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Wednesday, March 11, 2009
Goblin raiding
While I don't like his philosophy, I do have to admit that the Greedy Goblin is often entertaining, bringing new ideas to an old game. His latest adventure is goblin raiding, buying a raid spot for 4k gold from a hardcore guild, plus paying 1k each for the 7 epics that farm run netted him. So one evening and 11k gold later Gevlon now has better gear than my priest, who is raiding for months now. Of course the lessons him and me draw from that are radically different.
Gevlon thinks he has found the most efficient way to play WoW, or as he says "the fastest and most cost effective way of reaching content". Well, he thinks that "anyone" can make the "pitiful" amount of 2k gold per hour, which obviously isn't true. Gevlon is making money by what is called arbitration, and the profits of that depend on how many people do it. The more good businessmen are on a server, the less the amount of money you can make simply by using the auction house. But even if you make only 300 gold an hour with farming or doing dailies, paying 11K for a 7 Naxx25 bop epics is probably still faster than raiding for months until your less-than-hardcore guild starts getting Naxx25 loot.
But that assumes that "reaching content" and getting the best epics is the ultimate goal of World of Warcraft. So how about the following, completely hypothetical, offer from Blizzard: For just $200 you can make a special account with a single character of your choice, in God mode, for a single day. As you are invincible, you will be able to solo all the raid dungeons you want during that day, and come out with all the best epics in the game. At the end of the day you get a nice screenshot of your character, and a .pdf file listing all your epics, but the character itself is deleted and the account cancelled. So for the cost of just about 1 year of WoW, you'll reach the highest level of content and epics in a day that some other people have spent 4 years and on average $800 on. Good deal, or isn't it?
No, it isn't. I don't think many people would take that deal and pay those $200. Because reaching content and getting epics by itself is worth nothing. We play for various reasons, but one reason is simply to spend time having fun. Pressing the "I win" button and bypassing all the game means you'd lose out on thousands of hours of entertainment, which are far more valuable than some purple pixels. And where the value of the purple pixels comes in is them being the reward for a challenge you have overcome. Even Gevlon was proud that he didn't place that badly on the healing meter in spite of having had bad gear at the start, being just 0.4% of total healing behind the other healing druid, and ahead of the best healing priest. But fact is that there was no challenge, and if Gevlon had done absolutely nothing, the raid would still have succeeded, and he would still have gotten the same epics. The only challenge he had to overcome was finding a bored hardcore guild willing to sell raid slots and epics. And, although Gevlon doesn't believe in it, there is also value in social contacts. Finally beating that boss in a group of guild mates and friends is a lot more satisfying for most of us than beating that boss with the help of 24 strangers you paid for the service. Even strutting around in those epics in front of the bank trying to impress lesser geared players is a social function. Ultimately those epics are useless to Gevlon, because the only game function of those epics is to allow you access to harder raid content. By using the "goblin raiding" method he can probably get into Ulduar dressed in greens, as long as he is paying enough.
Being entertained, playing with friends, overcoming challenges, and through the rewards opening up avenues to new challenges, that is what raiding is about for most people. "Goblin raiding" is an interesting parody of that, but it wouldn't fulfill most of our needs. In economic speak, goblin raiding doesn't maximize utility. Or at least it wouldn't for people who aren't sociopaths.
- posted by Tobold @ 1:16 PM Permanent Link
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I must admit I read both you and the Goblin because you are both so different, it's entertaining in different ways :) I think a MAJOR problem is right now that Naxx, OS and EoE offer nothing that different, no incentives to run, run run run run them - what I mean is that if you've done Naxx 10, then you'v effectively "done" Naxx 25. Blizz got it right with Kara - ongoing quests, rep and so on - more incentive than just loot. Me, I'm still at Naxx10 stage but I already hate it. I find it quite boring and I don't see much incentive to do it again, past once for the experience of each different level.
# posted by 
: 11/3/09 14:23
: 11/3/09 14:23
If we were rats then we would want to be in a skinner box. We enjoy 'earning' our food.
# posted by : 11/3/09 14:24
: 11/3/09 14:24
It is kinda amusing that as a Resto Druid Gevlon has found a way to pay 11K for what he could have got free just by joining the guild, going to a raid then leaving.
Which taken one step further, you start to recognize why making the game so easy is not a great thing either. Gavlon is the solo player able to buy epics, you are the casual who WotLK is aimed at, and anyone 'above' your level is SOL in terms of engaging content.
Just like Gavlon does not get the full raiding experience through buying his epics, more focused raiding guilds don't get it because WotLK is a cake walk. That experience, and not the exclusivity, is what drove raiding guilds to press through vanilla/BC raiding.
Just like Gavlon does not get the full raiding experience through buying his epics, more focused raiding guilds don't get it because WotLK is a cake walk. That experience, and not the exclusivity, is what drove raiding guilds to press through vanilla/BC raiding.
# posted by : 11/3/09 14:37
: 11/3/09 14:37
Even paying for crown gear in Wizard 101 cheapens it for me. But now that I did it once I feel like I have to again every 5 levels, since I can't stand being weak anymore. Funny how that works, I buy it and feel like "this makes it too easy" but then won't go back to playing without it.
(though part of that is because I want the new spells early)
(though part of that is because I want the new spells early)
Tobold, your $200 for God mode example is flawed because the character is deleted after one day. What if the deal was modified so that you go to keep any stuff and continue playing after your day of uberness was over? I imagine that deal would get quite a few takers.
Well, basically Gevlon has his kicks by thinking he is more clever than everybody else, kinda like the guy who uses an helicopter to climb a mountain and then laughs at all those poor bastards breaking their backs to climb it.
Some years ago, you were defined by what you were and what you could do. Nowadays you are defined by how much money you make and how you spend it. So Gevlon is a product of the times. And if he is happy, more power to him as long as he doesn't try to shove his way of life further down the throats of those you are unfortunate enough to expect a bit more than life than a large bank account and expensive stuff.
Usually greedy people have an old age where the most common prescription is anti-depressives. :)
Some years ago, you were defined by what you were and what you could do. Nowadays you are defined by how much money you make and how you spend it. So Gevlon is a product of the times. And if he is happy, more power to him as long as he doesn't try to shove his way of life further down the throats of those you are unfortunate enough to expect a bit more than life than a large bank account and expensive stuff.
Usually greedy people have an old age where the most common prescription is anti-depressives. :)
I could also pay a chinese to level up my char and do all the raiding for me. But why...?
You could also buy the Amani War Bear, but you cannot buy the feeling of accomplishment to have done it yourself with your guild/friends.
I just cannot understand that he has so much fun to reduce the whole game to economics. Many people are driven by loot lust, but Gevlon is trying to do everything in some more or less commercial way.
I am not even sure if he is roleplaying some kind of ultra-capitalist Goblin/Ferengi or a failed student of economics who cannot get over it.
You could also buy the Amani War Bear, but you cannot buy the feeling of accomplishment to have done it yourself with your guild/friends.
I just cannot understand that he has so much fun to reduce the whole game to economics. Many people are driven by loot lust, but Gevlon is trying to do everything in some more or less commercial way.
I am not even sure if he is roleplaying some kind of ultra-capitalist Goblin/Ferengi or a failed student of economics who cannot get over it.
There are people doing that. It is called private server.
You have to consider one thing, Tobold. It is very nice to learn content with your raid. You get first kills for your raid. That time is over. Most people have been to Naxx and know it. Naxx is no longer new.
Just ask yourself the following. Assume you haven't seen Kel. Neither in 10 nor 25 mode. If you would look for a raid, there will be alot of people in this raid who have already downed Kel one way or another. It won't feel as "first kill" because for to much people it's only repetition.
There is no way in hell that you'll be able to find a new raid learning Naxx at this point in time.
Whichever raid you choose, the raid will carry you because they know the boss and you don't. So, why not choose the best, even if it costs some gold?
At this point in time, you have no other chance then letting a raid carry you if you don't know Naxx already.
It's actually hard to explain what I would like to explain... :-)
You have to consider one thing, Tobold. It is very nice to learn content with your raid. You get first kills for your raid. That time is over. Most people have been to Naxx and know it. Naxx is no longer new.
Just ask yourself the following. Assume you haven't seen Kel. Neither in 10 nor 25 mode. If you would look for a raid, there will be alot of people in this raid who have already downed Kel one way or another. It won't feel as "first kill" because for to much people it's only repetition.
There is no way in hell that you'll be able to find a new raid learning Naxx at this point in time.
Whichever raid you choose, the raid will carry you because they know the boss and you don't. So, why not choose the best, even if it costs some gold?
At this point in time, you have no other chance then letting a raid carry you if you don't know Naxx already.
It's actually hard to explain what I would like to explain... :-)
>> "Because reaching content and getting epics by itself is worth nothing. We play for various reasons, but one reason is simply to spend time having fun. Pressing the "I win" button and bypassing all the game..."
Unless your idea of fun is to reach the content with the most business-efficient means possible. This may be worth nothing to you, but it's the whole game to Gevlon. His game is a "meta min-max" game, for lack of a better phrase. You have fun doing the content with your friends. He has fun finding the best way to "win" an MMO, which by definition is unwinnable.
World of Warcraft, like all good games, cater to many different ways to enjoy it, all at once and all intermeshing.
Unless your idea of fun is to reach the content with the most business-efficient means possible. This may be worth nothing to you, but it's the whole game to Gevlon. His game is a "meta min-max" game, for lack of a better phrase. You have fun doing the content with your friends. He has fun finding the best way to "win" an MMO, which by definition is unwinnable.
World of Warcraft, like all good games, cater to many different ways to enjoy it, all at once and all intermeshing.
Oh I think Gevlon did earn it--after all he has played the game to grind the money for the run he went on.
Its not the way I would choose to "earn" the right to see content--and he gets zero satisfaction of the first boss kills that the prolonged and repeated wiping pays off with.
To me its a very empty way to see raid content--unless he is boosting to get raidy for 3.1 and do content there--but somehow I doubt that.
Its not the way I would choose to "earn" the right to see content--and he gets zero satisfaction of the first boss kills that the prolonged and repeated wiping pays off with.
To me its a very empty way to see raid content--unless he is boosting to get raidy for 3.1 and do content there--but somehow I doubt that.
# posted by : 11/3/09 17:53
: 11/3/09 17:53
Personally I play this game for pvp, eventhough making money is fun it's not why I still play. Raiding is a necessary evil for prot pvp so I do it and it's easy as long as you have the patience to find the right guild. Just my two cents... er I mean copper... hehe shameless plug for my blog :)
The WoW players i personally know would press your elusive I WIN button again and again and again... and keep pressing it until everyone else stops pressing it (meaning that they'll be trapped i WoW forever, looking at eachother while pressing the big I WIN button).
"But that assumes that "reaching content" and getting the best epics is the ultimate goal of World of Warcraft."
To some people, that's exactly what the point is. There are even strong indicators deep in the game's design that indicate that's a valid, and highly encouraged, goal.
To some people, that's exactly what the point is. There are even strong indicators deep in the game's design that indicate that's a valid, and highly encouraged, goal.
Sometimes people become so focused on a goal that they forget about the process. They forget that part of the value of the goal is in the process. When something is easy it means less. This is why people can be so proud of absolute crap which they have made themselves: it was by their effort and as a result it is worth more to them.
At the end of the day you can buy everything in WoW, but what will it mean? How often can what sit back and say "damn I am awesome" and never question if they are truly awesome. There would be no significant memories attached to the items or even character, except perhaps "I remember this one time when I was flipping items on the AH and, get this... someone bought them!"
Moving beyond personal goals and motivation: Gevlon, like so many other leeches, falls into the trap of thinking that he has found a best way. He has not. It is impossible for everyone, or even a majority, to use AH-manipulation to buy gear. Someone has to actually farm, someone has to learn the bosses, someone has to spend a lot of time and gold. He is just a by-product of the surplus in the system, something like the mana-based monsters that you sometimes see near places of intense magical activity: they may have power, but none of it is their own, they're just by-products of a greater process.
At the end of the day you can buy everything in WoW, but what will it mean? How often can what sit back and say "damn I am awesome" and never question if they are truly awesome. There would be no significant memories attached to the items or even character, except perhaps "I remember this one time when I was flipping items on the AH and, get this... someone bought them!"
Moving beyond personal goals and motivation: Gevlon, like so many other leeches, falls into the trap of thinking that he has found a best way. He has not. It is impossible for everyone, or even a majority, to use AH-manipulation to buy gear. Someone has to actually farm, someone has to learn the bosses, someone has to spend a lot of time and gold. He is just a by-product of the surplus in the system, something like the mana-based monsters that you sometimes see near places of intense magical activity: they may have power, but none of it is their own, they're just by-products of a greater process.
Klep, I'm all for making the core game design fun to play in its own right, and the journey it's own reward. Thing is, that's not what the DIKU design is all about. The whole point of the core design is to push people forward, ever chasing the next incrementally better piece of loot. It's a treadmill with a gilded carrot, not a walk in a beautiful forest somewhere. The leveling content of WoW has plenty of "smell the roses" moments, but at the much vaunted "endgame", the treadmill hits in full force. It's certainly still possible just to enjoy playing with friends, and I'd agree that such is ideal, but the core design of the game doesn't really facilitate or foster that.
Gevlon has described one way to skip past the treadmill to the carrot. I see nothing really "wrong" with either the desire to do so or the methodology. It's a byproduct of broken treadmill design, and it will inevitably annoy those who are happy with the treadmill, but it doesn't invalidate their experience. Live and let live, and if you as a dev don't want your players fixating on purple pixels, change the core design.
(And tangentially, it could be argued that he has just chosen a different treadmill; the "goblin" path of AH manipulation which some would consider an exercise in tedium at best. As Tobold rightly notes, it's not going to work for everyone... but at the same time, not everyone wants to do it, just like not everyone wants to do the endgame treadmill.)
Gevlon has described one way to skip past the treadmill to the carrot. I see nothing really "wrong" with either the desire to do so or the methodology. It's a byproduct of broken treadmill design, and it will inevitably annoy those who are happy with the treadmill, but it doesn't invalidate their experience. Live and let live, and if you as a dev don't want your players fixating on purple pixels, change the core design.
(And tangentially, it could be argued that he has just chosen a different treadmill; the "goblin" path of AH manipulation which some would consider an exercise in tedium at best. As Tobold rightly notes, it's not going to work for everyone... but at the same time, not everyone wants to do it, just like not everyone wants to do the endgame treadmill.)
It sounds as if Gevlon doesn't care for the learning experience with these raids. He could have joined a guild and saved himself the 11k by raiding every week. Sounds like he doesn't want to raid every week.
Instead took what he seems to do best in WoW and that is make money by whatever means, and then used the profits for that to jump ahead in the raiding for gear by paying a bunch of people that can gear him up in things they already have and dont need for cash in the pockets. Sounds like a fair enough transaction with no one getting swindled or ripped off.
It's not like he is pulling what so many did not too long ago with selling arena ratings....
Should those BOE badge item's be BOP so people can't sell those for gold to the people who didn't earn the badges themselves to buy the equipment?
This situation and the $200 scenario for god mode for one day and losing it all are nothing alike by the way.
$200 for a complete iLvL200 Character permanent may be more along those lines. I bet there would be quite a few people who would jump at that.
" Pressing the "I win" button and bypassing all the game means you'd lose out on thousands of hours of entertainment " -Maybe those thousands of hours spent to him are not entertaining and he can find a better use for them that HE finds entertaining.
"Finally beating that boss in a group of guild mates and friends is a lot more satisfying for most of us than beating that boss with the help of 24 strangers you paid for the service" -Gevlon has friends on WoW so that matters to him? When I leave my house, I don't even speak about WoW. My friends hate the fact I play these types of games. I have 1 friend that is just trying it. My friends arn't the type to sit down to this type of game. So any guild i join, they will never be my mates or friends. I am not interested in making online friends, I am interested in finding competent people to play with.
Wearing those epics too, when he goes out to farm items put him in a better position to defend himself in PvP and take down mobs quicker for their loots. So there is a purpose to having the gear other than for raiding.
I am sorry but this is just a your side of the fence post.
Instead took what he seems to do best in WoW and that is make money by whatever means, and then used the profits for that to jump ahead in the raiding for gear by paying a bunch of people that can gear him up in things they already have and dont need for cash in the pockets. Sounds like a fair enough transaction with no one getting swindled or ripped off.
It's not like he is pulling what so many did not too long ago with selling arena ratings....
Should those BOE badge item's be BOP so people can't sell those for gold to the people who didn't earn the badges themselves to buy the equipment?
This situation and the $200 scenario for god mode for one day and losing it all are nothing alike by the way.
$200 for a complete iLvL200 Character permanent may be more along those lines. I bet there would be quite a few people who would jump at that.
" Pressing the "I win" button and bypassing all the game means you'd lose out on thousands of hours of entertainment " -Maybe those thousands of hours spent to him are not entertaining and he can find a better use for them that HE finds entertaining.
"Finally beating that boss in a group of guild mates and friends is a lot more satisfying for most of us than beating that boss with the help of 24 strangers you paid for the service" -Gevlon has friends on WoW so that matters to him? When I leave my house, I don't even speak about WoW. My friends hate the fact I play these types of games. I have 1 friend that is just trying it. My friends arn't the type to sit down to this type of game. So any guild i join, they will never be my mates or friends. I am not interested in making online friends, I am interested in finding competent people to play with.
Wearing those epics too, when he goes out to farm items put him in a better position to defend himself in PvP and take down mobs quicker for their loots. So there is a purpose to having the gear other than for raiding.
I am sorry but this is just a your side of the fence post.
Tobold: what you fail to notice is that the $200 trick comes from outside of the game world, as a cheat, just like buying gold. What I did is inside the game. If the aim of the game is to kill bosses or to get loot, I won the game along with the HC raiders. We have a system that allow us to kill all bosses, getting best loot. When Ulduar comes out, the HC clears first, goblins clear second, and socials clear it when Blizzard nerf it enough. It's actually YOU who do the $200 trick. Since there are many of you, Blizzard nerf the instances to you, giving you an invisible Iwin button.
Whilst it wouldn't be fun for me to get carried through a raid, there's nothing wrong with what Gevlon did as it was all done within the game itself, not by bringing in outside money to do it.
I'd rather not worry about gear collecting at all, but sadly the only way to experience the higher level content is to grind that gear from all the instances before that.
I'd rather not worry about gear collecting at all, but sadly the only way to experience the higher level content is to grind that gear from all the instances before that.
@mbp
I think Tobold's point was to illustrate a short cut to the end. Some might consider what Gevlon has done as a shortcut around experiencing the game. So Tobold took the idea to the extreme and offered a more efficient way to circumvent the experience of the content. The trophy screenshot is a permanent testimony of your "achievement".
@Tobold
I had more here but it grew into a blog post for myself. If you want to glance at it just follow my name to Warcraft Dialogues. I decided an invitation would be more courteous than just dropping the address in the middle of your comments.
I think Tobold's point was to illustrate a short cut to the end. Some might consider what Gevlon has done as a shortcut around experiencing the game. So Tobold took the idea to the extreme and offered a more efficient way to circumvent the experience of the content. The trophy screenshot is a permanent testimony of your "achievement".
@Tobold
I had more here but it grew into a blog post for myself. If you want to glance at it just follow my name to Warcraft Dialogues. I decided an invitation would be more courteous than just dropping the address in the middle of your comments.
If someone is so much absorbed and all about economics, why the hell does he not play a game that is all about economics...??
There are for sure better games for this than WoW.
There are for sure better games for this than WoW.
Trading gold for BoP epics is perfectly fine. If you can make gold faster than you can earn dkp, then why not. In case you didn't know, Gevlon has already cleared Naxx with his previous guild so it's not like its a learning fight for him either. If you are an above average player, you will "get" any new fight within a couple of tries anyway and the rest of the time is execution and praying that the others don't screw up.
Tobold, I'm actually quite surprised at your recent series of posts where you say the fun in raiding is in the challenge. I agree totally by the way, but I also recall your earlier posts complaining about Karazhan pre-nerf. You wanted to go in there with 9 buddies, any spec any class, and down the boss within a couple of tries. You did not want to wipe repeatedly on Attumen or Moroes for a couple of weeks while learning the fight. Was that not a challenge to be overcome with your friends? If you find that the difficulty of Naxx now provides the right level of challenge, what will you do if Blizzard releases new raids with increased levels of difficulty?
Tobold, I'm actually quite surprised at your recent series of posts where you say the fun in raiding is in the challenge. I agree totally by the way, but I also recall your earlier posts complaining about Karazhan pre-nerf. You wanted to go in there with 9 buddies, any spec any class, and down the boss within a couple of tries. You did not want to wipe repeatedly on Attumen or Moroes for a couple of weeks while learning the fight. Was that not a challenge to be overcome with your friends? If you find that the difficulty of Naxx now provides the right level of challenge, what will you do if Blizzard releases new raids with increased levels of difficulty?
# posted by : 12/3/09 03:08
: 12/3/09 03:08
Here's an even more 'efficient' idea for Gevlon. Instead of actually spending all that time playing WoW and making in game gold, spend the time on improving your real job and career. Make 'real world' money. Just like in WoW, playing the AH intelligently brings in a LOT more money than the traditional methods of grinding and dailies.
So take your money you get from the real world and convert that into buying an account in game with full epics and huge amounts of gold. You're skipping all the time you would spend paying subscription fees and it would be MUCH more efficient. On a good salary, with what you make in one hour, you can buy in-game gold that would take you several hours to put together.
Isn't this more 'efficient'?
(Note: I'm not advocating buying gold online. I hate the idea and would never do it myself, I'm trying to make a point here.)
I think Gevlon has horribly missed the whole point of WoW and possibly life itself. I'm not sure he realizes that you can't actually take any of that gold or any of those epics out of the game, and if WoW shuts down, they're gone for good. Just like real life in fact...
So what do they matter then?
I'll tell you one thing, when I sit around and chat with my friends, the stories that are the most fun to talk about aren't the ones about how much gold we made in game... they're the ones about how our group pulled off an amazing kill against a boss we really thought was going to take us out. How one of us sacrificed his character to pull aggro from the tank long enough for the healer to get a battle-rez and keep the tank alive.
Those moments when you realize you're part of a team that knows each other well and your accomplishments are legendary to you, not because of the silly purple armor you wear, but because you fought and struggled and overcame challenges, together.
I've given up reading Gevlon's site. It's like being berated by a pre-pubescent, mentally-deficient Yoda with ADHD and a severe inferiority complex. I really don't know why so many blogs actually give a damn what particular vitriolic drivel he spews out on a daily basis.
Just play the damned game and leave people like Gevlon to wallow in their own perceived 'awesomeness'.
So take your money you get from the real world and convert that into buying an account in game with full epics and huge amounts of gold. You're skipping all the time you would spend paying subscription fees and it would be MUCH more efficient. On a good salary, with what you make in one hour, you can buy in-game gold that would take you several hours to put together.
Isn't this more 'efficient'?
(Note: I'm not advocating buying gold online. I hate the idea and would never do it myself, I'm trying to make a point here.)
I think Gevlon has horribly missed the whole point of WoW and possibly life itself. I'm not sure he realizes that you can't actually take any of that gold or any of those epics out of the game, and if WoW shuts down, they're gone for good. Just like real life in fact...
So what do they matter then?
I'll tell you one thing, when I sit around and chat with my friends, the stories that are the most fun to talk about aren't the ones about how much gold we made in game... they're the ones about how our group pulled off an amazing kill against a boss we really thought was going to take us out. How one of us sacrificed his character to pull aggro from the tank long enough for the healer to get a battle-rez and keep the tank alive.
Those moments when you realize you're part of a team that knows each other well and your accomplishments are legendary to you, not because of the silly purple armor you wear, but because you fought and struggled and overcame challenges, together.
I've given up reading Gevlon's site. It's like being berated by a pre-pubescent, mentally-deficient Yoda with ADHD and a severe inferiority complex. I really don't know why so many blogs actually give a damn what particular vitriolic drivel he spews out on a daily basis.
Just play the damned game and leave people like Gevlon to wallow in their own perceived 'awesomeness'.
Tobold, I'm actually quite surprised at your recent series of posts where you say the fun in raiding is in the challenge. I agree totally by the way, but I also recall your earlier posts complaining about Karazhan pre-nerf. You wanted to go in there with 9 buddies, any spec any class, and down the boss within a couple of tries. You did not want to wipe repeatedly on Attumen or Moroes for a couple of weeks while learning the fight. Was that not a challenge to be overcome with your friends? If you find that the difficulty of Naxx now provides the right level of challenge, what will you do if Blizzard releases new raids with increased levels of difficulty?
The point is that different people need different degrees of difficulty as a "challenge". Something which is a nice challenge to Ensidia is impossible to do and frustrating to the average WoW player. The idea is to have the STARTING raid dungeon offer a low enough difficulty level to be a challenging but doable for the average player, and I think Naxxramas pretty much hit the sweet spot there. The error of The Burning Crusade was to already start far too hard. Once the average player is able to START raiding, he will become better at it with time, due to gaining experience and gear. That means that even if Ulduar is a good step up in difficulty, it won't feel completely out of reach. I certainly wouldn't want Ulduar to be as easy as Naxx.
The point is that different people need different degrees of difficulty as a "challenge". Something which is a nice challenge to Ensidia is impossible to do and frustrating to the average WoW player. The idea is to have the STARTING raid dungeon offer a low enough difficulty level to be a challenging but doable for the average player, and I think Naxxramas pretty much hit the sweet spot there. The error of The Burning Crusade was to already start far too hard. Once the average player is able to START raiding, he will become better at it with time, due to gaining experience and gear. That means that even if Ulduar is a good step up in difficulty, it won't feel completely out of reach. I certainly wouldn't want Ulduar to be as easy as Naxx.
Sorry this is kind of going off on a tangent, but even Naxx in its current state of difficulty (a complete joke) will not allow you to go in with 9 buddies, any spec any class (no need for healers and tanks), and defeat the bosses, which was what you thought it should be previously. So why is Naxx a sweet spot now?
I also have to caution that it is a sweet spot for you, not necessarily others. I've recently been to VoA with a ret pally and a hunter doing 800 dps, and another hunter doing 300 dps. And no they did not die. If you throw together a raid of 10 such players, they would have the exact same complaint of Naxx that you did of Kara, that it was too hard and "impossible to do". Therefore, should Blizzard nerf Naxx since the difficulty level is still too high for them? This is why I will always advocate players improving rather than nerfing encounters. Making something hard leaves a lot of room for players to learn and challenge themselves (those that want to). Making something easy just to provide instant gratification to a larger pool then leaves a large bunch of people with no way to improve themselves in a meaningful way i.e. teamwork and cooperation rather than mindless farming of gear.
Just to stay a bit on topic, those that look down on Gevlon's money making should consider that he likely does not make gold because he loves to roll around in his gold and take screenshots, he likely enjoys it as a puzzle or mini-game. If you only have a few thousand gold, you are frankly just really bad at this mini-game and probably have a very poor understanding of economic principles in general (but of course these people will then say it's because they don't care about it, not that they are bad...) If you ask me whether I want to spend 25 dkp on a raid item or 2000 gold, I would choose 2000 gold every single time since I have multiple avenues of easily obtaining 2000 gold at my leisure and dkp can only be accumulated within raids.
Also, you may not be aware that Gevlon is trying to prove a point that you do not need social connections/a guild to experience and defeat all encounters in the game. He has shown that maybe you just need gold :)
I also have to caution that it is a sweet spot for you, not necessarily others. I've recently been to VoA with a ret pally and a hunter doing 800 dps, and another hunter doing 300 dps. And no they did not die. If you throw together a raid of 10 such players, they would have the exact same complaint of Naxx that you did of Kara, that it was too hard and "impossible to do". Therefore, should Blizzard nerf Naxx since the difficulty level is still too high for them? This is why I will always advocate players improving rather than nerfing encounters. Making something hard leaves a lot of room for players to learn and challenge themselves (those that want to). Making something easy just to provide instant gratification to a larger pool then leaves a large bunch of people with no way to improve themselves in a meaningful way i.e. teamwork and cooperation rather than mindless farming of gear.
Just to stay a bit on topic, those that look down on Gevlon's money making should consider that he likely does not make gold because he loves to roll around in his gold and take screenshots, he likely enjoys it as a puzzle or mini-game. If you only have a few thousand gold, you are frankly just really bad at this mini-game and probably have a very poor understanding of economic principles in general (but of course these people will then say it's because they don't care about it, not that they are bad...) If you ask me whether I want to spend 25 dkp on a raid item or 2000 gold, I would choose 2000 gold every single time since I have multiple avenues of easily obtaining 2000 gold at my leisure and dkp can only be accumulated within raids.
Also, you may not be aware that Gevlon is trying to prove a point that you do not need social connections/a guild to experience and defeat all encounters in the game. He has shown that maybe you just need gold :)
# posted by : 12/3/09 07:21
: 12/3/09 07:21
Yes, some people also bypass all the hassle of building social and personal connections and buy their friends or even partners.
I mean, if somebody threw a *uckload of money my way, in-game or IRL, I would probably tolerate him/her for a bit...
And I would even praise him/her for avoiding all the getting to know one another malarkey...
Why bother with the slow grind that is knowing one another when you can just throw a huge party in a huge house and see all those guests become your friends for life...
I mean, if somebody threw a *uckload of money my way, in-game or IRL, I would probably tolerate him/her for a bit...
And I would even praise him/her for avoiding all the getting to know one another malarkey...
Why bother with the slow grind that is knowing one another when you can just throw a huge party in a huge house and see all those guests become your friends for life...
I also have to caution that it is a sweet spot for you, not necessarily others. I've recently been to VoA with a ret pally and a hunter doing 800 dps, and another hunter doing 300 dps. And no they did not die. If you throw together a raid of 10 such players, they would have the exact same complaint of Naxx that you did of Kara, that it was too hard and "impossible to do". Therefore, should Blizzard nerf Naxx since the difficulty level is still too high for them?
If you divide players in 100 different categories according to their skill level, and then count how many players are in each category, you will get what is known as a Gauss curve (bell curve), with lots of players of average skill, and less and less players of extremely high or extremely low skill. Given unlimited resources you could imagine Blizzard making 100 different raid dungeons, one for each difficulty category. That not being possible in the real world, you have to go with a STARTING raid dungeon which is at or just below the medium category, where the most players are. If you make the first dungeon so that it is optimal for the lowest category, the majority of players are bored. If you make the first dungeon so that it is optimal for the average player, then a few very low skilled people find it too difficult, and a few very high skilled players find it too hard, but the MAXIMUM number of players finds it just right. Seeing how crowded Naxxramas is every night, there is good evidence that Naxx difficulty is at or close to that sweet point.
If you divide players in 100 different categories according to their skill level, and then count how many players are in each category, you will get what is known as a Gauss curve (bell curve), with lots of players of average skill, and less and less players of extremely high or extremely low skill. Given unlimited resources you could imagine Blizzard making 100 different raid dungeons, one for each difficulty category. That not being possible in the real world, you have to go with a STARTING raid dungeon which is at or just below the medium category, where the most players are. If you make the first dungeon so that it is optimal for the lowest category, the majority of players are bored. If you make the first dungeon so that it is optimal for the average player, then a few very low skilled people find it too difficult, and a few very high skilled players find it too hard, but the MAXIMUM number of players finds it just right. Seeing how crowded Naxxramas is every night, there is good evidence that Naxx difficulty is at or close to that sweet point.
I disagree with that Tobold. If you set the challenge for the maximum number of people, what you will get is what is happening now : a huge amount of people who are completely bored with Naxx. They are in Naxx not because they find it challenging, they are in there because it's easy epics. If they had set Naxx to the difficulty level of level 20 Deadmines while dropping the same gear, you would see even more people in there.
There's a big difference between setting something too easy and setting something too hard. You can progress towards killing more bosses in an instance. Once you've completed it, there is no more progression. Killing them faster is not progression. If you set the difficulty at the 75% mark of your curve, 25% of players will complete the instance while 75% can progress towards their goal (those at the lower end of the curve will progress slower, but there is still progress). Setting the difficulty at the 25% mark means 75% of players have no skill progression in that instance any more. If you value challenge, then which is better? Is it better for players to improve so that more can see content, or nerf content so that more players can see it?
There's a big difference between setting something too easy and setting something too hard. You can progress towards killing more bosses in an instance. Once you've completed it, there is no more progression. Killing them faster is not progression. If you set the difficulty at the 75% mark of your curve, 25% of players will complete the instance while 75% can progress towards their goal (those at the lower end of the curve will progress slower, but there is still progress). Setting the difficulty at the 25% mark means 75% of players have no skill progression in that instance any more. If you value challenge, then which is better? Is it better for players to improve so that more can see content, or nerf content so that more players can see it?
# posted by : 12/3/09 10:01
: 12/3/09 10:01
Greedy Goblin does what he does: his definition of fun may be considerably different than yours, as he's stated for example in the Beer Game post earlier (http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/2009/03/beer-game.html) I agree with Pookie, though: "Also, you may not be aware that Gevlon is trying to prove a point that you do not need social connections/a guild to experience and defeat all encounters in the game. He has shown that maybe you just need gold :)"
While not the solution I'd like to see and hear about, it's still one viable solution to the problem of getting to see the content: it's not too long ago when high level players were selling boost runs to the neglected vanilla WoW raid dungeons and no-one complained. I think even Tobold posted about that way back then, and not in very harsh words either.
It's just the other way around: why shouldn't the raid guilds fund their progress by offering these 'paid runs' to contributing non-guildies?
At the same time, I'd like to experience the content without a boost, with the difficulty level that's challenging and enjoy the challenge myself. As someone stated in these comments, that's not possible anymore except in very, very strange circumstances.
Copra
While not the solution I'd like to see and hear about, it's still one viable solution to the problem of getting to see the content: it's not too long ago when high level players were selling boost runs to the neglected vanilla WoW raid dungeons and no-one complained. I think even Tobold posted about that way back then, and not in very harsh words either.
It's just the other way around: why shouldn't the raid guilds fund their progress by offering these 'paid runs' to contributing non-guildies?
At the same time, I'd like to experience the content without a boost, with the difficulty level that's challenging and enjoy the challenge myself. As someone stated in these comments, that's not possible anymore except in very, very strange circumstances.
Copra
I'd like for content to be more accessible, or at least doable. For me, WoW Is about the story first, the people second, and the epic loot probably a nice third.
That said, I'm excited to hit 80 ( Just hit 77), but I'm not going to go all out and rush it, just because everyone else is in Naxx. Gevlon gets his real money's worth by using virtual money to influence others to do things with him. That's all well and good, but not everyone finds worth in the game in that way, right? :)
That said, I'm excited to hit 80 ( Just hit 77), but I'm not going to go all out and rush it, just because everyone else is in Naxx. Gevlon gets his real money's worth by using virtual money to influence others to do things with him. That's all well and good, but not everyone finds worth in the game in that way, right? :)
Not judging how others play the game, but rather reflecting on what I get from raiding. On progression nights, there is a tremendous thrill that comes from the risk of failure. You personally must perform at the tops of your ability, and you must trust the players around you to do the same. If naxx is too easy for your team, try Sarth with another drake up each week until you're one-shotting 3D.
For me, farm nights are like riding Disney's Its a Small World, and progression nights are like Magellan circumnavigating the world. Sure, I've seen the world in both scenarios and both offer some entertainment value, but after I stop playing WoW, one will stand out in my memory quite a bit more than the other.
Its fine for somebody to pay for a raid spot, it's been happening for years now. Two things popped into my head when I read Tobold's article and the comments here: (1) Were people paying gold for T1 or T4 raid spots? Seems that all the examples provided are for advanced things like Amani Warbears or other advanced raid tiers. (2) If somebody wanted to pay for the thrill of a progression night where the risk of failure is a distinct possibility, what would the top guilds charge for that? A spot on their progression team on the progression night for their first kill of Malygos or Sarth+3?
I've no issue with buying a progression raid spot either, but I think the price would be exponentially higher, and that reflects how much people actually value the progression experience.
For me, farm nights are like riding Disney's Its a Small World, and progression nights are like Magellan circumnavigating the world. Sure, I've seen the world in both scenarios and both offer some entertainment value, but after I stop playing WoW, one will stand out in my memory quite a bit more than the other.
Its fine for somebody to pay for a raid spot, it's been happening for years now. Two things popped into my head when I read Tobold's article and the comments here: (1) Were people paying gold for T1 or T4 raid spots? Seems that all the examples provided are for advanced things like Amani Warbears or other advanced raid tiers. (2) If somebody wanted to pay for the thrill of a progression night where the risk of failure is a distinct possibility, what would the top guilds charge for that? A spot on their progression team on the progression night for their first kill of Malygos or Sarth+3?
I've no issue with buying a progression raid spot either, but I think the price would be exponentially higher, and that reflects how much people actually value the progression experience.
The joy of WoW is that there are so many ways to 'win' the game: pet collecting, pacifist leveling, auctioneering, arenas, recipe collecting, achievements, guild organizing... the list goes on. So many goals that bring satistifaction to different players.
The little goblin dude has defined his 'win' as seeing endgame and getting some gear... oh and making tons of money. That is perfectly valid for him. But he cannot expect other people with their differing perspectives to see it as a 'win' from their definition.
I am on Tobold's side of the fence that I find the 'win' for me by starting out with a group of my guildies and learning the content from scratch. Progressing from barely clearing Naxx10 in 3 evenings to clearing it in 3hrs. So yes Gevlon can win the game on his terms, but I will never see it as a 'win'. It is not 'cheating' by the ToS but it does seem like 'missing the point' from my perspective.
The little goblin dude has defined his 'win' as seeing endgame and getting some gear... oh and making tons of money. That is perfectly valid for him. But he cannot expect other people with their differing perspectives to see it as a 'win' from their definition.
I am on Tobold's side of the fence that I find the 'win' for me by starting out with a group of my guildies and learning the content from scratch. Progressing from barely clearing Naxx10 in 3 evenings to clearing it in 3hrs. So yes Gevlon can win the game on his terms, but I will never see it as a 'win'. It is not 'cheating' by the ToS but it does seem like 'missing the point' from my perspective.
# posted by : 12/3/09 16:39
: 12/3/09 16:39
So, are those who just log in and do "naked" dance emotes on the mailbox "missing the point"? It's an MMO with people with wildly divergent tastes and goals. That's the point of the whole blasted MMO genre.
Gevlon set out to accomplish something, and he did so. Cheers to him for approaching the game in a different way that didn't constitute of griefing. I wish these MMO games offered more divergent goals and methods for reaching them. I'd not be personally interested in the Goblin method, but I'm happy that the game supports such, because it makes the game world richer for the diversity and options. If the "only way to play" *by design* is the DIKU death march, the game is too tightly focused to really be a "big tent" MMO with mass appeal. Part of what makes the bulk of WoW work is the variety of things to do at all different levels (though it could be better, certainly). The raiding game is rather constrained by contrast, and it's nice to see someone push the envelope a bit.
Gevlon set out to accomplish something, and he did so. Cheers to him for approaching the game in a different way that didn't constitute of griefing. I wish these MMO games offered more divergent goals and methods for reaching them. I'd not be personally interested in the Goblin method, but I'm happy that the game supports such, because it makes the game world richer for the diversity and options. If the "only way to play" *by design* is the DIKU death march, the game is too tightly focused to really be a "big tent" MMO with mass appeal. Part of what makes the bulk of WoW work is the variety of things to do at all different levels (though it could be better, certainly). The raiding game is rather constrained by contrast, and it's nice to see someone push the envelope a bit.
and sorry for the double post here, but there's an even more efficient way of doing this: just ebay a toon. would we all be up in arms about how efficient he is and how he's "bypassed the grind"? RMT will get you fully loaded in epics.
if that's your only destination, why even bother schlepping around on the AH? oh, because it's "legit"? lol? so NOW you have morals?
I'm just confused and bored by the whole conversation.
if that's your only destination, why even bother schlepping around on the AH? oh, because it's "legit"? lol? so NOW you have morals?
I'm just confused and bored by the whole conversation.
I'm surprised no one has pointed this out yet, but implying that Gevlon is a sociopath simply because he chooses to play a game in a different manner than you do doesn't make _you_ look any too stable. I'm curious as to what you think the definition of a sociopath actually is.
Well, if you want some definitions from the World Health Organization, they include behavioral patterns like "Callous unconcern for the feelings of others and lack of the capacity for empathy." or "Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships.". Which fit Gevlon's description of his virtual life. Of course I never met him in real life, and can't say whether he has a different behavior there.
Actually people do kinda take up the offer for fully epixed characters that expire after a set period. Blizzard in fact just made this offer, they called it the Arena Tournament. Granted there is the idea of competing for prize money/a title for your live character, but hey, closest actual parallel I could think of.
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