Ah yes, great, it's always the fault of the left, of course. I suppose you also believe in the deep state?
You should reread your post, because it contains so much crap I don't know where to start:
- "Moral outrage doesn’t win votes", well, considering that the right-wing kept screaming about decaying morals due to giving rights to LGBT and implementing DEI policies, it seems that it works quite well at winning votes.
- "Democracy is in danger. Not by democratically elected parties...", no democracy is in danger because the right has gone on for years screaming "STOLEN ELECTIONS" and spewing continuous allegations of election fraud with zero evidence. Also look at media: if the left were to do the same crap that Musk is doing you'd be submerged by non-stop "OMG communist propaganda".
- "they’ll never get around to explaining to the voter why these federal employees were necessary in the first place" they have and noone is listening, not even you, quite clearly.
- "having better policies than the other side does." no it doesn't. Left policies about immigration are light years ahead of the right's who can only propose a view of society based on hatred. You should reread what you wrote in the past: it's you who described right-wing policies as "hurting immigrants more that you're being hurt" to win votes. And it clearly works.

 

Thank you Helistar for providing an almost perfect example of what Tobold was talking about. It will be interesting to see where that road leads to. Good luck.
 

@Helistar I don’t believe in partisanship. If you believe that one side is always right, and should never be criticized, you’ll be wrong regardless of which side that is. On your points: 1) The culture war is background noise. Republicans won the last election mostly for economic reasons, because voters felt hey were economically less well off than 4 years ago. As I said, that is good news for democrats, because those same voters will be again worse off in 4 years from now.
2) You are blind on one eye and can’t see that what is happening is the same stuff in a different flavor on both sides. It is always the winner who isn’t complaining, and the loser who suggests that the winning votes for some reason wren’t actually valid and expressing the will of the people. Whether you say “election fraud” or call the other voters “fascist” is just different ways to express that idea.
3) I am watching US media every day, mostly those with a left wing bias. And all I am currently seeing is moral outrage on the administration not following procedures, and sob stories about veterans losing their government jobs. If, as you say, “nobody is listening”, maybe the left isn’t doing a great communication job.
4) Left wing immigration policy being “light years ahead”, on what yardstick? Light years ahead on the most humane treatment of immigrants on a yardstick of moral righteousness? Maybe. Light years ahead on addressing voter concerns of immigration being something that the US is in full control of, certainly not. There is a manner and level of legal immigration that the general public in many rich countries is totally fine with. The world wide voter concern on immigration is that their countries have lost control, leading to too many people getting in, and possibly not the ones the receiving country wants and needs. Polls after polls everywhere have shown that this is a big concern for a large chunk of voters, and in most countries the left parties policy was the “this is fine” meme.
 

My kid in high school spouts that same stuff at me, and I ask "What does any of that do to help me if I'm worried that with eggs at $12/dozen that I can't put food on the table for my family?" The look of "does not compute" on her face tells me everything I need to know about the chances of the Dems in the next election.

I then watch episodes of the West Wing to restore my faith in humanity.
 

Has anyone noticed that there are no more new TV series about the White House anymore? We went from West Wing to House of Cards to Veep to the clown show of today’s reality in one straight downhill slide.
 

All I hear from the democrats now is along the line of "we got the message wrong". It reminds me of the tories here in the uk in the last election when they were more concerned with saying the right thing to trick the voters into voting for them than just doing what the majority of the voters want.
 

There are two different things that you conflated together : screaming 'all opponents are fascists" that is stupid, and 'some policy supported by the party or put in place are fascist/authoritative/dangerous for democracy' that is actually true.

My issue with your post is that, by combining the two, you are helping to hide the real risk for democracy. We have seen again and again that the counterbalance power such as justice, education or press can only work for so long until the far-right party is able to gradually remove them.

Are the Democratic party efficient at fighting against far-right ? Not really. Between those that are re-using their message in order to convert their voter, only reinforcing them by making them mainstream, those that make noise without doing or proposing anything, and those that clings to power without seeing the perfect storm coming, I am not very optimistic.

My only hope is that people are still attached to liberty and democracy forcing the would be dictator to slow down, or even been thrown down.But their will be pain, suffering, and it is best to avoid it.
 

Sorry for the second comment, but by re-reading your post, I missed another point : what you call 'style' in democracy is in fact really important: respecting the law and its spirit is what keep the laws efficient. Law is not a Physics constraint, but is only upheld if everyone agree that it not possible to not respect them. By showing disdain for the actual rules, the Trump administration is in fact removing them, until the 'rule of law' is no longer true, and thus democracy no longer exists.

I can accept that I lose an election, that my preferred policy are not put in place, but weakening democracy is an order of magnitude more dangerous.

Trump could fire half of the civil servants by going through legal democratic approach. The DOGE team could ask the right from parlement to implement automatic AI check to find fraud. The real risk is not the policy but the fact that they are doing it without respecting rules of democracy.
 

I think you answered your own question - a scripted TV show can no longer outdo reality. :-)
 

'some policy supported by the party or put in place are fascist/authoritative/dangerous for democracy'

Which ones exactly? While I am not personally in favor of mass deportations or the firing of lots of federal employees, I would argue that Trump based his election campaign on promising to do exactly these things. A democratic majority voted for Trump, in full knowledge of those promises. I would therefore conclude that these things are very democratic, and are exactly what the electorate wanted and voted for.

That is exactly my point: The left thinks that some of their points of view are "morally superior", and that everybody voting against those things is "a fascist" or at least deluded. Why can't we accept that there is a majority of Americans who *want* the things Trump promised? That is backed up by current poll results, where the democrats are lower than ever in the polls. Voters generally like "strong leaders", even if those strong leaders lead them in the wrong direction. I think that Americans in general, on both sides of the aisle, are aware of Trump's character flaws. The losing side in an election can't claim to have superior policies, communication, and having done everything right. If that had been the case, people would have voted for them. To do better next time around, you need to be aware what you did wrong for this election. Because the only one who by definition of democracy is never wrong is the voter.
 

Also, calling people fascists (or misogynists or racists) is probably not the best strategy for motivating them to vote for you. Though it would be a change of pace to see an ad that says "You're too dumb to buy Carlsberg." Probably.
 

(On second thought, "You're probably too dumb to buy Carlsberg" might be more in line with Danish sensibilities)
 

They tried "You're probably too fascist to buy Bud Light", but it wasn't a big success. :)
 

Tobold I'm interested to know what you would consider actual fascism.

I would definitely consider Trump to be someone with facistic tendencies. I also think if he could govern like a fascist he would as he clearly tries to yet is stopped by the checks on his power. Why is it "wrong" to call him a fascist?

The polls in America show the election wasn't decided by anything being talked about here but simply by most Americans feeling the economy was bad and wanting a change. If in 4 years things haven't improved for them I imagine the exact same scenario will play out and we'll have another party in power.

I'm also kind of baffled that this whole post is about the left generalizing the right yet multiple people, including you Tobold, are doing the exact same thing to the left.
 

Trump definitely has fascist tendencies. If he could, he would like to stay in power beyond his current term, although that is clearly unconstitutional. He is also clearly uncomfortable with the checks and balances of the US system.
But that was not the platform he was running on. He promised his voters a reduction of the size of the bloated state bureaucracy, and to get rid of immigrants. That isn’t fascist, and the people who voted for that aren’t fascist. Putting somebody on a plane back to Guatemala isn’t the same as putting somebody into a concentration camp and gassing him.
I’ve read an article where the author compared the US to Nazi Germany, because it doesn’t allow them to freely choose whatever gender they want on their passport anymore.
17 million people died to the Holocaust, of which 6 million were Jews. I find it extremely insulting to their memory if every possible right-of-center policy is equated with that.
 

Yeah I agree with that. While there are definitely real self proclaimed Neo Nazis and fascists that support Trump it's not a majority of Republican voters. It's not even their largest subgroup.

On that same token the majority of Democratic voters aren't blue haired hippies screaming about banning plastic straws or being the pronoun police.

On the topic of what Trump is actually doing you have a mix of a couple factors. The first is traditional media who always sensationalizes stories for ratings. The second is a social media culture where disinformation thrives and most users don't read past the title of a post.

If you go in Twitter you might see users celebrating mass deportation and Trump taking their country back from these scum who have invaded it.

If you go on reddit you might see users celebrating local activists who interfere in ICE raids and protect their community from the brown shirts that are akin to a modern day Gestapo.

What's the reality? The reality is despite Trumps bold proclamation about mass deportation he is deporting less migrants than Biden was. Mirroring what happened in his first term where he didn't keep up with Obama's numbers and Biden later surpassed his.

As it turns out mass deportations require more effort than just saying they are going to happen. And despite increasing arrest numbers the administration has already had to engage in "catch and release" because they don't have sufficient space or workers to hold the increased number of arrested migrants.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/trump-set-broaden-arrests-deportation-routes-expand-immigration-crackdown-2025-02-21/

Now notice how legacy media no longer talks about mass deportation on the front page? I'd wager it's because they A) realized they weren't really happening and B) Got all the juice they could out of photographing ICE officers out in the field.

Obama's title of Deporter in Chief is safe for the next four years in my opinion.
 

On a slightly different tangent what's concerning for me as a 34 year old Millenial is not specifically that Trump is going to stay in office past this term or proclaim himself king, but the amount of damage he will do to the federal government over these next four years.

The brain drain caused by workers fleeing his actions is worrying and the loss of experienced people in critical positions is something I think about.

I also worry that a politician far more competent than Trump and his inner circle can and will continue to strengthen the power of the executive.

I'm also worried that despite all the setbacks the Democratic party refuses to embrace populist policies and is still completely controlled by liberals and corporate interests. As long as the party is still beholden to the "good billionaires" it will continue to be a disunifed mess of a party with sub groups fighting each other for scraps power.
 

Well, not very far it would seem, since it only repeated the same stuff. Before replying I wondered if it would had been more interesting to respond in right-wing style. The one where you "promise blood" if you don't get what you want (Trump) or simply accuse the other of being a pedophile (Musk), since it seems that for him this is just the same as whatever the left is doing, but it's more likely to get me banned, so I skipped it.
 

@Helistar But I totally agree with you that both Trump and Musk are horrible, self-centered people who should not even lead a company, even less a country. All I am saying is that voting for Trump in the USA or voting for the AfD in Germany doesn’t make a voter a fascist. Being “morally superior” in their own mind doesn’t make left parties win votes. The charge against them is that they are too self-absorbed, too remote on their ivory tower, to understand the day-to-day issues that voters base their decisions on.
If you believe that votes are based on moral superiorty, then how do you explain that 50% of US voters voted for Trump?
 

"It is always the winner who isn’t complaining, and the loser who suggests that the winning votes for some reason weren't actually valid and expressing the will of the people." this shows you're not even understanding the problem. When you claim that the elections are stolen you're threatening one of the foundations of democracy: elections. This is not the same as insulting the opposite side, which is just standard practice nowadays. The same problem is with "respecting the rules": laws are not there to look nice, they exist to guarantee a working society. Pardoning 1500 people who attacked congress is like saying "go ahead" to any group wanting to attempt a coup: again an attack on the foundations of a functioning democracy.

"Left wing immigration policy being “light years ahead”, on what yardstick?" the yardstick of reality. All western democracies have birth rates below or well below replacement, which, in an economy based on consumption, is catastrophic, since it leads to degrowth. It's not a matter of being morally righteous, it's a matter of needing the workforce. The difference between right and left is that the left wants that workforce to be legal immigrants, i.e. people, the right wants that workforce to be illegals, i.e. slaves with no rights. Also, those "voter concerns" come a lot from right-wing media conflating anything which involves immigrants. I always "joke" that if I run someone over with a car the title will be "a road accident", if one of my arab friends does it the title will be "potential terrorist attack".
 

@Bigeye As a European and historically minded person, I am more worried about a new version of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.
 

@Helistar I am not quite sure how you get from "We will mass deport every single illegal immigrant!" to "We want a workforce of illegals as slaves". I think you are confusing your outdated ideas of what right-wing politicians usually want with the far more populist Trump policies, which aren't as much in support of cheap labor for US businesses as previous GOP administrations. Trump is trying, and rather successfully so, to win the vote of the rural American working class person, who sees immigrants as competitors for unskilled jobs, low-cost housing, and various state services.

It is very interesting to look at Canada, who had a highly pro-immigration policy for years. Now Trudeau, a left-wing politician, is backpedaling on immigrations, admitting that Canada overdid it, causing massive problems with integration and the housing market.

I do agree that rich countries need a relatively high amount of immigration due to demographic problems, but getting the level and the process right is not obvious. Besides the consideration of how much immigration per year a country can integrate, there are also questions on the morality of causing a brain drain in the countries of origin.

I don't agree that calling a large number of voters fascist is just name-calling the other side. It is an attempt to invalidate the validity of their vote. It is an attempt by the left to claim that they did everything right, and they only lost the election because sinister forces were against them. What you don't seem to understand is that I *want* the democrats to win the next election. I just believe that the only way to do so is for them to understand what they did wrong, and where they completely misread the electorate. It takes a special skill to lose an election against a horrible person like Trump.
 

I don't believe that voting for Trump makes a voter a fascist. I think that the left is (unfortunately) learning and just like the right kept screaming "communists" at the left, now the left have learned to scream "fascist" at the right, even if both are much closer to the center. I very much don't like the current state of the left, which is becoming a diluted version of the right in its attempt to win votes. I'm also seeing this on Youtube, where what was a swarm of right-wing disinformation has now become a swarm of right-wing AND left-wing disinformation, both just as bad.
 

On the 1st part: there's talking about mass deportations and then there's actually doing them. I see a lot of talk and not much doing, so for me this is just that the right, just like the left, is completely aware that immigration is a requirement to keep the population increasing or at least stable, so they deport a minimal amount just for show but then keep all the rest for low-paid jobs. The problem with immigration is that integration at least takes one generation, and this is assuming that the children can get to an education level which makes them useful for the high-paying jobs and society does not make them feel rejected, i.e. DEI, because good luck doing meritocratic recruiting when a lot of the media keeps repeating that immigrant=rapist. The right is failing hard on both counts, one the one side by cutting education spending and on the other by fuelling hate. The left is better on paper, but spending on education means you need the money (i.e. taxes) and the ridiculous hunting for votes with the "yes, actually immigrants may be bad" makes them lose on both counts. Too left to actually get the center-right vote, enough on the right to lose the left vote.

"It is an attempt by the left to claim that they did everything right...". I disagree on this: insulting the opponents does not invalidate their vote as claiming that the election was manipulated. Also "sinister forces": it's the right which pulls out the sinister "deep state" forces to justify themselves every time they fail (at times intentionally) to get what they want. The left says that it's the evil Russia which is meddling with the vote, and Trump is doing his best to make it look like it's true.....
Personally, I think that if democrats win the next election they will look more and more like the right, simply because when you see that an approach works, you adopt it. So it's more like a lose-lose situation. And I think that their candidate will be a white man and not Kamala Harris.
 

The Overton Window is shifting to the right again, after decades of the pendulum swinging left. Political parties follow the electorate. After all, democracy is a popularity contest. It doesn't help if policies are "better" on an abstract scale, as long as they aren't perceived as being better by the voters.
 

Anti-democratic or autoritarian act :
- Cut funding that has been voted by parliament
- Pardonning people that has tried to do a coup
- Cutting access to a major press
- Forbidding science topic that are against his position
- nominating people for their loyalty in position traditionally held by experts
- disband the team that was investigating election fraud
- giving access to citizen personal data to unauthorized people
- align its geopolitical position to authoritarian countries against democratic allies
- nominated people that openly declared they will pursue their political opponent
- Decide to fire police officers that have investigated against the coup

All of these decisions are weakening democracy and balance and checks. Some of those attempted have been stopped or delayed by juge, but it still undermines Rules of Law. None of those acts are politic statements aligned with Right, Left, Democrates or Republican policies.