Wednesday, April 12, 2006
Hunters and class balance
I was wondering why hunters have such a bad reputation. If you'd do a poll asking World of Warcraft players what classes they are most likely to invite into their group, given the choice, hunters would figure at or near the bottom of the list. Which I don't think is totally justified.
One problem with hunters is pet pathing and control. The famous situation where the hunter jumps down a ledge, and the pet decides to take the long way around, aggroing about 20 mobs on the way that wipe the group, is more of a caricature than reality. A good hunter can take control of his pet and jump with it, or he stows it away for the jump. And of course a good hunter has his pet on defensive mode in a group, and watches that the pet doesn't run off after some mob.
The more fundamental problem with hunters is the same problem I have with my paladin, class balance of hybrid classes. A MMORPG has basic functions, like tanking, damage dealing, and healing. Some classes are specialized in one of these functions, and by necessity these classes are the best in that particular function. Other classes have several functions at once, a hunter can tank with his pet, heal his pet, and deal damage with his ranged attacks. But if any of these functions would be better than a specialist class, nobody would play the specialist any more. For class balance, if you can do several things, you must be less good in them. But in a group situation, three specialists are better than three hybrids.
Groups basically form by finding a warrior, a priest or healing-specced druid, a dedicated damage dealer like a mage or rogue (depending on whether you need AoE or not), and then just has two "random" spots in which you can invite any class, hunters and paladins included. But the way classes are distributed on a typical server, there are far too many people around that can only fill the random spots, and a perennial shortage of healers. Even warriors, although one of the most popular classes, are very sought-after, because there is no other class that could really replace them as tanks.
Hybrid classes are popular, because while they are less optimal in group situations, they are often better in solo and PvP situations. For example I have a defensive specced warrior, which is great in groups, okay in soloing, and just plain useless in PvP. His major function in groups in taunting, which doesn't do anything in solo or PvP situations. If you want to do a mix of many different activities, a hunter would be a better choice.
Which brings me to the final point of the hunter's reputation problem. The one where I have to express myself very carefully, if I don't want to find lots of arrows in my back and angry cats at my heels. :) By the nature of their class, hunter is a good choice for casual players not highly interested in groups and end-game content, while only a small percentage of "leet" hardcore players do choose it. So any given hunter you meet, even at level 60, has a relatively high probability to have done little grouping, and be not very experienced in group situations. And of course it is people who don't have much group experience who end up making the mistake that wipes the group. I've seen a hunter walk backwards in Molten Core, to get to a better shooting distance, and aggroing a giant standing behind him. It is easy to see how such situations can lead to a "all hunters are idiots" prejudice, which like all prejudices is not fair. I've played with very good hunters which knew how to play in a group very well, and had their pet under perfect control. You certainly want to have *some* hunters in your raid group, even if you probably don't want them to be the most numerous class in the raid.
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*Sound of the arrow leaving the sinew* :)
The hunter is very much underestimated i would say. He is very versatile and one of the highest damage dealers in End-Game Instances.
The Pet can function as an Offtank in smaller instances (up to UBRS and ZG AQ 20) for trashmobs. CC is not the best, but a freezing Trap can be redone by feigning death.
The hunter is the best Puller in the Game. (in MC some pulls are nearly impossible to do without a hunter)
Savrukk
(everytime i post here i say to myself that i have to register ;) )
The hunter is very much underestimated i would say. He is very versatile and one of the highest damage dealers in End-Game Instances.
The Pet can function as an Offtank in smaller instances (up to UBRS and ZG AQ 20) for trashmobs. CC is not the best, but a freezing Trap can be redone by feigning death.
The hunter is the best Puller in the Game. (in MC some pulls are nearly impossible to do without a hunter)
Savrukk
(everytime i post here i say to myself that i have to register ;) )
I wouldn't even try to pull General Drakki'sar in UBRS without a hunter. But after ducking behind some arrow-proof cover I might dare to mention that us going to MC with 8 hunters in the raid group might be slightly sub-optimal. How many pullers does a raid need? How many tranquilizing shots? And unfortunately ice traps don't work very well in lava either. :)
Having said that, I'm always happy to have one hunter in a 5-man group, especially since most of the hunters in our guild are playing their class very well. I sometimes suspect that the inadequacies of programs like Damagemeters, which doesn't correctly count pet damage, leads to a wrong impression about hunters true damage output, which is massive.
Having said that, I'm always happy to have one hunter in a 5-man group, especially since most of the hunters in our guild are playing their class very well. I sometimes suspect that the inadequacies of programs like Damagemeters, which doesn't correctly count pet damage, leads to a wrong impression about hunters true damage output, which is massive.
One of the issues, I think, is that Hunters are (with Warlocks and Druids, from what I hear) one of the subtlest and hardest-to-play classes, precisely because of their range of abilities.
Certainly in a five-man group, that makes a great Hunter invaluable - he's DPS (nearly able to compete with mages and rogues), off-tanking (the pet can hold aggro like nothing on earth, and stand up a surprisingly long time to even high-level elites), crowd-control (Ice Traps are, in many instances, equivalent to or even better than sheeping, if used right), emergency wipe protection (Feign/Goblin Jumper Cables XL) and more. However, that very flexibility means that at any time you're juggling about 35 different things, and it's oh-so-easy to f--- one of them up. (BTW - pets should be *passive*, not defensive, IMO).
And the consequences of getting it wrong are normally Bad. As in "I've just backed into a giant" Bad or "Whoops, Multi-shot didn't hit what I expected" Bad.
BTW, I've been running instances in a two-man party for a while (up to and including Sunken Temple), as well, and I don't think that would even be possible in a party that wasn't composed of hybrids (a hunter and a pallie, in my case). It's the fact that a two-person group composed of that mix has two healers, two people who can res, two tanks, one DPS, one to two crowd controllers...
- Hugh
Certainly in a five-man group, that makes a great Hunter invaluable - he's DPS (nearly able to compete with mages and rogues), off-tanking (the pet can hold aggro like nothing on earth, and stand up a surprisingly long time to even high-level elites), crowd-control (Ice Traps are, in many instances, equivalent to or even better than sheeping, if used right), emergency wipe protection (Feign/Goblin Jumper Cables XL) and more. However, that very flexibility means that at any time you're juggling about 35 different things, and it's oh-so-easy to f--- one of them up. (BTW - pets should be *passive*, not defensive, IMO).
And the consequences of getting it wrong are normally Bad. As in "I've just backed into a giant" Bad or "Whoops, Multi-shot didn't hit what I expected" Bad.
BTW, I've been running instances in a two-man party for a while (up to and including Sunken Temple), as well, and I don't think that would even be possible in a party that wasn't composed of hybrids (a hunter and a pallie, in my case). It's the fact that a two-person group composed of that mix has two healers, two people who can res, two tanks, one DPS, one to two crowd controllers...
- Hugh
As someone who plays a 60 hunter I think I can say some of the dislike for hunters is justified, and some of it is a lack of understanding about hunters.
Hunters are a class that is very easy to play, but very hard to play well. Sadly many of the tactics involved in playing well have been broken in recent patches, making the difference between an excellent hunter and an average hunter less evident (I place myself firmly in the "average" category).
Hunters solo marvelously. You can solo to 60 with a hunter quite easily. But hunters don't bring much to a group, especially dungeon instance groups where tight corridors and small rooms can make ranged attacks impossible to get off. Hunter melee, despite rumors to the contrary, is pathetic. I respecced to marksman mainly to get Trueshot Aura, a group buff. I was trying to offer more group utility. Yet in most raids I seem to end up in a group full of casters, or with another hunter who also has trueshot, and no amount of explaining to the raid leader will get me moved. Sigh.
Pet control has also become HARDER than it used to be. Blizzard keeps futzing with the pet AI, making it better, then next patch making it worse. In one patch they added functionality where pets would cease attacking a mob that got CC'ed. Perfect! Then in the next patch they broke it. Now if a mob has EVER dealt damage to the hunter or the pet, the pet will immediately run to attack it (cc'ed or not) once the current pet target dies. Once again, its 'pet on passive or put it away'.
Hunters are picked up in groups solely as a source of DPS, and DPS can also be provided by mages, warlocks, shaman, rogues, cat form druids, and even fury warriors. Each of those classes brings a host of other group useful abilities, whereas the only thing the hunter really brings (that people want) is freezing trap, and I've yet to encounter a group that didn't constantly break freezing trap anyway :b
Hunters are a class that is very easy to play, but very hard to play well. Sadly many of the tactics involved in playing well have been broken in recent patches, making the difference between an excellent hunter and an average hunter less evident (I place myself firmly in the "average" category).
Hunters solo marvelously. You can solo to 60 with a hunter quite easily. But hunters don't bring much to a group, especially dungeon instance groups where tight corridors and small rooms can make ranged attacks impossible to get off. Hunter melee, despite rumors to the contrary, is pathetic. I respecced to marksman mainly to get Trueshot Aura, a group buff. I was trying to offer more group utility. Yet in most raids I seem to end up in a group full of casters, or with another hunter who also has trueshot, and no amount of explaining to the raid leader will get me moved. Sigh.
Pet control has also become HARDER than it used to be. Blizzard keeps futzing with the pet AI, making it better, then next patch making it worse. In one patch they added functionality where pets would cease attacking a mob that got CC'ed. Perfect! Then in the next patch they broke it. Now if a mob has EVER dealt damage to the hunter or the pet, the pet will immediately run to attack it (cc'ed or not) once the current pet target dies. Once again, its 'pet on passive or put it away'.
Hunters are picked up in groups solely as a source of DPS, and DPS can also be provided by mages, warlocks, shaman, rogues, cat form druids, and even fury warriors. Each of those classes brings a host of other group useful abilities, whereas the only thing the hunter really brings (that people want) is freezing trap, and I've yet to encounter a group that didn't constantly break freezing trap anyway :b
As a mmorpg vet of nearly 10 years, before I dove into WoW a few months back I researched the classes to see which would most fit my playstyle - which due to frequent AFK breaks and sporatic playschedule, turned out to be a hunter. And as I got through my mid teens, I thought I was fairly good. In truth, I was probably high average at best - there's a limit to what you can learn reading.
It took grouping with a kind person, now a trusted source of advise and wise cracks, to show me the massive errors of my ways. There's more to the hunter than standing back going plink plink, but I see so many doing that. To me, the class is a lot like EQ's necromancer. A simple class to play ok, but requires skill, practice, and effort to play really well. I know I did things in EQ with my necro that left lots of people going "WTF?" since they didn't understand how to blend the skills. The hunter seems to be a lot like that. Even minor things like using traps when splitting camps, or heck even for just pulling a harder-thatn-normal mob, pet management (ok, this is a HUGE one and can make a big difference), and lots of other stuff really makes it a fun class to play. I have no flase ideals that I'm super hunter guy now, but I'm pretty sure I'm much better than I was, just based on what I see other hunters around me doing.
Oh, and I still have backed into mobs (as recently as 3 nights ago) sadly. It doesn't happen often, but man you feel like a moron doing it.
It took grouping with a kind person, now a trusted source of advise and wise cracks, to show me the massive errors of my ways. There's more to the hunter than standing back going plink plink, but I see so many doing that. To me, the class is a lot like EQ's necromancer. A simple class to play ok, but requires skill, practice, and effort to play really well. I know I did things in EQ with my necro that left lots of people going "WTF?" since they didn't understand how to blend the skills. The hunter seems to be a lot like that. Even minor things like using traps when splitting camps, or heck even for just pulling a harder-thatn-normal mob, pet management (ok, this is a HUGE one and can make a big difference), and lots of other stuff really makes it a fun class to play. I have no flase ideals that I'm super hunter guy now, but I'm pretty sure I'm much better than I was, just based on what I see other hunters around me doing.
Oh, and I still have backed into mobs (as recently as 3 nights ago) sadly. It doesn't happen often, but man you feel like a moron doing it.
"Are you a confirmed soloist? Want to avoid other people except when you have to *use* others as a means to get something otherwise unattainable? Why not become a hunter?"
The trouble with hunters isn't so much the class - they have their uses, properly played - as the chuckleheads who choose to play them.
The trouble with hunters isn't so much the class - they have their uses, properly played - as the chuckleheads who choose to play them.
this is by far the best discussion of this i've come across. me = big, big noob trying to choose another class the right way and this kind of info is way hard to find. good stuff.
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