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Monday, May 10, 2010
World of Warcraft's outlandish gap
I have 4 level 80 characters now, but all my other alts are at level 60 or below. Once I reach level 60 with an alt, it takes me a lot of willpower to play on and enter Hellfire Peninsula, and usually I just give up at that point. I never liked the Burning Crusade expansion, and I consider it the weakest part of World of Warcraft. But with Cataclysm "renovating" the level 1-60 content, and raising the level cap to 85, and the level 70-80 content of Wrath of the Lich King being already rather good, the 60-70 level range is becoming more and more of a problem.
Questing in most zones of Outland just isn't much fun, with the quests being a lot grindier and less interesting than Northrend quests. Plus the Blizzard devs cheated when they made the quests for Alliance and Horde, and simply copied & pasted the quests from one faction to the other, so even replaying Outland with a different faction is boring.
One reason Outland feels so grindy is the XP to level curve, which "bends" sharply upwards at level 60 and becomes much steeper. That effect even gets much worse if you used Blizzard's Recruit-A-Friend program either with a friend or for multiboxing, because both the triple xp and the grantable levels stop at 60.
I am most certainly going to create new characters when Cataclysm is coming out, the current plan is to make a Goblin hunter and a Worgen warlock, this being classes I haven't played all that much yet. The new races, new race/class combinations, and new content in Azeroth will certainly induce a lot of people to play through level 1 to 60 again. Leveling from New Azeroth to Northrend and the Cataclysm content will require a stretch of leveling through Outland. I wonder how many people will actually enjoy that part, and how many will find that the weakest part of the leveling experience to 85.
Maybe it is time to smoothen the xp to level curve in the 60 to 70 region, and to expand the Recruit-A-Friend benefits to level 70. What do you think?
- posted by Tobold @ 6:30 AM Permanent Link
Comments:
I am so fed up with doing quests nowadays that the old-fashioned grind seems like being released from a treadmill and given my freedom. What, I can kill anything I like? Go wherever I want and just hunt? It was the endless questing that finally did for my interest in WoW, and it was at it's very worst in the Burning Crusade content.
Nowadays, with the Dungeon Finder, presumably no-one needs to quest at all. Unfortunately, I found that doing dungeons at a breakneck rush with four strangers who almost never spoke was even less like fun than questing.
I'll be back to take a look at the Cataclysm changes when the expansion launches, but I really can't imagine staying for long, unless there's some real new direction for the gameplay.
These lines could have been written by me. I agree 100%.
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Outland has changed, Tolbold. It will take all of three zones (if you're unlucky, last time I did it I went from 58-64 in Hellfire alone) to complete, and you'll breeze through it in about 6 hours (number made up). You've got a flying mount from level 60, probably got heirloom items, and generally have a stronger character for the level range than when BC was new.
It's like levelling on speed. Seriously.
It's like levelling on speed. Seriously.
Yes, the flying mount and heirloom items make leveling brisk, especially if you are juggling characters so you're playing with rested XP most of the time.
You can also participate in the holidays battlegrounds and get great XP from those. I've leveled a priest from 59 to 67 this weekend by running AV, the holiday BG.
And don't forget that you can go to Northrend at 68.
This is the "outlandish gap" that bothers me. When my priest hits 80, he will have a gear score of 2500-3000 most likely. I enjoy the battlegrounds, but at 80 he's be going against players with 5k and 6k gear scores, and will be totally outgeared. It will be like playing against players 3-5 levels higher than me.
So the only way to compete is to grind for gear, and I've already run the 5 man heroics at least 200 times between my three level 80s. Having to do them again on a new character seems like a horrendous grind to me.
You can also participate in the holidays battlegrounds and get great XP from those. I've leveled a priest from 59 to 67 this weekend by running AV, the holiday BG.
And don't forget that you can go to Northrend at 68.
This is the "outlandish gap" that bothers me. When my priest hits 80, he will have a gear score of 2500-3000 most likely. I enjoy the battlegrounds, but at 80 he's be going against players with 5k and 6k gear scores, and will be totally outgeared. It will be like playing against players 3-5 levels higher than me.
So the only way to compete is to grind for gear, and I've already run the 5 man heroics at least 200 times between my three level 80s. Having to do them again on a new character seems like a horrendous grind to me.
Dr. Shaid has nailed it.
I just looked on Armory at the achievements of my Death Knight, my most recently levelled character. He did:
* Everything in Hellfire Peninsula (got the achievement)
* Zero quests in Zangarmarsh
* 12/63 quests in Terokkar (I think they were chain quests that took me back there, or maybe Shattrath quests)
* 64/75 quests in Nagrand
* Zero quests in Blade's Edge
* 20/120 quests in Netherstorm
* Zero quests in Shadowmoon Valley
So.. basically.. I cleared Hellfire, cleared Nagrand (apart from some of the harder group quests - the easiers ones I solo'd, being a DK), and had just made a start on Netherstorm when I dinged 68 and headed off for Northrend. Two and a bit zones, that was all it took.
This was with heirlooms, though, so I figure three zones without.
I just looked on Armory at the achievements of my Death Knight, my most recently levelled character. He did:
* Everything in Hellfire Peninsula (got the achievement)
* Zero quests in Zangarmarsh
* 12/63 quests in Terokkar (I think they were chain quests that took me back there, or maybe Shattrath quests)
* 64/75 quests in Nagrand
* Zero quests in Blade's Edge
* 20/120 quests in Netherstorm
* Zero quests in Shadowmoon Valley
So.. basically.. I cleared Hellfire, cleared Nagrand (apart from some of the harder group quests - the easiers ones I solo'd, being a DK), and had just made a start on Netherstorm when I dinged 68 and headed off for Northrend. Two and a bit zones, that was all it took.
This was with heirlooms, though, so I figure three zones without.
How do you still think wrath quests are interesting after four 80s? I simply will not do half of Borean Tundra; I feel for the blue dragonflight ordeal the way you do about BC, plus Coldarra is just too darned bright.
Dragonblight is similar, except it's mostly dead. Vultures and kobolds are not things I care to encounter for extended periods of time. Thankfully there are the dragonshrine quests, and the kill-the-lich quest line from the alliance keep. Northrend doesn't really become any fun until Icecrown (or maybe Zul'drak, I've never quested there, ever).
Meanwhile, what they say about questing in Outland is true, it goes quickly, especially with heirlooms, flying mounts, and then BGs/Instances on the side. You can skip your least favorite zones, and only do the quests that interest you. I still only do half of Blade's Edge, and skip Terokkar entirely, while Hellfire+Zangar full clears net me "almost there" status.
Maybe we are biased in different directions? All my best memories are from vanilla and BC, so any time a Fel Reaver is walking by I can just dwell on my first kill, maybe pull up that screenshot and see the guildies I did it with.
Being on an RP realm also helps to heep me interested in certain zones. On my draenei, I did all the draenei hubs, on my druid I did Zanger and [most of] BE, because I wanted to learn more about the factions my character was working for and the types of activities I was doing ICly.
Also helps that I'm on a PvP server, so fresh encounters are always just a gank away.
I assume you don't play an RP character, but do you have any fond memories from your BC days? Interesting battles, storyline quests, group/guild accomplishments? Comparatively, how many in your WLK days?
Dragonblight is similar, except it's mostly dead. Vultures and kobolds are not things I care to encounter for extended periods of time. Thankfully there are the dragonshrine quests, and the kill-the-lich quest line from the alliance keep. Northrend doesn't really become any fun until Icecrown (or maybe Zul'drak, I've never quested there, ever).
Meanwhile, what they say about questing in Outland is true, it goes quickly, especially with heirlooms, flying mounts, and then BGs/Instances on the side. You can skip your least favorite zones, and only do the quests that interest you. I still only do half of Blade's Edge, and skip Terokkar entirely, while Hellfire+Zangar full clears net me "almost there" status.
Maybe we are biased in different directions? All my best memories are from vanilla and BC, so any time a Fel Reaver is walking by I can just dwell on my first kill, maybe pull up that screenshot and see the guildies I did it with.
Being on an RP realm also helps to heep me interested in certain zones. On my draenei, I did all the draenei hubs, on my druid I did Zanger and [most of] BE, because I wanted to learn more about the factions my character was working for and the types of activities I was doing ICly.
Also helps that I'm on a PvP server, so fresh encounters are always just a gank away.
I assume you don't play an RP character, but do you have any fond memories from your BC days? Interesting battles, storyline quests, group/guild accomplishments? Comparatively, how many in your WLK days?
The problem I have with the new content is that since Wrath they upped the XP you get fro 1-60, so we will rush too fast through the new content.
I wonder if thats also on purpose so they do not need that many quests? Or do they remove the XP advantage we had?
I wonder if thats also on purpose so they do not need that many quests? Or do they remove the XP advantage we had?
Who says you even have to quest? Keep your characters topped up with rested XP, do Daily Instance Runs, and you can level from 60 to 80 without ever actually leave your home City.
I just played through Outlands on a DK and just did Hellfire, about half of Zangar/Nagrand, and then about half of Netherstorm. I would have leveled a lot faster if I hadn't been doing some rep grinding and farming.
Totally agree that BC is not that great, especially the first time you step into Northrend where it feels like a brand new game. What I wish Blizzard would do with the loop that Cata will create is to fill out the expansion areas with more content and keep the population together and not spread out all over the place.
Totally agree that BC is not that great, especially the first time you step into Northrend where it feels like a brand new game. What I wish Blizzard would do with the loop that Cata will create is to fill out the expansion areas with more content and keep the population together and not spread out all over the place.
As others have said, leveling in Outland is pretty easy now. Without any heirlooms, my DK dinged 68 doing Hellfire, Zangarmarsh, and about half of Nagrand's quests.
I think most people would agree that Outland is still a step up from current 1-60 content. TBC really helped solidify the concept of contained quest hubs that have you questing in the general vicinity of them, and provide you with follow-up quests that lead you to the next hubs.
I think most people would agree that Outland is still a step up from current 1-60 content. TBC really helped solidify the concept of contained quest hubs that have you questing in the general vicinity of them, and provide you with follow-up quests that lead you to the next hubs.
I guess that Outland is the new "Stranglethorn hole". ;)
http://tobolds.blogspot.com/2006/02/stranglethorn-hole.html
Anyway I agree. Outland isn't very fun.
http://tobolds.blogspot.com/2006/02/stranglethorn-hole.html
Anyway I agree. Outland isn't very fun.
Even though I've taken 8 or 9 toons through Outland, I've never really thought of it as dull. From igniting the ballistas in Hellfire to closing down the mana forges in Netherstorm, I have enjoyed it pretty much every time.
Also, with increased powers and Wrath talents, all the group quests are soloable now, so there is even some challenge to be had if you want it!
Also, with increased powers and Wrath talents, all the group quests are soloable now, so there is even some challenge to be had if you want it!
I love the Outlands, but I agree that Hellfire is a fairly stale bottleneck (maybe because it's been played the most)? My advice to you is get to 61 in Hellfire (do the early quests that give some nice item upgrades), then with your BoAs and the nerf to leveling content, you could jump to Zangarmarsh pretty soon thereafter. That way you can spend more leveling time in some of the deeper zones that you may not remember as well.
Get a flying mount (cheap), and heirloom items (BoA, +30% xp), and do instance runs, while questing a bit while you wait. Do the quests that are easy and close together, and change zone when you have only long quests chains left (unless you do them for fun)
Following that, i did quest in hellfire, then nagrand, and that is all(!)
Playing 10h/week, it took me one week to do 60-70 and two to do 70-80 (with a lot more quests in the latter case)
Following that, i did quest in hellfire, then nagrand, and that is all(!)
Playing 10h/week, it took me one week to do 60-70 and two to do 70-80 (with a lot more quests in the latter case)
Like it’s been said before, BC content can actually be pretty easy. Despite that, it is my least favorite part of the game by far, which is probably because of the aesthetics. There’s this unnerving, awkward shift from a classic fantasy Azeroth to the strange Outland world. I do understand that it’s meant to look alien, but it just doesn’t click for me. It’s too strange to be relaxing, and too awkward to be awesome, so I can only describe it as unsettling, which is not conducive to long periods of leveling.
In Azeroth there’s something of an almost nostalgic, down to earth, familiar and trustworthy setting. In Outland, any restrictive properties the world may have are thrown out the window and you’re presented with a schizophrenic splatter of random. Northrend at least preserves some restraint and you feel like you’re still on the world you came from and belong to instead of some surreal nightmare land.
In Azeroth there’s something of an almost nostalgic, down to earth, familiar and trustworthy setting. In Outland, any restrictive properties the world may have are thrown out the window and you’re presented with a schizophrenic splatter of random. Northrend at least preserves some restraint and you feel like you’re still on the world you came from and belong to instead of some surreal nightmare land.
# posted by 
: 10/5/10 09:48
: 10/5/10 09:48
You should be able to get to level 64 in the *old* lands if you do _all_ of the quests and instances. Then you just need to do probably 2 outlands zones before hitting Northrend. Or skip questing in Outlands altogether and just do the instances there or level in battlegrounds as has been suggested.
I really dislike Hellfire Peninsula, but I still like the rest of Outlands - particularly Nagrand :)
I really dislike Hellfire Peninsula, but I still like the rest of Outlands - particularly Nagrand :)
RAF absolutely should go to 70: triple XP and boosting. And you can level from 70 to 80 in the AH if you really wanted to; 724 Sealed vials of poison.
I thought Bliz was pretty clever in that adding flying and Heirlooms really did speed up 60-70. It accelerated some early Northrend as well, mostly travel time like in HF. I waited until 70 for Northrend so I could start with epic cold flying.
perhaps due to gear, but initial HFP was always tough for my non plate wearers. Flying helped a lot.
it offends my mathematical sensibilities the way Bliz changes scale. it takes triple the XP for 70 than 69. but quest and mobs pay better so not really. Why should a 60 killing a 69 pig pay much worse than a 70 killing a 70, just so they can up the scale.
It is why 5 levels in Cata is a non-issue, Level 80 could take 10% or 1000% of the effort of 79 just by tweaking the constants.
I thought Bliz was pretty clever in that adding flying and Heirlooms really did speed up 60-70. It accelerated some early Northrend as well, mostly travel time like in HF. I waited until 70 for Northrend so I could start with epic cold flying.
perhaps due to gear, but initial HFP was always tough for my non plate wearers. Flying helped a lot.
it offends my mathematical sensibilities the way Bliz changes scale. it takes triple the XP for 70 than 69. but quest and mobs pay better so not really. Why should a 60 killing a 69 pig pay much worse than a 70 killing a 70, just so they can up the scale.
It is why 5 levels in Cata is a non-issue, Level 80 could take 10% or 1000% of the effort of 79 just by tweaking the constants.
I ninja'd this quote from the Stranglethorn Hole post. Thanks Stromgaard!
"I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the content in that level range has very little to do with the Warcraft Lore that the game is founded on. You lose a real sense of the "Story" that is taking place in the world. Places like STV, Desolace, Thousand Needles, Arathi Highlands - while there's enough to do to keep you busy, none of those zones make you feel like you're part of the Drama.
Once you hit 50 it seems like that starts to change - especially in the Eastern and Western Plaguelands. My Pally is battling the Scourge up there right now and it feels like I'm back on track again. You know... the Scourge. No, THE Scourge! The Lich King, Arthas, Kel'Thuzad.... THAT Scourge! Huzzah!"
The drama point is a good one: The draenei story is relevant and interesting to me, so I loved wearing their equipment, fighting their enemies, exploring their world, even listening/talking with their accent.
I also enjoyed it for the reasons pointed out by Hobonicus:
"There’s this unnerving, awkward shift from a classic fantasy Azeroth to the strange Outland world. I do understand that it’s meant to look alien, but it just doesn’t click for me. It’s too strange to be relaxing, and too awkward to be awesome, so I can only describe it as unsettling, which is not conducive to long periods of leveling.
In Azeroth there’s something of an almost nostalgic, down to earth, familiar and trustworthy setting. In Outland, any restrictive properties the world may have are thrown out the window and you’re presented with a schizophrenic splatter of random."
In which case, I guess that's just where opinion comes in; we're different types of gamers/people.
"I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the content in that level range has very little to do with the Warcraft Lore that the game is founded on. You lose a real sense of the "Story" that is taking place in the world. Places like STV, Desolace, Thousand Needles, Arathi Highlands - while there's enough to do to keep you busy, none of those zones make you feel like you're part of the Drama.
Once you hit 50 it seems like that starts to change - especially in the Eastern and Western Plaguelands. My Pally is battling the Scourge up there right now and it feels like I'm back on track again. You know... the Scourge. No, THE Scourge! The Lich King, Arthas, Kel'Thuzad.... THAT Scourge! Huzzah!"
The drama point is a good one: The draenei story is relevant and interesting to me, so I loved wearing their equipment, fighting their enemies, exploring their world, even listening/talking with their accent.
I also enjoyed it for the reasons pointed out by Hobonicus:
"There’s this unnerving, awkward shift from a classic fantasy Azeroth to the strange Outland world. I do understand that it’s meant to look alien, but it just doesn’t click for me. It’s too strange to be relaxing, and too awkward to be awesome, so I can only describe it as unsettling, which is not conducive to long periods of leveling.
In Azeroth there’s something of an almost nostalgic, down to earth, familiar and trustworthy setting. In Outland, any restrictive properties the world may have are thrown out the window and you’re presented with a schizophrenic splatter of random."
In which case, I guess that's just where opinion comes in; we're different types of gamers/people.
The Recruit-A-Friend programme is too quick, IMO, and you burn through the levels so fast you can't enjoy them properly. I think Blizzard should just lessen the curve from 60-70 and make the progression a bit easier. It is certainly quite a shock to the system hitting 60 after having the RAF triple exp bonus :)
# posted by : 10/5/10 10:54
: 10/5/10 10:54
Firstly, I agree that leveling becomes much less enjoyable after you reached 58; at which point you go to outland. I also agree that WotLK is better, but doesn't beat classic.
However, I don't understand the argument that therefore leveling should be made faster.
That's like argueing that chess is no fun and therefore the duration of a match has to be reduced.
How about making playing (leveling) in outland actually fun? If it's no fun, remove it from the game!
Besides: Blizzard could put the existing raid content to good use by making it ultra easy and puggable with the dungeon finder. I pugged BT at 80 with 15 people and it was extremely easy. So it's really just a matter of HP, hps and dps.
I'd love the visit illidan while leveling. Better than never seeing him.
However, I don't understand the argument that therefore leveling should be made faster.
That's like argueing that chess is no fun and therefore the duration of a match has to be reduced.
How about making playing (leveling) in outland actually fun? If it's no fun, remove it from the game!
Besides: Blizzard could put the existing raid content to good use by making it ultra easy and puggable with the dungeon finder. I pugged BT at 80 with 15 people and it was extremely easy. So it's really just a matter of HP, hps and dps.
I'd love the visit illidan while leveling. Better than never seeing him.
That’d actually be pretty cool if they made easy 5 or 10 man version of BC raids that lacked gear but each boss gave increasingly larger amounts of experience. Maybe then I’d actually get to see Black Temple or the Sunwell.
They should also add a substantial experience reward for exploring in Outland, so that players would actually be rewarded for at least seeing all the content they made.
They should also add a substantial experience reward for exploring in Outland, so that players would actually be rewarded for at least seeing all the content they made.
# posted by : 10/5/10 11:18
: 10/5/10 11:18
I'm chewing through Loremaster, on an alt I levelled mostly through LFD. (Why? Erm, 'cos...)
Flying mounts and a lack of multi-zone quests make me worry less about Outlands than Azeroth.
The last 50 quests in Kalimdor probably took me 10 hours... Not because I reached the bottom of the barrel, but because I ran out of quests I could do without crossing two continents.
Flying mounts and a lack of multi-zone quests make me worry less about Outlands than Azeroth.
The last 50 quests in Kalimdor probably took me 10 hours... Not because I reached the bottom of the barrel, but because I ran out of quests I could do without crossing two continents.
Outland was the point at which Mrs Bhagpuss and I began to lose interest in WoW, although the last few levels in Azeroth itself had begun to feel tedious.
Neither of us has played any previous Blizzard games, so the Lore didn't really come into it. The jerky transition from high fantasy to clunky horror/space-opera was a major turn-off, though.
We avoided as much of the BC content as we could. Mrs Bhagpuss got to Northrend but I had pretty much lost interest by then. The only thing that finally got me to carry on was her report that it was much better there.
I did finally limp over the line into the WotLK content, but by then I had pretty much had it with WoW. Yes, the WotLK content is more engaging than the terrible tedium of BC, but not *much* more engaging.
It's apparent from the comments here and on other WoW-focused sites that WoW is really a gamers' game. Since I'm not a gamer, most of that side of things has no appeal to me. The real problem, though, is something that is becoming a general problem with MMOs, at least for me: Questing.
Questing really is the new grind. I am so fed up with doing quests nowadays that the old-fashioned grind seems like being released from a treadmill and given my freedom. What, I can kill anything I like? Go wherever I want and just hunt? It was the endless questing that finally did for my interest in WoW, and it was at it's very worst in the Burning Crusade content.
Nowadays, with the Dungeon Finder, presumably no-one needs to quest at all. Unfortunately, I found that doing dungeons at a breakneck rush with four strangers who almost never spoke was even less like fun than questing.
I'll be back to take a look at the Cataclysm changes when the expansion launches, but I really can't imagine staying for long, unless there's some real new direction for the gameplay.
Neither of us has played any previous Blizzard games, so the Lore didn't really come into it. The jerky transition from high fantasy to clunky horror/space-opera was a major turn-off, though.
We avoided as much of the BC content as we could. Mrs Bhagpuss got to Northrend but I had pretty much lost interest by then. The only thing that finally got me to carry on was her report that it was much better there.
I did finally limp over the line into the WotLK content, but by then I had pretty much had it with WoW. Yes, the WotLK content is more engaging than the terrible tedium of BC, but not *much* more engaging.
It's apparent from the comments here and on other WoW-focused sites that WoW is really a gamers' game. Since I'm not a gamer, most of that side of things has no appeal to me. The real problem, though, is something that is becoming a general problem with MMOs, at least for me: Questing.
Questing really is the new grind. I am so fed up with doing quests nowadays that the old-fashioned grind seems like being released from a treadmill and given my freedom. What, I can kill anything I like? Go wherever I want and just hunt? It was the endless questing that finally did for my interest in WoW, and it was at it's very worst in the Burning Crusade content.
Nowadays, with the Dungeon Finder, presumably no-one needs to quest at all. Unfortunately, I found that doing dungeons at a breakneck rush with four strangers who almost never spoke was even less like fun than questing.
I'll be back to take a look at the Cataclysm changes when the expansion launches, but I really can't imagine staying for long, unless there's some real new direction for the gameplay.
I am so fed up with doing quests nowadays that the old-fashioned grind seems like being released from a treadmill and given my freedom. What, I can kill anything I like? Go wherever I want and just hunt? It was the endless questing that finally did for my interest in WoW, and it was at it's very worst in the Burning Crusade content.
Nowadays, with the Dungeon Finder, presumably no-one needs to quest at all. Unfortunately, I found that doing dungeons at a breakneck rush with four strangers who almost never spoke was even less like fun than questing.
I'll be back to take a look at the Cataclysm changes when the expansion launches, but I really can't imagine staying for long, unless there's some real new direction for the gameplay.
These lines could have been written by me. I agree 100%.
I'm currently leveling my 51 warrior to 80. He's now at lvl 72 and I'm now combining his leveling with my lvl 70 hunter so they both have full rested XP all the time.
And I liked leveling in Outland. If you do not like Hellfire, why do you do it? Just skip it and start in Zangarmarsh, one of my favorite outland zones. And I do enjoy Nagrand a lot too.
To me, leveling in Outland went like a blast. The reduced XP needed, being able to use a flying mount at level 60 and even the reduced amount of quest mobs needed to kill makes sure you can rush through Outland. Add to that that there are instances that you can actually do in half an hour and not the evening long vanilla instances.
In fact, Northrend feels like a blocking point. Suddenly my flying mount is gone? Giving us a flying mount for 10 levels and then taking it away feels like cheating. So there's a huge leveling speed difference between my hunter with an epic flying mount and my warrior without a flying mount (different server).
The XP curve gets one huge hit (70.000 xp > 150.000 xp) when going from outland to northrend, a lot bigger than from vanilla to Outland! In Outland I could easily get one level an evening. All in all, my leveling has gone to a crawl again.
And I liked leveling in Outland. If you do not like Hellfire, why do you do it? Just skip it and start in Zangarmarsh, one of my favorite outland zones. And I do enjoy Nagrand a lot too.
To me, leveling in Outland went like a blast. The reduced XP needed, being able to use a flying mount at level 60 and even the reduced amount of quest mobs needed to kill makes sure you can rush through Outland. Add to that that there are instances that you can actually do in half an hour and not the evening long vanilla instances.
In fact, Northrend feels like a blocking point. Suddenly my flying mount is gone? Giving us a flying mount for 10 levels and then taking it away feels like cheating. So there's a huge leveling speed difference between my hunter with an epic flying mount and my warrior without a flying mount (different server).
The XP curve gets one huge hit (70.000 xp > 150.000 xp) when going from outland to northrend, a lot bigger than from vanilla to Outland! In Outland I could easily get one level an evening. All in all, my leveling has gone to a crawl again.
My husband and I level together and most of our recent pairs have been tank/healer configurations, so we mostly use dungeon runs in Outlands. Did it manually before LFD, now it's even easier. 10 runs of Hellfire Ramparts, 5 through Mana Tombs and 5 through Sethykk Halls and you'll be about ready for Northrend.
# posted by : 10/5/10 13:54
: 10/5/10 13:54
@Carra,
IIRC, the 59-->60 exp jump was just as much percent-wise. Also, you can buy cold-weather flying at 70 if you already have an 80.
IIRC, the 59-->60 exp jump was just as much percent-wise. Also, you can buy cold-weather flying at 70 if you already have an 80.
I'll go against the grain on this: Outland was my favorite.
After being stuck on Azeroth, and at 60 fr so long, Outland was a refreshing change - and I really enjoyed it.
Everything was so completely different, and new. I don't play WoW anymore having quit due to the easymode changes, but one of the last things I did was level an old alt up through the zones getting changed, and finally through Outland and stopping there.
I may be the minority, but I REALLY disliked the WotlK zones with the exception of the Borean Tundra. I got my 70s to 80, raided Nax and took a break. Came back, raided ICC (1st two wings - all that was open at the time) and quit again...
I'm done with WoW, but then again I liked Outland, so I'm the minority.
After being stuck on Azeroth, and at 60 fr so long, Outland was a refreshing change - and I really enjoyed it.
Everything was so completely different, and new. I don't play WoW anymore having quit due to the easymode changes, but one of the last things I did was level an old alt up through the zones getting changed, and finally through Outland and stopping there.
I may be the minority, but I REALLY disliked the WotlK zones with the exception of the Borean Tundra. I got my 70s to 80, raided Nax and took a break. Came back, raided ICC (1st two wings - all that was open at the time) and quit again...
I'm done with WoW, but then again I liked Outland, so I'm the minority.
The quests in Azeroth start to get a bit boring towards lvl 60. Hellfire is a nice change, and I always really like Zangarmarsh and Nagrand for some reason.
Blade's edge mountains not so much though, but you can finish off the track to 70 in Netherstorm, if you don't mind the somewhat odd setting of that area.
Blade's edge mountains not so much though, but you can finish off the track to 70 in Netherstorm, if you don't mind the somewhat odd setting of that area.
# posted by : 10/5/10 14:22
: 10/5/10 14:22
Everyone has already said it, but I'll say it again. Outlands is a short pit stop these days, you can literally do it in one day if you play all day, and a week tops with extremely limited play time per day, its SO easy now.
which is a shame, because the TBC instances are a lot more interesting than the wotlk ones. Ok, i did the Wotlk ones a lot, but still, Shadow labyrinth, the TK ones are a far better challenge than UK/Nexus...
I can relate to a lot of the things in Bhagpuss' post. Since there is only so much you can do with the quest based leveling system in WOW -combined with the result driven attitude needed, which i very much like to reserve for rl...- i cannot image spending much time anymore in any of its present or future incarnations. If you strip away the -questionable- social component, what gameplay is left from any MMO? Some SP games offer so much more dept, they are practically in another league, when considering things to do in your very precious and limited spare time! Still, when Cataclysm is released i will almost certainly try it, just out of curiosity. Oh and on the subject at hand, i still like vanilla WOW best and found the leveling in Outlands pretty fast with my DK (even with my extremely casual playing style).
I like the 60-70 ride much more than the 70-80 one.
What I think is that the outlandish gap is subjective and probably they will make it even faster to get through.
What I think is that the outlandish gap is subjective and probably they will make it even faster to get through.
My last alt did 26 TOTAL quests in all of the outlands. Just save up rested queue LFD and quest for instance chains or to get gear for weak slots while waiting on the queue. The more 60s you have means you can swap to something else when the rested runs out.
# posted by : 10/5/10 16:53
: 10/5/10 16:53
Having recently leveled a few characters into Northrend territory, it really seems to me that 58-68 goes by REALLY fast. Especially if you're playing at a measured pace and on rested XP, Outlands just flies by in my experience.
I too have hit that wall at 60. Outland just is not interesting anymore and is probably not worth the effort to introduce new quests.
However, it may be interesting to make zone progression not quite as linear as they are now - Hellfire to Zangar to Terrokar to Nagrand; by the time you're through Nagrand you're more than likely level 70. Blade's Edge is 15 times easier with flying mounts - why not expand the level range on Blade's Edge, Netherstorm and Shadowmoon to 66-72?
I would absolutely LOVE expansion of RAF benefits to 70, but unfortunately I have significantly less use for it now than I did 18 months ago when the current benefits were in place. However, after 5x level 80s plus four more 7x toons, Northrend is quickly becoming the brick wall. Perhaps it's time to cut the EXP needed to level to 80.
However, it may be interesting to make zone progression not quite as linear as they are now - Hellfire to Zangar to Terrokar to Nagrand; by the time you're through Nagrand you're more than likely level 70. Blade's Edge is 15 times easier with flying mounts - why not expand the level range on Blade's Edge, Netherstorm and Shadowmoon to 66-72?
I would absolutely LOVE expansion of RAF benefits to 70, but unfortunately I have significantly less use for it now than I did 18 months ago when the current benefits were in place. However, after 5x level 80s plus four more 7x toons, Northrend is quickly becoming the brick wall. Perhaps it's time to cut the EXP needed to level to 80.
This is probably laughable but due to a video card problem at the time.. I leveled to 65 on vanilla content.. by that time I was at Nagrand level (and fixed video problem) which I enjoyed and pretty much went from Northrend from there...
As everyone has already said Outlands is easy to level in now, maybe they should expand recruit a friend to it but beyond that it needs no speed increase.
My last couple characters in outlands all I did was hellfire, zangermarsh, and nagarand. I think I might have done just a few quests in blade's edge to hit 70 but it wasn't many at all.
My last couple characters in outlands all I did was hellfire, zangermarsh, and nagarand. I think I might have done just a few quests in blade's edge to hit 70 but it wasn't many at all.
By any chance, are you levelling a shaman with heirlooms?
I've levelled 6 characters through outlands. I am on my 7th - which is a shaman. This is because I have 4 Real Life friends who play, 2 of which just joined WOW for the first time a few months ago. We did a "level together" thing from January 2010 onward - Friday nights only for a couple of hours and we're at 63-64 already!
Well, we mostly have done instances together, but because some of us have heirlooms, and some others "cheat", sometimes we have to go and catch up a level by solo'ing during the week.
Well, I'm behind by 2 levels on my shaman in outland, and I'm finding it tedious questing in HFP. Why? It goes fast... but you still have to do a lot of quests to get a level. The problem is partly rewards! I'm finding that most drops for an enhancement shaman are either Chest pieces or weapons. Well guess what? I have an heirloom chest piece, and 2 heirloom weapons, so I don't need them!!
So I've been grinding quests for about 4 hours now with no tangible rewards.
But you know what's fun about outlands? Its when we do the friday night thing and do instances - so far, Hellfire Ramparts, Blood Furnace, Slave Pens, and Underbog.
Well, they are a ton of fun, and worth 1/2 of a level each. If you can do it with friends, that's awesome. if you have to group with strangers - well... your mileage may vary, but it could be great if you're all friendly and get along!
Anyways, as someone else pointed out... why am I doing HFP quests? WHY? Good point! I've done them 6 times before. I think I'll skip to Nagrand immediately after writing this -> to challenge myself a bit, and go to a zone I really enjoyed before. Then I'll skip to shadowmoon valley around 66-67 - a zone I didn't touch as much as the others.
I've levelled 6 characters through outlands. I am on my 7th - which is a shaman. This is because I have 4 Real Life friends who play, 2 of which just joined WOW for the first time a few months ago. We did a "level together" thing from January 2010 onward - Friday nights only for a couple of hours and we're at 63-64 already!
Well, we mostly have done instances together, but because some of us have heirlooms, and some others "cheat", sometimes we have to go and catch up a level by solo'ing during the week.
Well, I'm behind by 2 levels on my shaman in outland, and I'm finding it tedious questing in HFP. Why? It goes fast... but you still have to do a lot of quests to get a level. The problem is partly rewards! I'm finding that most drops for an enhancement shaman are either Chest pieces or weapons. Well guess what? I have an heirloom chest piece, and 2 heirloom weapons, so I don't need them!!
So I've been grinding quests for about 4 hours now with no tangible rewards.
But you know what's fun about outlands? Its when we do the friday night thing and do instances - so far, Hellfire Ramparts, Blood Furnace, Slave Pens, and Underbog.
Well, they are a ton of fun, and worth 1/2 of a level each. If you can do it with friends, that's awesome. if you have to group with strangers - well... your mileage may vary, but it could be great if you're all friendly and get along!
Anyways, as someone else pointed out... why am I doing HFP quests? WHY? Good point! I've done them 6 times before. I think I'll skip to Nagrand immediately after writing this -> to challenge myself a bit, and go to a zone I really enjoyed before. Then I'll skip to shadowmoon valley around 66-67 - a zone I didn't touch as much as the others.
I just saw the first comment, but I have issues once I reach level 40. I get stuck without knowing where to go and level that I like.
58-68 shouldn't take much more then Hellfire, Terrokar, and Maybe some Shadowmoon to speed up the process around 65. I usually breeze through there.
Maybe you can level all my 40's to 58 for me, and I will throw your 60's up to Northrend?
Sounds like a fair swap. Besides, then you can see some of the RP stuff that goes on out there. ;)
58-68 shouldn't take much more then Hellfire, Terrokar, and Maybe some Shadowmoon to speed up the process around 65. I usually breeze through there.
Maybe you can level all my 40's to 58 for me, and I will throw your 60's up to Northrend?
Sounds like a fair swap. Besides, then you can see some of the RP stuff that goes on out there. ;)
This whole discourse avoids the central problem of leveling.
I've still never understood why you are forced to level every single character the same way you leveled your first character.
Imagine if once you leveled a character to max level, you were given the option to create a new character at the same max level.
Now, you literally have access to every single class in the game at max level, without just repeating the same content over and over and over and over...
Of course this means that you don't need to play the game for as long to have all of those characters, and won't have to spend as much money on your account.
Besides the financial aspect in regards to Blizzard the corporation, would there be any real negatives from having a system that worked like that? I don't think any of the negatives would be substantial, and I do believe that we are forced to level because it nets Blizzard more money.
I.E. you are forced to continually re-level through the same content if you wish to experience the game through different classes. While many people are willing to do this because of the end result...is there anything positive about having to re-level each character?
And again, are there any substantially negative aspects of letting someone make new characters at max level after reaching max level with another character?
I've still never understood why you are forced to level every single character the same way you leveled your first character.
Imagine if once you leveled a character to max level, you were given the option to create a new character at the same max level.
Now, you literally have access to every single class in the game at max level, without just repeating the same content over and over and over and over...
Of course this means that you don't need to play the game for as long to have all of those characters, and won't have to spend as much money on your account.
Besides the financial aspect in regards to Blizzard the corporation, would there be any real negatives from having a system that worked like that? I don't think any of the negatives would be substantial, and I do believe that we are forced to level because it nets Blizzard more money.
I.E. you are forced to continually re-level through the same content if you wish to experience the game through different classes. While many people are willing to do this because of the end result...is there anything positive about having to re-level each character?
And again, are there any substantially negative aspects of letting someone make new characters at max level after reaching max level with another character?
Netherstorm is my favourite wow zone. Ever. I really like outland much more than Northrend, though I must admit that quests are more elaborate in the latter. Too bad outland quests don't give enough xp to get comfortably to 80.
Hey, from reading other comments, maybe outland lovers are not in such minority...
Hey, from reading other comments, maybe outland lovers are not in such minority...
@n1ck
The main reason you need to actually level a new character is to learn how to play a new class.
I know there are people who are like "WoW is so easy you don't learn to play by leveling" and "group content requires an entirely different set of skills than solo leveling so it doesn't matter", but very recently I used Recruit-a-Friend to get a friend to play WoW. However, since I was busy, he leveled up to 50ish while I was still at level 20, and thus dumped some 30 levels all on me all at once.
Let's be frank: that was a LOT of new talents and new abilities I suddenly had access to, and if I hadn't chosen to reroll a new character of the same class as my main, I would have been completely lost.
The process of leveling is therefore for much the same reason that the DK starting area slowly hands you your talent points during the entire quest chain: so you don't get overwhelmed by the amount of new stuff you suddenly have access to.
The main reason you need to actually level a new character is to learn how to play a new class.
I know there are people who are like "WoW is so easy you don't learn to play by leveling" and "group content requires an entirely different set of skills than solo leveling so it doesn't matter", but very recently I used Recruit-a-Friend to get a friend to play WoW. However, since I was busy, he leveled up to 50ish while I was still at level 20, and thus dumped some 30 levels all on me all at once.
Let's be frank: that was a LOT of new talents and new abilities I suddenly had access to, and if I hadn't chosen to reroll a new character of the same class as my main, I would have been completely lost.
The process of leveling is therefore for much the same reason that the DK starting area slowly hands you your talent points during the entire quest chain: so you don't get overwhelmed by the amount of new stuff you suddenly have access to.
@n1ck
Your suggestion is crazy, can you imgaine how bad pugging instances and raids if the 3/4 of the group had never really played their character before?
Besides, there are changes to the way you level alts once your 1st character hits 80, and they are heirlooms.
ANd I think the OL grind pales into comparison to the grind to get from 68-77, especially the early 70s. I'd love to get my warlock team to 80 before Cata drops, but I just don't think I have the mental fortitude required to do Dragonblight or Zul'drak again.
Your suggestion is crazy, can you imgaine how bad pugging instances and raids if the 3/4 of the group had never really played their character before?
Besides, there are changes to the way you level alts once your 1st character hits 80, and they are heirlooms.
ANd I think the OL grind pales into comparison to the grind to get from 68-77, especially the early 70s. I'd love to get my warlock team to 80 before Cata drops, but I just don't think I have the mental fortitude required to do Dragonblight or Zul'drak again.
I found Wrath of the Lich King had better replayability. For example I leveled my first two characters from 70 to 80 without doing a quest twice or visiting the same zone twice (except Dalaran). Basically Northrend has two sets of 4 zones, you can level Howling Fjord, Grizzly Hills, Zul'Darak, Stormpeaks, or you can level from Borean Tundra, Dragonblight, Sholazar to Icecrown.
Even better, those two characters were Horde, and when I leveled the paladin, Alliance, I found quite a lot of new quests, so most of leveling on that one was done with fresh quests again. And unlike Outland, the Alliance quests aren't simple copy&paste of Horde quests. For example the Valgarde quests are not at all similar to the Vengeance Landing quests.
Even better, those two characters were Horde, and when I leveled the paladin, Alliance, I found quite a lot of new quests, so most of leveling on that one was done with fresh quests again. And unlike Outland, the Alliance quests aren't simple copy&paste of Horde quests. For example the Valgarde quests are not at all similar to the Vengeance Landing quests.
@Mingdi and Mick
I've played WoW. I understand how the leveling process works.
I leveled 6 characters to 80, 4 of which through RAF. I had no problems picking up how to play the characters that I power leveled to 60 in a few hours.
Playing a character from 1-80 doesn't mean you know how to play your character in PvE or PvP for that matter, all you really learn is basic spam spells...
Still can't find any real negatives of my "crazy" idea. I know I'm intelligent enough to pick up a new level 80 and figure it out. It's not like there aren't hundreds of websites, forums, etc, to learn what order to press my DPS, HPS, or TPS buttons.
So, again, what negatives are there?
I've played WoW. I understand how the leveling process works.
I leveled 6 characters to 80, 4 of which through RAF. I had no problems picking up how to play the characters that I power leveled to 60 in a few hours.
Playing a character from 1-80 doesn't mean you know how to play your character in PvE or PvP for that matter, all you really learn is basic spam spells...
Still can't find any real negatives of my "crazy" idea. I know I'm intelligent enough to pick up a new level 80 and figure it out. It's not like there aren't hundreds of websites, forums, etc, to learn what order to press my DPS, HPS, or TPS buttons.
So, again, what negatives are there?
I couldn't agree less about Outland. By the time TBC hit, Blizzard had learned a lot about making quests a lot less annoying to finish. So many of the vanilla WoW quests will as you to kill 12 badgerbears and when you get to the spot where they are, there are only two of them. Or worse, collect 10 buzzardspleens and you kill 10 of them and see only one drop. Vanilla WoW is chock FULL of quests like this whereas Outland was a lot better about not being like this.
Heres to hoping that the cataclysm changes revamp all these old annoying quests.
Heres to hoping that the cataclysm changes revamp all these old annoying quests.
Still can't find any real negatives of my "crazy" idea. I know I'm intelligent enough to pick up a new level 80 and figure it out. It's not like there aren't hundreds of websites, forums, etc, to learn what order to press my DPS, HPS, or TPS buttons.
So, again, what negatives are there?
I assume the reason for a company to not do this is a commercial one. You have to keep a subscription longer if you have to level each character, instead of just being handed a L80.
So, again, what negatives are there?
I assume the reason for a company to not do this is a commercial one. You have to keep a subscription longer if you have to level each character, instead of just being handed a L80.
# posted by : 12/5/10 10:56
: 12/5/10 10:56
Fortunately, with the new LFD, if you can tank or heal, you can basically just run random after random, and it's about as fast to level that way as doing efficient questing (with something like Jame's guide). I tend to quest some but primarily favor dungeon quests or lines that lead to dungeon quests (those have the best xp and only rewards worth anything usually), and quests that are very efficient to bundle with them, or generally very efficient themselves (doing all the pirate quests in tanaris for instance), or that I just like doing for whatever reason. I skip everything else and run randoms.
I definitely didn't find outland to take too long either. On the one hand, the XP to level goes up dramatically, but so does the XP/mob and XP/quest. It doesn't take much longer to do lvl 60 in hellfire than level 59 in Azeroth.
I definitely didn't find outland to take too long either. On the one hand, the XP to level goes up dramatically, but so does the XP/mob and XP/quest. It doesn't take much longer to do lvl 60 in hellfire than level 59 in Azeroth.
I really like outlands. I can't wait to get a character up to 58, and I'm sad when i hit 68. I want blizz to increase the level 68-70 quests/kills xp rewards and decrease the wraith rewards for the same. I don't think it's fair that for one zone that's the same level but earlier content (think netherstorm), its much weaker in terms of how much effort is needed to get the same level of achievement. I also loved the fact that I just flew through outlands, i think 10 hours was a reasonable approximation, only one or two weeks real time.
Are you nuts, Tobold?
The experience curve in Outland is really fast now. I did HFP, Zangar, and about half of Terokkar, along with one run of Ramps, and one run of Blood Furnace, and voila, I was 68, with the chest/shoulder heirlooms boosting my experience.
The experience curve in Outland is really fast now. I did HFP, Zangar, and about half of Terokkar, along with one run of Ramps, and one run of Blood Furnace, and voila, I was 68, with the chest/shoulder heirlooms boosting my experience.
Apologies for the old post, but all the love for Outland is making me sentimental. I thought I was the only one who enjoyed Outland so much more than Northrend. I'm a serial altist, I currently have fifteen (!) level 80s and I never liked Northrend, from the start. My latest alt got to 72 stayed in Outland, which was great -- having the zone to yourself is fun! About that time the XP began to be too low though and I grudgingly went to boring, bleak Northrend... again. I think a large part of it is like the commenter with the Draenei said; I relate to it much more than the story in Northrend.
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