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Sunday, May 14, 2006
Crash and Burn
My short attempts at guild leadership of the World of Warcraft chapter of the Order of the Rose Croix on Runetotem ended with a crash and burn, me leaving that guild after having been with them since EQ2, and playing WoW with them since the European servers opened.
Now telling this story is going to get me into further trouble, I've been already been told in the past to not discuss guild business in a public place. Especially since I "tell the story only from my point of view". Well, that kind of is the definition of a blog. I'll try to tell this story as balanced as I can. I need to write it, as writing helps me to deal with the stress and unpleasantness. But don't be surprised if you find some nasty flames in the comments section.
The Order of the Rose Croix is much older than my participation in it, having started in Dark Age of Camelot. It is a multi-game guild, currently present in several major games. But given the market share of World of Warcraft it isn't surprising that most of the forum activity is about WoW. When WoW started the guild leadership was already in place. The guild founder isn't playing any more, but Wivelrod, the previous second in command managed the guild. I have the greatest respect for Wiv, he is a very intelligent and nice person, and spent a lot of his personal time setting up the guild website and forums.
Getting along with the other guild officers at the time was less easy, they are a rougher bunch, and they have a different view of the game than I have. The Order of the Rose Croix was set up, by the guild charter and the people that got invited, to be a "relaxed, fun, and casual guild". That suited me just fine, but it turned out that the officers evolved into liking the raid game more than the casual style. That lead to them leaving for a big raiding guild on the same server, Borderland Legion.
The Order of the Rose Croix recovered from that, with new officers inviting new people, and getting a range of activities running, including raiding. As the server got older, more and more people became mainly interested in the raid game. But there were still lots of casual players, so turning ORC into a raid guild would obviously not work. So an amicable guild split was organized, setting up a raiding guild and a casual guild, with a common chat channel. During this reorganization I offered to become officer in the casual half, and ended up as guild master of that half. At that point I got access to the officers forum on the website.
Now due to the split our recruitment rules and application forum was in a bit of a mess. So I spent half a day writing a set of instructions on how to apply to join the Order of the Rose Croix in WoW, for the casual half. During this writeup I omitted putting in a rule we had, that applicants need to quit their own guild before even writing an application. I didn't find that rule very important, but although it is impossible for me to prove intent, I didn't conciously leave it out, it just got lost in the shuffle. So when somebody still in a guild applied, another officer pointed out that this rule existed, but wasn't in the text. So I put up a post in the officers forum saying "my bad, but before I put the rule back into the text, can we discuss whether we really need it?".
I got some sensible replies to that, on why we would need that rule, because it showed the commitment of the applicant. I proposed a formulation, the others agreed, and I amended the text in the application forum. But then I got a nasty text in that same officers forum, saying that I had omitted the rule intentionally, and that I was trying to play boss, changing the rules on my own, without consulting the officers. The strange thing was that this post was from one of the officers who had left the guild last year. So I got upset and basically told him that he didn't have any business in that, him not being in the guild any more. This lead to the inevitable flame war, with me and another WoW ORC officer on one side, some moderates in the middle, and several ex-officers of ORC now with a Borderland Legion guild tag on the other side. I was basically told that I didn't have the right to change any guild rules. So I said that I couldn't be guild master if I wasn't allowed to do anything, with contant interference from people with a different guild tag, and offered my resignation.
Then something strange happened, and I don't know who is behind it. Suddenly a previously invisible section of the guild forums was visible to me. It turned out that there always was an "officers club" forum, visible and accessible only to section of people calling themselves "guild officers", in which all of the ex-officers of ORC were hanging out. People like me and most of the other "chapter officers" didn't have access to that forum. On the forum was a sensible post by Wivelrod, asking the others to take the flames out of the visible officers forum, and to discuss the matter in the privacy of the secret forum. Believing that only they could read it, the ex-officers didn't mince their words. Them being British, I considerably expanded my vocabulary of British slang. I did understand most terms, like "wanker", but am still a bit unsure about the exact meaning of "tosser", not that I suspect it is a polite term. The most polite comment was that I should be allowed to stay because nobody else was willing to take the job.
So that was it. I found my guild had a bizarre leadership structure, with a secret "officers club" of people thinking they were still running things, in spite of having left WoW, or having switched to Borderland Legion. And obviously the name-calling from them was pretty hurtful. I'm sure I hurt these guys as well, with my comments, but you know my writing style, it might be acidic, but I don't generally use swear words as a means to get my point across. Being pretty sure that Dagoon and Cravex would continue to harass and insult me if I stayed, I transfered the GM title of the ORC WoW chapter to another officer with his agreement, sent him the contents of the guild bank, and quit the guild with all my characters. That was hard, because I do like the people that are actually in the guild, I'm just at odds with some of those who left, or rather didn't really leave. There is a subtle irony behind the fight starting with the discussion whether somebody with a foreign guild tag was committed enough for being invited, and the people shooting me down for it having a foreign guild tag.
For the time being I'll stay unguilded for a while. Maybe it is even time to take a break from WoW, such guild drama sure removes the fun from the game. I'd still be curious to find out how it came that I suddenly had access to the secret officers club forum. Was the access there since some time, and I hadn't seen it? Had Wivelrod slipped up when distributing access rights? Or is Wiv a more clever politician than I gave him credit for, giving me access on purpose and starting that thread so I could see what really was going on in the background, with me leaving the inevitable consequence? Or was it somebody else? I'll probably never will know.
- posted by Tobold @ 6:45 AM Permanent Link
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This whole incident has been one sorry mess and I'm saddened to how it has turned out :( To clear a few things up though, the Officers Club is not a secret society within the guild, its a place for all officers of the guild no matter the game, past and present to discuss issues that effect the guild as a whole. You would have got access to it after a month or two once proven as an officer. Things were said in there that shouldn't have been, but in the defense of everyone it was thought to have been private :/ it wasn't intentional for anyone to get hurt.
Finally you yourself Tobold had conflicting interests, on one hand you were a member of a guild that on some occasions would have issues that need to be discussed and kept within the guild (like all guilds) and on the other you had your blog. Unfortunately your blog won out sometimes and you openly critised some of the past officers in the WoW chapter which can be just as hurtful as any name calling :( and it was that that lead to any conlict !
I hope lessons have been learnt on both sides, I wish you the best of luck you are a good bloke :)
Finally you yourself Tobold had conflicting interests, on one hand you were a member of a guild that on some occasions would have issues that need to be discussed and kept within the guild (like all guilds) and on the other you had your blog. Unfortunately your blog won out sometimes and you openly critised some of the past officers in the WoW chapter which can be just as hurtful as any name calling :( and it was that that lead to any conlict !
I hope lessons have been learnt on both sides, I wish you the best of luck you are a good bloke :)
# posted by 
: 14/5/06 09:29
: 14/5/06 09:29
Being the guildleader of the Borderland Legion, I feel obliged to advance my oppinion on this topic, as it appears to me, that a damning light is cast onto my guild – and therefore the people in it.
My remarks won’t get too personal, yet personal enough to forward, what seems important to me:
This is whole occurence seems like nothing, but a failure to me, a huge failure, due to the lack of communication.
We (as in “everyone of us”)should be aware, that written communication is suited perfectly to cause misunderstandings. Internet-communication, be it on boards, in chatrooms or in games, has several profound flaws. Even when we talk face-to-face to someone, it is almost impossible for us to communicate our point of view properly most of the time. If we take away 80% of what is relevant – for the speaker as well as the recipient and vice versa – to “guarantee” for a consensus in spoken language, the so-called non-verbal communication (gestures, facial expression, pitch of voice, body language), all that remains is a pretty imprecise instrument to reconcile: Welcome to the internet. Discussions are being fought tenaciously, with no party moving a single inch away from their viewpoint.
Regarding to what has happened: Is there someone to blame for ? There surely is. But liability always has two faces. Both of the parties involved failed miserably at communicating. Instead of trying to talk, each party decided to tough it out.
Several conclusions being made in your post, Tobold, indicate a lack of factual knowledge. And as well all know, assuptions are the mother of all f*ck up’s. There isn’t being mentioned, that the concerned ex-ORC-members have been aligned in friendship to many of the Borderlanders since Everquest(even before the foundation of ORC in DaoC), the “secret behind the clandestine officer-club” has just been revealed in the previous post and there are more inaccuracies. And I am as safe as houses, that the other party being involved has been susceptible to assumptions as well, culminating in the debacle, we are just experiencing.
The sad thing is, that all these problems could have been avoided with a bit endeavour by both parties being involved in this drama. There are no winners in this discussion, but people, who you call friends, suffering, due to your inability to talk to each other. Therefore my advice is, that all of you try to work things out once and for all. You have summoned these shadows together, one alone can not drive them away.
And if you think you, that you are in need of a mediator, just holler, and i’ll glady help out.
Sincerly,
--Kilgrim
My remarks won’t get too personal, yet personal enough to forward, what seems important to me:
This is whole occurence seems like nothing, but a failure to me, a huge failure, due to the lack of communication.
We (as in “everyone of us”)should be aware, that written communication is suited perfectly to cause misunderstandings. Internet-communication, be it on boards, in chatrooms or in games, has several profound flaws. Even when we talk face-to-face to someone, it is almost impossible for us to communicate our point of view properly most of the time. If we take away 80% of what is relevant – for the speaker as well as the recipient and vice versa – to “guarantee” for a consensus in spoken language, the so-called non-verbal communication (gestures, facial expression, pitch of voice, body language), all that remains is a pretty imprecise instrument to reconcile: Welcome to the internet. Discussions are being fought tenaciously, with no party moving a single inch away from their viewpoint.
Regarding to what has happened: Is there someone to blame for ? There surely is. But liability always has two faces. Both of the parties involved failed miserably at communicating. Instead of trying to talk, each party decided to tough it out.
Several conclusions being made in your post, Tobold, indicate a lack of factual knowledge. And as well all know, assuptions are the mother of all f*ck up’s. There isn’t being mentioned, that the concerned ex-ORC-members have been aligned in friendship to many of the Borderlanders since Everquest(even before the foundation of ORC in DaoC), the “secret behind the clandestine officer-club” has just been revealed in the previous post and there are more inaccuracies. And I am as safe as houses, that the other party being involved has been susceptible to assumptions as well, culminating in the debacle, we are just experiencing.
The sad thing is, that all these problems could have been avoided with a bit endeavour by both parties being involved in this drama. There are no winners in this discussion, but people, who you call friends, suffering, due to your inability to talk to each other. Therefore my advice is, that all of you try to work things out once and for all. You have summoned these shadows together, one alone can not drive them away.
And if you think you, that you are in need of a mediator, just holler, and i’ll glady help out.
Sincerly,
--Kilgrim
# posted by : 14/5/06 10:26
: 14/5/06 10:26
Sorry tobold, I screwed up the permissions. I totally forgot I added you as an Admin to help you manage user permissions. On top of that, somehow the entire forum had been opened to all registered users, probably by accident when setting up new forums for the OBC.
as Dem said, the Officer club was meant for the guild founders and long running officers only. It's there for those members to have their say on how ORC is run. I was hoping to redirect those members anger away from you and channel it into something more constructive than simply name calling and finger pointing.
Unfortunately I was out all day yesterday with the camera getting some great macro shots and only realised my mistake this morning :(
as Dem said, the Officer club was meant for the guild founders and long running officers only. It's there for those members to have their say on how ORC is run. I was hoping to redirect those members anger away from you and channel it into something more constructive than simply name calling and finger pointing.
Unfortunately I was out all day yesterday with the camera getting some great macro shots and only realised my mistake this morning :(
No damning light intended on Borderland Legion, that just happens to be the guild tag of the people I was fighting with.
Totally agree on the "lack of factual knowledge" part. There were lots of things going on that I wasn't aware of, many things I still don't know. As you said, communication was bad, and the communication medium being the internet made it worse. For example my beef with the ex-officers started last year when they "suddenly" left the guild. Of course that was *not* "suddenly", it had been discussed in length on the officers forum. Only that the officers forum wasn't visible to me, nor to the other guild members, and we just saw the "we're leaving" announcement on the day they left. That made it *look* a lot worse than it was. And in the other direction I imagine that the ex-officers don't know everything that went on in the current ORC WoW chapter, due to them not being in guild chat any more, and there were probably misunderstandings in that direction as well.
There are no winners in fights like these, only losers. I'm certainly liable for a part of the mess. But I don't think this is something where a mediator can help. While the tone of the discussion could have been a lot nicer, the fundamental disagreement about the degree of influence that people outside a guild chapter should have remains. I have no idea how Borderland Legion would handle a BL officer leaving for Ad Nauseam, for example. Would he lose posting rights on your forums, and especially the officer's forum? I would guess that in most guilds that would happen.
Of course the "gaming community" approach where people never leave is a completely valid choice. But unfortunately people leaving guilds is often involving disagreements and fights. The ORC DAoC chapter isn't talking with the other ORC chapters. The ORC officer that invited me to the guild back in EQ2, Youch, left long ago, and by the flame war traces I see on my blog, that separation involved a lot of harsh words too, with the same people I fought with. So in the end I have to balance the good that could come from me staying, with the bad that would come from my vicinity to people I don't really like, who hate my guts and aren't shy to express that. So I'd rather stay out of "ORC the multi-game community", where me staying would cause lots of trouble. And I'll stay in contact with "ORC the WoW chapter", where the people I'd call my friends are concentrated.
One lesson learned is that if I ever join another guild, I'll tell them about my blog before, and only join if they are okay with it. The blog is an important part of my life. I've been blogging my virtual WoW life since the US beta in 2004, had a daily journal in the first months of the European WoW server, and am keeping the journal up to date with all important things that happen to me in the game. Quitting a guild after being with them for a long time is a major event, and I can't possibly *not* report it. I think guilds would be better off with less secrecy, less "internal guild matters that can't be discussed".
Totally agree on the "lack of factual knowledge" part. There were lots of things going on that I wasn't aware of, many things I still don't know. As you said, communication was bad, and the communication medium being the internet made it worse. For example my beef with the ex-officers started last year when they "suddenly" left the guild. Of course that was *not* "suddenly", it had been discussed in length on the officers forum. Only that the officers forum wasn't visible to me, nor to the other guild members, and we just saw the "we're leaving" announcement on the day they left. That made it *look* a lot worse than it was. And in the other direction I imagine that the ex-officers don't know everything that went on in the current ORC WoW chapter, due to them not being in guild chat any more, and there were probably misunderstandings in that direction as well.
There are no winners in fights like these, only losers. I'm certainly liable for a part of the mess. But I don't think this is something where a mediator can help. While the tone of the discussion could have been a lot nicer, the fundamental disagreement about the degree of influence that people outside a guild chapter should have remains. I have no idea how Borderland Legion would handle a BL officer leaving for Ad Nauseam, for example. Would he lose posting rights on your forums, and especially the officer's forum? I would guess that in most guilds that would happen.
Of course the "gaming community" approach where people never leave is a completely valid choice. But unfortunately people leaving guilds is often involving disagreements and fights. The ORC DAoC chapter isn't talking with the other ORC chapters. The ORC officer that invited me to the guild back in EQ2, Youch, left long ago, and by the flame war traces I see on my blog, that separation involved a lot of harsh words too, with the same people I fought with. So in the end I have to balance the good that could come from me staying, with the bad that would come from my vicinity to people I don't really like, who hate my guts and aren't shy to express that. So I'd rather stay out of "ORC the multi-game community", where me staying would cause lots of trouble. And I'll stay in contact with "ORC the WoW chapter", where the people I'd call my friends are concentrated.
One lesson learned is that if I ever join another guild, I'll tell them about my blog before, and only join if they are okay with it. The blog is an important part of my life. I've been blogging my virtual WoW life since the US beta in 2004, had a daily journal in the first months of the European WoW server, and am keeping the journal up to date with all important things that happen to me in the game. Quitting a guild after being with them for a long time is a major event, and I can't possibly *not* report it. I think guilds would be better off with less secrecy, less "internal guild matters that can't be discussed".
Wivelrod said...
Sorry tobold, I screwed up the permissions.
How disappointingly mundane. I had a short vision of Wivelrod as the Bismarck of WoW (Bismarck once started a Franco-Prussian war with leaking the "Ems telegram", after some editing, to the public). :)
Just kidding, Wiv. As you said, I must have had the access since the guild split and forum rearrangement. I probably didn't see the forum earlier because it is quiet, and I usually use only the "new threads" button to check posts. So it only came to my attention when the "flame Tobold here" thread appeared. Well-intentioned, badly backfiring, but in the end the thread was a great help in me getting a decision. Would you want to be in a voluntary association with people that call you a tosser and wanker when they think you can't hear them?
Sorry tobold, I screwed up the permissions.
How disappointingly mundane. I had a short vision of Wivelrod as the Bismarck of WoW (Bismarck once started a Franco-Prussian war with leaking the "Ems telegram", after some editing, to the public). :)
Just kidding, Wiv. As you said, I must have had the access since the guild split and forum rearrangement. I probably didn't see the forum earlier because it is quiet, and I usually use only the "new threads" button to check posts. So it only came to my attention when the "flame Tobold here" thread appeared. Well-intentioned, badly backfiring, but in the end the thread was a great help in me getting a decision. Would you want to be in a voluntary association with people that call you a tosser and wanker when they think you can't hear them?
Unfortunately it happens all the time mate. Even a small guild of 20 people is never going to have everyone liking everyone. Though they may not say it to your face, they might bitch about you behind your back. Same happen in real life, in the work place, in families, amoungst groups of friends. I was hoping that I could direct their comments and me, and if they had anything to say legitimate about you, I could have raised it with you diplomatically as past GM to current GM and avoided any unpleasentness.
I got screwed by technology.
BTW, I found out this morning the entire registered user base of the forums had access. Something severely cocked up the permissions. I've no idea how that happened as theres no log. Maybe I messed them up when I set them up and its been like that for ages and no one had mentioned it!
I got screwed by technology.
BTW, I found out this morning the entire registered user base of the forums had access. Something severely cocked up the permissions. I've no idea how that happened as theres no log. Maybe I messed them up when I set them up and its been like that for ages and no one had mentioned it!
Kilgrim hit the nail on the head when he talked about the perils posed by forums and non-personal interaction. As a former Admin with Orc and Orc GM in SWG and the EQ2 Beta, I've seen countless flame wars started over misinterpretation of posts between people I thought got on famously!
I've also written countless posts in the Orc forums about the very same thing in a bid to calm things down. I've also been involved in a few, ahem, heated debates myself - especially when trying to uphold the ethics of the guild or argue a case from the perspective of a minority or less vocal element.
Alas it seems that certain parties may have been just waiting for you to trip up - and the results are above for all to see. :(
I'd still vouch for virtually every member of the former WoW officers being great team-spirited guys (with one foul-mouthed banned exploiter being the exception - you know who you are , Cravex/Arete, ;) and NO surprises to see you named) and I'd just write this off as one of those things. It's almost impossible for any large group of people to see eye-to-eye all the time, and alas sometimes the best things is just to bite the bullet and move on.
All the best to you, Tobold, and I hope you keep up the good work and find a home more suited to the many quality traits you bring to MMORPGs.
Youch
I've also written countless posts in the Orc forums about the very same thing in a bid to calm things down. I've also been involved in a few, ahem, heated debates myself - especially when trying to uphold the ethics of the guild or argue a case from the perspective of a minority or less vocal element.
Alas it seems that certain parties may have been just waiting for you to trip up - and the results are above for all to see. :(
I'd still vouch for virtually every member of the former WoW officers being great team-spirited guys (with one foul-mouthed banned exploiter being the exception - you know who you are , Cravex/Arete, ;) and NO surprises to see you named) and I'd just write this off as one of those things. It's almost impossible for any large group of people to see eye-to-eye all the time, and alas sometimes the best things is just to bite the bullet and move on.
All the best to you, Tobold, and I hope you keep up the good work and find a home more suited to the many quality traits you bring to MMORPGs.
Youch
# posted by : 14/5/06 21:21
: 14/5/06 21:21
Gotta say that ORC sounds like a seriously screwed up guild. I don't know why you would support a person (Wivelrod) who promotes backstabbing and secret societies. Saying that he got screwed by technology because you got to see the truth behind the operations of the guild is just lame. Two faced people like that will always be found out, and they deserve any consequences that occur.
How stupid is it for a guild that forces people to leave their own guild before applying to demonstrate commitment to the new guild, to allow officers to leave the guild for another and then continue to allow them to participate in guild leadership. The height of hypocrisy and seriously fucked up.
You are way better off out of that environment. My only advice to you is don't let the actions of morons affect you. In a months time they won't even be thinking about it, but if you quit and get bitter about it, it will stay with you for ages. Just move past these tossers and continue to do what you want. You said you were building up a network of people that played when you played, keep building the network.
If I were a member of ORC, I know that it isn't a guild to be associated with and would leave. Perhaps you can help the people that feel the same.
Finally, just keep in mind that these people are nothing. I always find it amusing when people take their role in a dinky little guild in a computer game so seriously.
How stupid is it for a guild that forces people to leave their own guild before applying to demonstrate commitment to the new guild, to allow officers to leave the guild for another and then continue to allow them to participate in guild leadership. The height of hypocrisy and seriously fucked up.
You are way better off out of that environment. My only advice to you is don't let the actions of morons affect you. In a months time they won't even be thinking about it, but if you quit and get bitter about it, it will stay with you for ages. Just move past these tossers and continue to do what you want. You said you were building up a network of people that played when you played, keep building the network.
If I were a member of ORC, I know that it isn't a guild to be associated with and would leave. Perhaps you can help the people that feel the same.
Finally, just keep in mind that these people are nothing. I always find it amusing when people take their role in a dinky little guild in a computer game so seriously.
# posted by : 15/5/06 00:41
: 15/5/06 00:41
"but in the defense of everyone it was thought to have been private :/ it wasn't intentional for anyone to get hurt."
Thats one hell of a poor defense. You supported the guild, the guild should have supported you and didn't. Every excuse they try to make now is just shameful.
Thats one hell of a poor defense. You supported the guild, the guild should have supported you and didn't. Every excuse they try to make now is just shameful.
# posted by : 15/5/06 04:39
: 15/5/06 04:39
In the defence of ORC I must say that the "secret society" part of it wasn't planned. It was something that evolved by accident, due to the fact that all members of the "officers club" left the WoW chapter, and the new officers weren't invited to that club before they were serving 2 months. So the new officers wrote up the guild charters and rules in the way they saw it, and being not or only faintly aware of the role of the ex-officers, their role wasn't prominently advertised.
They *are* listed on one "guild roster" page on the website. There are 17 "guild officers responsible for ensuring The Order of the Rose-Croix and its members do not stray from our declare (sic)ethics". And then there are 4 WoW officers listed. Unfortunately, since the split, on a typical evening there were less than 10 players with a Order of the Rose-Croix guild tag online, which makes a 21-person officers committee seem a bit outlandish.
I can understand that people who were in a guild / multi-game gaming community for years are not willing to leave it just because they are not playing a particular game using a particular guild tag. But if the number of such people accumulates with time and you end up with more alumni having an influence over a guild than active guild members, the structure collapses sooner or later.
They *are* listed on one "guild roster" page on the website. There are 17 "guild officers responsible for ensuring The Order of the Rose-Croix and its members do not stray from our declare (sic)ethics". And then there are 4 WoW officers listed. Unfortunately, since the split, on a typical evening there were less than 10 players with a Order of the Rose-Croix guild tag online, which makes a 21-person officers committee seem a bit outlandish.
I can understand that people who were in a guild / multi-game gaming community for years are not willing to leave it just because they are not playing a particular game using a particular guild tag. But if the number of such people accumulates with time and you end up with more alumni having an influence over a guild than active guild members, the structure collapses sooner or later.
There seem to be a few conclusions drawn up here without all the facts being known. Firstly the conflict Tobold has been havng has been going on for a few months with 2, I'll repeat that 2 ORC officers and not every other officer. Show me a guild that doesn't have any internal bickering, you'll find they are few and far between. Also for clarity just so you got the facts, I'll copy the events that lead upto this drama in the first place from our forums so you can make a more accurate judgement, though I suspect for some you it will make no difference ;). Tobold himself has approved these events.
1. ORC started up in WoW
2. ORC grew in WoW quickly.
3. People wanted to raid, with every pretty much every attempt at organising a raid leading to failure due to lack of interest (at the time)
4. A large percentage of the people that were into raiding were officers, and after lengthy attempts to get the interest up decided that were not getting what they wanted from WoW so they left and joined guilds were they already had previous ties with.
5. New officers arrived and were bloody successfull in raising the guild from the ashes.
6. Again they could be seen a split between the casual players and the raiders and a few winges broke out
7. On occasions Tobold would be overly critical of the past WoW officers efforts in running the guild.
8. This wound up said officers (understandably) who would snipe at Tobald at any opportunity (restraint, restraint).
9. The guild split into two halves with Tobold taking reins of ORC.
10. More sniping ensued to some of Tobolds posts in the officer forum by some of the still woundup/hurt ex WoW officers (restraint) which lead to Tobold not being happy about ex-officers having input into the running of WoW (I can understand this), and at which point he put in his resignation. I deleted his post hoping that we could sort it out and was suggested that ex-officers(WoW) would get read access to the forums and if discussion were still required they could happen in the Officers Club (bet you didn't know that existed).
11. The officers club is a place for all place for all officers of the guild no matter the game, past and present to discuss issues that effect the guild as a whole. Tobold at this time was not supposed to have access as he was a new officer, that would have opened up to him a month or two later.
12. Unfortunately some unpleasent things were said in there about Tobold (even from me which I regreat greatly) which he was not supposed to read, heres the bad bit, Tobold did have access by a mistake in admin setup and read all the comments.
13 The rest as they say is history.
This is my last comment on the subject, make your own minds up as can be seen no one is really inocent in this.
1. ORC started up in WoW
2. ORC grew in WoW quickly.
3. People wanted to raid, with every pretty much every attempt at organising a raid leading to failure due to lack of interest (at the time)
4. A large percentage of the people that were into raiding were officers, and after lengthy attempts to get the interest up decided that were not getting what they wanted from WoW so they left and joined guilds were they already had previous ties with.
5. New officers arrived and were bloody successfull in raising the guild from the ashes.
6. Again they could be seen a split between the casual players and the raiders and a few winges broke out
7. On occasions Tobold would be overly critical of the past WoW officers efforts in running the guild.
8. This wound up said officers (understandably) who would snipe at Tobald at any opportunity (restraint, restraint).
9. The guild split into two halves with Tobold taking reins of ORC.
10. More sniping ensued to some of Tobolds posts in the officer forum by some of the still woundup/hurt ex WoW officers (restraint) which lead to Tobold not being happy about ex-officers having input into the running of WoW (I can understand this), and at which point he put in his resignation. I deleted his post hoping that we could sort it out and was suggested that ex-officers(WoW) would get read access to the forums and if discussion were still required they could happen in the Officers Club (bet you didn't know that existed).
11. The officers club is a place for all place for all officers of the guild no matter the game, past and present to discuss issues that effect the guild as a whole. Tobold at this time was not supposed to have access as he was a new officer, that would have opened up to him a month or two later.
12. Unfortunately some unpleasent things were said in there about Tobold (even from me which I regreat greatly) which he was not supposed to read, heres the bad bit, Tobold did have access by a mistake in admin setup and read all the comments.
13 The rest as they say is history.
This is my last comment on the subject, make your own minds up as can be seen no one is really inocent in this.
# posted by : 15/5/06 09:48
: 15/5/06 09:48
As Demeju said, I agree with that summary when he posted it on our guild forums.
For clarification I'd like you to re-read point 4 and 5, and then think on how that could have resulted in point 7.
For clarification I'd like you to re-read point 4 and 5, and then think on how that could have resulted in point 7.
The fact the the previous officers used words like wanker and tosser speaks volumes about them imo, and have an idea of why you would arrive at number 7.
I found it sad that in my previous guild "guild progression" was only considered how far in MC/BWL/AQ we were. It was at this time a lot of the fun of the game was taken out for me, as we only recruited based on what we needed for raiding. I mean I helped kill Raggy/Onyxia/Nefarion but I was never really that into it, when I asked if one of my rl friends could join the guild I was met with a harsh "NO" even though he wasn't arsed about raiding either.
Just so you know, every single guild has problem with sign up numbers when they start raiding, bailing ship isn't the way to go about fixing it though.
I found it sad that in my previous guild "guild progression" was only considered how far in MC/BWL/AQ we were. It was at this time a lot of the fun of the game was taken out for me, as we only recruited based on what we needed for raiding. I mean I helped kill Raggy/Onyxia/Nefarion but I was never really that into it, when I asked if one of my rl friends could join the guild I was met with a harsh "NO" even though he wasn't arsed about raiding either.
Just so you know, every single guild has problem with sign up numbers when they start raiding, bailing ship isn't the way to go about fixing it though.
# posted by : 15/5/06 11:13
: 15/5/06 11:13
Just for reference, 'tosser' is quite literally synonymous with 'wanker'. *sniff* Makes me proud to be British!
Sounds rather confusing, all in all. Were you Guild Leader, or not? One would expect the leader to have the final say on policy matters, and if that wasn't what was intended, perhaps you shouldn't have been appointed in the first place? I doubt it's as clear cut as all that though...these things never are, which is why I generally avoid guilds altogether.
Speaking as an outsider, I've always found your WoW Guild-related blogging to be balanced, reasonable and impartial, and hardly the stuff of bitter ranting. You seem not to like the Raid-Culture of the end-game much, but that's Blizzard's fault, not the guild, and there's no harm in saying what most of the rest of us are thinking anyway.
I'm quite far out of WoW now, but while I was playing I did sometimes end up in pick-up groups for the lower instance with members of ORC, and they did seem decent and competent folks, with more personality than most. Still, hidden forum or not, if they're calling you that kind of thing, you're probably best off out of it all. Shows a distinct lack of respect, and maturity. I'm not sure that "You weren't supposed to see that forum" does much to make it better.
Incidentally, if you are looking for a complete change of scenery for a bit, I'd recommend EVE Online. Could always use another European timezone wingman :)
Regardless, best of luck finding something better.
VH
Sounds rather confusing, all in all. Were you Guild Leader, or not? One would expect the leader to have the final say on policy matters, and if that wasn't what was intended, perhaps you shouldn't have been appointed in the first place? I doubt it's as clear cut as all that though...these things never are, which is why I generally avoid guilds altogether.
Speaking as an outsider, I've always found your WoW Guild-related blogging to be balanced, reasonable and impartial, and hardly the stuff of bitter ranting. You seem not to like the Raid-Culture of the end-game much, but that's Blizzard's fault, not the guild, and there's no harm in saying what most of the rest of us are thinking anyway.
I'm quite far out of WoW now, but while I was playing I did sometimes end up in pick-up groups for the lower instance with members of ORC, and they did seem decent and competent folks, with more personality than most. Still, hidden forum or not, if they're calling you that kind of thing, you're probably best off out of it all. Shows a distinct lack of respect, and maturity. I'm not sure that "You weren't supposed to see that forum" does much to make it better.
Incidentally, if you are looking for a complete change of scenery for a bit, I'd recommend EVE Online. Could always use another European timezone wingman :)
Regardless, best of luck finding something better.
VH
# posted by : 15/5/06 12:11
: 15/5/06 12:11
Were you Guild Leader, or not?
Good question. From a WoW in-game perspective, technically speaking, I was Guild Leader. From a "ORC the gaming community" perspective I was a minor officer, not yet in the "officer's club", and with purely administrative function.
One would expect the leader to have the final say on policy matters
That was definitely not the case.
I'd recommend EVE Online
I don't like non-consentual PvP, and had some bad experiences when I tried EVE in the first month after release. Not really a good recommendation for a casual gamer.
Good question. From a WoW in-game perspective, technically speaking, I was Guild Leader. From a "ORC the gaming community" perspective I was a minor officer, not yet in the "officer's club", and with purely administrative function.
One would expect the leader to have the final say on policy matters
That was definitely not the case.
I'd recommend EVE Online
I don't like non-consentual PvP, and had some bad experiences when I tried EVE in the first month after release. Not really a good recommendation for a casual gamer.
It's never a good situation when founders of an organization leave the day-to-day management (hard work) only to weigh in with opinions now and then. Even worse when those opinions are forced onto current management!
Why in God's name would people who have moved to another guild have any sort of access to any assets of your guild? Why would they have any say in guild policies or activities? Is "Traitor" a rank in your guild's roster? Must be a British thing.
[i]L'Emmerdeur said...
Why in God's name would people who have moved to another guild have any sort of access to any assets of your guild?[/i]
Because ORC is not a guild, it's a gaming community with chapters in most MMORPGs.
Why in God's name would people who have moved to another guild have any sort of access to any assets of your guild?[/i]
Because ORC is not a guild, it's a gaming community with chapters in most MMORPGs.
# posted by : 15/5/06 18:53
: 15/5/06 18:53
ORC's been around since DAoC started, we've played in almost everything MMOG since, and we've never really been a "hardcore" guild. WoW Raiding was completely alien to most of us, and took us by surprise.
There is a fair number of ORCs (as we like to call ourselves) that dont play WoW and still post on our forum. There are a fair number of ORCs playing in EQ2, and until recently wasn't even playing under our "guild" name at all. They recently decided there was enough interest to start an ORC guild in EQ2 and are doing reasonably well as a casual non raiding guild. We have players playing in Auto Assault too.
Just because someone leaves the guild in game, doesn't mean they have to stop being a member of our community. As I've said to another in the past: "ORC is about friends playing together. But when you cannot offer those friends the type of in game experiance they wish, you have to let them go and do their own thing. Thats what friendship is all about sometimes." So yes, ORC might leave the guild in WoW to join another group thats doing more what they want in order to enjoy the game, but that does NOT make them traitors and have their forum privelages taken away. All of those in the "officer club" put a lot of time and effort into making the guild what it is, telling them they have no more say in what ORC does would be wrong.
Saying that, Tobold is wrong to suggest that those officers would interfere with the running of the guild. The only thing in despute I believe was wether an applicant should or should not be unguilded when they applied. And that despute wasnt anything to do with ORCs ethics, it was about what was expected by all guilds on the server, not just ORC.
I was happy for Tobold to do his own thing so long as our ethics remained untouched. The ethics go to the heart of what ORC is about.
Our guild concept is different to many. And in practice, up to now theres been no problem with our set up. The problem here is that Tobold upset a couple of people, and they basically couldnt put thier difference aside and alow him to get on with it. Tobold himself didn't exactly keep quiet, and people do NOT like thier names being bought up on a public blog, especially when the facts are given only from one sides point of view.
As usual, things are never black and white.
There is a fair number of ORCs (as we like to call ourselves) that dont play WoW and still post on our forum. There are a fair number of ORCs playing in EQ2, and until recently wasn't even playing under our "guild" name at all. They recently decided there was enough interest to start an ORC guild in EQ2 and are doing reasonably well as a casual non raiding guild. We have players playing in Auto Assault too.
Just because someone leaves the guild in game, doesn't mean they have to stop being a member of our community. As I've said to another in the past: "ORC is about friends playing together. But when you cannot offer those friends the type of in game experiance they wish, you have to let them go and do their own thing. Thats what friendship is all about sometimes." So yes, ORC might leave the guild in WoW to join another group thats doing more what they want in order to enjoy the game, but that does NOT make them traitors and have their forum privelages taken away. All of those in the "officer club" put a lot of time and effort into making the guild what it is, telling them they have no more say in what ORC does would be wrong.
Saying that, Tobold is wrong to suggest that those officers would interfere with the running of the guild. The only thing in despute I believe was wether an applicant should or should not be unguilded when they applied. And that despute wasnt anything to do with ORCs ethics, it was about what was expected by all guilds on the server, not just ORC.
I was happy for Tobold to do his own thing so long as our ethics remained untouched. The ethics go to the heart of what ORC is about.
Our guild concept is different to many. And in practice, up to now theres been no problem with our set up. The problem here is that Tobold upset a couple of people, and they basically couldnt put thier difference aside and alow him to get on with it. Tobold himself didn't exactly keep quiet, and people do NOT like thier names being bought up on a public blog, especially when the facts are given only from one sides point of view.
As usual, things are never black and white.
Sorry to hear of your guild troubles. I hate guild drama with a burning, seething passion born of past experiences. So ugly. I'll refrain from commenting on your current drama and break, suffice to say that I hope you keep playing WoW and find a new, more agreeable home!
# posted by : 15/5/06 19:02
: 15/5/06 19:02
Brian, generally there would be no interferance in the running of the guild in WoW so long as the ethics were being adhered too. In fact, until this incident, theres been next to no posts what so ever in the officers club forum, and those that were are more general community related posts, such as pushing people to use X-Fire so communication between members playing different games is maintained.
This issue isn't related to the running of WoW. Its related to 3 or 4 guild officers refusing to get along. I tried to stand between them and sort it out, but fecked up the forums somehow making the issue worse :|
This issue isn't related to the running of WoW. Its related to 3 or 4 guild officers refusing to get along. I tried to stand between them and sort it out, but fecked up the forums somehow making the issue worse :|
I agree with everyone that isn't being an absolute moron (wivelrod and demeju). You are either in the guild, for better or worse, or you are out. WTF is this "they are in the community" so they leave the guild in a game because they are too lazy to actually attempt to fix things themselves, but then you allow them to nitpick and bitch about the people that stick around and try to improve the guild? wivelrod, grow a pair and remove these people from the inner circle or remove yourself from your position.
And demeju, you sir, are a complete and utter wanker. "heres the bad bit, Tobold did have access by a mistake in admin setup and read all the comments." No you fucking tool, the bad bit is that you tossers bitched about someone behind their back. That is the bad bit. You cowards didn't even have the guts to say it to people's faces, you went behind their backs in your arrogant smug belief that you wouldn't be found out.
I don't see how anyone would want to be associated with this poor excuses for people.
And demeju, you sir, are a complete and utter wanker. "heres the bad bit, Tobold did have access by a mistake in admin setup and read all the comments." No you fucking tool, the bad bit is that you tossers bitched about someone behind their back. That is the bad bit. You cowards didn't even have the guts to say it to people's faces, you went behind their backs in your arrogant smug belief that you wouldn't be found out.
I don't see how anyone would want to be associated with this poor excuses for people.
# posted by : 16/5/06 00:12
: 16/5/06 00:12
I think you'll find Winter that they confronted him in public on this very blog some months ago.
You have a very one sided view here.
Besides, I left the guild last month because I could not dedicate the correct amount of time to run it. It was affecting my real life in a way that was detrimental to my career.
I however still pay for, and maintain the web site. And was trying to sort out this problem. I was hoping Tobold would be the right man for the job in running orc. Shame he wasnt able to rise above this and get on with it.
You have a very one sided view here.
Besides, I left the guild last month because I could not dedicate the correct amount of time to run it. It was affecting my real life in a way that was detrimental to my career.
I however still pay for, and maintain the web site. And was trying to sort out this problem. I was hoping Tobold would be the right man for the job in running orc. Shame he wasnt able to rise above this and get on with it.
Not to sidetrack this conversation too much, but...
Eve Online might not be the game for you, at all, but I would still recommend giving it another try. Things have changed quite a lot since the first few months *shrug*.
There is still non-consentual pvp but it is restricted to certain areas, where you dont have to go. It's up to you. And it is quite possible to login just for an hour, do a mission (for example) and log off. Some corps might require you to mine asteroids for 6 hours a day, but imo only a lunatic would join a corp like that. There's all kinds.
Like I said, you might still dislike the game, but I'd give it a second try...
Eve Online might not be the game for you, at all, but I would still recommend giving it another try. Things have changed quite a lot since the first few months *shrug*.
There is still non-consentual pvp but it is restricted to certain areas, where you dont have to go. It's up to you. And it is quite possible to login just for an hour, do a mission (for example) and log off. Some corps might require you to mine asteroids for 6 hours a day, but imo only a lunatic would join a corp like that. There's all kinds.
Like I said, you might still dislike the game, but I'd give it a second try...
# posted by : 16/5/06 09:29
: 16/5/06 09:29
First, what a nightmare structure. People who left a guild remaining officers and sniping at the way that those who are still making a go of it run things?!? You want to have an input, stump up the cash and the time and show the commitment you talk about, bubba!
As to demeju:
"3. People wanted to raid, with every pretty much every attempt at organising a raid leading to failure due to lack of interest (at the time)"
In other words, most people *didn't* want to raid.
demeju said:
"4. A large percentage of the people that were into raiding were officers, and after lengthy attempts to get the interest up decided that were not getting what they wanted from WoW so they left and joined guilds were they already had previous ties with."
In other words, the guild was just a tool for them to get their playstyle. Since it no longer served their purpose, they left. Loyalty is something they talk about.
demeju also said:
"7. On occasions Tobold would be overly critical of the past WoW officers efforts in running the guild."
In running the guild after they had shown that they couldn't be bothered putting in the investment any more. They just wanted the right to keep sniping and vetoing from the sidelines.
Well, I'm glad my guild is RP, with no drama in months, plenty of help and nobody screeching that if they don't get to MC tonight they are leaving but they intend to still maintain a veto.
And not letting your guild leader in a game into the Officers' Vlub for the guild?!? Hilarious. Pitiful, but hilarious.
As to demeju:
"3. People wanted to raid, with every pretty much every attempt at organising a raid leading to failure due to lack of interest (at the time)"
In other words, most people *didn't* want to raid.
demeju said:
"4. A large percentage of the people that were into raiding were officers, and after lengthy attempts to get the interest up decided that were not getting what they wanted from WoW so they left and joined guilds were they already had previous ties with."
In other words, the guild was just a tool for them to get their playstyle. Since it no longer served their purpose, they left. Loyalty is something they talk about.
demeju also said:
"7. On occasions Tobold would be overly critical of the past WoW officers efforts in running the guild."
In running the guild after they had shown that they couldn't be bothered putting in the investment any more. They just wanted the right to keep sniping and vetoing from the sidelines.
Well, I'm glad my guild is RP, with no drama in months, plenty of help and nobody screeching that if they don't get to MC tonight they are leaving but they intend to still maintain a veto.
And not letting your guild leader in a game into the Officers' Vlub for the guild?!? Hilarious. Pitiful, but hilarious.
# posted by : 16/5/06 10:24
: 16/5/06 10:24
Please, no name-calling and insults. Lets keep the standards of the discussion up.
The structure of my old guild has evolved into something rather exotic with time, hard to understand, and sometimes even hilarious to the outsider. I think many of you understand why I couldn't continue inside this system, which is far off from something that you would expect from a normal guild. Endie summed up my view pretty well. Once the disappointment has calmed down, I'll just find it funny.
But please also understand that there are still people in this system, and having lived with it for a long time, and having seen how it got to the point where it is now, it seems more normal to them. Calling them names for defending their guild is not justified.
The structure of my old guild has evolved into something rather exotic with time, hard to understand, and sometimes even hilarious to the outsider. I think many of you understand why I couldn't continue inside this system, which is far off from something that you would expect from a normal guild. Endie summed up my view pretty well. Once the disappointment has calmed down, I'll just find it funny.
But please also understand that there are still people in this system, and having lived with it for a long time, and having seen how it got to the point where it is now, it seems more normal to them. Calling them names for defending their guild is not justified.
I bet you guys wouldn't be too thrilled if Margaret Thatcher showed up on your doorstep and told you she's collecting a tithe to buy a new dress, because she's the effing Prime Minister, when she's no longer the God-damned Prime Minister.
You are either in, or you are out. By allowing former officers to have any participation in this guild, you usurped Tobold's authority and hijacked his ability to manage the guild. And then you have the balls to blame him for falling flat on his face, when it was your ankle sticking out into the hallway that tripped him over.
If you really think it is wise to allow people who have left the guild and are doing ZERO work organizing, maintaining and supporting the guild to have any kind of participation (let alone authority) in said guild, then I question your management skills and your motives.
You are either in, or you are out. By allowing former officers to have any participation in this guild, you usurped Tobold's authority and hijacked his ability to manage the guild. And then you have the balls to blame him for falling flat on his face, when it was your ankle sticking out into the hallway that tripped him over.
If you really think it is wise to allow people who have left the guild and are doing ZERO work organizing, maintaining and supporting the guild to have any kind of participation (let alone authority) in said guild, then I question your management skills and your motives.
Glad to see that everyone other than the guilty parties can see just how stuffed up ORC is. Most obviously you are better off out of it rather than in it Tobold.
# posted by : 16/5/06 23:52
: 16/5/06 23:52
Anyone that leaves a guild of friends for a raiding guild has no loyalty in my book and I wouldn't be caught dead in a guild that lets such players remain as officers.
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