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Tuesday, April 11, 2006
The Kleenex guild
The longer I play World of Warcraft, the more confused I get about its social aspects. What exactly *is* a guild in this game? I think the problem is that nobody really knows, and everybody has a different idea, often incompatible with that of his guild mates.
My personal idea of a guild is the guild as a voluntary assembly of players with the goal of playing together. Playing together with people you know has both social advantages, you feel more at ease with friends than with strangers, and game advantages, you can achieve goals together which you would be unable to reach alone. As there are many different goals to pursue in a MMORPG, in my opinion a guild should consider everybodies goals as equally important. Guild mates should spend a maximum possible time playing together, with people taking turns in proposing what to do next, receiving help from the guild to achieve their goals today, and then being willing to do something that helps somebody else tomorrow.
Unfortunately I found that in reality guilds don't work like that in WoW. A typical guild only has about 10% of people willing to help somebody when there is nothing for them to be gained. A real guild is not about mutual help, it is about following a path that leads from level 1 to 60, and them via smaller dungeons to Molten Core, Blackwing Lair, and whatever Blizzard builds behind that. This path is the lowest common denominator. People hop on a guild which is at a suitable stage on that path for them. They play with guild mates only when there is an event that suits their personal goals. And if the guild doesn't advance the path as fast as the players ambitions, the player just hops off again, and joins the next guild further along the path.
When I'm online with my level 60 character, I often get requests to help some complete stranger doing an elite quest or even running him through a dungeon. And most of the time I tell them that I would do that for a guild mate, but not for a stranger, and suggest he asks his guild to help him. But on any server where a good number of people have reached level 60, guilds don't help their own low level guild mates any more. Leveling up to 60 is considered as something you should do solo, as is getting equipment, earning money, and doing quests. Many guilds don't even have low level characters any more, you may only apply if you are level 60, and have all the necessary prerequisites to go raiding. The top guilds even require things like Onyxia's key, which is impossible to solo, so they are basically requiring you to have gotten all the prerequisites with another guild and then switch.
In the extreme the guild then becomes mono-functional, most often a pure raiding guild. The guild does not help the players any more, unless they happen to have exactly the same goal as everybody else, killing the next boss in the raid circuit. The player becomes a servant of the guild. If his performance isn't adequate, if he has the wrong class, wrong talent build, or his raid attendance record isn't squeaky clean, he gets kicked out of the guild. I've seen a guild websites with rules which threatened members with dismissal if they went on holiday for more than 1 week.
On new servers guilds often invite lots of people at first, establish some sort of average advancement speed, and kick out the players falling behind. On the high end, people leveling up faster than the average just leave the guild on their own and join a faster guild. On the new server that opened last Thursday, I joined a guild on Friday, and Saturday I observed the guild master kicking out everybody who hadn't been online since 2 days. Guild membership becomes as disposable as a Kleenex, there is no more loyalty from the member towards his guild, nor from the guild towards a member.
Now if you look at years of discussion about the longevity of MMORPGs, a widely held theory was that games should force people to play together, thus overcoming a natural reluctance to make social bonds. Then when the players had become friends, they would stay in the game for a much longer time, regardless of content, with the social ties holding them much longer than the interest in the pure game would. I can't help but think that the Kleenex guild system which develops in WoW is counterproductive to that. Whether you are in a guild that is advancing faster than you and either kicks you out or just ignores you without helping you, or whether you make friends just to lose them a bit later when they move to a bigger guild, the disposable guild system isn't likely to tie you to the game with social bonds. And if you play the guild-hopping game, sooner or later you burn out, because having to keep up with your guild mates is mandatory, and thus feels more like work than like play.
Some games already automatically put you in a newbie guild with your level 1 character. If being in a guild is only about being at the same level of development as the others, and keeping up with them, we might soon see a new system: You will be automatically guilded in the newbie guild at level 1, will automatically leave that guild at level 10 and automatically join the level 10 to 19 guild, and so on to level 60 and beyond. Who needs friends when they only slow you down on your inevitable path towards phat loot? Sad days indeed.
- posted by Tobold @ 1:45 PM Permanent Link
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I have to agree with Brian. I don't think you *have* to join into the "Kleenex-Guild" philosophy. There are other options out there, you just have to find them and recognize them.
On my server, sure we have some high-end guilds that raid incessantly. But we also have quite a few middle-level guilds that raid but not with the same strict mandates as the high-end. The guild I joined is very relaxed in its approach. We do raid consistently, MC, Ony, AQ20, ZQ, starting on BWL, starting on AQ40, but attendance isn't mandatory and you can take a break, if you want, for as long as you need.
It's the people in a guild that make or break it. If the people are pleasant and friendly and understanding, you'll likely have a pleasant experience. If the people are strict, militaristic about attendance and equipment, and inflexible then your experience will probably not be good. Look for a good group of people and you'll probably find a guild worth joining.
On my server, sure we have some high-end guilds that raid incessantly. But we also have quite a few middle-level guilds that raid but not with the same strict mandates as the high-end. The guild I joined is very relaxed in its approach. We do raid consistently, MC, Ony, AQ20, ZQ, starting on BWL, starting on AQ40, but attendance isn't mandatory and you can take a break, if you want, for as long as you need.
It's the people in a guild that make or break it. If the people are pleasant and friendly and understanding, you'll likely have a pleasant experience. If the people are strict, militaristic about attendance and equipment, and inflexible then your experience will probably not be good. Look for a good group of people and you'll probably find a guild worth joining.
# posted by 
: 11/4/06 17:23
: 11/4/06 17:23
I feel very lucky in having found a great guild. It was started by a core of real-life friends who had played Asheron's Call together for several years, then started playing WoW together. The ages of the members range from children under ten to folks over fifty. The levels range from one to sixty, and all have been helpful and generous with items, gold, time, and knowledge. Guild drama is virtually non-existant. Membership requirements are based on personality and compatibility rather than level, gear, and motives. They truly are a guild geared towards playing a fun game with friends, and I'm lucky to have found them.
CATFISH, JUST GREAT!
CATFISH, JUST GREAT!
# posted by : 11/4/06 17:53
: 11/4/06 17:53
The guild I joined on the new server is deliberately a Kleenex guild, just an attempt to make finding a group for instances easier. But that is not my normal approach to guilds, I just don't think I could be actively involved in more than one "real" guild.
On Runetotem I joined a guild I knew from EQ2 on day 1 of the server, and after over one year I'm still with them. And there are some people in that guild that have a similar attitude to guild loyalty. But we seem to have an endless stream of people joining and then leaving a few months later, which causes a lot of sadness and stress in the people who stay behind. I mean, its sad enough if people leave a guild because they stop playing a game, but that is inevitable. I just object to the "I'm leaving your guild to join a guild that is deeper into MC/BWL" philosophy.
The "real life friends" approach is certainly the nicest guild possible, but who has 39 real life friends all wanting to play WoW at the same time?
On Runetotem I joined a guild I knew from EQ2 on day 1 of the server, and after over one year I'm still with them. And there are some people in that guild that have a similar attitude to guild loyalty. But we seem to have an endless stream of people joining and then leaving a few months later, which causes a lot of sadness and stress in the people who stay behind. I mean, its sad enough if people leave a guild because they stop playing a game, but that is inevitable. I just object to the "I'm leaving your guild to join a guild that is deeper into MC/BWL" philosophy.
The "real life friends" approach is certainly the nicest guild possible, but who has 39 real life friends all wanting to play WoW at the same time?
I suppose yes, if you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY care about the high end raiding in WoW you have to have the "Kleenex" philosophy - or certainly be ready to abandon people who won't help you run them.
Personally I could give a shit about it. I don't give a flying rat's ass whether I ever even see Onyxia, or Ragnoros, or whoever the hell else it takes 40 people to see. MMO sessions with that many people usually suck ass anyway. Like going out for a leisurely drive during rush hour. Just fuckin' stupid.
That being said my guild doesn't have a problem with people dropping it because we actually are here for each other, give a damn about each other, and would rather run something like Sunken Temple, BRD, or Strat than tag along with 40 some-odd strangers just to see Mob that's so big it probably won't fit on your computer screen anyway.
I would get too hung up on the Raid bullshit Toby. It really is a completely different game. It's great for the people who are into it - but most people playing WoW won't be that much into it. They don't have 6 Million subscribers because of the 40 Man raid content.
Pardon all the harsh language... I'm feeling like a sailor today!
Er.. not in THAT way...
Oh nevermind!!
http://www.travisandjonathan.com/brokeback.html
Personally I could give a shit about it. I don't give a flying rat's ass whether I ever even see Onyxia, or Ragnoros, or whoever the hell else it takes 40 people to see. MMO sessions with that many people usually suck ass anyway. Like going out for a leisurely drive during rush hour. Just fuckin' stupid.
That being said my guild doesn't have a problem with people dropping it because we actually are here for each other, give a damn about each other, and would rather run something like Sunken Temple, BRD, or Strat than tag along with 40 some-odd strangers just to see Mob that's so big it probably won't fit on your computer screen anyway.
I would get too hung up on the Raid bullshit Toby. It really is a completely different game. It's great for the people who are into it - but most people playing WoW won't be that much into it. They don't have 6 Million subscribers because of the 40 Man raid content.
Pardon all the harsh language... I'm feeling like a sailor today!
Er.. not in THAT way...
Oh nevermind!!
http://www.travisandjonathan.com/brokeback.html
# posted by : 11/4/06 19:46
: 11/4/06 19:46
I've noticed the same thing, and there's almost pressure to do so based on how WoW seems to work. The guild I'm in is a microscopic guild, and I like it that way. At last count, there were 20 chars tagged, and of them, half are alts. Like someone else said; it's a chat channel for friends. I'm finally at the level to group with the higher ups where it's not them pounding me through an instance, and it's fun.
However, lately as I look for higher level instance groups, it's hard to find. Guild groups are prevelant. Someone even told me that unless I'm guilded in a guild that runs those, that I should expect to not see them but rarely.
Sometime, once I'm not half asleep from lack of caffiene, I'll have to try and figure out of this is more of a design- or enviroment-caused phenomenon.
However, lately as I look for higher level instance groups, it's hard to find. Guild groups are prevelant. Someone even told me that unless I'm guilded in a guild that runs those, that I should expect to not see them but rarely.
Sometime, once I'm not half asleep from lack of caffiene, I'll have to try and figure out of this is more of a design- or enviroment-caused phenomenon.
# posted by : 11/4/06 22:22
: 11/4/06 22:22
Well with a 6 million player community, you have way more focused endgame guilds than any other game. Those are the ones wich have to watch its effiency. For every slacking member they kick out, two new ones are ready to join.
Another thing is teaching a new player to advance on its own, up to the end (lvl60). You just can not expect, that those people from one moment to the next turn into social carebears.
I experienced both sides. The guilds where social bonds were more important than ingame progress, and the pure progression focused guilds. Both work, you just have to choose whats more important to you. I doubt that there are top endgame guilds, wich consists of 40 "friends". Many hardcore guilds are full of big egos, wich just know their stuff, thats why there were invited in the first place. A guild can be the most decent social network, when the members just dont know crap, this guild will not progress.
Another thing is teaching a new player to advance on its own, up to the end (lvl60). You just can not expect, that those people from one moment to the next turn into social carebears.
I experienced both sides. The guilds where social bonds were more important than ingame progress, and the pure progression focused guilds. Both work, you just have to choose whats more important to you. I doubt that there are top endgame guilds, wich consists of 40 "friends". Many hardcore guilds are full of big egos, wich just know their stuff, thats why there were invited in the first place. A guild can be the most decent social network, when the members just dont know crap, this guild will not progress.
# posted by : 12/4/06 09:51
: 12/4/06 09:51
A guild can be the most decent social network, when the members just dont know crap, this guild will not progress.
I totally agree. But the point of a social guild is that "progress" in a MMO isn't necessarily the most important thing for everybody. Not everybody is an "achiever" Bartle type. It is not that you can't do anything at level 60 if you don't progress in the big raid dungeons.
If you have a social guild that never gets past a certain point in Molten Core, you will have some people leaving for a more successful guild. But others will be content with what the guild can achieve, and maybe even be happy if the guild supports other activities, like smaller instances or PvP, which a pure raiding guild often neglects. There is no "you win" screen in World of Warcraft attached on Nefarion's behind, progressing towards killing him is just one of many possibilities this game offers. If you have a strong "socializer" Bartle type component in your character, you might not want to give up your social guild for the achievement that the raiding guild offers.
I can see the less ambitious guilds killing Nefarion in a year, using a raid full of level 70 characters. It won't be the same "achievement" as killing him at 60 now, but at least many people get to see the content that was previously reserved for the famous 3.6% of hardcore raiders.
I totally agree. But the point of a social guild is that "progress" in a MMO isn't necessarily the most important thing for everybody. Not everybody is an "achiever" Bartle type. It is not that you can't do anything at level 60 if you don't progress in the big raid dungeons.
If you have a social guild that never gets past a certain point in Molten Core, you will have some people leaving for a more successful guild. But others will be content with what the guild can achieve, and maybe even be happy if the guild supports other activities, like smaller instances or PvP, which a pure raiding guild often neglects. There is no "you win" screen in World of Warcraft attached on Nefarion's behind, progressing towards killing him is just one of many possibilities this game offers. If you have a strong "socializer" Bartle type component in your character, you might not want to give up your social guild for the achievement that the raiding guild offers.
I can see the less ambitious guilds killing Nefarion in a year, using a raid full of level 70 characters. It won't be the same "achievement" as killing him at 60 now, but at least many people get to see the content that was previously reserved for the famous 3.6% of hardcore raiders.
But others will be content with what the guild can achieve, and maybe even be happy if the guild supports other activities, like smaller instances or PvP
I have some fresh guild drama for this exact situation. As i said, i got kicked out some weeks ago. Well that kick should have been a warning sign for the rest of the guild - a guild with more than 50% of the people know and meeting each other in real life on a regular basis. Guild moral droped down and my disband was aiming to wake up the majority of players, wich were "slackers" for most of the time. I was a easy target for this, cause most of the guild disliked me.
Well the plan didnt worked out and since my farewell, 3 very active and socially heavy bonded players quit. What im tryin to say is, even the most socializer types, will not endure years without any form on ingame progression. This is a major concern for WoW right now, cause there is no mudflation on a 6-month-cycle, wich pushes even the non-hardcore guilds progression wise. WoW also lacks on the social area in general. There is no usefull LFG tool. You do not meet new folks, cause everyone is locked up in their own instance. There are no situations, where you can make an impression, with rezzing you neighbour grinding group, cause they wiped.
To make a long story short, your entry is absolutely correct and there are reasons for the situation. But there are still guilds focusing on social aspects rather than endgame content. But those guilds have a harder time in WoW, compared to my experience with other games.
I have some fresh guild drama for this exact situation. As i said, i got kicked out some weeks ago. Well that kick should have been a warning sign for the rest of the guild - a guild with more than 50% of the people know and meeting each other in real life on a regular basis. Guild moral droped down and my disband was aiming to wake up the majority of players, wich were "slackers" for most of the time. I was a easy target for this, cause most of the guild disliked me.
Well the plan didnt worked out and since my farewell, 3 very active and socially heavy bonded players quit. What im tryin to say is, even the most socializer types, will not endure years without any form on ingame progression. This is a major concern for WoW right now, cause there is no mudflation on a 6-month-cycle, wich pushes even the non-hardcore guilds progression wise. WoW also lacks on the social area in general. There is no usefull LFG tool. You do not meet new folks, cause everyone is locked up in their own instance. There are no situations, where you can make an impression, with rezzing you neighbour grinding group, cause they wiped.
To make a long story short, your entry is absolutely correct and there are reasons for the situation. But there are still guilds focusing on social aspects rather than endgame content. But those guilds have a harder time in WoW, compared to my experience with other games.
# posted by : 12/4/06 12:51
: 12/4/06 12:51
I wonder if this is one of the differences between RP and non-RP servers? Certainly I've not even encountered this phenomenon on Earthen Ring - all the guilds that I regularly deal with are more than happy to help their lower-level members, and indeed often total strangers who approach them with well-worded requests their characters would respond to.
I wonder if this is because there's an additional reward on an RP server, that of fun roleplaying and in-character relationship building, that isn't present on an OOC server?
- Hugh
I wonder if this is because there's an additional reward on an RP server, that of fun roleplaying and in-character relationship building, that isn't present on an OOC server?
- Hugh
# posted by : 12/4/06 13:04
: 12/4/06 13:04
This is why I guite WoW...it became to much "work" to have fun anymore...its hard to find a guild that is both "guild friendly" AND "raid friendly" (meaning higher end raids)
# posted by : 12/4/06 14:43
: 12/4/06 14:43
mono-cultures
This is a good write up. Thanks.
WoW is unique because it has an easy leveling curve, is hugely popular, but it also is distinct by having a clearly defined end-game (raids). Very few MMO's I think are as well designed -- or as narrow, if you want -- with their presentation of an end-game. Since grouping is necessary for a number of reasons, it may be inevitable that the behavior of guilds as entities and the behavior of members within guilds in WoW is always going to be defined by its unique characteristics. Since the design is laissez faire (there are no constraints or consequences for selfish behavior) people will always take the best path for their advancement and treat their guild and PUG's as just tools to help them progress. Groups are not, like you infer, ends in themselves. Fellow players aren't ends in themselves. I mean, being honest, some players in WoW even have a hard time seeing other avatars as people, partly because of the cartoony art, partly because of the end game pursuit. In a game that's so clear of what the advancement path should be there's a real risk that guilds are going to end up as mono-cultures. Everyone doing the same raids, everyone doing the same square-dance tactics to take down the boss, everyone treating each other the same.
This is a good write up. Thanks.
WoW is unique because it has an easy leveling curve, is hugely popular, but it also is distinct by having a clearly defined end-game (raids). Very few MMO's I think are as well designed -- or as narrow, if you want -- with their presentation of an end-game. Since grouping is necessary for a number of reasons, it may be inevitable that the behavior of guilds as entities and the behavior of members within guilds in WoW is always going to be defined by its unique characteristics. Since the design is laissez faire (there are no constraints or consequences for selfish behavior) people will always take the best path for their advancement and treat their guild and PUG's as just tools to help them progress. Groups are not, like you infer, ends in themselves. Fellow players aren't ends in themselves. I mean, being honest, some players in WoW even have a hard time seeing other avatars as people, partly because of the cartoony art, partly because of the end game pursuit. In a game that's so clear of what the advancement path should be there's a real risk that guilds are going to end up as mono-cultures. Everyone doing the same raids, everyone doing the same square-dance tactics to take down the boss, everyone treating each other the same.
I was in a high-end Nef-killing guild before I quit WoW. I was a Dwarf Priest, so pretty useful and constantly being asked to help out on failing Scholomance runs or to go farm demons in Winterspring for someone's priest Epic, etc. The vast, vast majority of times I wouldn't go and help them, and the reason is really pretty simple: I didn't LIKE those people. Of all my guildmates, I'd only consider three or four to be my friends.
On paper, of course, a guild should all be instant friends, thick as thieves and ready to help each other out. But I didn't join the guild to make friends (I wanted to, but the chances of finding people I'm going to like in WoW are pretty slim, especially in a 150 member raiding guild). I joined the guild purely because of the way WoW's end-game is designed, requiring a guild for progress. I think it's inevitable that the majority of players in WoW will join a guild to progress their character, rather than to be part of a social milieu.
I'm reminded of the slides from the recent GDC, which stated that players who use voice chat utilities find themselves liking their guildmates less, even though they form closer ties. The relationships feel more "real" and substantial, but the fact remains that these are people who you probably hated at high school and college. Of course you're not going to help them!
On paper, of course, a guild should all be instant friends, thick as thieves and ready to help each other out. But I didn't join the guild to make friends (I wanted to, but the chances of finding people I'm going to like in WoW are pretty slim, especially in a 150 member raiding guild). I joined the guild purely because of the way WoW's end-game is designed, requiring a guild for progress. I think it's inevitable that the majority of players in WoW will join a guild to progress their character, rather than to be part of a social milieu.
I'm reminded of the slides from the recent GDC, which stated that players who use voice chat utilities find themselves liking their guildmates less, even though they form closer ties. The relationships feel more "real" and substantial, but the fact remains that these are people who you probably hated at high school and college. Of course you're not going to help them!
# posted by : 14/4/06 04:56
: 14/4/06 04:56
HEHE
A guild is what you make it.
I went 0-60 basically solo, keyed up and ever't'ing. I now belong to a wonderful guild that raids and strives to maintain a more relaxed 'family' atmosphere. Personally, I think a guild should have a vision and a purpose, and you should look for a guild that fits [b]YOUR[/b] goals, not the other way around.
You will never find a [i]perfect[/i] guild, but you can find a close fit if you really want to.
:p
~B
A guild is what you make it.
I went 0-60 basically solo, keyed up and ever't'ing. I now belong to a wonderful guild that raids and strives to maintain a more relaxed 'family' atmosphere. Personally, I think a guild should have a vision and a purpose, and you should look for a guild that fits [b]YOUR[/b] goals, not the other way around.
You will never find a [i]perfect[/i] guild, but you can find a close fit if you really want to.
:p
~B
# posted by : 2/5/06 16:13
: 2/5/06 16:13
Well, I was an officer in a casual-hardcore guild, and because of the fact I didn't level as fast as the majority of the leadership, I was also in charge of the low level instancing and help.
What I have experienced in WoW guild area is that the Guilds are nothing more but a end game grinding tools. Which is sad and too bad, as the guilds could be very involving entities in the game.
There should be some other guild based involvement in the game to make it worth while to join a guild in 1-60 bracket and for the Guild to support the lowbie people. Guild cities? Guild trainers? Guild trading posts? Guild economics and/or guild operated dungeons/instances?
There are possibilities and opportunities, but instead Blizzard has decided to milk the (almost dead) cow as long as possible extending the level cap and ignoring the real development of the mid-level content and longevity of the game.
Oh, yes: the guild disbanded and I'm now on another server on another region soloing up from scratch. Unless someone comes up with a good offer for mid-level instancing, I stay solo.
Copra
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What I have experienced in WoW guild area is that the Guilds are nothing more but a end game grinding tools. Which is sad and too bad, as the guilds could be very involving entities in the game.
There should be some other guild based involvement in the game to make it worth while to join a guild in 1-60 bracket and for the Guild to support the lowbie people. Guild cities? Guild trainers? Guild trading posts? Guild economics and/or guild operated dungeons/instances?
There are possibilities and opportunities, but instead Blizzard has decided to milk the (almost dead) cow as long as possible extending the level cap and ignoring the real development of the mid-level content and longevity of the game.
Oh, yes: the guild disbanded and I'm now on another server on another region soloing up from scratch. Unless someone comes up with a good offer for mid-level instancing, I stay solo.
Copra
# posted by : 24/8/07 12:16
: 24/8/07 12:16<< Home
