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Sunday, June 20, 2021
Endgame
I just uninstalled Wasteland 3, after reaching the point where you need to defend your Ranger HQ. And while I was at it, I also uninstalled Divinity Original Sin 2, which is a much better game, where I was also far advanced. This isn't unusual, I also played over 180 hours of Pathfinder: Kingmaker this year and stopped playing before reaching the end. I don't really enjoy the endgame of most role-playing games.
In part that has to do with the progress systems of RPGs. Whether it is pen & paper Dungeons & Dragons, or most computer RPGs, leveling up at the lower levels tends to be very interesting, giving you a big boost to your power and great new powers. At the higher levels the gains are marginal, and often not so interesting anymore. If you look at D&D, all the published modules, all the gameplay videos on YouTube and Twitch, you'll notice that very, very few people play D&D beyond level 15, and the large majority of games is below level 10.
In D&D, and in some other systems, the narrative also becomes problematic at high levels. "You open the door in the dungeon. There are three orcs playing dice in the room." makes total sense. "There are three liches playing dice in the room." doesn't. While computer RPGs usually have less problems using high-level minions, they also never explain why these people are minions if they could single-handedly defeat all of the starting zone of the game.
The last problem, which is more relevant for computer games, is that by mid-level you have worked out how the system works, and what strategies to use. Late-game new abilities tend to be just stronger versions of ones you already have, and don't really change that strategy. The harder the endgame, the less interest you have to stray from the best possible tactic, and fights become a bit sameish.
Between all of these factors, and the often not very well written endings of computer games, I frequently find myself in a situation where my ennui about the boring endgame gameplay becomes greater than my interest to see the end of the story. That is possible because I become invested in the gameplay aspects and powers of my characters more than in their story. What do I care if the Patriarch in Wasteland 3 lives or dies? He is a horrible person, but so is everybody else, and there isn't really any happy ending on offer. In Pathfinder: Kingmaker I was far more interested in the wellbeing on my kingdom than in some ancient curse on some fey. The more esoteric the endgame becomes, I'm looking at you Divinity Original Sin 2, the less I am interested.
- posted by Tobold @ 10:28 AM Permanent Link
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It's a problem with all heroic fantasy, not just RPGs and video games. As the narative takes the characters further and further beyond not just the experience of the reader but beyond the capacity of the reader to empathize or associate with the experience of the protagonists, the whole thing begins to seem increasingly abstract. I suspect the overriding most people get to the end of any of these things is a combination stubborness (not letting the thing beat you) and discomfort (not wanting to walk away leaving something unfinished). I strongly doubt that enjoyment and interest are the main motivators for seeing it right through to the end.
I think a large part of it is that you start off as a young adventurer in an unknown world, where defeating a rat is a triumph, and as Tobold says, you are continually getting new powers that change the game up. You lose that as time goes on, and unless the story is really compelling, it's completionism that makes you carry on.
And I could rarely summon up that sort of completionism even before now, when I have a zillion unplayed games in my library (and I recently bought a laptop with a good graphics card, so my playable library just expanded).
It is a rare CRPG that I actually finish. There have been a few.
And I could rarely summon up that sort of completionism even before now, when I have a zillion unplayed games in my library (and I recently bought a laptop with a good graphics card, so my playable library just expanded).
It is a rare CRPG that I actually finish. There have been a few.
@Tobold
If you look at D&D, all the published modules, all the gameplay videos on YouTube and Twitch, you'll notice that very, very few people play D&D beyond level 15, and the large majority of games is below level 10.
I have not played D&D since 2E, but your mention of published modules makes it sound as if those modules are the only way that people can play the game. Most of the D&D shops in the 80's were a gold mine of assistance, where you could bring a character sheet, register it on-site, and play to your heart's content. You could have as many registered character sheets as you wanted on-site, and could play any of them depending on the session you wanted to join. I had as many as 10 PC's at one point, and levelling your character to higher levels was the name of the game back then, as there was an associated prestige that came from getting your character(s) beyond a certain level(in certain content) without dying. Death was permanent(unless you got an extremely lucky Deity Call roll), and a nice big red stamp(indicating the character died) was plastered on the front before the sheet was given back to you in case you wanted it for a keepsake. But back to my point: these D&D clubs offered unpublished and player generated content by which a player could level their characters in preparation for a tournament - that was based on an actual sanctioned module.
The fact that Twitch gamers rarely go beyond level 15 is just a sign of the times, and would not have been a thing back in the day. Have the edition updates(since 2E) really changed the focus and reason for playing D&D that much?
If you look at D&D, all the published modules, all the gameplay videos on YouTube and Twitch, you'll notice that very, very few people play D&D beyond level 15, and the large majority of games is below level 10.
I have not played D&D since 2E, but your mention of published modules makes it sound as if those modules are the only way that people can play the game. Most of the D&D shops in the 80's were a gold mine of assistance, where you could bring a character sheet, register it on-site, and play to your heart's content. You could have as many registered character sheets as you wanted on-site, and could play any of them depending on the session you wanted to join. I had as many as 10 PC's at one point, and levelling your character to higher levels was the name of the game back then, as there was an associated prestige that came from getting your character(s) beyond a certain level(in certain content) without dying. Death was permanent(unless you got an extremely lucky Deity Call roll), and a nice big red stamp(indicating the character died) was plastered on the front before the sheet was given back to you in case you wanted it for a keepsake. But back to my point: these D&D clubs offered unpublished and player generated content by which a player could level their characters in preparation for a tournament - that was based on an actual sanctioned module.
The fact that Twitch gamers rarely go beyond level 15 is just a sign of the times, and would not have been a thing back in the day. Have the edition updates(since 2E) really changed the focus and reason for playing D&D that much?
@NoGuff: 5E D&D culture is unrecognizably different from 2E D&D culture. 5E has gone mass market, with millions of viewers watching people play D&D on Youtube and Twitch. There are celebrities playing D&D and people who became celebrities by playing D&D. The pandemic has moved lots of games online to virtual tabletop platforms. The local gaming store D&D game might still exist, but it has become a much smaller part of a billion dollar business these days.
Literally the only computer RPG I have ever finished (and I've played quite a few) is Jade Empire (and you could make a reasonable case that it isn't really an RPG, even by the rather slack standards of CPRGs).
What I always hated in MMOs was the constant "monster" recycling technique all over the place. You start at level 1 and your first enemy is a wasp. That's fine. Then 3 months later you're level 100 and you find a very similar place with the exact-same enemies... Which are level 100 too. World of Warcraft players know what I mean.
@Tobold
5E D&D culture is unrecognizably different from 2E D&D culture.
Based on your post, and your stated opinion that players no longer want to pursue levelling, I would say that something in the culture has greatly changed. Whether it is caused by the Twitch effect, or in how the modules themselves are designed, the endgame was the goal when I played because the modules increased in difficulty at higher levels, and the prestige I spoke of above was a very real thing. It was the e-peen of the day to have a maximized character sheet that other players would pine over having, and a major part of the prestige came from the fact that the D&D shops would certify the authenticity of max level characters(based on observed creation rolls and other criteria) and would even have the uber ones on display out front. Why even play D&D if continued character development is no longer considered a "thing"?
5E D&D culture is unrecognizably different from 2E D&D culture.
Based on your post, and your stated opinion that players no longer want to pursue levelling, I would say that something in the culture has greatly changed. Whether it is caused by the Twitch effect, or in how the modules themselves are designed, the endgame was the goal when I played because the modules increased in difficulty at higher levels, and the prestige I spoke of above was a very real thing. It was the e-peen of the day to have a maximized character sheet that other players would pine over having, and a major part of the prestige came from the fact that the D&D shops would certify the authenticity of max level characters(based on observed creation rolls and other criteria) and would even have the uber ones on display out front. Why even play D&D if continued character development is no longer considered a "thing"?
@NoGuff
It isn't that leveling isn't a "thing" anymore, but more that after a certain point leveling ceases to be fun. Just as in many video games, what you gain at lower levels is interesting or useful almost every level. At higher level, new powers or a few more hit points often aren't that interesting. Since monsters rarely last more than a few rounds, adding a ton of abilities to them doesn't make them an interesting challenge, but more of a headache for the GM.
I've been GMing for more than 30 years. I knew people who were all excited about their 35th level character or whatever. (Back when things didn't always stop at 20.) It's been a long, long time since I encountered anyone really excited about high level characters. Occasionally drooling over a single high level ability, but never about the entire long road to get their. In my experience, most D&D and Pathfinder games end without getting much above 10th level, if that.
Note that this isn't just d20 games. Shadowrun. Superhero. Star Wars. Zombie apocalypse. Our games, and the games described to me by people I know, just run their course in more like six months or a year.
It isn't that leveling isn't a "thing" anymore, but more that after a certain point leveling ceases to be fun. Just as in many video games, what you gain at lower levels is interesting or useful almost every level. At higher level, new powers or a few more hit points often aren't that interesting. Since monsters rarely last more than a few rounds, adding a ton of abilities to them doesn't make them an interesting challenge, but more of a headache for the GM.
I've been GMing for more than 30 years. I knew people who were all excited about their 35th level character or whatever. (Back when things didn't always stop at 20.) It's been a long, long time since I encountered anyone really excited about high level characters. Occasionally drooling over a single high level ability, but never about the entire long road to get their. In my experience, most D&D and Pathfinder games end without getting much above 10th level, if that.
Note that this isn't just d20 games. Shadowrun. Superhero. Star Wars. Zombie apocalypse. Our games, and the games described to me by people I know, just run their course in more like six months or a year.
@NoGuff: You can draw a parallel to gaming in general. When gaming was a niche activity, the "thing" was hardcore gamers excelling at a given video game. Today, gaming is main stream, and the "thing" is posting a video of your Animal Crossing island on YouTube. It's about the experience itself, not about excelling.
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