Tobold's Blog
Friday, May 07, 2010
 
The biggest EVE review ever!

Also the one with the most authors. My EVE posts have provoked such a huge number of responses of EVE players, that it would be a shame to leave all that information rotting in the comment section. Therefore I have compiled it into a "review" of EVE, consisting of excerpts from the hundreds of comments EVE players left on my blog. Unsorted, but in chronological order. I'm not giving out a review score, recommendation, or any other judgement, I let you judge EVE for yourself from what the players say about it.
Don't spend any significant amount of time mining as a new player. It's not fun, and it's not profitable until you have the skills and the capital to buy and fly a good mining ship.

I seriously discourage you from mining, especially at the start. It is incredibly boring, and not even very profitable especially given your interest in the economic game. Many people like it because it is relatively safe, requires absolutely zero thought, and is a very slow but steady income stream. But it is by far the worst means of making ISK due to the sheer boredom factor.

Combat may seem boring initially, but that's because you're in a rookie ship without many modules.

But be warned, PvP in EvE often consists of hours of slow or idle activity followed by a short burts of furious combat.

EVE's learning skills are the poorest design decision in the game - and, of course, one which is vehemently defended against any criticism by people who think it adds "depth" to the game. Basically, the "correct" course of action for a new player is to skill up learning skills before any actual skills that let you DO anything. The result being, either you're completely ineffectual and unable to do anything or enjoy yourself for the first month of your subscription; or, you're consciously gimping your progression by skipping the learning skills and actually learning how to fly ships and use weapons.

I think now is an appropriate time to link to the infamous EVE learning curve cartoon: http://www.eve-pirate.com/uploads/LearningCurve.jpg

First commandment of EVE - never fly what you cannot afford to lose.

Don't trust or believe anyone (especially in the Jita system).
Don't fleet with anyone you don't know.
Don't take anything labelled 'free'.

I agree that PLEX are a problem though. I think in theory players are intended to spend time earning money while their skills level up. Particularly for those interested in the economic aspect of the game, it's far more efficient for a newbie to sell PLEX than to play the game as intended.

The system in eve for advancement plus Plex and the near requirement for players to also have a second (or third account) is clearly designed by CCP to increase profits.

EVE had to come up with a skill system that leaves players freedom to do what they want. They achieved this. But they also achieved that players sometimes stay subscribed just to train their skills. You can also never catch up the time you did not stay subscribed just to train skills, not even if you are playing a lot. That is the drawback of the system.

EVE will totally let you flounder if you don't set yourself some goals.

Lots of people also advise against training learning skills. I don't understand why you would start a game based upon skills and not take skills seriously. If you have no patience, do a FPS. Otherwise, buy a plex and train skills for 2-5 weeks and then "start" EVE.

Mining is unfortunately a necessary evil of EvE, in much the same way that having a job is a necessary evil in real life (unless you enjoy your job of course). Mining as part of an occasional group is far better (and more efficient) than doing it solo because you had your last ship popped by npc's.

Unlike other MMO's, the Eve Online universe is huge. Chances are you won't see other players as a noob except for the few seconds docking or undocking.

Remember your "forced grouping" post? I am definitely old enough to not like forced grouping. One of the good and worst things of EVE is that it is a dark, cruel place with fraud allowed. A very real downside is that joining a corp is not without risk. Someone can join a corp just so they are now allowed to destroy your 700m ISK (US$50) freighter without repercussions. People stealing from corps is quite common. A 2,000 person alliance can be impressive. But forced grouping in EVE has far more downsides than other MMOs.

The overview is just amazing. In both good and bad ways. Its hugely powerful and customizable. Its close to impenetrable too.

Eve isn't very newbie friendly at all. Though, it's gotten somewhat better since the first time I tried it.

Well, first of all EVE isn't a game that is "friendly to everyone" :), and it pretty much is never going to be given CCP's track record.

In fact, you should pretty much accept the idea that the tutorials are not going to give you anything other than an extremely basic idea of how to do things, if even that.

eve isnt a solo game it just isnt. and the advanced eve where everyone that loves the game ends up and newbies dont see right away, isnt handed to you on a silver platter it comes from experience and listening to others.

I think in practice Eve isn't a sandbox for a new player. Most people are told join a corp, run missions and that's what they do. People talk about other newbie professions but most of them really aren't. If you go pirate with a new character you are a free kill to older players. Ninja salvaging involves one of the most difficult skillsets to get the hang of. Hauling NPC goods is no longer an economically viable profession. Zero, zero space is out of bounds for newbies. There's trading which is just spreadsheeting and mining which isn't really a game since the only reason to do it is to progress in Eve while concentrating on something else. (I sometimes mine in Eve on one PC while playing AoC on the other). So where is this sandbox of infinite possibilities? Join corp, run missions.

However...i agree with you that mining is boring as hell...

Nobody really cares how much ISK you have atm. The important question is: How fast can you replace the ISK you just lost. And again nobody cares if you replace them by scamming, missioning, begging or selling PLEX, thats totally up to you.

To some players the high end politics and PvP of EVE is the 'hight of freedom and power' but to me it always seemed very hollow. It felt too 'sandboxy' in the 'little kids playing stupid games in a sandbox' kind of way. I saw nothing creative in that aspect of the game and it seemed the design of the game wanted to force me toward that path by making any part of the game that was enjoyable to me either hit a brick wall or become incredibly boring.

The days it takes to become proficient enough in one area to accomplish things alone or with your corp is, relatively, about 2 seconds in MMO time.

Anyways, one thing I wanted to mention. Ive heard a few people groaning about how even though its supposed to be sandbox, whenever someone asks what they should do its "run missions, join a corp". This is for very simple and logical reasons. If someone is at the point still (as a new player) where they don't have any idea what they want to do, or even what they can do; then the best thing they can do is run missions. This has the twofold effect of teaching them while segwaying nicely from other MMOs, and giving them a taste of different aspects of gameplay. Likewise, joining a corp is the biggest step you take in EvE as it is the key to accomplishing greater things. Ever heard the phrase greater than the sum of its parts? Thats an EvE corp. Simply put, a corp allows you to experience gameplay you never could alone. In a dangerous world like EvE, you need strength in numbers. You will find that the most boring activities (mining for example) can become much more profitable and fun with a corp. Running a 10 person mining session not only multiplies your haul (pooling resources like ships, skills, and cargo space is essential) but is usually pretty entertaining. I remember times we'd lay claim to an asteroid belt and start our op. Then punk kids started infecting the system. We had our big ships either leave the system or go stealth, and left the small miners alone, so when the griefer showed up he had his shiny new ship blasted away. Its times like this, where a completely unexpected and unscripted moment makes you feel like you are really in this world, that I love EvE.

As reviewers have said over and over, Eve isn't for everyone, and I personally am glad it's not for everyone. Twitchy, button mashing, strobe-lit, attention deprived children need not apply. When you stand to lose a couple weeks of in-game mission farming to replace a lost ship, you tend not to go off half-cocked.

Have you been to Jita yet (busiest trade system in EVE). If you haven't I recommend creating a Caldari Alt and just flying there for a quick view of the seedier side of EVE. Every second offer in in local chat is an outright scam.

Oh, and taking hours to form up a gang, move into enemy territory just to find them holed up in a NPC station, waiting for action, and then going home. Not fun.

As silly as that sounds outside of EVE, it is quite common in EVE for people to take a security hit and lose a ship just to cause pain and suffering to another player. Someone with the EVE mindset but unfamiliar with you might ask themselves the question. Anonymous, unaccountable internet actions do not bring out the best in people, as you saw with your comment experiments. The downside of EVE's dark and complicated sandbox is that it brings out the worst of the worst. It is certainly one of the reasons EVE will be a niche not mainstream game.

What???? You got bored after mining for only four hours??? Go back to WoW you whining noob;) To be honest you lasted longer that I did. I gave up on mining after five minutes. However it has to be admitted that there are a lot of boring things you can do in EVE. Even pvp involves a lot of waiting around between bursts of action.

I got as far as the mining barge the last time I tried EVE but it was the realization of how much I could earn from selling the timecards weighed against the tedium of mining which killed that activity off for me. Trading went the same way for the same reason.

Remember; however boring ore mining may be, it's still more engaging than ice harvesting... (Tragically, I do a lot of both).

Mining does indeed become quite profitable using the more specialist ships and mining lasers. Really, mining as an activity in-game is really the domain of the multi-boxer... myself I had two pilots in hulks and a third in a hauler or an Orca (giving mining bonuses).

Eve's "Ponys" where called Zephyrs. They where a gift for chirstmas. I guess you know what happend, after some people undocked with them :(

I don't particularly like the skill system although I am a fan of EVE. To me the skill system is an artificial constraint on what you can and can't do in the game. Such a constraint goes against the idea of a sandbox game.

As a long time Eve player it doesn't feel weird...anymore. I am sitting on top of 4 accounts now, 2 of them are logged on daily, 1 about once a week and the last one just to change skills, since the alt on this one is just training strictly towards flying a supercarrier. It just opens up more options, since you have to specialise your alts to get really good in their fields of activity. My biggest problem when i got my second account was, that i didn't want to pay for two subscriptions, but i also changed my mind on that. Paying for four accounts is still cheaper than my other past time activities, so i got over it. Sometimes i pay with ISK, but most of the times i keep my ISK invested and pay with real money.

Why it would be weird if a online game would be played mostly offline and with no actual playing? I don't see any weirdness in that.

I also realise that people keeping up subs in order to skill up on accounts that are not actively being played is probably an essential revenue stream for CCP.

CCP has happened across a method of allowing strongly embedded players to invest further in their game of choice without causing widespread festering resentment amongst the player-base. That's awesome. Disclaimer: I control four EVE accounts. They're all as active as one mouse, three very large screens, and human frailty permits them to be.

The second account is being played like an apprentice. Doing all the dirty work, hauling industrial materials about, while studying up to do what the character REALLY wants to do: pilot a mining ship of their very own. And not just ANY mining ship. A HULK!

I think the big difference in how strange this seems is less the passive vs. active leveling system and more that in Eve you can only advance one character per account, which encourages second and third accounts. If you were playing your main and your alt was happily training away silently on the same account, nobody would think it odd at all. It's the paying for the second account to do so that makes it seem odd.

Honestly, one of the things that turned me off of Eve was the passive nature of it. No matter what I did I couldn't progress my character faster than the skill queue. I could, in fact, go out and make more money and better my situation but I couldn't progress "myself." It quickly became obvious to me that I was better off not playing than playing. When I got enough skills to "do what I want to do" I could then log in and enjoy that for a bit. Getting my first battleship was awesome and I really enjoyed running missions with it for a while but I quickly hit a stopping point again where it became time to just "wait it out." I think the paragraph makes perfect sense if you're willing to put up with the passive nature of the game.

There are capacity constraints in EVE. You may see a login queue. There can also be gate delays as you jump from one shard to another. And one hour of scheduled daily downtime, which is why you see the phrase "working 23/7" in posts.

The UI could really use a complete overhaul. Nested dropdown menus punish user errors quite severely (a lesson that Microsoft learnt painfully with pre-Vista Start Menus), and the lack of multithreading makes the UI feel very sluggish at times.

In Eve, you can spend an entire play session coordinating with your alliance to camp a particular gate, finally getting there, and over the next couple of hours shooting a couple of ships that have the bad luck to pick that route. Maybe if you're lucky a real battle will develop. And if you're even more lucky, you'll survive more than 10 minutes of that battle. The P:W (playing:waiting) ratio in Eve is far, far too low for a mainstream game.

anyone can probe you out and find you while you do your missions, this is how ninja salvagers make their living and how pirates shoot down people in low sec while doing missions.

If you plan on getting seriously in to missions then sadly you need to do a bit of forward planning. I wasted quite a while building up faction with a group who had no decent level 4 agents. Ideally you want a faction that has a level 4 combat focussed agent in an easy to get to 0.5 region of space. http://www.eve-agents.com/ is a good reference. Yet another spreadsheet to play with!

The only reason missions are boring is because you have to grind the same missions over and over again to build up faction in order to advance to the next level of missions (in order to grind them over and .....) . This is a big pity really because I have always thought that the missions are interesting and challenging PVE content the FIRST time you do them. Trying to do missions in a slightly underpowered ship (level 2 in destroyer for example) is a great way to learn about ship fitting.

Actually, here's how you trivialize all low-level EVE missions, including ones that spawn a bunch of ships on top of you.
* Fit long range weapons e.g. missiles
* As soon as you warp in and have ships on top of you, fly at max speed (afterburners on) in a random direction
* Once all enemies are an appropriate distance behind you (e.g. 15km), adjust your speed to keep pace with them, and start firing missiles.
* Try to ignore the boredom until they're all dead

Every time you leave dock there is some risk you will loose a ship. Maybe you weren't paying enough attention and got warp scrammed, maybe your drones wound up getting systematically taken out leaving you vulnerable to interceptor frigates, maybe it's just your 20th mission of the day and by gum you left all your scout drones at base for whatever reason. whatever the cause, no matter how much preparedness you invested in, your ship will at some point go boom. That's even without taking into account the manifold ways a griefer can help the process along.

Then there is how I have played eve to do missions. Have 3 accounts, Buy 6 Plex, Fit 2 BSs and a Cruiser, Multibox, Grind the mission.

In Eve, the fun really comes from the PvP side of the game, be it in industry or combat, because you are facing other human beings, with their own tendancies and tactics. For many of us, the PvE content is just a means to an end, that end being the "pvp game" in all it's forms.

EVE is not designed for the solo player.

Yes, unless you are part of a good size corp that you can do stuff with them and generally socialize to avoid getting bored, "leveling up" in EVE is rather a long process. When a year back I tried to move to the next ship, EVEMon told me I need 192 days. That's when I stopped logging.

When i see a plan that tells me it's gonna take say... 90+ days i'm like "WOOOOOT !! I am SOOO gonna rock when that's done ! Can't wait, getting on it RIGHT NOW !"

I think you've hit on something that's quite fundamental to Eve. It's a game that plays best if you're ok to leave it alone sometimes and play Eve Offline. I took quite a lot of breaks in my Eve playing and am now really loving it and playing it a lot. It's a pretty great feeling to leave it for a month come back and blast missions into dust that used to be too tough.

I was just reading a post on the EVE Forums where the responder told OP that two months was not a long training time.

Ah, the "NBSI" ("not blue? shoot it") principle.

There is an old adage that if you end up in a fair fight in Eve, someone made a mistake. If you look at the lore, New Eden is described as a nasty, violent, cutthroat galaxy. The game mechanics reflect that and by extension, so do the players. Philip Zimmbardo calls this the Lucifer Effect.

Unfortunately there is quite a sound strategic reason for what happened to you. The key to holding a piece of 0.0 space is to have full claim on its resources. If anyone can just waltz into that territory and use its resources the whole strategic advantage of claiming it would be made moot. You trespassed on their territory and got a shotgun blast in the face so you would not do it again. Plus you might have been a spy, scouting things out for an attack. Your mere presence in the area was a threat that had to be neutralized. You are upset for the wrong reasons. The PvP in EVE is based on very base RL principles and lacks the tools for players to civilize things properly. It is tribal based and you did not belong to the right tribe.

There might be some corps that don't shoot strangers on sight; most probably will, thinking you are either enemy spy or just a profiteer on their property.

CCP isn't stupid and the community of EVE is largely the result of game mechanics that encourage a cutthroat, shoot first ask questions later attitude. People are natural risk/reward optimizers. If you create a context in which people can exert their power over others with no potential recourse, guess what happens? Even Darkfall has had to progressively implement systems to safeguard new players, in essence adding in recourse, to discourage players from using the most optimal (and sadistic) strategy: gank newbs.

EVE is meant to be cutthroat and not friendly at all. The lore of New Eden support that. Very much like Cyberpunk in space. EVE is mainly about the PvP, and PvP is all about "if you're not on my team, you die". You weren't part of those 0.0 dwellers allies, hence you died. It's not about simple ganking. It's all about protecting their interests. Since there's no other way for them to keep intruders out of their space (you can't turn gates off), they have to shoot intruders. Just stopping you and telling you to go back through the gate might not work, as you could be a spy, or might try to flee somewhere else in the system once they stop scrambling you. It's not the players fault, it's the game. There's simply no other way to protect their space. Is it ganking? Not really. The gankers/griefers in EVE tend to can bait, scam people in highsec, or pirate in lowsec. You might not like that form of play, but it doesn't mean that EVE is broken.

What you experienced is how some people play this game. They log in, sit on a gate, and hope someone comes through. Sounds real exciting, huh?

Conquering nullsec is about creating your own end game. It is all about status, prestige, money and warfare. Every alliances wet dream is to get their name on this map: http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/influence.png . That map is a territorial map and basically says that your alliance has accomplished something in game. Other reasons for owning null sec space is ofcoz all the riches you get out of it by installing infrastructure hubs and the use of bridges (gates between far distant systems) so you can move gods to your null sec bases quickly. Nullsec also has conquerable stations and you can build your own stations if your alliance has enough money to do so, this is also one way of putting your "landmark" in the eve end game since these cant be destroyed. Industrialists also loves nullsec because the high end moon minerals they can get and high grade minerals from mining so they can buy nice shining ships and ofcoz, the possibility to put up POS:es so they can research and even build those null sec only capital ships. Ofcoz, just getting fat on nullsec will be boring in the end so some PvP oriented alliances ofcoz search out other people to destroy, eg defending their own territory or hunting in enemy alliances territory and looking for fights. Warfare might not be so fun (POS shooting etc) but it is essential for nullsec holding alliances. I personally think it is fun trying to out man your enemy and take territory, even if it ends up in a blob fest with lag.

The only thing less fun that being blown up the instant you go through a gate into a nullsec system? Sitting next to that gate waiting for someone to come through so you can blow them up.

Basically Eve is a basic model that WORKS but it's clunky as all hell. In a lot of ways it's a lot like EQ I, it encourages really handcore mentality and really caters to the hardcore long-term players.

For me, the issue is not player controlled 0.0. There is a perfectly good reason for them to kill everyone; they have claimed space and want to profit from it and don't want spies, pirates or vanguards in their space. Arguably in that environment, politics, planning and employee motivation are far more important than combat skills. At its best it could be epic. The fact that you would be just as dead in lo sec, for no real reason other than sadism is what I find annoying and pointless. Especially people who shoot new pilots in their rookie ships.

The constant sense of danger was one of the best facets of EVE for me. Every time I left the security of high sec space my heart started pumping faster. It turned what would otherwise have been very boring courier trips into a roller coaster ride of emotion. Whether there was a legitimate strategic reason why people were trying to kill me or whether they were just griefers looking to ruin someone else's day didn't matter a damn. The fact was a whole lot of people were out there trying to blow up my ship and pod me. I did lose ships and I did get podded many times and yes it always sucked but the times when I got away by the skin of my teeth as my screen flashed red and my body surged with adrenaline remain among my greatest video gaming moments ever. So this masochism is probably not everyone's cup of tea but I think that EVE without the danger would be a very boring game that would be even more niche than it is now.

Only to find that for all the hype people give EVE, theirs no "catching up", you can't even play hard-core to catch up due to the "EVE Offline" factor, and a new player is shut out of the political system and podded for transgressions they may not understand. All your posts about the greater meaning of this closed system are simply an impassioned warning - we have enough people in EVE, new players not welcome.

To get us hooked, we need some nice new-player-experience. Something EVE not only doesn't offer, but due to the skill system cannot offer.

In most cases, consider nullsec to hostile unless you belong to the residing alliance as almost all nullsec operates on the NBSI principal. The point is to keep people out of their space, and to try and keep a handle on intel being leaked out. I would wager that bullying has very little to do with it, think of it as SOP. It also has nothing to do with a strategic challenge, think of it as entering private property with 'Will shoot on sight' warnings posted.

In real life there is no such a thing as fair pvp. Eve simulates real life.

It's a GAME. That's the bottom line really, but I will expand upon that. It's also a game that you pay to play. When the peasants, which aren't a part of the ruling few get ganked over and over again WHATEVER THE REASON they will just stop playing.

They don't want you ratting, mining or possibly even traveling through that region without permission.

You might think you're just a frig, why not let me go ? Well you could be a spy, or you could cyno in capitals. So if you're not on the blue list you get destroyed, it's as simple as that.

I completely agree with whoever said the UI is awful though, that is probably the greatest of EVE's current failings.

But we're not on Earth in EVE. We're in new eden. A very cold harsh, dog eat dog universe ! That's where the roleplay comes in ;). That's the most basic thing you have to remember about Eve. Even if you don't pvp as in ship vs. ship.

Tobold's blog asks if camping gates in 0.0 is really the end game, if being the bigger bully is what people strive for in eve. Of course it isn't, but as your skills grow in-game, as you get better, fly more ships and learn to survive you begin to gather friends and form some kind of direction, be it mining, PvP or otherwise. Doing these things in a social structure makes life more interesting and also makes Eve or any MMO game interesting. Those pilots could have been camping that gate to deter numerous small gangs from infringing on their space, protecting their miners, or just hoping for another similar sized gang to engage in a ~goodfight~ with.

EVE's design includes features that touch on many of your points. It does indeed have substantial restrictions on PvP options - or at least it has large core areas of space where the consequences of random PvP is sufficiently severe that only lolsociopaths engage in it or for the less pathologically comedic the financial benefits have to be substantial (aka suicide ganking). Most of EVE's population lives there. It's called "hi-sec", it's "safer space". Ganking still happens, but it's an exception that provides thrills-and-chills rather than the daily rule. It's probably fair to describe the majority of EVE's player population as risk-averse, that's why hi-sec exists, or rather because CCP built it that way, people were prepared to come and stay.

EVE, at it's core, is an economic simulation powered in part by demand caused by from ship losses in null-sec.

I have been playing EVE for a couple of weeks now and I can say that while EVE is interesting, it is not exciting yet. The "yet" part is important I think and I am prepared to be patient and continue the learning process.

Null sec is dangerous, it is very much a feudal society, with coalitions coming and going, with standings being used to identify who you'd should trust, distrust, and hate. If you don't want that, then live in high sec. It's a perfectly valid choice, with many people making their entire career based on doing this, focussing on being the best and richest. Personally, I love the thrill of all out war, the fact that it is not fair, that it is evil, nasty, and vindictive; is for me a cathartic release.

Once again, New Eden is a cold harsh universe.

For a lot of people, a world where everyone is a hero is even less fun, and less realistic, than the mechanics / environment in a game like EVE.

"Come play our game because you are shlub and want to be lead around by the hand by people who have actually done the work/research for you." Yeah, that would move boxes. Not only is the average player not likely to become Alexander, but they aren't even interested when they realize the responsibility.

But when EvE and Darkfall actively promote awesome space battles and castle sieges, yet the reality of the game is months of PvE and grinding, the problem is with the devs, not the player who is lead to believe that awesome PvP will happen as a daily part of gameplay.

The world is full of a@@hats. At least EVE empowers you -- as a gamer -- to avoid and/or get back at them.

EVE PvP should be compared to UO, not WoW. When you die the cost of death is everything you brought to the scene.

The 'heart' of EVE is the PvP and the politics of 0.0 space. I find the base PvP of EVE too uninteresting and the 'meaningful goals' mostly self-delusion. At the same time I find the politics to be petty and merely a way for bored players to spice things up. I like to see myself too much as a 'rugged individual' type to participate in the 'cog in a machine' system that creates.

Watch any 3 children playing together for long enough and you will see a 2 vs 1 conflict developing. It is in our nature and EVE and Darkfall allow us to revel in it, indeed even say that is the way of the game.

Strategy is about shaping a conflict in such a way that all battles you need to win are unfair.

Most do camp either to protect their territory from cyno ships, spies, ninja miners, to take your ship components, etc. They have very legitimate reasons for it. They don't have a way to ask for your noobie badge so they can let you go on your merry way even if you aren't a spy or picking up a ship deeper in from another station. So yes they're going to blast you, and you know what, even popping a newbie ship will at least keep them on edge and provide some fun until the bigger targets do come through.

the more strategy there is the to gameplay the more likely that tactical combat will be wildly unfair (since the whole POINT of having a strategy is to make things tactically unfair).

All of this has absolutely nothing to do with fair - fair is a fallacy.

I personally like the adrenaline i feel when I fly an expensive ship through dangerous space. without that risk of sudden and violent death looming on the horizon, it would be much more boring.

The point is that in a very competitive PvP game, whoever starts first has more chances of winning. And for a new player, starting today, he has a very long road to take if he wants to be a competitive part of the action.

You need more then a few weeks to be competitive, but you don't need years, just a few months if you specialize.

Eve isn't for the instant gratification / ADHD crowd, it requires perspective, patience and endurance. Finally, on fair fights, I would concede that Eve is a haven for griefers.

Like I said a couple of time before, New Eden is a dark, harsh, rough universe. Expect to be ganked at every gate, expect all your mining cans to be flipped and expect every contract on the market to be a scam. That is the harsh reality of Eve. Some people like it, most people don't.

This isn't WoW. Everything isn't handed to you on a silver platter.

Well, to be able to play a PvP game you have to be able to not take it personally when a bunch of more-experienced players gank you on a regular basis. Its something not everyone can do. I know I can't. It does seem kinda anti-social to me, but hey, its not real-life, its a game. The attraction of these games for some players is the steep learning curve and level of difficulty. This high level of difficulty makes the game more rewarding when you finally are able to achieve some level of success in PvP.

It is very difficult to pay back someone for a wrong that they've done to you.

I just think you aren't understanding the reasons for gatecamping. It isn't because they enjoy beating up people weaker than them (which is what I associate with "bully"), but rather that they are protecting their home space. What they enjoy is being part of an alliance that owns some space in the game, and camping key gates that are entrances to that space is what you have to do to keep that space.

Of course podkilling occurs in 0.0. Podkilling is an annoyance and if you want people out of your system, annoying them is one very effective way to do so.

Yeah, there are no fair fights in EVE. Given that the actual combat mechanics (i.e, clicking on stuff) is stupidly easy, setting up these fights is about the only meaningful interaction the players have in PVP.

I've been playing EvE long enough to realize that "fair fight" doesn't exist in their vocabulary. the more UNeven fight (in their favor obviously) the better the fight.

As somebody who has spent hours camping (0.0 entry) gates, I'm going to have to disagree with that strongly. Gate camping is part of routine maintenance of your space, exerting influence so hostiles can't just wander through your space and kill miners and such. It's something you do when there's nothing interesting going on, it's incredibly boring and people who can afford stuff worth stealing very rarely jump through without a scout (unless, as in one memorable case, they are drunk).

It sounds like the game of travelling in nulsec is a geopolitical game of diplomacy, subterfuge, and overt war as opposed to a sportive PvP combat game. So if you like playing that kind of game, then Eve sounds fine. If you are looking for Battlegrounds or some other sportive PvP combat, it sounds like Eve for the most part won't provide that (unless you decide to set up your own league).

I think Eve is ultimately all about the nullsec wars. Sure most people are in high sec but they're in high sec planning to take over the galaxy one day.

I believe EVE is a "niche" game in that it appeals to a smaller spectrum of gamers. I also judge EVE to be a fairly successful niche game. EVE is niche because of the sandbox-like nature and "war-like" PvP combat.

If you wanted to play cooperatively with other players, then EVE seems among the last games I would want to try that in. The scams, threats, spys, and players who join just to be able to kill you without consequences mean that people are quite slow to trust you and you should be even slower (never?) to trust them.

People are still missing the point and lashing out with condescending responses. You can call it “defending territory”, but it’s still a form of ganking or bullying when they spend long periods at a time camping out in one spot for the purpose of killing any random person there. It’s not the fact that they killed him, it’s that the game encourages them to wait there for anyone. If you can get past your anger at Tobold for badmouthing your game with words that seem to personally offend you, then you’d see that his participation has nothing to do with his point. Yes, he had lots of warning, yes he knew it would happen, and yes it’s not common, but it’s still a form of PvP that he wouldn’t find fun on either side, and neither would I. And that’s the whole point.

It sounds to me like "fun and interesting for new players" activities that have been suggested all involve avoiding combat. Mining, hauling freight, maybe a bit of exploring but "bring a cloak" so you can hide. Survivable battles do not appear to be an option, until you have invested considerable time. I can see that some would enjoy this, but it has zero appeal to me, and probably little appeal to most new players.

If you enjoy scanning, then do that. For more of a challenge, try to scan down other players (you can either do this for the purposes of invading their mission and stealing salvage/loot from them, or 'ganking' them, or simply for shits and giggles) For even more of a challenge try scanning other players down in low security space, where they should be on the lookout for your probes and will be moving around alot more.

EVE is not fair, it was never supposed to be fair and not a single EVE player in his right mind would claim that EVE and especially EVE PvP is fair. If you get into a fair fight in EVE then your either at Alliance Tournament or you messed up. To make this clear i'm going to quote CCP Wrangler, who is Senior Community Manager at CCP: "EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for."

The game isn't for everyone, it's niche. That means people who love the game love the game, and get upset when they're told it's bad. Because it's not bad for them, and they don't want other people who haven't played the game yet to hear it's bad.

Eve is more than a game. It is the most complete example of a virtual world that I know. A dark dangerous unfair place with few limits where you live or die by your wits. Eve is the closest simulacrum of the Hollywood wild west we have.

I think PvP inside an MMO really teaches one thing; what society would be like without police. And I'm already quite sure that they both really suck.

I could also point out that you aren't ganking a small group. The EVE naught dot naught community includes the guys from SA. If I were too enumerate what they would do if you were even remotely close to ganking them it would probably come across as a threat which is not my intention here.

Comments:
Nicely done Tobold. Thanks for that. Have you thought about disabling comments on this post so as not to distract from it? Feel free to delete mine if you feel its a good idea.
 
Tobold,

There is no doubt that you have highs and lows. Humanity, after all, seems to afflict you as as much as the next person.

With this post right here, you have certainly hit a real high note. Turned negative to positive, put positive to good use. And even though the review has many authors, it was an impressive effort of you to put it together in such a short time. Indeed, it truly is that seven-year review.

Thank you.
 
tl;dr

:)

but seriously. Well played sir. Well played.
 
I think this is most interesting question:

"How does one avoid the emotionally compounding nature of an emotional state under criticism?"

I believe it is very difficult. The seed, that small personal pain from whatever source, quickly sprouts and, with each attempt by others to invalidate the significance of that pain, grows into such an emotional behemoth that it produces, sadly, the posts we have at hand: something so fanatic, desperate, and frankly below the author, that it should signal but a white flag, an exhausted plea by a frenzied blogger to let this rest.
 
Got to hand it to you, this one is well done :).
 
Well, crap. The previous comment was really for the previous post, the one in which Tobold equates his blog to him ganking his readerbase.

This post, thank god, seems to have taken tongue-in-cheek turn.

Well played Tobold. Well played.
 
Nice bit of judo, this.
 
Definitely tl;dr, but well done anyway.

(and at 10pm BST why is it listed as Friday - Belgium is only 1 hour ahead of the UK?)
 
nice
 
My my, Tobold, you've been busy. Classy verbal riposte ;)
 
Just a comment on the last few posts... Here's why you're getting the reaction you're getting:

I think this would have been a lot more rational if you didn't use the "bully" statement. In fact, your whole argument makes sense without attributing Eve PVP'ers in that way.

To take what you did as an analogy in my world… you're learning the game of poker, and we're playing friendly. I show you my hand, and its Ace Ace. You keep your hand secret it’s a Seven and a Two. You bet out, and I call.
The flop comes down Ace Ace Nine. You know enough about playing to know that my 4 aces beat anything you could possibly make on the next two cards. With your crap-tastic hand, you push all-in…. Somewhat puzzled, (I know you know what I hold) I call you for all of your chips. Then you leave the poker game, and tell all your friends I'm a bully for taking all your chips even though you are a beginner.

I played a trial of Eve at the bequest of a friend and didn't like it. I don't really like world PVP much… (though I can be faulted for starting in WOW on on a PVP server at launch). Poker is much more fun. Give it a try.

And the only time people call others names in Poker is if they want to make that person start to steam so that they will play using their emotions instead of their wits. And this is what's happening now. People are "playing back" at you now -> You know, if you play smart, you can take advantage and make them lose all their chips!
 
"The previous comment was really for the previous post, the one in which Tobold equates his blog to him ganking his readerbase."

There were only two problems with that analogy, otherwise it was well made:

One; ganking means that you attack with superior overpower against helpless victims that cannot defend themselves. Well, this didn't happen, commenters weren't helpless and their argumentation was on par with Tobold's.

Two; ganking usually means that you've won. This didn't happen either, there were arguments made in comments that were never answered, hence the original topic wasn't any "final answer" to win all discussions. Of course, Tobold may proclaim himself victorious in the discussion of that topic, this is his blog after all, but that doesn't mean that that's true.

and here I am left to wonder whether this comment will be removed as well...
 
Crowdsourced MMO reviews? Is this the way of the future?
 
OMG, now he's farming us!!!

Good job Tobold.
 
Nice work, and I even got quoted, who knew I could say something interesting.

Just to develop on where the skill is in EVE/MMO pvp, I'll dig up a diagram I made a while ago.

http://contoleon.posterous.com/where-is-the-skill-in-eve-pvp-again
If linking is inappropriate, I am sorry and please delete.
 
I see what you did there and i feel slightly honoured that several of my own comments are included.

Tobold's MMORPG Blog : Trolling his own readers since 2003
 
If linking is inappropriate, I am sorry and please delete.

Linking to non-commercial sites is allowed, even explicitely mentioned as allowed in the terms of service.

(and at 10pm BST why is it listed as Friday - Belgium is only 1 hour ahead of the UK?)

Dirty little secret: I don't really write most of my posts at 6:30 am. I write them the evening before and put them on a timer. Sometimes the timer bugs out and publishes the post early.

Crowdsourced MMO reviews? Is this the way of the future?

It really depends on what you are looking for in a MMO review. I think this one captures the mood and general nature of EVE rather well. But of course it is nowhere like the kind of review you would read in a print magazine, with some review score at the end.
 
*Slow clap*

Brilliant post on many levels.
 
and here I am left to wonder whether this comment will be removed as well...

As you can see for yourself, I deleted very few out of hundreds of critical comments, basically only those I felt were trying to derail the discussion by calling me a troll.

I even left the comment up where Sara Pickell made that veiled threat to send a bunch of burly South Africans to my house to break my legs if I wouldn't stop saying bad things about EVE. (Last quote in the post above) I think it tells you a lot about the game of EVE and its players.
 
Tobold,

I think that was very unfair to Sara Pickell. She made no threat, and in fact pointed out very clearly that it was not meant as such.

Her comments have been among the best in this recent excitement. Yes, she was offended, and yes she asked you to apologise. But it was clear all along that her objection was against sweeping generalisations, not you personally nor your blog.

So why would you now cap a great post with such a base comment?
 
Asking Tobold to apologize for his opinion while making threats on his well being, oh lord that's just tooooooo much.
 
Well done Tobold :)
 
She made no threat, and in fact pointed out very clearly that it was not meant as such.

To me that sounded very much like a scene from one of the Godfather movies or the Sopranos. "I'm not making any threat, but here are these guys from South Africa and you don't want to know what the'll do to you if you aren't playing nice".

Saying "this is not a threat" doesn't make it so. It's a bit like saying "I don't want to insult you by calling you a complete moron", and then claiming you didn't insult anybody, and pointed out very clearly that this wasn't an insult.
 
Epic review, thanx!
 

I even left the comment up where Sara Pickell made that veiled threat to send a bunch of burly South Africans to my house to break my legs if I wouldn't stop saying bad things about EVE. (Last quote in the post above) I think it tells you a lot about the game of EVE and its players.


Tobold very rarely deletes posts, and you can always see the 'removed by the admin' message when he does, so you know the number of removed comments.

Now, this is one of very few positive things I can say about this last week and this blog.
The quoted text is once again an example for Tobolds relentless focus on the inappropiate comments, instead of the (many more) really good ones.

This is at the root of his behaviour during the last few days.
I can imagine him clicking through the email, skipping several real good comments, and then stopping at one that is inappropiate and emotionally raging about it for 5 minutes before he finally deletes it.


I think it tells you a lot about the game of EVE and its players.


No, it tells you something about the author of the comment, Tobold. No more, no less.
 
That is an educational summary:) Still subjective of course, since input came solely from those who feel the strange (?) need to attack or defend the product they use (a game in this case) on public fora. And we all know what that can lead to (see any MMO's community site) and that the vast majority just plays the game and keeps silent about it..
 
Quite the selection you made :p
I even got a couple lines in \o/

However, to the kind of players I'd like to see more of in Eve, i.e. not your average InstaGrat player, it won't look as bad as you think it will. In fact it may even pique their interest.

Definitely not a game for the masses, and may CCP never cave (fully) to the whiners wanting to change the core philosophy guiding it.

If losing doesn't hurt, there is no risk, no stakes, and everything becomes bland, meaningless, boring.

Only when putting everything you own on the line, in MMO terms knowing it will take you a long, long time to just to get back to where you are now, if it's even possible, only then can you experience the best MMO's have to offer (me), namely emotional roller-coasters, whether ups or downs, that you will remember for a long, long time.


-----

Personally I feel Eve is too forgiving, it's too easy to make oodles of isk. I think not just players, but also NPC's should do more to impede and destroy you.

For instance sleepers should bash pos's (Player Owned Starbases) every once in a while, and heck, why not let k-space rat factions have a go at pos's and sov structures too. :D

Would be massive loot for the prepared and able, massive losses for the unprepared. Now that's a PvE improvement I'd cheer for.
 
Um....before we start a diplomatic incident here can I humbly suggest that maybe Sara Pickell was talking about those "nice" people from Something Awful who call themselves Goon squad. They are a lovely bunch of people who encourage members to scam others and delight in getting others upset in real life as well as in game.

I am not aware that the good nation of South Africa has a particular axe to grind in EVE.
 
I am not aware that the good nation of South Africa has a particular axe to grind in EVE.

Once again prove for the fact that most commenters here (me included) don't actually play EVE online.
Something that makes the 'fanboy' insult quite implausible.
 
Saying "this is not a threat" doesn't make it so. It's a bit like saying "I don't want to insult you by calling you a complete moron", and then claiming you didn't insult anybody, and pointed out very clearly that this wasn't an insult.

Unfortunately very true. Apparently, even South Park once got censored hardcore after some random blogger made a passive aggressive remark along the lines of "someone aught to suicide-bomb them".

As for your post itself, Tobold, nothing but applause from me.
 
Complementing this post where you summarize the comments about EVE Online, I made a post on my blog summarizing the basic underlying topic: Unfair and Fair PvP in Computer games.
 
I'm pretty sure the SA stands for "Something Awful", too. One of the best-known groups of EVE players are the Goon Swarm.
 
"I even left the comment up where Sara Pickell made that veiled threat to send a bunch of burly South Africans to my house to break my legs if I wouldn't stop saying bad things about EVE. (Last quote in the post above) I think it tells you a lot about the game of EVE and its players."

If you really think that SA means "South Africa" in Eve and still claim to know how pvp in Eve works, then you should really reconsider your knowledge of the game and the pvp in there (that would be like saying you know how raiding works in wow even though you have only just started playing and your main character is level 10). If you had spent even a moment to find out what SA means in Eve and then read Sara's post again, I'm pretty sure that you'd reconsider your opinion on this "veiled threat" as well.
 
A neat gesture, but there is no way that a sampling of less than a hundred players is in any way representative of EvE's players.

You guys gotta admit that our sort-the people who read MMO blogs- is a pretty niche group in the niche world of MMOs. Not to mention that the small fraction of readers who actually post represents an even more niche group.

Also,from a read-through I would say at least half, but probably much more don't even play EvE currently, if at all.

And as Nils brought up, if you actually read the comments selected, it is clear Tobold did pick a lot of ones that make EvE players look like bullies, foolish, idiotic and any manner of other unbecoming qualities.
 
One of the reviewer comments--and I don't know how to feel that you didn't choose any of mine--struck me as funny.

It was along the lines of what the world would be like with just people and no police.

And just where do the police come from in our world?

I think you chose a lot of the darker comments, because while I can recognize the game you are 'reviewing' (nicely done by the way) its through a very dark set of glasses.

The game of EVE I am playing--and using as a time to socialize with friends (almost like the old EQ groups sometimes) is far less dangerous and boring than the game you have here.

It would be interesting to see what reviews could be constructed for other games discussed here.
 
And as Nils brought up, if you actually read the comments selected, it is clear Tobold did pick a lot of ones that make EvE players look like bullies, foolish, idiotic and any manner of other unbecoming qualities.

And that was what remains *after* I already eliminated all personal attacks and "WoW players are all retards" type of comments. I can assure you that this selection of comments is *nicer* than the average comment left on my blog this week. If that still makes EVE players look like bullies, well, you know the conclusion I made previously.
 
P.S. Didn't the Goonswarm break up and leave EVE? I swear I read something like that.
 

And as Nils brought up, if you actually read the comments selected, it is clear Tobold did pick a lot of ones that make EvE players look like bullies, foolish, idiotic and any manner of other unbecoming qualities.


Did I ? :)
I didn't want to. I was thinking about if this post is biased when I first read it (as anybody else did :)

I found that it is a little bit. Then I thought about the fact that I am probably biased and decided that Tobold probably really tried to be objective for once.
 
Oh! A misunderstanding. I wrote this earilier:


The quoted text is once again an example for Tobolds relentless focus on the inappropiate comments, instead of the (many more) really good ones.


But I was refering to the paragraph I quoted myself in the same comment, not Tobold's post, which I think is quite balanced.

After all there were some, quite critical comments about EVE they had a right to be repeated in this post - even if they mostly were based on very weak arguments - if those commenters bothered at all to give reasons and not just relied on 'I have a right to have my own opinion, fy'.
 
P.S. Didn't the Goonswarm break up and leave EVE? I swear I read something like that.

No, they broke up because a director fucked up and their alliance leader decided to grab all the ISK. They reformed as SOLODRAKBANDSOLODRAKBANSOLO [LODRA] and are still terrible at playing EVE.
 
Only made it about 1/3 of the way through. :(
TL;DR.
 
"If that still makes EVE players look like bullies, well, you know the conclusion I made previously."

And based on selected sample of posts in the official wow forums, those make wow players look like morons.

I know that not all wow players are morons and you know that all eve players are not bullies, yet you insist on calling them that. What do you think you'll accomplish with this or what do you think that this adds to the conversation?
 
I think my purpose is actually in line with the wishes of many EVE players: Inform the average MMORPG player, who likes instant gratification, accessible, soloable games that EVE is not the game for him. We just differ in our methods: The EVE player thinks the best method to achieve this is to call WoW players names, and I think the best method to achieve this is to call EVE a ganking game.
 
"I think the best method to achieve this is to call EVE a ganking game."

Then call eve a ganking game, don't call all eve players bullies.

I'm sure you're okay if people call wow a juvenile game but you wouldn't like all wow players called morons, right?
 
Well, I had already officially changed my use of the term "bullies" into "border guards" several threads ago. It was J.DangerouS who brought up the term "bullies" again.

I'm quite content just stating that I don't want to play a border guard.
 
"I'm quite content just stating that I don't want to play a border guard."

You've spent an awful lot of time and energy to say that.

Do you understand the difference between these headings:

"Bullies in the sandbox"
"Border guards in the sandbox"

Do you think that eve players would have commented your recent posts differently if you hadn't called them bullies right from the start and you would have used the term "border guard" instead?

How about instead of saying: "If you aren't a bully yourself, those supervised, bully-free playgrounds are the much better places."

...you would have said: "If you don't want to play a border guard, those supervised playgrounds without border guards are the much better places."

Do you think that responses in these posts would have been different or just the same? Do you think that some people might become upset about the first paragraph but they'd happily accept that second paragraph?

When discussing about fairness - like we all did yesterday - do you think that it's fair to start the discussion by upsetting a lot of people who are interested about the topic or do you think that it would be more fair and constructive not to insult people immediately in your first post about the topic you want to discuss?
 
Do you understand the difference between these headings:
"Bullies in the sandbox"
"Border guards in the sandbox"


I understand the difference, you don't. The difference is one of semantics, just like the difference between "freedom fighter" and "terrorist". To the "border guard" the act of defending his border appears to be a necessary act of the strategic warfare of EVE. To a player used to other MMORPGs, the kind that have mostly PvE and a bit of consentual PvP, the border guard's "shoot first, ask questions later" policy looks a lot like ganking.

Which term to use depends on who you are talking to. And that is where you fail to understand me: I'm not talking to the EVE players, because my with my limited knowledge of EVE it would be stupid to try to explain EVE to EVE veterans. I can however talk to people who never tried EVE and explain the basics of EVE's philosophy to them.

Yes, that will cause some of them to not want to play EVE. But are you really going to miss those? They'll be the kind you'd call "carebear" anyway, and that'll just be the kindest of the words you use. A few other readers will read my description of EVE, including the harshness and potential grief that the freedom of EVE brings with it, and will nevertheless be interested. And that is the type of people you actually want playing.

This is exactly why even CCP is quoted as saying "EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for."

Because you *don't* want the people looking for a happy land of fun and adventure wandering into EVE. You don't want them, and I don't want them to go there for their own protection.
 
Because you *don't* want the people looking for a happy land of fun and adventure wandering into EVE. You don't want them, and I don't want them to go there for their own protection.

Well, from that point of view, we (EVE players) might even have to thank you Tobold. On the other hand i prefer to let new players actually try out the game by themselves and make up their own mind without giving them my own prejudices to take along.
 
Erm.. If somebody suggested a game full of bullies to me I'd decline.

If he explained that their behaviour might look bully-like to me, but is part of a grand feature of that game: STRATEGY
I'd test it out immedeately.

So, yes, Tobold it does make a difference to new players.
 
Which is why this "crowdsourced review" contains both of these views, Nils.
 
How altruistic of you, Tobold. Decidedly unlike Syncaine with his trolling of the WoW community, the motivation behind your EVE posts is just so gosh-darned innocent.
 
Proze, don't you know sarcasm doesn't show well on the internet? People will believe you meant what you said. :)

So, Syncaine's been trolling again? Hmmm, I didn't get any incoming links this time, he must have read my previous comment about those and stopped the links. Thank heavens for small mercies. Well, PvP week on this blog isn't over, I'm sure I can provoke him some more. He must be the only person whose buttons are even easier to push than mine.
 
"And that is where you fail to understand me: I'm not talking to the EVE players [...]"

Yes, you are. People who play Eve read your blog. People who don't play Eve but know what the game is about read your blog. Your blog is not just a "wow-blog for wow gamers, we want no trouble here", lot of other people read and comment on your blog as well.

You can decide whether you want objectively criticize Eve and use neutral words so that the discussion might remain civil and useful, or you can decide to bash Eve and insult its players so that you'll get a nice flamewar going in your blog where you can point fingers and say "all these people who disagree with me are bullies like I just told you so". It's not just semantics, it's what you want to accomplish with those words you want to use. You wanted to use words that you knew would start a flamewar, so don't act surprised when you got one. You're wiser than that.
 
"Inform the average MMORPG player, who likes instant gratification, accessible, soloable games that EVE is not the game for him......is to call EVE a ganking game" -Tobold

Firstly: you can play solo all you want, simply for alliance pvp you obviously cant (which is obvious without anyone being told)

And I think the legions of traders, haulers, and the like would argue that instant gratification is to be had aplenty.

And you should also tell them how you were NEVER ganked. You invaded enemy territory and your invasion was stopped.


"I understand the difference, you don't. The difference is one of semantics, just like the difference between "freedom fighter" and "terrorist"" -Tobold

Uh no. "Bully" and "Border Guard" are never confused or mistaken for one another in the real world. No border guard is called a bully that I've ever heard of.

Even if you really hated the *idea* of borders being defended (in which case this person probably wants to attack said country in some way or smuggle drugs in), you wouldnt blame the guard himself.

You would call the country a bully not the guard. So this bully=guard thing is nonsense.

Also, can you stop insisting that to play EvE you MUST be a border guard? Or participate in PvP at all?

EvE = PvP optional

And in regards to your last point about "both views being represented". The view that "eve players are bullies" is one that is completely unfounded and quite obviously an exaggeration or blatant error in judgement.

What you could say (in order to not mislead others), is that you invaded a system and were shot down by its owners (who have the very real threat of being attacked to worry about).

In my opinion, you are more the bully for invading their territory than they are for defending it.
 
The view that "eve players are bullies" is one that is completely unfounded and quite obviously an exaggeration or blatant error in judgement.

So all these comments I cited above from EVE players, some of them passionate defenders of the game, that EVE is harsh, that you can get scammed in Jita, that you can get tricked into being PvP flagged, that there are corporations that wardec the newbie organization EVEUni are all lies? I don't think so. Maybe *you* aren't a bully, but there is a high enough concentration of griefers in this game to give a rather bad impression. Or maybe you are a bully, and don't want me to warn the n00bs?
 
J. DangerouS... I sympathise with your argument, but really –

Uh no. "Bully" and "Border Guard" are never confused or mistaken for one another in the real world. No border guard is called a bully that I've ever heard of.

You can't be serious?

Googling "Border guard bullies" gives Tobold at number one. This is number 2:

http://politicallyuncensored.com/showthread.php?s=d5d736c50719397df68b9daea2e1ba88&t=6386

I believe border guards and other people in a position of relative authority like this have been called "bullies" since the dawn of time.

And I think many are. In the real world much more so than in EVE, even. Positions of power and authority are positions that invite abuse. But that, of course, is way beyond the discussion that has passed here.

By the way, that audio clip on the page linked. I don't know the people involved, and I'm not going to say it's an example of bullying or anything else. Although I did laugh when the guy said that three terrorists per day enter the US through Buffalo!
 
"Proze, don't you know sarcasm doesn't show well on the internet? People will believe you meant what you said. :)"

If you picked up on it I'm sure it shows well enough. Good point, though. Really.

"So, Syncaine's been trolling again? Hmmm, I didn't get any incoming links this time, he must have read my previous comment about those and stopped the links. Thank heavens for small mercies. Well, PvP week on this blog isn't over, I'm sure I can provoke him some more. He must be the only person whose buttons are even easier to push than mine."

You go ahead and do that. Have a ball. It's refreshing to see you embrace your dark side on occasion, instead of the hypocrisy and condescension you normally toss out there.
 
Googling "Border guard bullies" gives Tobold at number one. This is number 2:

That's because you allow goggle to personalize your search results. ;)
 
"I don't think so. Maybe *you* aren't a bully, but there is a high enough concentration of griefers in this game to give a rather bad impression."

Border patrolling is not griefing. Even "ganking" in pvp sandbox game does not equal "griefing".

Either you don't know what those words mean and you don't know how to use them properly, or you're just trolling again. Which is it?
 
Nils!

You're right of course. I forgot I was logged in. Google are bullying me!

Never been to #2 before though ;)
 
There is a lot to really like about EVE and a lot of tragic flaws (e.g. horrible UI and a small user base that will feel more hard core if the game is inconvenient.)

However, one thing your review failed to touch on is that I think CCP is wonderfully open, at least for a no longer small company.

Look at http://www.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3873&tid=1

Can you imagine Blizzard telling us the 114,000 or the 75? Or allowing you to see exactly how many people are logged on.? Etc. I think CCP would have a better (and more profitable) game with more adult supervision (management.) Still, one can forgive a lot from a company that is open and trying.
 
Listen, EvE screamers:

Tobold understands the PvP aspect of the game. He has read and re-read all of the screamer arguments about how PvP is super awesome in this game, and that his attempt at null-sec was dumb.

It's not going to change his mind that PvP in EvE is extremely brutal. Because of that, he dislikes it, k?

Maybe most of you screamers found your way here recently, when Tobold started reviewing EvE based on readers asking him to.

I don't blame you for coming here, what, with you guys spending most of your time offline waiting to skill up and preparing spreadsheets and stuff. But seriously, give it a rest.

At the end of the day, Tobold doesn't like that type of PvP. He is reviewing this game from a newbie's perspective. That you veteran screamers don't quite understand that seems to be the big issue.

You aren't going to trip him up with semantics, even though English isn't his first language, so stop already. You screamers are STILL trying to convince Tobold that his opinion is "wrong". And that isn't so.

Tobold's regular readers are not only fine with his opinion on EvE, but are probably like me...slightly amused at the amount of fanboyism you screamers are showing here. But, at least for me, it's starting to get old.

No one misunderstands the facts. Tobold, along with one of my second cousins, and every one of his readers now understand that "border guards" aren't bullies.

We know that they are super strategists protecting their space for their corporation.

Stop explaining it already.

We know. We understand. We get it.

There. Can we go back to normal discussions instead of focusing on the whole "bully" thing. This was interesting 4 days ago.
 
No one misunderstands the facts. Tobold, along with one of my second cousins, and every one of his readers now understand that "border guards" aren't bullies.

Great. Now the only thing left to do were to write it down and click on "publish your comment". :)
 
@ Tobold "I can however talk to people who never tried EVE and explain the basics of EVE's philosophy to them."

That's just it though, you DO NOT understand the basics of EVE's philosophy. You have proven that to us these past few weeks with your post.

You took the blue pill, so stop trying to explain to people what the red pill experience is like.
 
Well, this post was only made of comments that were from EVE players, not from me. So if THEY are saying that EVE is harsh and unfriendly to newbies, then it must be right. Everybody is complaining, but I had literally NOBODY yet who said "Oh no, you're wrong, EVE is an extremely nice game, and very accessible to new players". The only thing the EVE veterans say is that they *like* the game being brutal.
 
I've been playing MMO's since the mid-90's. I'm obsessively nerdy - I like spreadsheets, running in-game experiments to figure out game mechanics, etc. I've moderated message boards for MMO's (mainly EQ1).

I finally tried EVE a few months ago because an acquaintance in real life had recommended it several times. I did the 21 day trial and thought it was fun enough to go ahead and subscribe.

The initial stages of learning the game, playing with the fitting tools, etc. was fun to me - I actually enjoyed that you had to do some work to learn the game. (I don't recommend that as an approach for games in general, but I like it that some games are like that.)

However, my experiences were very similar to Tobold's. I've never been interested in PVP in the context of an MMO (whereas I do like first person shooters, strategy games, etc.) - just do not like games where in-game skills (versus player skills) and equipment are so heavily weighted.

Once missions started to send me to low-sec space, I just quickly came to the conclusion that it wasn't for me. When I asked what my friend did for fun in the game, I discovered it was "hanging out in low sec space and ganking people for profit." Not my cup of tea for sure.

I must admit that I have a dim view of people who have fun by negatively impacting the fun of others. I know that not all people who enjoy MMO PVP have that mindset, but it seems extremely common among people who gravitate toward PVP games. They generally don't seem to be looking for fair fights and a challenge - they're looking for a venue for dominating people weaker than themselves.

Here's the thing - I think I have a feel for what Tobold tends to like or not. It doesn't perfectly align with my preferences, but I do feel that I can be a reasonably intelligent person and decide whether the "review" or opinion of a game posted by him would predict whether I'd also like that game.
 
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