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Wednesday, January 27, 2010
Is that still the same Gevlon?
People on the internet love nothing more than a good conspiracy theory, a subject on which my blog is notoriously short of. So to fill that gap, here is a thought: Is the person currently writing the Greedy Goblin blog under the name of Gevlon still the same Gevlon who started that blog? What if, like the Dread Pirate Roberts, the original Gevlon handed his blog over to somebody else, the only requirement being that the new author, in the words of Hobbes, must be nasty, brutish, and short?
The evidence for that theory is found in the very much changed writing on Gevlon's blog. Less than a year ago the original Gevlon wrote a very insightful post on when dps is Good Enough. In that article he calculated how much damage per second a dps player needed to produce to kill Patchwerk, and that doing that number would be "good enough". Quote: "If everyone else makes 5K DPS, they are still not carrying you, as you still put in enough effort. The fact that they do much more effort does not change the outcome of the fight, just the time spent."
Now compare that to his post of yesterday, where he argues the exact opposite point. He is in a random pickup group, finds that some dps are lower than the tank on the damage meter, and tries to force the pickup group to vote kick those dps, ending with him being vote kicked himself. Because, as the other players realize, the "bad dps" are in fact good enough (and funnily enough one of the guys Gevlon wants to kick does MORE dps than the "good enough" number he calculated in last years post). Kicking bad dps would just slow the pickup group more than "carrying" them.
Other evidence for "Gevlon" not being Gevlon any more are the relative lack of WoW economy posts, other than posting reader screenshots from economic "morons". The current Gevlon obviously doesn't share the old Gevlon's interest in virtual economics, but is more interested in group content and raiding. Which are inherently social activities, and thus not at all aligned with the interests of the original Gevlon.
And if you believed all that, next up my theory how Syncaine is in reality Tasos Flambouras.
- posted by Tobold @ 10:44 AM Permanent Link
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Well, that is certainly a very roundabout way of calling someone a hypocrite. But just in case someone missed it, the title of the latter post is "If you can't beat them, join them!". In other words, he encourages people do do "good enough" dps, and no more.
Nothing would surprise me after the paladinschmaladin stuff a while back.
# posted by 
: 27/1/10 14:18
: 27/1/10 14:18
Well, that is certainly a very roundabout way of calling someone a hypocrite. But just in case someone missed it, the title of the latter post is "If you can't beat them, join them!". In other words, he encourages people do do "good enough" dps, and no more.
I'd rather call it a reflection on how people change.
But did you actually read his post? He isn't encouraging people to do "good enough" dps, he is proposing that they use the threat of "slacking" and reducing their dps to good enough level to force a pickup group to vote kick out the real slackers. Not that this is likely to work. Read both posts, and tell me that Gevlon's opinions haven't changed!
I'd rather call it a reflection on how people change.
But did you actually read his post? He isn't encouraging people to do "good enough" dps, he is proposing that they use the threat of "slacking" and reducing their dps to good enough level to force a pickup group to vote kick out the real slackers. Not that this is likely to work. Read both posts, and tell me that Gevlon's opinions haven't changed!
Wow, Gevlon's post was simply the douchiest thing I have read from a WoW player in a long time. It depresses me that some puggers actually think this is a legitimate philosophy.
Look, many tanks, especially paladins and death knights, produce a nontrivial amount of damage. As a well geared pally tank, I am usually surprised when there are no DPS below me. The pally in the game mentioned was putting out 2221 DPS. If everybody puts out about that amount, most dungeons can be cleared with ease. Remember that heroics dungeons are not meant to be ultra high end content. They are the dungeons you go to when you have no purples at all and maybe even one or two residual greens. When I was gearing up my shadow priest offspec, I was delighted when I broke 2K, and felt that I was doing well.
It's not even a question of being "moral," it's a question of playing the game competently. This is a team game, and there's more to being competent than making the biggest contribution. If you are not good at being social, YOU actively hurt the team, slow down the run, and risk getting /ignored. I would ignore this guy if he were in my group, no question, regardless of who is doing the most damage. All that matters to me in a heroic is that everyone get along and finish the run. Being a dick makes you a bad player.
Look, many tanks, especially paladins and death knights, produce a nontrivial amount of damage. As a well geared pally tank, I am usually surprised when there are no DPS below me. The pally in the game mentioned was putting out 2221 DPS. If everybody puts out about that amount, most dungeons can be cleared with ease. Remember that heroics dungeons are not meant to be ultra high end content. They are the dungeons you go to when you have no purples at all and maybe even one or two residual greens. When I was gearing up my shadow priest offspec, I was delighted when I broke 2K, and felt that I was doing well.
It's not even a question of being "moral," it's a question of playing the game competently. This is a team game, and there's more to being competent than making the biggest contribution. If you are not good at being social, YOU actively hurt the team, slow down the run, and risk getting /ignored. I would ignore this guy if he were in my group, no question, regardless of who is doing the most damage. All that matters to me in a heroic is that everyone get along and finish the run. Being a dick makes you a bad player.
I accept that a geared and skilled tank-healer duo can 2-men the instances, making the "good enough" level of DPS to 0 (literally), but I don't see why should we have different standards for tanks, healers and DPS.
The point is that if the tank and the healer would be equally skilled and geared to the DPS I want to kick, the instance would not be doable. So the below 1.5K DPS is not "good enough".
If we would accept double standards, demanding more from tanks and healers, they will respec DPS for the easy ride, and in lack of tanks and healers, the instance will not be doable.
However the rest worth a post, since they are about a serious change in the way we play the game.
The point is that if the tank and the healer would be equally skilled and geared to the DPS I want to kick, the instance would not be doable. So the below 1.5K DPS is not "good enough".
If we would accept double standards, demanding more from tanks and healers, they will respec DPS for the easy ride, and in lack of tanks and healers, the instance will not be doable.
However the rest worth a post, since they are about a serious change in the way we play the game.
I've got some critical comments where a reader pointed out that I was contradicting myself. And I had no problems whatsoever to admit it: yes I do! All the time!
That's who I am - a person who can see things from different points of view. I've never claimed to be a politician with consistent views and a well-thought out program that is completely logical and won't change. My views are influenced by my mood that very day. And even though Gevlon is more of a blogger with a vision and mission, I suspect it's a bit of the same with him. I defnitely don't think the person behind Greedy Goblin is anyone else but the one I've known from the beginning.
That's who I am - a person who can see things from different points of view. I've never claimed to be a politician with consistent views and a well-thought out program that is completely logical and won't change. My views are influenced by my mood that very day. And even though Gevlon is more of a blogger with a vision and mission, I suspect it's a bit of the same with him. I defnitely don't think the person behind Greedy Goblin is anyone else but the one I've known from the beginning.
In one of my posts related to our little war a while back, the original draft included a part where I suggested you sold your blog here and took up being Gevlon full time, hence your change in tone here. Funny that you now write basically the reverse of that.
But from the little I know of Gevlon, it would seem like something he would do; sell his blog at the height of it's popularity. Someone once linked me a tool used by 'internet people' to determine the value of your website based on certain factors (Google rating being a prime one), and it's somewhat surprising the value assigned. Prior to the Community Publishing program from AV, I completely dismissed it. Now, I can see some validity to it all.
But from the little I know of Gevlon, it would seem like something he would do; sell his blog at the height of it's popularity. Someone once linked me a tool used by 'internet people' to determine the value of your website based on certain factors (Google rating being a prime one), and it's somewhat surprising the value assigned. Prior to the Community Publishing program from AV, I completely dismissed it. Now, I can see some validity to it all.
# posted by : 27/1/10 15:31
: 27/1/10 15:31
Suggestion Tobold: you should go back to your earlier posts and see where you also changed your mind.
But that would indeed prove my theory that Gevlon took over your blog and that the real Tobold is now a hardcore PvPer on Darkfall.
But that would indeed prove my theory that Gevlon took over your blog and that the real Tobold is now a hardcore PvPer on Darkfall.
# posted by : 27/1/10 15:39
: 27/1/10 15:39
The DPS in the newer Gevlon article really were not pulling DPS that was 'good enough' (at least based on the examples he gave us). If that was a representative example of their performance I would also consider them to incompetent or slacking off.
It's really a question of what tolerances one uses when applying the 'good enough' standard
It's really a question of what tolerances one uses when applying the 'good enough' standard
My views are influenced by my mood that very day. And even though Gevlon is more of a blogger with a vision and mission, I suspect it's a bit of the same with him. I defnitely don't think the person behind Greedy Goblin is anyone else but the one I've known from the beginning.
I fully agree, and I hope most readers got the humor. Without humor, and Gevlon's colorful personality, this would have been a "another blogger complained about low dps in PuGs" post, which really would have interested no-one.
I do change my mind quite often as well. That should be pretty obvious, as I write about the games I play, and thus my periods where I got fed up with WoW and play something else are very visible. I would say that I do have some basic beliefs that don't change, just like Gevlon is unlikely to suddenly turn into a flower power hippie. But my opinions of lesser things, like how much fun raiding is or isn't, or what class to prefer, changes very much with the circumstances.
I think Gevlon's Undergeared project is great, a welcome difference from the hypocrisy of people claiming to want challenge but doing everything to avoid it. It is only logical that when his mind is occupied with selecting able candidates for that guild, measuring skill instead of gear, he is more concerned with damage meters than gold meters at the moment. And his reaction to morons & slackers is very much in character.
I fully agree, and I hope most readers got the humor. Without humor, and Gevlon's colorful personality, this would have been a "another blogger complained about low dps in PuGs" post, which really would have interested no-one.
I do change my mind quite often as well. That should be pretty obvious, as I write about the games I play, and thus my periods where I got fed up with WoW and play something else are very visible. I would say that I do have some basic beliefs that don't change, just like Gevlon is unlikely to suddenly turn into a flower power hippie. But my opinions of lesser things, like how much fun raiding is or isn't, or what class to prefer, changes very much with the circumstances.
I think Gevlon's Undergeared project is great, a welcome difference from the hypocrisy of people claiming to want challenge but doing everything to avoid it. It is only logical that when his mind is occupied with selecting able candidates for that guild, measuring skill instead of gear, he is more concerned with damage meters than gold meters at the moment. And his reaction to morons & slackers is very much in character.
Read both posts, and tell me that Gevlon's opinions haven't changed!
It hasn't changed, you're just seeing the same issue from a different point of view. The first post only deals with the DPS, while the latter extends the same line of thought to cover healing and tanking, showing how absurd the current situation is: Due to the game mechanics, the criteria for "good enough" is heavily weighed in favor of the DPS. That said, the point could have been made without trolling the PuG, but it's better to show the double standard in action than to just tell.
It hasn't changed, you're just seeing the same issue from a different point of view. The first post only deals with the DPS, while the latter extends the same line of thought to cover healing and tanking, showing how absurd the current situation is: Due to the game mechanics, the criteria for "good enough" is heavily weighed in favor of the DPS. That said, the point could have been made without trolling the PuG, but it's better to show the double standard in action than to just tell.
A long while back there was a new blogger named Gevlon. He was a decent sort of fellow. But I was trying to get into the blogging sphere of blogs and I did not need the competition. So I tracked down his IP and infected his computer with a keylogger. I stole his blog. He's not very technically inclined, so he must have attributed it to "one of those internet things".
After that I changed the writing. I set his (now my) blog up for one purpose: to make me look like a nicer person. 'Gevlon' would throw around insults and senseless circular logic while I'd talk about teaching noobs so we'd not have any more noobs. 'Gevlon' would proclaim that all that mattered was selfishness while I'd explain how social obligation was ultimately self-interest.
I did have my limits though. I was nice to Larisa because even in my villain disguise, who could be cruel to her?
It never quite worked. I had my little island while he seemed to spread everywhere. The monster somehow became loved. I can only attribute this to some sort of infection of sociopaths and sycophants.
After that I changed the writing. I set his (now my) blog up for one purpose: to make me look like a nicer person. 'Gevlon' would throw around insults and senseless circular logic while I'd talk about teaching noobs so we'd not have any more noobs. 'Gevlon' would proclaim that all that mattered was selfishness while I'd explain how social obligation was ultimately self-interest.
I did have my limits though. I was nice to Larisa because even in my villain disguise, who could be cruel to her?
It never quite worked. I had my little island while he seemed to spread everywhere. The monster somehow became loved. I can only attribute this to some sort of infection of sociopaths and sycophants.
What do Syncaine, Abraham Lincoln, and my great aunt's dog have in common? THEY WERE ALL BORN ON THE SAME DAY!
No, wait, no they weren't...
>>I'd rather call it a reflection on how people change.
I'de call it a reflection on how people develop their ideas as they gather more evidence. It's a GOOD thing people do this, or science wouldn't exist and we'de all believe that the earth is flat and is the center of the universe.
--
In the ancient "good enough" post, (which I follow like gospel in deciding if someone is worthwhile to keep around), he points out a mathematical minimum, nothing more or less.
In current posts, especially the "kick M&S" he is not proclaiming they aren't 'good enough' (they could be), he is arguing that getting badges for being afk is better than giving someone badges for them being afk. Can you argue against that point, really?
I sure know I would like to log in wow in the morning from work, put the healer on follow, then tab out to do some real work, tabbing in only every 15m to requeue. That's 30 seconds of work for 3-5 badges.
When looking at whether someone is 'good enough' you have to keep in mind goal. If goal = kill boss, like in the patchwerk examination, then the min is 2k. If the goal is "do above average dps for your gear level" then clearly the slackers he's boosting are NOT good enough. They ARE good enough if the goal is 'clear instance,' but that doesn't seem to be his goal, now does it?
No, wait, no they weren't...
>>I'd rather call it a reflection on how people change.
I'de call it a reflection on how people develop their ideas as they gather more evidence. It's a GOOD thing people do this, or science wouldn't exist and we'de all believe that the earth is flat and is the center of the universe.
--
In the ancient "good enough" post, (which I follow like gospel in deciding if someone is worthwhile to keep around), he points out a mathematical minimum, nothing more or less.
In current posts, especially the "kick M&S" he is not proclaiming they aren't 'good enough' (they could be), he is arguing that getting badges for being afk is better than giving someone badges for them being afk. Can you argue against that point, really?
I sure know I would like to log in wow in the morning from work, put the healer on follow, then tab out to do some real work, tabbing in only every 15m to requeue. That's 30 seconds of work for 3-5 badges.
When looking at whether someone is 'good enough' you have to keep in mind goal. If goal = kill boss, like in the patchwerk examination, then the min is 2k. If the goal is "do above average dps for your gear level" then clearly the slackers he's boosting are NOT good enough. They ARE good enough if the goal is 'clear instance,' but that doesn't seem to be his goal, now does it?
As Walt Whitman said, "Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.)"
There's nothing wrong with changing one's mind from time to time.
There's nothing wrong with changing one's mind from time to time.
# posted by : 27/1/10 18:46
: 27/1/10 18:46
I don't know if Gevlon is the same person or not but I do know that the signal to noise ratio of his blog has gone way down. It used to be a useful WoW economics blog with helpings of Objectivism and bizarre anti-social philosophies. Now it's 80-90% rants and 10% economics.
In relation to kicking slacking dps, you're going to get kicked more often than not for doing the things that Gevlon tried. Threatening to afk if the group didn't kick someone? You've already shown a willingness to be an ass, therefore the likelihood that you'll an ass later in the run has increased dramatically. Most people would prefer to kick you and have drama-free run.
In relation to kicking slacking dps, you're going to get kicked more often than not for doing the things that Gevlon tried. Threatening to afk if the group didn't kick someone? You've already shown a willingness to be an ass, therefore the likelihood that you'll an ass later in the run has increased dramatically. Most people would prefer to kick you and have drama-free run.
There's no contradiction between Gevlon's two posts. The only change is in the goals that he is striving for*. Remember that for Gevlon everything is risk/reward based. And all rewards are tangible - measurable - whether it's (in-game) gold, loot or achievements. For Gevlon there is no warm and cozy feeling of a job well done. There's no value in just having fun.
I've carried sub-par DPS through instances before and rather than complain about it I'll take pride in that fact. And sometimes I've even been the weak link.
As the saying goes:
I don't try to be better than everyone else, I just try to be better than me.
In his latest post Gevlon is just ticked that not everyone on the planet shares his world-view.
* in the original post his goal is to minimize his personal contribution while ensuring that he gets his reward and he assumes that everyone else will do the same. In the second article his need is to minimize the time spent on his project. Thus those people whose contribution is below average have to be removed from the project.
I've carried sub-par DPS through instances before and rather than complain about it I'll take pride in that fact. And sometimes I've even been the weak link.
As the saying goes:
I don't try to be better than everyone else, I just try to be better than me.
In his latest post Gevlon is just ticked that not everyone on the planet shares his world-view.
* in the original post his goal is to minimize his personal contribution while ensuring that he gets his reward and he assumes that everyone else will do the same. In the second article his need is to minimize the time spent on his project. Thus those people whose contribution is below average have to be removed from the project.
@Mike: Until you have clones or only one person, there will always be a below average person. That's just how reality works.
TBH, I was waiting for Gevlon to come out and say that he was "Going Galt" in WoW. Now he's discovered that as an individual with-holding his 'productive' labour the impact on those around him is tiny, a small bump in the road, and so he seeks to recruit others to his cause. His blog is an attempted retelling of Atlas Shrugged in the WoW-blogosphere, complete with two-dimensional archetypes and a superficial understanding of human psychology as it pertains to playing games. Thankfully though, he's a better writer than Ayn Rand.
Expect a claim that WoW is dying soon.
Expect a claim that WoW is dying soon.
Well, Tobold, you write posts asking why do people want to make the game easier with guides...then a few posts latter ask for paladin tanking guides, IIRC.
People can be self contradictory.
People can be self contradictory.
Gevlong has changed. It`s called wow burnout. Hes gonna find some new game to get hooked on and reset back to sosiopat mode again soon. No worries.
Instead of vote kick people I let them die. Shooting something other than the skull? Pulling when you're not the Tank? AoE before the Tank has established aggro?
Where did my heal button go? hmmm....I see my heal Tank button...where is the heal DPS button...?
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Where did my heal button go? hmmm....I see my heal Tank button...where is the heal DPS button...?
# posted by : 28/1/10 22:05
: 28/1/10 22:05<< Home
