Ixo and "his type" were, your post would have had more validity, at least in my eyes. But honestly, when I read it I just thought...man here is one angry guy that wants to bash someone for not having the same mindset as he does. I can't imagine that was your intent.
Eleanor Roosevelt once said "Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people."
# posted by : 26/3/09 15:51
: 26/3/09 15:51
I think a little to much credit is given to WoW for expanding the market. It certainly helped but I believe other factors had a large contribution too. The biggest being the proliferation of internet access in every home with a computer followed by higher speed access by more and more. When UO came out were still a lot of people that had internet at work but nothing at home. Of those with interent at home I would guess a majority were dial up. This was the same time AOL was adding 100k of people a month to their dialup service. When EQ came out the dialup users were converting to high speed access. By the time WoW came out AOL dialup customer numbers were falling hard.
Once you are paying $40 a month for high speed internet access it is not too hard of a financial decision to add $15 for a game subscription that works better on your high speed interent.
Once you are paying $40 a month for high speed internet access it is not too hard of a financial decision to add $15 for a game subscription that works better on your high speed interent.
# posted by : 26/3/09 16:17
: 26/3/09 16:17
The only problem here is that these games EXPECTED to cater to the numbers and failed to hold them. Warhammer had to merge and shut down servers simply because they had too many, they thought the hype would draw in the players (and it did) and they thought the game was awesome enough to keep the players (it wasn't). It does not matter at all where the players came form or where they went to, Warhammer simply did not impress the numbers it intended to serve.
This WoW Tourist nonsense is just an attempt to place blame somewhere tangible.
This WoW Tourist nonsense is just an attempt to place blame somewhere tangible.
Looks like some bitter blogger still believes that blaming the customers for not liking the product enough is somehow a sound business approach. It's the ultimate form of entitlement: everything is owed to you, and everyone else is to blame.
They say blogging is therapeutic. Looks like Syncaine may need therapy because of blogging instead.
They say blogging is therapeutic. Looks like Syncaine may need therapy because of blogging instead.
I think Mythic is a lot to blame for the loss of so many subscribers. WAR needed another 6 months of development in an open beta. Mythic CHOSE to launch the game at a time when they KNEW a great number of bored WoW players would pick it up prior to the launch of Wrath. They had to have known that a great many people that buy a new MMO don't stick around past the free month.
Mythic created the problem, not WoW players. Mythic COULD have sold only 300,000 boxes at launch and then slowly released a few more thousand every few days as servers start to spread out into higher tiers. Instead Mythic CHOSE to cash in quickly and sold 1 million + boxes. MYTHIC put their desire for profit ahead of the needs and concerns of the communities and players that they were trying to create.
Most players I know that left WAR left because of empty Open RvR, deserted public quests, and population imbalances that created 2-3 hour long queues for scenarios in higher tiers. I can't think of anyone, out of the dozen or so players I went into Warhammer with, that said, "It's not WoW, I quit!" ~Centuri
I want to reemphasize this guy's post. What if Mythic had waited and kept fine-tuning their product? What if they chose to release the game in the "dead zone" between when WotLK came out and Ulduar, instead of pushing it into the holiday rush season and just a month+ before the expansion's release? Or market the game towards the pre-WoW fantasy-MMO demographic instead of the post-WoW mass market, and let word of mouth spread to the WoWers over time? I've never played WAR and probably won't ever, but Mythic and Electronic Arts definitely chose short-term gains over other possible objectives. I have a feeling that EA budgeted the game with a greedy eye towards WoW's huge subscriber base, but chickened out and decided to recoup its development costs and make a quick profit rather than design something with more sustainability and growth-potential.
The area where Syncaine is wrong though is that "WoW tourists" aren't just looking for WoW, they're looking for something 'better' than WoW, in terms of features, usability, entertainment, and content. That's hard to do in light of the huge add-on crowd for WoW and the steady trickle of content from Blizzard piled on top of an already fairly polished game. Syncaine's right that trapping this huge audience is difficult, and it might be smarter to tailor games towards small slices of the WoW pie.
Mythic created the problem, not WoW players. Mythic COULD have sold only 300,000 boxes at launch and then slowly released a few more thousand every few days as servers start to spread out into higher tiers. Instead Mythic CHOSE to cash in quickly and sold 1 million + boxes. MYTHIC put their desire for profit ahead of the needs and concerns of the communities and players that they were trying to create.
Most players I know that left WAR left because of empty Open RvR, deserted public quests, and population imbalances that created 2-3 hour long queues for scenarios in higher tiers. I can't think of anyone, out of the dozen or so players I went into Warhammer with, that said, "It's not WoW, I quit!" ~Centuri
I want to reemphasize this guy's post. What if Mythic had waited and kept fine-tuning their product? What if they chose to release the game in the "dead zone" between when WotLK came out and Ulduar, instead of pushing it into the holiday rush season and just a month+ before the expansion's release? Or market the game towards the pre-WoW fantasy-MMO demographic instead of the post-WoW mass market, and let word of mouth spread to the WoWers over time? I've never played WAR and probably won't ever, but Mythic and Electronic Arts definitely chose short-term gains over other possible objectives. I have a feeling that EA budgeted the game with a greedy eye towards WoW's huge subscriber base, but chickened out and decided to recoup its development costs and make a quick profit rather than design something with more sustainability and growth-potential.
The area where Syncaine is wrong though is that "WoW tourists" aren't just looking for WoW, they're looking for something 'better' than WoW, in terms of features, usability, entertainment, and content. That's hard to do in light of the huge add-on crowd for WoW and the steady trickle of content from Blizzard piled on top of an already fairly polished game. Syncaine's right that trapping this huge audience is difficult, and it might be smarter to tailor games towards small slices of the WoW pie.
"Syncaine thinks that without WoW, WAR would have more than 300,000 subscribers now"
Well that's true in a sense. It's a solid game (about as good as LOTRO), so if WOW weren't around to compare it with, WAR would look pretty good.
Where I disagree with Syncaine is that "WOW tourists" are a problem. I was one of them- I helped beta test it and bought a box when it came out, despite the SNAFU launch. Now the game wasn't for me, but by playing it I could tell that some of my friends would like it. They're still playing now because of that recommendation. So they didn't get my subscription, but they did get some as a result of my tourism.
If I hadn't done that and provided the positive word of mouth, Mythic may well have lost out on their custom.
Well that's true in a sense. It's a solid game (about as good as LOTRO), so if WOW weren't around to compare it with, WAR would look pretty good.
Where I disagree with Syncaine is that "WOW tourists" are a problem. I was one of them- I helped beta test it and bought a box when it came out, despite the SNAFU launch. Now the game wasn't for me, but by playing it I could tell that some of my friends would like it. They're still playing now because of that recommendation. So they didn't get my subscription, but they did get some as a result of my tourism.
If I hadn't done that and provided the positive word of mouth, Mythic may well have lost out on their custom.
@ syncaine: "Which is more profitable in the long run Tobold, 1.2m boxes and 300k subs with the market thinking you 'failed', or 700k boxes and 400k subs with positive buzz? (Hint: EVE)"
Yes, this
It hasn't been officially announced, but I strongly suspect that EVE now has more players than WAR, as well as a better reputation. You can check my numbers and let me know if I'm wrong.
Yes, this
It hasn't been officially announced, but I strongly suspect that EVE now has more players than WAR, as well as a better reputation. You can check my numbers and let me know if I'm wrong.
# posted by : 26/3/09 19:20
: 26/3/09 19:20
Since when do corporations care about long-term profitability? Last time I checked, you have to report to your shareholders on a quarterly basis. Can you imagine the managers at EA telling their board, "We have this great plan for Warhammer Online. We're not going to let anyone who played World of Warcraft in. They're tourists, and they'll just mess things up for our core audience. Now, we're going to make a lot less money in the short-term, but don't worry, we'll get them in the long run." Those guys would last about as long as the guy in the commercial who suggests not bringing Bud Light to every meeting. With all due respect, I just don't see any large corporation turning down 25 million dollars up-front in hopes of higher customer retention down the line.
This is the guy that says I should be playing WAR now, because it is better than WOW was four years ago. If WAR offered me something WOW didn't, I might still playing WAR and I am not referring to technical issues.
This is a great topic- I may write my own snippit on it soon (don't worry Tobold, my paltry blog will not steal your thunder :)). It's too late however to do so right now, but I wanted to throw this out there:
Earendiljade. I love you. When we start attacking ideas, behaviors, and others instead of deliberating to the contrary we harm our reputation.
Earendiljade. I love you. When we start attacking ideas, behaviors, and others instead of deliberating to the contrary we harm our reputation.
# posted by : 27/3/09 06:49
: 27/3/09 06:49
I may not like the gigantic amount of manly e-peen waving that goes on with Darkfall and Syncaine, but I'm agreeing with him more and more about 'WoW tourists'.
The problem is that WoW, since it became the new big thing, has somehow attracted a bunch of shallow, whiny, idiots with a staggering sense of entitlement. They look at those huge numbers of subscribers that Blizzard is touting and they go: "I'm important! They're making the game for special and unique people like me!" and suddenly think they're game designers. They band together on the forums in this pitchfork wielding mass of chatspeak and egos, demanding changes to THEIR game. So Blizzard pets their little retarded darlings on the head and does its best to keep the little idiots entertained, even if that means handing out free virtual loot.
So they all go tootling off to try out this NEW game that everyone is talking about and they bring along their shallow, opinionated little egos. They try the new game out and then suddenly get utterly stumped by arcane concepts like 'UIS THAT ARE DIFFERENT TO WOW!!! OMG!!" and gameplay that isn't designed to reward every single mouseclick. I mean it's no secret that your average wow player despises challenge. http://www.wowinsider.com/2009/03/25/two-mods-for-thwarting-the-alchemists-apprentice/ Most would install mods to play the entire game for them if they could.
So now they're faced by this horrible game that isn't just handing out epic lewt when they click the mouse, requires you to think now and then and they go and write blog posts, forum posts and letters to their councilors and the rest of the PTA. They tell everyone what a horrible, horrible game it is and how they should never try it.
The developers, ever chasing their bottom line suddenly see all this potentially lost revenue and decide that their game is a failure and we really need to make it 'MORE LIKE WOW!' (Seriously, do you KNOW how many times my boss or another designer has said to me "We need to make our game more like WoW with regard to X"?)
...and a few months down the line we end up with another gutted, mediocre, wow clone which fades into obscurity as the brain dead masses go back to humping their shot rotation macros in WoW.
Yes, I hate WoW tourists too.
The problem is that WoW, since it became the new big thing, has somehow attracted a bunch of shallow, whiny, idiots with a staggering sense of entitlement. They look at those huge numbers of subscribers that Blizzard is touting and they go: "I'm important! They're making the game for special and unique people like me!" and suddenly think they're game designers. They band together on the forums in this pitchfork wielding mass of chatspeak and egos, demanding changes to THEIR game. So Blizzard pets their little retarded darlings on the head and does its best to keep the little idiots entertained, even if that means handing out free virtual loot.
So they all go tootling off to try out this NEW game that everyone is talking about and they bring along their shallow, opinionated little egos. They try the new game out and then suddenly get utterly stumped by arcane concepts like 'UIS THAT ARE DIFFERENT TO WOW!!! OMG!!" and gameplay that isn't designed to reward every single mouseclick. I mean it's no secret that your average wow player despises challenge. http://www.wowinsider.com/2009/03/25/two-mods-for-thwarting-the-alchemists-apprentice/ Most would install mods to play the entire game for them if they could.
So now they're faced by this horrible game that isn't just handing out epic lewt when they click the mouse, requires you to think now and then and they go and write blog posts, forum posts and letters to their councilors and the rest of the PTA. They tell everyone what a horrible, horrible game it is and how they should never try it.
The developers, ever chasing their bottom line suddenly see all this potentially lost revenue and decide that their game is a failure and we really need to make it 'MORE LIKE WOW!' (Seriously, do you KNOW how many times my boss or another designer has said to me "We need to make our game more like WoW with regard to X"?)
...and a few months down the line we end up with another gutted, mediocre, wow clone which fades into obscurity as the brain dead masses go back to humping their shot rotation macros in WoW.
Yes, I hate WoW tourists too.
But where is the evidence that these mythical WoW tourists even exist? If a player, having played WoW before, starts Age of Conan or Warhammer Online, finds the game not good enough, and quits, the AoC and WAR fans will automatically label him a WoW tourist and presume he only quit because the new game isn't WoW. Where is the proof? We can assume that these players WANTED something different, otherwise they wouldn't have shelled out $50 for a new game. And we know they didn't like the new game, because they quit. But whether they quit because the new game was objectively worse, whether they quit because the different playstyle didn't suit them, or whether they quit because they realized there wasn't another WoW in the box is unknown. And I find the latter hard to believe.
The good Rev has a valid point says I. I have some friends that I've tried to get into other MMOs and quite often they are put off by its design. They will say it's "poorly designed" or "just plain stupid" when they're talking about a game mechanic that is just something that sets the game apart. There's disliking something, that's fine, and then there's telling everyone that their game of choice is bad/stupid/poorly designed just because it isn't what you like. While not all WoW players partaking in tourism may be bad, the vocal ones that criticize the game for not being WoW-like are the problem.
Regardless of the age of players/forum writers/bloggers, on the internet we are all peers, and what our peers generally think of something has a great influence on our opinions whether we want it to or not. If we join a new MMO and there's constantly twenty to thirty other people around us we could play with, and suddenly no one wants to play the game and they just use the in-game chat as a Bash-This-Game Chatroom then it will very negatively affect the gameplay. I tried to play WAR the other day and people would not stop talking about "how much it sucked." The sense of community is ruined by trolling, and those WoW tourists that become trolls are the problem.
Regardless of the age of players/forum writers/bloggers, on the internet we are all peers, and what our peers generally think of something has a great influence on our opinions whether we want it to or not. If we join a new MMO and there's constantly twenty to thirty other people around us we could play with, and suddenly no one wants to play the game and they just use the in-game chat as a Bash-This-Game Chatroom then it will very negatively affect the gameplay. I tried to play WAR the other day and people would not stop talking about "how much it sucked." The sense of community is ruined by trolling, and those WoW tourists that become trolls are the problem.
# posted by : 27/3/09 14:46
: 27/3/09 14:46
I agree with Syncaine to a degree. When WAR launched alot of us that had been following the game and Beta testing were shouting at Mythic to not open so many servers. That the surge of players would die down. We weren't a large group but we were there.
The VAST majority of people wanted their servers open NOW and didn't want to wait for queues. Now look what Darkfall is doing, they are saying deal with the queues. If Mythic had done the same I think WAR would be in a better place. It's not that the WoW tourists killed WAR, it's that Mythic was making their decissions based on the WoW tourist staying. That is what ultimately killed WAR.
Well that and the game running like crap for the first 4 months.
"Deleted and reposted for spelling"
The VAST majority of people wanted their servers open NOW and didn't want to wait for queues. Now look what Darkfall is doing, they are saying deal with the queues. If Mythic had done the same I think WAR would be in a better place. It's not that the WoW tourists killed WAR, it's that Mythic was making their decissions based on the WoW tourist staying. That is what ultimately killed WAR.
Well that and the game running like crap for the first 4 months.
"Deleted and reposted for spelling"
"But whether they quit because the new game was objectively worse.."
Than what? What game is the comparison for a wow-player? You think a gamer only experienced with WoW, looks at a new MMO and compares it to Fallout 3?
"whether they quit because the different playstyle didn't suit them.."
Compared to what? What game is the comparison? You think a gamer only experienced with WoW, looks at a new MMO and compares its gameplay to Super Mario?
"or whether they quit because they realized there wasn't another WoW in the box is unknown."
If your only point of comparison is World of Warcraft and you leave for any of the reasons you stated.. does it take a genious to figure it out?
I hate the term "wow tourists" but there is a shred of truth to it.
Halo fans dont go play Killzone and judge it on its own merits. They judge it against Halo. Sonic fans dont go play Mario and judge it based on Syndicate Wars. They use the closest familiar comparison.
WoW fans looking for a new game inevitably compare it to WoW. You only need to look at the chat from any level 1 in the start area of any game.I beta'd LoTR and the start zones were FILLED with "this isnt wow" comments. War was the same.. as are many other MMO's.
That initial word of mouth is bad for a new MMO. Of a guild of over 150 players, only one (myself) even subbed to War thanks to "its a wow ripoff and its not as good.. PvE is shit" reviews trickling through the internet from WoW players that wanted WoW with newer graphics. "all the gear looks the same" from itemgrinders happy to treadmill away for months for +2 to some stat or other on the character sheet.
I recently got 3 people to try the trial. 2 tried for one night in PvE when I wasnt there and quit, saying "same old same old". The one remaining came and did a ton of RvR with me, then some scens.. and then we did a tour of the PQ's. His opinion? Subscribing to the game.
WoW tourists (in wars case) tried to go into it and play it as they would in WoW. Straight to PvE content to try and solo a PQ or something. I saw it many times on my server and witnessed triallers doing it too.
War is not that game, its group PvP. The action is in the RvR areas with big groups. Not solo tucked away grinding mobs in the corner of the map. But players stuck on "end game" mentality plugged away bypassing all the fun to be had in t1/t2/t3 mindlessly grinding scens or whatever whilst moaning about it.
Heres a tip, how about taking your time and enjoying the games content at the Tier you are in? The game starts at level 1. As much fun can be had in T1 as in any tier.. unless you only ever played wow and have "ENDGAME STARTS AT LEVEL CAP" etched into your brain.
Than what? What game is the comparison for a wow-player? You think a gamer only experienced with WoW, looks at a new MMO and compares it to Fallout 3?
"whether they quit because the different playstyle didn't suit them.."
Compared to what? What game is the comparison? You think a gamer only experienced with WoW, looks at a new MMO and compares its gameplay to Super Mario?
"or whether they quit because they realized there wasn't another WoW in the box is unknown."
If your only point of comparison is World of Warcraft and you leave for any of the reasons you stated.. does it take a genious to figure it out?
I hate the term "wow tourists" but there is a shred of truth to it.
Halo fans dont go play Killzone and judge it on its own merits. They judge it against Halo. Sonic fans dont go play Mario and judge it based on Syndicate Wars. They use the closest familiar comparison.
WoW fans looking for a new game inevitably compare it to WoW. You only need to look at the chat from any level 1 in the start area of any game.I beta'd LoTR and the start zones were FILLED with "this isnt wow" comments. War was the same.. as are many other MMO's.
That initial word of mouth is bad for a new MMO. Of a guild of over 150 players, only one (myself) even subbed to War thanks to "its a wow ripoff and its not as good.. PvE is shit" reviews trickling through the internet from WoW players that wanted WoW with newer graphics. "all the gear looks the same" from itemgrinders happy to treadmill away for months for +2 to some stat or other on the character sheet.
I recently got 3 people to try the trial. 2 tried for one night in PvE when I wasnt there and quit, saying "same old same old". The one remaining came and did a ton of RvR with me, then some scens.. and then we did a tour of the PQ's. His opinion? Subscribing to the game.
WoW tourists (in wars case) tried to go into it and play it as they would in WoW. Straight to PvE content to try and solo a PQ or something. I saw it many times on my server and witnessed triallers doing it too.
War is not that game, its group PvP. The action is in the RvR areas with big groups. Not solo tucked away grinding mobs in the corner of the map. But players stuck on "end game" mentality plugged away bypassing all the fun to be had in t1/t2/t3 mindlessly grinding scens or whatever whilst moaning about it.
Heres a tip, how about taking your time and enjoying the games content at the Tier you are in? The game starts at level 1. As much fun can be had in T1 as in any tier.. unless you only ever played wow and have "ENDGAME STARTS AT LEVEL CAP" etched into your brain.
WoW Tourists is a misnomer, and it misses the point.
When WoW first came out, lots of people from EQ hated it. They made their opinions known, and left. I suppose Syncaine would call them "EQ Tourists". Lots of people from DAOC tried WoW and left. I guess those were "DAOC Tourists". There were "AC Tourists", and "City of Heroes Tourists, etc.
The truth is, all that's happening is that people from game A try game B, hate it, and trash it. Shocking! But, when has it ever been different? I dare someone to make a Space PvP game, and then count the "EvE Tourists". It's a ridiculous pejorative used because someone criticized your favorite game.
Are there a lot of "WoW Tourists"? Of course, given the size of WoW. But the phenomenon has very little to do with WoW players being any different than any other group of committed gamers.
When WoW first came out, lots of people from EQ hated it. They made their opinions known, and left. I suppose Syncaine would call them "EQ Tourists". Lots of people from DAOC tried WoW and left. I guess those were "DAOC Tourists". There were "AC Tourists", and "City of Heroes Tourists, etc.
The truth is, all that's happening is that people from game A try game B, hate it, and trash it. Shocking! But, when has it ever been different? I dare someone to make a Space PvP game, and then count the "EvE Tourists". It's a ridiculous pejorative used because someone criticized your favorite game.
Are there a lot of "WoW Tourists"? Of course, given the size of WoW. But the phenomenon has very little to do with WoW players being any different than any other group of committed gamers.
Actually these games welcome 'tourists' for their money because they do not cause much harm to the 'core' community?
I imagine in a pvp game, M&S wouldn't stand a chance to pretend being anything else: impact pvp would impose upon him the marks of the 'loser' in the form of frequent deaths, xp penalties, lack of gear.. perhaps not even being able to level at all (if xp loss is a feature of death).
Let's not even talk about games with more or less perma-death implemented... What could the 'nabs' possibly do in such games other than donate money and quit in frustration?
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I imagine in a pvp game, M&S wouldn't stand a chance to pretend being anything else: impact pvp would impose upon him the marks of the 'loser' in the form of frequent deaths, xp penalties, lack of gear.. perhaps not even being able to level at all (if xp loss is a feature of death).
Let's not even talk about games with more or less perma-death implemented... What could the 'nabs' possibly do in such games other than donate money and quit in frustration?
# posted by : 31/3/09 02:15
: 31/3/09 02:15<< Home
