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Wednesday, April 28, 2010
The future of raiding in Cataclysm
Yesterday's question was somewhat leading, because I knew some people would reply with "there are no pure raiding games because people only raid for the gear". Which I don't think is true, I'd even say it *cannot* be true. Because the gear you get from raiding is only good for raiding, if you don't raid there is absolutely no need for the stuff: You can't use raid gear for PvP because it doesn't have resilience, and you don't need it for daily quests or heroic dungeons, because it is overpowered for that. So somehow players must find raiding inherently fun. Which makes it interesting to see how the fun changes when the basic rules of raiding change.
Blizzard just announced their vision of raiding in Cataclysm, and Spinks doesn't like it. She of course is totally correct in stating that a regular 25-man raid is logistically harder to organize than a 10-man raid. I don't agree with her assumption that a 25-man raid is also inherently more difficult; she says "25 people have to execute the fight correctly, as opposed to just 10", which just isn't true. If you did 40-man raids in vanilla WoW you know that depending on the encounter only 25 to 35 people in the raid needed to execute the fight correctly, while the rest could be tourists. Which had its own advantages for teaching new guild members how to raid. So if Blizzard, as they say, make 25-man raids as easy as 10-man raids, the larger number of people means that a few overperformers will again make a few underperformers possible, which unless your name is Gevlon is a good thing. Any restriction to group content where all participants need to be at exactly the same power and skill level makes organizing more difficult and causes problems of social cohesion.
So I would think that for guilds that *can* get 25 people together, it will be in Cataclysm even more advantageous to actually do so, because if it works like advertised, the 25-man raid will give more item drops per player, at identical difficulty level. The alternative of running 2 or 3 10-man raids in big guilds is far trickier, as there is a very real risk of an A-Team and a B-Team forming which progress at different speeds and end up splitting the guild.
It is quite possible that this announcement of changes to raiding is actually of far lesser consequence than the changes to the speed of raiding which were hinted at in various class announcements. Supposedly raiding in Cataclysm will be somewhat less button mashing twitchy, and give somewhat more opportunity to play your class well. Larger health pools compared to incoming damage and outgoing heals will result in less "lets spam the fastest heal all the time" healing, especially since mana efficiency will also make a comeback. I'm not sure if the average raider nowadays is actually able to play his class really well, or whether the last two expansions just taught him fast reaction skills without having to spend much thought on what button would be best to hit. If raiding goes back to be more similar to raiding in vanilla WoW, some people are in for a surprise, because with just the set of twitch skills they acquired in WotLK raiding they wouldn't have gotten past Razorgore. If Cataclysm raiding turns out to be like the devs said, I'm looking forward to it.
- posted by Tobold @ 6:30 AM Permanent Link
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"The alternative of running 2 or 3 10-man raids in big guilds is far trickier, as there is a very real risk of an A-Team and a B-Team forming which progress at different speeds and end up splitting the guild."
The problem is the A team already knows this. They have no incentive to join with the B-Team and get extra chances at the loot from the early bosses in 25 when they could go to 10 and clear the instance.
Forming a raid of exclusively good players without any average or poor ones is really that big an advantage.
My fear isn't that nobody will want to do 25s without a loot incentive, it's that talent will leak to more exclusive 10 mans, and that players that enjoy both will plump for 10s because it's easier. Since you need a lot more than 25 people to field regular progression raids, that sort of hit to the recruitment pool is not going to be fun :<
The problem is the A team already knows this. They have no incentive to join with the B-Team and get extra chances at the loot from the early bosses in 25 when they could go to 10 and clear the instance.
Forming a raid of exclusively good players without any average or poor ones is really that big an advantage.
My fear isn't that nobody will want to do 25s without a loot incentive, it's that talent will leak to more exclusive 10 mans, and that players that enjoy both will plump for 10s because it's easier. Since you need a lot more than 25 people to field regular progression raids, that sort of hit to the recruitment pool is not going to be fun :<
The issue is that many commentators are extrapolating today's current environment with the changes planned in the future.
Currently, 10-mans are easier in difficulty because the gear requirements are less. If this condition holds true in Cata, then this could spell the death of the 25-man raid guild.
However, Blizzard will make 10-mans equivalent in difficulty. Whether they can do so remains to be seen.
I'm all for the change. In Cata, those doing 25-man raids will be there because they like the "epic raid" feel rather than doing it for the gear.
10-man strict guilds are also rejoicing at the changes.
Currently, 10-mans are easier in difficulty because the gear requirements are less. If this condition holds true in Cata, then this could spell the death of the 25-man raid guild.
However, Blizzard will make 10-mans equivalent in difficulty. Whether they can do so remains to be seen.
I'm all for the change. In Cata, those doing 25-man raids will be there because they like the "epic raid" feel rather than doing it for the gear.
10-man strict guilds are also rejoicing at the changes.
It bothers me just a bit that you use "making 25-mans as easy as 10-mans" in your post. I shouldn't need to point out why that might not be true, since that argument has been rehashed several times over, but ultimately, I think it is more likely that Blizzard will go the other way and scale everything up to the higher level of difficulty.
Yesterday's question was somewhat leading, because I knew some people would reply with "there are no pure raiding games because people only raid for the gear". Which I don't think is true, I'd even say it *cannot* be true. Because the gear you get from raiding is only good for raiding, if you don't raid there is absolutely no need for the stuff: You can't use raid gear for PvP because it doesn't have resilience, and you don't need it for daily quests or heroic dungeons, because it is overpowered for that.
Now, that's a superfical argument. Why don't you say:
"Because the gear you get from playing WoW is only good for playing WoW" ?
If gear progression in raids itself were unimportant, the way you decribe, I wonder why Blizzard bothers with all the balancing. Just remove all loot from PvE raids and be done with the balancing.
Point is that some people liked to gain raid gear even if that gear could only be used for raids. I am none of them.
However, a lot of loot in raids can be used in BG-PvP, which is why I like to raid. But that's just me.
It is the idea that the character who slayed the Lich King is stronger than the one who just killed night elves all day long. I admit that this (credible, immersive) idea cannot be found often anymmore nowadays.
It has been replaced by the idea that we all pay the same amount of money and therefore have right to own the same epixxx.
Now, that's a superfical argument. Why don't you say:
"Because the gear you get from playing WoW is only good for playing WoW" ?
If gear progression in raids itself were unimportant, the way you decribe, I wonder why Blizzard bothers with all the balancing. Just remove all loot from PvE raids and be done with the balancing.
Point is that some people liked to gain raid gear even if that gear could only be used for raids. I am none of them.
However, a lot of loot in raids can be used in BG-PvP, which is why I like to raid. But that's just me.
It is the idea that the character who slayed the Lich King is stronger than the one who just killed night elves all day long. I admit that this (credible, immersive) idea cannot be found often anymmore nowadays.
It has been replaced by the idea that we all pay the same amount of money and therefore have right to own the same epixxx.
I would embrace a change in raiding. I was never able to get into it with the current set-up. I think any changes making raiding more casual friendly are a good thing. I like to see the 5 and 10 man content getting a little love from Blizzard. I always enjoyed those more than I liked the 25 man stuff.
Oh, and it has been replaced by the idea of "fair PvP".
That's those Counter-Strike people who think that in PvP only skill (and latency) should determine the winner, no RP-like factors.
It's those people who whine if they joined a PvP server and then get killed by somebody in World PvP in an unfair fight. I agree that WoW implemented World PvP in a bad way and it might therefore make sense remove it (which is what they did). But it still makes you wonder why people joined a PvP server in the first place.
About the rest of your post. I agree. I, too, look forward to Cataclysm.
They do a lot of things right this time. Especially, BG-PvP, resilience that doesn't affect crits, higher health pools, reasonable 10-mans, healers that go oom, ...
And perhaps even a higher difficulty outside of heroic raids. That's what I really look forward to. I want to get the feeling that my character is powerful. If every enemy, especially in the open world, is a onehit, my character doesn't feel powerful, but wasting his time.
You feel powerful if you overcome enemies that feel powerful. Nowadays enemies outside of heroic raids do not feel powerful, but like paper dolls.
That's those Counter-Strike people who think that in PvP only skill (and latency) should determine the winner, no RP-like factors.
It's those people who whine if they joined a PvP server and then get killed by somebody in World PvP in an unfair fight. I agree that WoW implemented World PvP in a bad way and it might therefore make sense remove it (which is what they did). But it still makes you wonder why people joined a PvP server in the first place.
About the rest of your post. I agree. I, too, look forward to Cataclysm.
They do a lot of things right this time. Especially, BG-PvP, resilience that doesn't affect crits, higher health pools, reasonable 10-mans, healers that go oom, ...
And perhaps even a higher difficulty outside of heroic raids. That's what I really look forward to. I want to get the feeling that my character is powerful. If every enemy, especially in the open world, is a onehit, my character doesn't feel powerful, but wasting his time.
You feel powerful if you overcome enemies that feel powerful. Nowadays enemies outside of heroic raids do not feel powerful, but like paper dolls.
About 25-man raiding:
If nobody did it if there wasn't a reward for doing it, that really begged the question, why it's in the game, doesn't it?
After all Blizzard removes 'unfun' things all the time.
In my opinion they should offer 10-mans, 20-mans and 40-mans, but not for the same raid dungeon. Thes edungeon should offer their equip really slowly.
But that's certainly not the way Blizzard goes. I've also hoped they would abjure the idea that all players need to be at the same lvl and itemlvl all the time. But it seems like WoW is now officially a 2-character game.
1) Tx
2) T(x+1)
That's your T-Set. Lvl is the same for every character that matters.
Every few months they update the game in such a way that the Tx charcter from time to time get downgraded to T(x-1) and the T(x-1) need to regrind their itemlvl.
Seems strange to me. I still have the hope that the item replacement rate is considerably lower, because 10-mans and 25-mans do not offer the same kind itemlvl.
If nobody did it if there wasn't a reward for doing it, that really begged the question, why it's in the game, doesn't it?
After all Blizzard removes 'unfun' things all the time.
In my opinion they should offer 10-mans, 20-mans and 40-mans, but not for the same raid dungeon. Thes edungeon should offer their equip really slowly.
But that's certainly not the way Blizzard goes. I've also hoped they would abjure the idea that all players need to be at the same lvl and itemlvl all the time. But it seems like WoW is now officially a 2-character game.
1) Tx
2) T(x+1)
That's your T-Set. Lvl is the same for every character that matters.
Every few months they update the game in such a way that the Tx charcter from time to time get downgraded to T(x-1) and the T(x-1) need to regrind their itemlvl.
Seems strange to me. I still have the hope that the item replacement rate is considerably lower, because 10-mans and 25-mans do not offer the same kind itemlvl.
Tobold, you wrote several times that MMORPGS work by keeping players on a constant dopamine high. Now, however, you dismiss the role of gear (reward) in making raids "fun". Aren't you contradicting yourself here?
Nit-picking:
You can't use raid gear for PvP because it doesn't have resilience
This isn't true. I am not posting an explanation here because no one would read it; refer to AJ, if you wish.
play your class well
Give me a break. :(
Nit-picking:
You can't use raid gear for PvP because it doesn't have resilience
This isn't true. I am not posting an explanation here because no one would read it; refer to AJ, if you wish.
play your class well
Give me a break. :(
Gear is a leaderboard within a socially relevant context. That makes it important also outside raiding.
Otherwise the problem that kills the 25-man raids is group cohesion and member turnover.
Look at your own group you play with. The list of 10 that you do the most things with is changed how often?
Now compare that frequency of changes with the list of 25 you play with for bigger raids.
You will find that even if you get a lot more gear per person and kill you will still be losing that gear to organizational churn. Lost gear due to churn is negative feedback to the guild administrators.
We already know that players actions are a lot more controlled by the need to prevent negative feedback than they are controlled by the possibility to increase positive feedback.
Otherwise the problem that kills the 25-man raids is group cohesion and member turnover.
Look at your own group you play with. The list of 10 that you do the most things with is changed how often?
Now compare that frequency of changes with the list of 25 you play with for bigger raids.
You will find that even if you get a lot more gear per person and kill you will still be losing that gear to organizational churn. Lost gear due to churn is negative feedback to the guild administrators.
We already know that players actions are a lot more controlled by the need to prevent negative feedback than they are controlled by the possibility to increase positive feedback.
You know, I've seen a lot of people lamenting that 25 man raids won't be organised for them but I haven't seen many people who actually do the organising complain.
People raid for the gear. If you would give another way of obtaining gear they would do that and would quit raiding. Just remember how many players were grinding/leeching AV when it was the easiest way of obtaining gear. Now there are 10 minutes queue on random bgs. Nobody goes there any more.
Obtaining gear is the core of any mmo. It's a virtual world where everybody can be better than others just by playing more hours per day. People get gear and then log on and stand in Dalaran or Orgrimmar. Or they go to a bg because they can oneshot lesser geared players resilience or not. Or they go to do heroics so that they can abuse others for not being uber enough.
When average joe (and I consider myself one) gets frustrated in real life by stupid boss, deadlines, idiot clients, traffic jams, neighbours etc. it's good to have another world where you can be the man of the day. You are the one who annihilates the enemy at the flag in AB or who does the most dps in random hero.
And its relatively easy to reach in WoW. You don't need super skills. You only need gear. Gear is everything. 90% of the players don't care where they get it. Hell I bet they would buy it for RL cash and would jump into a bg to test it.
Believe me. Nobody cares about the raiding. Who cares about the art in Catalysm? Who cares about the lore? Everybody wants ace new spells and fast gear so that they can feel the easily obtained glory they miss in rl.
It's very sad in my opinion. This is the spirit that kills this game. For me and my friends at least.
Obtaining gear is the core of any mmo. It's a virtual world where everybody can be better than others just by playing more hours per day. People get gear and then log on and stand in Dalaran or Orgrimmar. Or they go to a bg because they can oneshot lesser geared players resilience or not. Or they go to do heroics so that they can abuse others for not being uber enough.
When average joe (and I consider myself one) gets frustrated in real life by stupid boss, deadlines, idiot clients, traffic jams, neighbours etc. it's good to have another world where you can be the man of the day. You are the one who annihilates the enemy at the flag in AB or who does the most dps in random hero.
And its relatively easy to reach in WoW. You don't need super skills. You only need gear. Gear is everything. 90% of the players don't care where they get it. Hell I bet they would buy it for RL cash and would jump into a bg to test it.
Believe me. Nobody cares about the raiding. Who cares about the art in Catalysm? Who cares about the lore? Everybody wants ace new spells and fast gear so that they can feel the easily obtained glory they miss in rl.
It's very sad in my opinion. This is the spirit that kills this game. For me and my friends at least.
What you don't seem to notice is that the "few overperformers" has little reason left to carry the "few underperformers". They can just leave and raid 10 men.
It's very sad in my opinion. This is the spirit that kills this game. For me and my friends at least.
I share this fear.
Superficial games like Farmville are successful.
Games are about rules. The very essence of rules is to limit the player. Players always strife to circumvent/break the rules. It is often indistinguishable from "overcoming a challenge".
If you'd add a button 'Give T10 immediately', players would click it. At least the vast majority. That doesn't mean that it were fun, though.
If game developers give in and give players what they want, they become part of the game instead of shapers of the game.
Blizzard developers who gave people welfare epics where part of the game. Sure, everybody likes to have epix. But the color is meaningless now, the term 'epic' has become a parody.
The game has been shaped by the players, just like collateralized debt obligations have (indirectly)been appraised by the sales people.
I share this fear.
Superficial games like Farmville are successful.
Games are about rules. The very essence of rules is to limit the player. Players always strife to circumvent/break the rules. It is often indistinguishable from "overcoming a challenge".
If you'd add a button 'Give T10 immediately', players would click it. At least the vast majority. That doesn't mean that it were fun, though.
If game developers give in and give players what they want, they become part of the game instead of shapers of the game.
Blizzard developers who gave people welfare epics where part of the game. Sure, everybody likes to have epix. But the color is meaningless now, the term 'epic' has become a parody.
The game has been shaped by the players, just like collateralized debt obligations have (indirectly)been appraised by the sales people.
If anything, I believe that 25 manned raids will come out stronger in Cata.
Raid leaders and organizers will chose to lead and organize the big raids. If you have to chose, you pick the large group, for several reasons:
1. If you wanted to lead a very small group, you would be doing dungeon crawls only, raid leaders wants to lead big raids in epic encounters. Like Stabs says, there are not many raid-planners complaining. So when forced to chose between 10 and 25, your guild leaders will chose 25. And your guild will follow them.
2. Legendaries. They will not drop at the same rate in 10 manned, so your guild will go for 25 manned raids.
3. badges. They will be scarcer when you cannot vacuum 10's for added badges, and since 25 provides more badges, that is where you will go.
4. Raiders will be suprised at how hard 10 mans are, when they do not overgear them like we do now in 10s with 25 manned gear. Karazhan was hard, when it first came out.
5. connections. One person dc'ing or spilling coffee in 10 is 10% of your raidforce out. In 25, its 4% only. So 25 manned raids can live with that one dc/mistake/afk, 10 manned cannot.
Those where just of the top of my head. In guild that currently raid 25 manned, i predict that 10's will be for alts, and 25's will be much more in focus.
Raid leaders and organizers will chose to lead and organize the big raids. If you have to chose, you pick the large group, for several reasons:
1. If you wanted to lead a very small group, you would be doing dungeon crawls only, raid leaders wants to lead big raids in epic encounters. Like Stabs says, there are not many raid-planners complaining. So when forced to chose between 10 and 25, your guild leaders will chose 25. And your guild will follow them.
2. Legendaries. They will not drop at the same rate in 10 manned, so your guild will go for 25 manned raids.
3. badges. They will be scarcer when you cannot vacuum 10's for added badges, and since 25 provides more badges, that is where you will go.
4. Raiders will be suprised at how hard 10 mans are, when they do not overgear them like we do now in 10s with 25 manned gear. Karazhan was hard, when it first came out.
5. connections. One person dc'ing or spilling coffee in 10 is 10% of your raidforce out. In 25, its 4% only. So 25 manned raids can live with that one dc/mistake/afk, 10 manned cannot.
Those where just of the top of my head. In guild that currently raid 25 manned, i predict that 10's will be for alts, and 25's will be much more in focus.
"and you don't need for daily quests or heroic dungeons, because it is overpowered for that"
True but irrelevant. The clear majority of players in all MMOs I've played prefer to be as overgeared for any encounter as they possibly can be. The only thing that stops them is any mechanism that prevents them getting loot or other credit for the kill.
True but irrelevant. The clear majority of players in all MMOs I've played prefer to be as overgeared for any encounter as they possibly can be. The only thing that stops them is any mechanism that prevents them getting loot or other credit for the kill.
@Dwism
"badges. They will be scarcer when you cannot vacuum 10's for added badges, and since 25 provides more badges, that is where you will go."
If you had read the notes you would know that there won't be any more badges.
"Raiders will be suprised at how hard 10 mans are, when they do not overgear them like we do now in 10s with 25 manned gear. Karazhan was hard, when it first came out."
Again, if you had read the notes you would know that the difficulty will be the same in 10 and 25.
Talking without knowledge is a typical social behavior. There will be no reason to raid 25 other than "my raid is bigger than yours".
"badges. They will be scarcer when you cannot vacuum 10's for added badges, and since 25 provides more badges, that is where you will go."
If you had read the notes you would know that there won't be any more badges.
"Raiders will be suprised at how hard 10 mans are, when they do not overgear them like we do now in 10s with 25 manned gear. Karazhan was hard, when it first came out."
Again, if you had read the notes you would know that the difficulty will be the same in 10 and 25.
Talking without knowledge is a typical social behavior. There will be no reason to raid 25 other than "my raid is bigger than yours".
On a more social note, i've always wondered what exact social value do you get out of a 25/40 man raid? It's too many players to actually "socialize" during the raid. Blizzard also can't design these raids to be as interactive as a 5-man DDO dungeon , since it's simply too much to get 25 players to ALL do something very specific and actually -communicate- . A 25 raid really comes down to one person talking and the rest following in silence and doing what they're told. :/
Now take DDO and even the latest AoC [expansion] dungeons and it doesn't take you long to realise that here they force the group to actually stop and discuss some tactics as to who is going to go across the bridge, who's going to stay behind to stand on pillars and who's going to look for traps (and who CAN look for it) etc etc.
It's kinda like the larger the raid is, the LESS personal it becomes. Like working for a big corporation vs. a small company. You're just a little cog in a big[ger] machine.
So surely somewhere Blizzard or anyone for that matter might be wondering how to make dungeons more "interactive" and more "social" and simply more "fun". I really dont' see how it's easy to achieve with a 25-man+ raid setup, unless they force you to split into little 5-man groups [which comes down to smaller raid groups anyway].
Now take DDO and even the latest AoC [expansion] dungeons and it doesn't take you long to realise that here they force the group to actually stop and discuss some tactics as to who is going to go across the bridge, who's going to stay behind to stand on pillars and who's going to look for traps (and who CAN look for it) etc etc.
It's kinda like the larger the raid is, the LESS personal it becomes. Like working for a big corporation vs. a small company. You're just a little cog in a big[ger] machine.
So surely somewhere Blizzard or anyone for that matter might be wondering how to make dungeons more "interactive" and more "social" and simply more "fun". I really dont' see how it's easy to achieve with a 25-man+ raid setup, unless they force you to split into little 5-man groups [which comes down to smaller raid groups anyway].
"If you did 40-man raids in vanilla WoW you know that depending on the encounter only 25 to 35 people in the raid needed to execute the fight correctly, while the rest could be tourists."
That was only correct because of the nature of the fights in classic. E.g. could you imagine an Archimonde, Sindragosa or Lichking fight with 40 people? It would be hell.
On the topic of 25s vs. 10s. I for one organize and raid 25s because of the gear disparity, but definitely am more attracted to 10mens, mainly because of one reason. I feel as an above average player (which I consider myself to be) I have a way bigger influence on a good outcome of the fight in 10s.
This is especially noticable as DPS on fights with lots of target switches like e.g. Putricide where one good DPS can make a 10s fight but doesn't change the outcome in 25s.
That was only correct because of the nature of the fights in classic. E.g. could you imagine an Archimonde, Sindragosa or Lichking fight with 40 people? It would be hell.
On the topic of 25s vs. 10s. I for one organize and raid 25s because of the gear disparity, but definitely am more attracted to 10mens, mainly because of one reason. I feel as an above average player (which I consider myself to be) I have a way bigger influence on a good outcome of the fight in 10s.
This is especially noticable as DPS on fights with lots of target switches like e.g. Putricide where one good DPS can make a 10s fight but doesn't change the outcome in 25s.
Think Gevlon is right for once here. These changes is going to kill 25 man raiding for many guilds. Unless you are in one of those hardcore guilds its alot less hassle to organize 10 mans due to no showers, slacers, afkèrs etc. The vulnarability of loosing one player is bigger in 10 man, but often in 25 man when you got 10-15 good players and 10-15 not so good that is ultimately alot worse. So with this changes it will be 2 reasons for running 25 mans. 1 - you accually got 25+ really good players you can trust and you accuallyt want them all on your team 2 - "epic" feeling of 25 mans. I forsee the death of 25 man runs.
You could probably say put it like this:
There are two kinds of reasons why people do something:
1) It's fun in itself.
2) They want to do it for some other reason.
10 mans can be fun in itself, as can BGs and 5mans and even questing.
40 mans never were fun in itself, but it felt epic and you wanted to be part of it.
25 man is a bad compromise.
It's not really epic and it's not fun in itself (for many people).
So most people do 25 mans, because they offer the best loot. And it's not like they couldn't stand them. It's just that they are not fun in itself.
In my opinion Blizzard should offer 5/10man and then epic, like 40 man.
But please different encounters. Something that has already been done by 10-man can never feel epic. Doesn't matter that you can do it with 5000 people.
World bosses are a great example for 'epic'. They are not fun in itelf. But you feel like gather with many many others to slay this dragon, who is a danger to Azeroth.
So, just include those 25mans and see them die. Then, next expansion you can skip them.
There are two kinds of reasons why people do something:
1) It's fun in itself.
2) They want to do it for some other reason.
10 mans can be fun in itself, as can BGs and 5mans and even questing.
40 mans never were fun in itself, but it felt epic and you wanted to be part of it.
25 man is a bad compromise.
It's not really epic and it's not fun in itself (for many people).
So most people do 25 mans, because they offer the best loot. And it's not like they couldn't stand them. It's just that they are not fun in itself.
In my opinion Blizzard should offer 5/10man and then epic, like 40 man.
But please different encounters. Something that has already been done by 10-man can never feel epic. Doesn't matter that you can do it with 5000 people.
World bosses are a great example for 'epic'. They are not fun in itelf. But you feel like gather with many many others to slay this dragon, who is a danger to Azeroth.
So, just include those 25mans and see them die. Then, next expansion you can skip them.
This is blizzard be careful of reading things into what they said. I believe they stated there would be more drops in 25 man runs. I don't ever remember seeing them say more drops per player.
I doubt they'll drop 300 percent more gear in a 25 man raid than a 10 man raid and that's what they'll have to do for it to be more per player.
I doubt they'll drop 300 percent more gear in a 25 man raid than a 10 man raid and that's what they'll have to do for it to be more per player.
it's simple logic.
Less leeway for error in 10 mans.
Easier for hard core raiders to put together 10 man team that can raid.
Thus hard core raiders will do 10 mans because of logistical issues.
Casual raiders will have raids that have less leeway for error.
I see it as lose lose for everyone but the hard core raiders.
This idea of thiers only works if they create totally seperate raid instances that have their own independent 40 man, 25 man and 10 man progression paths.
It's going to do to 25 man raids what BC did to 40 man raids. And it takes just as many officers to run a small guild as a medium sized guild. nothing they do will generate more people willing to run guilds.
Less leeway for error in 10 mans.
Easier for hard core raiders to put together 10 man team that can raid.
Thus hard core raiders will do 10 mans because of logistical issues.
Casual raiders will have raids that have less leeway for error.
I see it as lose lose for everyone but the hard core raiders.
This idea of thiers only works if they create totally seperate raid instances that have their own independent 40 man, 25 man and 10 man progression paths.
It's going to do to 25 man raids what BC did to 40 man raids. And it takes just as many officers to run a small guild as a medium sized guild. nothing they do will generate more people willing to run guilds.
I don't ever remember seeing them say more drops per player.
You're wrong, that is exactly what they said: "We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people."
You're wrong, that is exactly what they said: "We of course recognize the logistical realities of organizing larger groups of people, so while the loot quality will not change, 25-player versions will drop a higher quantity of loot per player (items, but also badges, and even gold), making it a more efficient route if you're able to gather the people."
You seem ot be underestimating the differences between 25 and 10 man raids Tobold.
"25 people have to execute the fight correctly, as opposed to just 10" IS true.
On heroic mode there is not a single boss in ICC where half the raid can just walk off and die to and expect the other half of the raid to complete the encounter without missing a beat.
Even the easy fights like Marrowgar become impossible once enough dps/healers die, and lets not even look at hard enrage timers to beat like PP, Sindra, Fester, etc.
Even the normal versions of these encounters require everyones participation. Can you carry a few slackers in 25 man? Sure, but you can do the same in 10 man and it's definitely more of a challenge to have rely on those 24 other people not wiping the raid then it is 9.
And lets not talk about Lich King where a single person screwing up defile wipes the raid...
Anyways moving on to the actual topic I'm not surprised by this at all. Ever since the end of BC Blizzard has been closing the gear gap between top end raiders and people on the lower end of the scale.
With the ICC system the difference in tier gear between someone who does heroic 25s and someone who does heroic 10s isn't all that big to beging with so simply making the gear exactly the same between the two versions is logical progression in my mind.
As long as the rewards for doing 25 man are worth the extra effort required I'm all for this system.
I've always disliked that 10 man guilds end up getting pressured to either go 25 or bust because of gear differences, albiet small ones in ICC. I all for 10 man guilds being able to do their thing, progress, and get gear without having to suffer through that.
"25 people have to execute the fight correctly, as opposed to just 10" IS true.
On heroic mode there is not a single boss in ICC where half the raid can just walk off and die to and expect the other half of the raid to complete the encounter without missing a beat.
Even the easy fights like Marrowgar become impossible once enough dps/healers die, and lets not even look at hard enrage timers to beat like PP, Sindra, Fester, etc.
Even the normal versions of these encounters require everyones participation. Can you carry a few slackers in 25 man? Sure, but you can do the same in 10 man and it's definitely more of a challenge to have rely on those 24 other people not wiping the raid then it is 9.
And lets not talk about Lich King where a single person screwing up defile wipes the raid...
Anyways moving on to the actual topic I'm not surprised by this at all. Ever since the end of BC Blizzard has been closing the gear gap between top end raiders and people on the lower end of the scale.
With the ICC system the difference in tier gear between someone who does heroic 25s and someone who does heroic 10s isn't all that big to beging with so simply making the gear exactly the same between the two versions is logical progression in my mind.
As long as the rewards for doing 25 man are worth the extra effort required I'm all for this system.
I've always disliked that 10 man guilds end up getting pressured to either go 25 or bust because of gear differences, albiet small ones in ICC. I all for 10 man guilds being able to do their thing, progress, and get gear without having to suffer through that.
"Less leeway for error in 10 mans.
Easier for hard core raiders to put together 10 man team that can raid.
Thus hard core raiders will do 10 mans because of logistical issues."
@ Sam. Eh your logic doesn't really pan out there man. You have to remember that hardcore raiders raid for more then just gear. Just because 10 mans will drop the same ilvl loot doesn't mean all bleeding edge 25 man guilds will go 10 man.
Chances are if you're in a high end 25 man guild now, you will still be a high end 25 man guild when Cata ships. 10 man will still be viewed as the lesser tier to any serious 25 man guild. Not to mention that 25 man progression will still be whats valued most.
Easier for hard core raiders to put together 10 man team that can raid.
Thus hard core raiders will do 10 mans because of logistical issues."
@ Sam. Eh your logic doesn't really pan out there man. You have to remember that hardcore raiders raid for more then just gear. Just because 10 mans will drop the same ilvl loot doesn't mean all bleeding edge 25 man guilds will go 10 man.
Chances are if you're in a high end 25 man guild now, you will still be a high end 25 man guild when Cata ships. 10 man will still be viewed as the lesser tier to any serious 25 man guild. Not to mention that 25 man progression will still be whats valued most.
I have no clue about this, but were 10-man ICC and 25-man ICC supposed to be similar in difficulty except for the size?
If so, does it say anything when the top guilds finished off ICC-10 (not only with their mains but also with alts) long before they finished ICC-25?
I just don't see how they are going to maintain a 10-man run being the same difficulty as a 25.
You want to know what makes 25 so difficult? The 15 extra people showing up and making mistakes!!!
If so, does it say anything when the top guilds finished off ICC-10 (not only with their mains but also with alts) long before they finished ICC-25?
I just don't see how they are going to maintain a 10-man run being the same difficulty as a 25.
You want to know what makes 25 so difficult? The 15 extra people showing up and making mistakes!!!
Nills, the gear is what keeps people coming back again and again and again. I think people would be happy to kill a boss once just for the experience. But then when they run out of bosses they stop subbing. Gear is the incentive to raid the same place for months and extend your time in game.
raiding 4 nights a week means that in cata you will be doing the same 10 or 25 men (canno switch from one to the other during the same week) raid four times. Nowadays you can do 10 men when for whatever reason you dont have 25 men ready to go. And if you are saved in 25 men and one night too many ppl are present you can pug 10 men and play. In a cata world, content will have to come out at a faster rate ?
@Toxic:
That only party applies to me. And tehrefore I doubt it applies to most WoW players.
When I had full T9 (and no option to start heroic versions) I spent my time playing BGs.
I couldn't gain any items doing that, but WoW itself is actually fun. Sometimes Blizzad seems to doubt it, but really: WoW itself is fun!
Actually, that's also why it is so successful! If the whole trick were to create an item grind, I'd already be the richest guy on the planet. :)
In classic WoW I spent months playing BGs, just for the fun of it. I played quake deathmatch for years, always the same maps, mostly the same (serious) opponents.
I like the 'flow' of it.
That only party applies to me. And tehrefore I doubt it applies to most WoW players.
When I had full T9 (and no option to start heroic versions) I spent my time playing BGs.
I couldn't gain any items doing that, but WoW itself is actually fun. Sometimes Blizzad seems to doubt it, but really: WoW itself is fun!
Actually, that's also why it is so successful! If the whole trick were to create an item grind, I'd already be the richest guy on the planet. :)
In classic WoW I spent months playing BGs, just for the fun of it. I played quake deathmatch for years, always the same maps, mostly the same (serious) opponents.
I like the 'flow' of it.
@Nils
Just because you find it fun to waste time in pointless activities doesn't mean that's fun to everyone. Fun should not be a factor when we're discussing effectiveness.
Just because you find it fun to waste time in pointless activities doesn't mean that's fun to everyone. Fun should not be a factor when we're discussing effectiveness.
For those that say 25-mans are harder...
You all are looking at raiding right NOW, when indeed 25-mans are more difficult. This is also very influenced by the fact that 25-mans drop better gear and is thus more difficultly tuned. Many 10-man strict guilds report that 10-mans are quite hard without the 25-man gear to support them.
Thus, it is entirely possible that Blizzard can make 10-mans just as difficult as 25-mans. And don't forget there are some encounters in WOTLK where the 10-man version is harder (e.g. Sarth 3d).
You all are looking at raiding right NOW, when indeed 25-mans are more difficult. This is also very influenced by the fact that 25-mans drop better gear and is thus more difficultly tuned. Many 10-man strict guilds report that 10-mans are quite hard without the 25-man gear to support them.
Thus, it is entirely possible that Blizzard can make 10-mans just as difficult as 25-mans. And don't forget there are some encounters in WOTLK where the 10-man version is harder (e.g. Sarth 3d).
My prediction is that some 25-man raiding guilds will dissolve because the best players who don't want to carry people will just form their own 10-man grp. Less hassle and less drama.
However, for the top-guilds and people committed to 25-man raiding, their raids will be stronger than ever. You can bet that their recruits will be ones committed to 25-man raiding.
If I were to make an overall prediction, I will say there will be fewer 25-man guilds but not by as much as some commentators are saying. And after all, there will still be more gear and badges from 25-mans.
However, for the top-guilds and people committed to 25-man raiding, their raids will be stronger than ever. You can bet that their recruits will be ones committed to 25-man raiding.
If I were to make an overall prediction, I will say there will be fewer 25-man guilds but not by as much as some commentators are saying. And after all, there will still be more gear and badges from 25-mans.
@Nils
Why don't you love me? I'm actual more understanding than the other Gevlon. Contrary to him, i can listen and I'm open to other's ideas. Also, my English is better and i have a sense of humor.
Why don't you love me? I'm actual more understanding than the other Gevlon. Contrary to him, i can listen and I'm open to other's ideas. Also, my English is better and i have a sense of humor.
It's a huge change. One of the major reasons that "raiding" was perceived as easier in Wrath is because you could practice each raid twice.
10-man was little different than 25-man, so if you mastered a boss in 10-man then going to the 25-man wasn't much more difficult. And in some cases was even easier.
It's also a huge change in that it cuts the amount of things a player can do in half. Perhaps not a big deal right now when there are lots of Raid dungeons -- but consider that when Wrath released there were only 4 raids, three of which were 1-boss mini-raids that took 20 minutes.
10-man was little different than 25-man, so if you mastered a boss in 10-man then going to the 25-man wasn't much more difficult. And in some cases was even easier.
It's also a huge change in that it cuts the amount of things a player can do in half. Perhaps not a big deal right now when there are lots of Raid dungeons -- but consider that when Wrath released there were only 4 raids, three of which were 1-boss mini-raids that took 20 minutes.
@ fake-Gevlon:
They're not getting rid of badges.Try again.(you're also doing a bad job at copying Gevlon. First guy was better. I don't even have to click your name to check.)
@ Dwism
They're saying badges will come faster in 25s, but that doesn't mean you can't just make up for it by running a few heroics. (there will be a new cap per week on how many you can get). So 'faster' may just save heroics/weekly raid quest time. Even if 25's offer a higher total cap of badge, imho it's not a big enough incentive.
So i have to wait a month longer to cap out my badge purchases? So what? I might also lose out on a legendary, i suppose. In return, i get:
The same gear/ same difficulty
A much smaller skill delta
Less organization
More stable/reliable raid team
I know our 'a' and 'b' teams have a huge difference. Our A team is a top 100 US guild on 10man. go to 25s, and our progression/cohesion takes a huge dive. (it's not because we overgeared the encounters). When you look at the people on the top of the meters, it's always always always populated with that A team. Same with attendance. It's the same people who are 'b team' who:
Can't bite people on BQL
Die to blistering cold
Can't dodge Defile
And so on and so forth. That's not to say everyone in 25man is terrible, there are a few who can keep up. But there's a big and sudden gap between about 10-14ish and 15+ people, skill wise. It’s a lot more frustrating when it’s the same 8 or so who are always a bit behind on the learning curve.
Basically what Jye said: So far, i'm seeing a split down into 10 mans as far easier and less of a hassle. It probably won't even be too hard to prune the guild down if we chose too, because of natural attrition during the pre-Cata lull. So far my biggest motivations for 25 mans are that they’re considered “the real raids”, I prefer 25 people better (the poor encounter scaling is another issue), and gear. But mostly it’s the ‘they’re the big boy raids’ that’s the attraction. I’d be happy with 10man, but it just isn’t done right in Wotlk. Abilities like Valkyrs, Defile, BQL bloodbolt, are all jokes compared to 25.Essentially, i can't see why most people won't just do what the real Gevlon said.
@Bhagpuss:
Exactly. you'd think people wouldn't care, but you'd be amazed at the threads that pop up stating that the best gear should be craftable/farmable, even though they don't raid. It's possible it's the minority though, as it is forums, and not many people post there.
It’s possible I am biased because it’s extremely hard to recruit people nowadays, and the skill delta is just a bit too big. Maybe that’s not normal?
They're not getting rid of badges.Try again.(you're also doing a bad job at copying Gevlon. First guy was better. I don't even have to click your name to check.)
@ Dwism
They're saying badges will come faster in 25s, but that doesn't mean you can't just make up for it by running a few heroics. (there will be a new cap per week on how many you can get). So 'faster' may just save heroics/weekly raid quest time. Even if 25's offer a higher total cap of badge, imho it's not a big enough incentive.
So i have to wait a month longer to cap out my badge purchases? So what? I might also lose out on a legendary, i suppose. In return, i get:
The same gear/ same difficulty
A much smaller skill delta
Less organization
More stable/reliable raid team
I know our 'a' and 'b' teams have a huge difference. Our A team is a top 100 US guild on 10man. go to 25s, and our progression/cohesion takes a huge dive. (it's not because we overgeared the encounters). When you look at the people on the top of the meters, it's always always always populated with that A team. Same with attendance. It's the same people who are 'b team' who:
Can't bite people on BQL
Die to blistering cold
Can't dodge Defile
And so on and so forth. That's not to say everyone in 25man is terrible, there are a few who can keep up. But there's a big and sudden gap between about 10-14ish and 15+ people, skill wise. It’s a lot more frustrating when it’s the same 8 or so who are always a bit behind on the learning curve.
Basically what Jye said: So far, i'm seeing a split down into 10 mans as far easier and less of a hassle. It probably won't even be too hard to prune the guild down if we chose too, because of natural attrition during the pre-Cata lull. So far my biggest motivations for 25 mans are that they’re considered “the real raids”, I prefer 25 people better (the poor encounter scaling is another issue), and gear. But mostly it’s the ‘they’re the big boy raids’ that’s the attraction. I’d be happy with 10man, but it just isn’t done right in Wotlk. Abilities like Valkyrs, Defile, BQL bloodbolt, are all jokes compared to 25.Essentially, i can't see why most people won't just do what the real Gevlon said.
@Bhagpuss:
Exactly. you'd think people wouldn't care, but you'd be amazed at the threads that pop up stating that the best gear should be craftable/farmable, even though they don't raid. It's possible it's the minority though, as it is forums, and not many people post there.
It’s possible I am biased because it’s extremely hard to recruit people nowadays, and the skill delta is just a bit too big. Maybe that’s not normal?
Others hav addressed your comments on the outlook for 10/25 man raiding in Cataclysm but I wanted to touch on your last point:
"Supposedly raiding in Cataclysm will be somewhat less button mashing twitchy, and give somewhat more opportunity to play your class well. Larger health pools compared to incoming damage and outgoing heals will result in less "lets spam the fastest heal all the time" healing, especially since mana efficiency will also make a comeback. I'm not sure if the average raider nowadays is actually able to play his class really well, or whether the last two expansions just taught him fast reaction skills without having to spend much thought on what button would be best to hit. If raiding goes back to be more similar to raiding in vanilla WoW, some people are in for a surprise, because with just the set of twitch skills they acquired in WotLK raiding they wouldn't have gotten past Razorgore."
This is patently false for near any definition of "average raider." Raiding in Wrath has at times demanded faster reaction times and allowed for smaller margins of error in movement/positioning than in the past. However, these requirements came on top of standard benchmarks of performance like enrage timers or phases in a fight that required the coordinated use of defensive cooldowns between the tanks and healers in order to survive. Festergut, for instance, when he was first released and especially for a strict 10 man group required a strategy for healing/tanking that no amount of spastic key clicking would substitute for, on top of a hard 5 minute time limit for the fight.
Modern raiding simply asks more of the average player. You have to move in accordance with boss abilities/special events, change targets quickly, quickly coordinate among other players, and perform your role well. There's a reason that a lot of "average raiders" weren't getting past the first wing of ICC until recently. They fail at one of those requirements and in my experience, it has mostly been the latter.
"Supposedly raiding in Cataclysm will be somewhat less button mashing twitchy, and give somewhat more opportunity to play your class well. Larger health pools compared to incoming damage and outgoing heals will result in less "lets spam the fastest heal all the time" healing, especially since mana efficiency will also make a comeback. I'm not sure if the average raider nowadays is actually able to play his class really well, or whether the last two expansions just taught him fast reaction skills without having to spend much thought on what button would be best to hit. If raiding goes back to be more similar to raiding in vanilla WoW, some people are in for a surprise, because with just the set of twitch skills they acquired in WotLK raiding they wouldn't have gotten past Razorgore."
This is patently false for near any definition of "average raider." Raiding in Wrath has at times demanded faster reaction times and allowed for smaller margins of error in movement/positioning than in the past. However, these requirements came on top of standard benchmarks of performance like enrage timers or phases in a fight that required the coordinated use of defensive cooldowns between the tanks and healers in order to survive. Festergut, for instance, when he was first released and especially for a strict 10 man group required a strategy for healing/tanking that no amount of spastic key clicking would substitute for, on top of a hard 5 minute time limit for the fight.
Modern raiding simply asks more of the average player. You have to move in accordance with boss abilities/special events, change targets quickly, quickly coordinate among other players, and perform your role well. There's a reason that a lot of "average raiders" weren't getting past the first wing of ICC until recently. They fail at one of those requirements and in my experience, it has mostly been the latter.
It doesn't really matter what Blizzard does. If the rewards are achieveable and worthwhile, people will raid regardless. If it's too hard, only hard core types will do it.
If the rewards are useless, raiding will stop. I cite Naxx, Ulduar, Black Temple and all the other dead content as examples.
If the rewards are useless, raiding will stop. I cite Naxx, Ulduar, Black Temple and all the other dead content as examples.
You seem ot be underestimating the differences between 25 and 10 man raids Tobold.
You're talking about WotLK raids, I'm talking about Cataclysm raids as the devs said they would make them. It is perfectly possible to make raid scenarios in which X% of your raiders failing still ends up with your raid killing the boss. And that amount of X can be tuned. So if the Blizzard devs tune the design, it is totally possible that the 25-man raid is not harder than the 10-man version, as advertised. That just wasn't the design in the current expansion.
You're talking about WotLK raids, I'm talking about Cataclysm raids as the devs said they would make them. It is perfectly possible to make raid scenarios in which X% of your raiders failing still ends up with your raid killing the boss. And that amount of X can be tuned. So if the Blizzard devs tune the design, it is totally possible that the 25-man raid is not harder than the 10-man version, as advertised. That just wasn't the design in the current expansion.
(Could you ban these fake-Gevlons, Tobold?)
For what crime? Actually the real Gevlon is the worse troll, and as he said, the fake Gevlon is the nicer of the two. And if I ban him for you, he'll be back as fake Nils. :)
For what crime? Actually the real Gevlon is the worse troll, and as he said, the fake Gevlon is the nicer of the two. And if I ban him for you, he'll be back as fake Nils. :)
Well, for trolling. But you're right. It's probably pointless.
However, he should learn to beat Gevlon with his own weapons and not just immitate him.
Gevlon has so many self-contraticting statements; it should be easy.
However, he should learn to beat Gevlon with his own weapons and not just immitate him.
Gevlon has so many self-contraticting statements; it should be easy.
Ask yourself this: "Have I ever cheered at the dowining of a particularly difficult raid boss, only to be cursing (out of vent, or maybe sometimes in) that the gear that I wanted didn't drop?"
I hope I'm not the only one who has experienced this, otherwise what I say is irrelevant. I think people enjoy the fights, but they enjoy it more when they get the loot drops after the fights. Somehow, someway, gear becomes important to just about everyone. I don't know exactly why, but it appears to be a major reason why people raid.
It's all speculation anyway, whether 25's will die and 10's will thrive. Maybe some bit of info that hasn't been released will reverse this...like all the details on guild progression, etc. But if people get their gear, who will really care what the consequences are?
I hope I'm not the only one who has experienced this, otherwise what I say is irrelevant. I think people enjoy the fights, but they enjoy it more when they get the loot drops after the fights. Somehow, someway, gear becomes important to just about everyone. I don't know exactly why, but it appears to be a major reason why people raid.
It's all speculation anyway, whether 25's will die and 10's will thrive. Maybe some bit of info that hasn't been released will reverse this...like all the details on guild progression, etc. But if people get their gear, who will really care what the consequences are?
With WotLK, the theory was that you could have 10 man raiding guilds. If you had 9-12 friends who wanted to raid the same way/time it was great. But the loot difference meant that all other 10 mans were just a turnover as people got geared and moved on. usually when a main tank/healer did it, the 10 man guild fell apart.
Cata will be the opposite. The best 10ish players from existing guilds will go do a 10 man raiding guild. My guess is few RLs will want the extra hassle.
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Cata will be the opposite. The best 10ish players from existing guilds will go do a 10 man raiding guild. My guess is few RLs will want the extra hassle.
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