Tobold's Blog
Sunday, April 12, 2009
 
Open Sunday Thread

Happy Easter! Like every Sunday, I am not blogging today, so I leave the floor to you for discussion and suggestions.
Comments:
I was wondering if you've been following Darkfall online at all since its launch. I managed to get hold of it a few days ago. And its the most fun i've had in an MMO yet. and thats mainly due to much much of a social game it is. in WoW all people really have guilds for is raids. in Darkfall i've found as expected without a gulid, you're pretty screwed. My guild in darkfall recently captured a hamlet, which we now base ourselves in. We do everything as a group, regular pve sessions to obtain ourselves armour and weapons, as items cannot be repaired in darkfall and must be replcaed constantly. Also whilst darkfall has skills not levels, low level skills is not a set back. You can do pretty much everything in game from the moment you first log in, I've not found the skills to be something i must grind to max before i can be of any use. I just use them as i see fit and let them slowly rise. Whereas in WoW most people see it as you have to lvl to 80 before seeing the real game.

I know pvp isn't your most favourite of things,in wow it certainly wasn't mine either. But in darkfall its very different. I think you should give it another try simply for the great social activities it provides..
 
Hi Tobold. I was wondering how you felt about roleplaying in MMOs and if you found anything ironic in the fact that they are meant to be RPG games but have very little sense of it. Personally I feel these games become more about upgrading gear and stat chasing than actually playing a persona. What do you think?
 
Seeing as RPG games pretty much started off as single player you have to understand that the whole role playing portion was never really part of it. So it makes sense that in the transition to MMO it still doesn't.

It would have made sense giving them a different name when they were created, but I'm guessing people wanted to stick with what people were used to. That said I guess we do have several subtypes now like RogueLike, Action, and Tactical so it's almost progress...

TBH of those that I know that still play pen & paper DnD very little role playing actually occurs.
 
Hi Tobold. I was wondering how you felt about roleplaying in MMOs and if you found anything ironic in the fact that they are meant to be RPG games but have very little sense of it. Personally I feel these games become more about upgrading gear and stat chasing than actually playing a persona. What do you think?

I covered my thoughts on roleplaying in MMOs in a recent post. Short version is that "upgrading gear and stat chasing" is exactly what the genre is about. Maybe the name "roleplaying" wasn't very well chosen for that, but theatrics were always a niche.
 
It seems a shame that upgrading gear and stat chasing is such a core principal of these games and that "phat" loot is so central to it. Would like to see more of the "Legendary Item system" in Lotr being expanded to other games if it hasn't already?
 
This comment has been removed by the author.
 
Isn't the "legendary item system" just upgrading items? How is chasing a new item different from upgrading a current one, surely you're just chasing stats still.
 
Seeing as RPG games pretty much started off as single player you have to understand that the whole role playing portion was never really part of it. So it makes sense that in the transition to MMO it still doesn't.

Actually, it seems they started off as non-computer versions, that did have full blown role playing in them, but once the move to computer was made, the people playing/producing them seemed to get stuck on the "levels and loot" part, which now has in a lot of ways become the bane of this type of game's existence. (And now lots of developers/players can't imagine this sort of game without "advancement", which ends up detracting from the fun in quite a lot of ways.)
 
On the topic of Role-playing in MMOs, I posted recently on a similar topic. (Sorry for the plug, just seems relevant)

I'm not sure how MMO devs can make people RP more. If people don't want to, they won't It seems to me already they have to bribe players to RP.
 
Actual roleplaying in pen & paper games was pretty rare too. A lot of people used to just want to make "super me" characters with the best loot rather than acting out a different personality. The used to be called "power gamers", which was intended as an insult rather than a compliment. I suspect that most MMOs are just recognising the (to me, sad) reality that this is the majority of their player base.
 
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twinking : "A twink is somebody who, within the confines and restrictions that a game provides, attempts to maximize the effectiveness of his character in one or more categories."

It seems that titles and achievements are a small step away from this, because the end rewards don't influence the power of your character.
 
That definition of twink is completely wrong in the context of MMOs. But being totally wrong is what Wikipedia is for.

Twinking isn't just maximizing "a character" it's about boosting a lower level character with things normally inaccessible for a character of that level, normally by using a higher level character, typically belonging to the same person. Titles and achievements are something you get on your main character and which a higher level character can't really help you get (in most cases) and in any case since they do nothing for your actual power in game they really aren't applicable to twinking in any way.

RPG-wise, pen&paper RPGs had lots of role playing, at least for some players in some groups but it was also really easy for the games to degenerate into just maximizing your stats, killing monsters, and grabbing loot. That degenerate sort of "role playing" is what got ported over to computer games.
 
Wondering what you thought of City of Heroes user-created content in the new Architect expansion? Do you see it working in other MMORPGs and giving some of those that have lost ground in users a chance to suddenly come out with new content?
 
@Dillon, sorry i was talking about computer only RPGs, so when I said "started off as single player" i was referring to after they made the jump to the electronic world.

TBH i'm not convinced that actual role playing should have a part in MMOs at all.
 
Originally "role playing" games evolved from the Chaimnail minature wargames rules. It was a form of wargaming where you commanded a "role" as opposed to an army, ie just one unit. It was not the original intention of Arnesen and Gygax to create a kind of amateur dramatics with dice.

I think the swing towards dramatisation was wonderful and made these games much more vivid and immersive. I also think it doesn't really work in MMOs. I've played on several RP servers in SW:G, EQ2 and WoW and this is what I think should happen:
- people stay in character all the time, acting out parts as if they were actors in a fantasy film

This is what does happen
- someone will troll the RPers either accidentally by breaking the fourth wall or deliberately to see what happens
- a passionate and heated flame war will break out in chat channels
- all immersion is lost with the RP fanatics being every bit as unconducive to immersion as the trolls and the clueless

Remember that bit in Lord of The Rings where Gandalf says "ffs Legolas, no REAL elf would say shooting - it's archery dammit, haven't you seen page 345 of the Dungeon Master's Guide?" No? Didn't think so.

So we end up with the only RP being theme park private guild rp. All the orc rpers go off to sit on some mountain in private with no one else allowed.

Now that isn't really roleplaying as we know it from pen and paper because 1) it's contrived not spontaneous 2) it's atmospheric not action and 3) it's so damn slow and dull with 40 of you sat there waiting for some slow typer to type out his epic speech.

It's as if the Fellowship hid in a corner of Elrond's forest doing emotes while Sauron burned the world down around them.

I don't think RP works in these games. I love pen and paper RP and LARP. I have invested a great deal of time RPing in MMOs yet the best memories are of basic cosmetic things like 20 orcs marching in perfect formation and a RP guild I was in that had a really great tabard.
 
Can we talk about class imbalance in WoW concerning PvP? Specifically over powered Ret Paladins?

I havnt' played one in a while. But after checking:

QQ time:

1. Their Hammer of Justice and Repentance ranges have been significantly increased. They used to be 6 yards and 10 yards not 15 yards (glyphed) and 20 yards. Cooldwon increased to 1 minute on HoJ but can be glyphed down.

2. They get a 15% movement speed increase on foot.

3. Their spell damage is Holy so there is no resistance.

4. 3.1 patch Lay on Hands glyphed will be 11 minutes.

5. And the 3 minute bubble (prot one).

Paladins used to be able to be kited. Now they can catch you, stun you twice, have three health bars and can burst you down. With blessing of freedom, you can't get away and the Divine Shield bubble is being used offensively as a deal sealer... the "I Win" button to finish off opponents in 1v1.

Don't get me started on the single button mashing script videos for Paladins and DK's. It makes me sick.


Warcraftrealms.com has Census data for WoW. People (Blizzard) will argue that it isn't accurate. I will give is some validity for arguments.

Take a look at http://www.warcraftrealms.com/weeklyactivity.php?serverid=-1

Check the Rogue line versus the Paladin line.

3.1 patch does not address class imbalances in WoW PvP. If you play a Rogue in WoW PvP it's time to roll FotM Paladin or quit.
 
In classical RPG's, twinking was to play with your attention 100% devoted to maximizing your stats and character power, and 0% devoted to roleplaying. In that sense of the word, WoW makes twinks of us all.
 
Tdubs036: It seems a shame that upgrading gear and stat chasing is such a core principal of these games and that "phat" loot is so central to it. Would like to see more of the "Legendary Item system" in Lotr being expanded to other games if it hasn't already?It's a bit ironic that you mention the legendary item system in LOTRO as being the solution to upgrading gear and stat chasing since it really causes that game to be almost worse in that area. ;)

Since the stats on the legendary items are random (except that you get to choose from two stats when reforging the item) it leads to even more chasing after the perfect stats. There's a lot of grinding involved also getting the items leveled up. If you want to get good relics from deconstructing those that you don't need you should also level them up to L11+. I guess it can be done better by allowing people to choose the legendary stats, but that might then just allow min-maxing too much.
 
Paladins OP? I have a ret and DKs pwn me more than ever. They by far have the craziest burst damage, not to mention stuns, mind freezes, etc. As for glyphs, most of the glyphs you mention are not in use by rets. Holy and Prot pallies don't typically pvp anyway.
Forget class balance, it wrecks the game. It's a holy grail. Each class should be good against some and bad against others. ie. Strengths and weaknesses. These in turn should be compensated for by TEAMWORK. End of story.
 
Post a Comment

Links to this post:

Create a Link



<< Home
Newer›  ‹Older

  Powered by Blogger   Free Page Rank Tool