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A blog mostly about MMORPG ( Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games ) and other games I'm currently playing. Please read my Terms of Service
Wednesday, May 03, 2006
Why do we play?
Here is an interesting thought, stemming from some discussion in the commentaries of another post. Do we spend time in a MMORPG to gain a reward, or do we spend money and time on a MMORPG to be entertained? What is the value of time and money?
You often hear that time is the real currency of MMORPGs. You spend time, and you receive rewards for that time spent, be it levels, virtual gold, or the fabled sword of uberness. The time we spend is a cost, an effort, work, and for this time and effort and work we are rewarded with status symbols and in-game achievements. The money you spend on the MMORPG isn't important, because it is a constant, not related to your progress in the game.
But the opposite point of view is also possible. You come home from work, it is too early to go to bed, you have time in excess, and you want to be entertained, killing that spare time. Playing a MMORPG is one of many possible entertainment options. But all entertainment options cost money: To read you would need to buy a book or magazine. To play a MMORPG you need to buy a PC, the game, and pay for a monthly fee. To watch TV you need to buy the TV and pay a monthly fee to the cable company. To play golf you need to buy a set of clubs and pay a club membership. All these entertainment options have a different degree of entertainment value to different people, some enjoy more interactive activities, some more passive, some people like to be entertained outdoors, others prefer the comfort of their home. But in the end you pay for the entertainment value, which allows you to kill your spare time. There are some free options, starting from watching your paint dry, but often the options with more entertainment value are also costing more money.
Both points of view are viable, and sometimes they lead to interesting interactions. A gold farmer is certainly under the impression that he is spending his time working in World of Warcraft, gaining rewards in the form of gold, which he then sells for real world dollars. The gold buyer has the opposite problem, he isn't happy with the entertainment value of WoW at the moment, and he is willing to spend real dollars for virtual gold to increase the entertainment value. Maybe he doesn't find walking very entertaining, so he buys gold to buy a mount. Maybe he thinks he needs to buy the sword of uberness from the auction house, which would then enable him to beat the monster that he previously couldn't get past. Maybe he just wants to look as pretty as the other people running around in the game. Whatever it is, he certainly does not want to *lower* the entertainment value of the game by stupidly grinding gold for hours. He'd rather spend more money for the privilege to have more entertainment value in his spare time.
In other cases the different points of view totally clash, making it impossible to even discuss between the two sides. A typical example is the heated discussion about the upcoming high-level raid dungeon Naxxramas in World of Warcraft patch 1.11, which is raging since it was announced. If you think you spend time in WoW to gain virtual rewards, Naxxramas is a great place: It will be the absolute top end of the game for some time, the very best rewards given out to the people who spent the most time and dedication in raiding. A place full of wondrous treasures, made just the more valuable by the fact that so few people can attain them. But if you think you spend money on WoW to be entertained to kill your spare time, Naxxramas is a waste of developers time: For 99.9% of the players, the money they gave to Blizzard for being entertained has been spent on creating a big block of content which they are unable to reach. The entertainment value of Naxxramas for the average player is close to zero, because he doesn't have the power to play in there and can only observe the effects of the Scourge invasion outside. Raiding in general has a low entertainment value, because it is by nature repetitive. And Naxxramas is even worse, because you would first need to repetitively go to Molten Core, then repetitively go to Blackwing Lair, before you finally could go and repetitively see Naxxramas.
The discussion between the two sides on this issue is totally fruitless, because each side just thinks that the other side sees the game in the same light as they do. The "spend money for entertainment" crowd thinks that the "spend time on game rewards" crowd is just wanting to monopolize the entertainment value of World of Warcraft. And in the other way round, the "spend time on game rewards" crowd thinks the "spend money on entertainment" crowd only wants to get rewards without having spent effort on them.
For me personally, World of Warcraft is just entertainment. I spend money on it, it kills my spare time, and I get some entertainment value out of it. I don't see the point in having to do Molten Core a hundred times before being able to visit Blackwing Lair or Naxxramas. Just as I wouldn't see the point of having to read one page of a book several times before being able to advance to the next page, or having to watch one episode of a TV series several times before being allowed to watch the next one. Even in competitive sports like golf, while there are easier and harder golf courses, I could play on a hard golf course and at least see "the content" of it, even if I would score horribly. For me all content in World of Warcraft is on the same level, I feel that for the money I pay I should be able to see it all. There is content with more entertainment value, and there is content with less entertainment value, but for me it isn't necessarily the highest reward that has the most entertainment value. The important thing for me is to be able to interact with the content in a meaningful way. I'm totally happy with my Onyxia raid last weekend, because I got to experience all three phases of the combat several times, and I feel I now "have done" Onyxia. I don't give a damn that I didn't kill her, that I didn't get some epic item from her, and I'm not really interested in going there repeatedly to try it again and again until I do. I am also happy with places like Zul'Gurub, where I can *fight* any boss, even if I maybe am not able to win against them. But I am unhappy with quest chains in which I get stuck, or with linear dungeons like Molten Core, Ahn'Qiraj, or Blackwing Lair, where I can see only a part of the place. It is not about getting the rewards from the raid dungeons, it is about accessing the content, and being blocked from certain content makes me grumpy. I am standing in front of some closed doors in this game, and I'm not willing to batter my shoulder repeatedly against the door until I bash it in, because I think that I have already paid the entrance fee (in money). The day I think that I have seen all the accessible content in WoW, and only the repetitive way to Naxxramas and beyond remains, I just quit the game and buy myself some other form of entertainment.
Of course if your personal opinion is that money doesn't count and the only entrance fee in WoW is time, of which you need to spend X hours to open certain doors, you will never even understand what I am talking about.
- posted by Tobold @ 1:24 PM Permanent Link
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I understand your point of view mate :)
Like I've said before, we all want different things from our gaming. The difference between your idea of WoW as a form of entertainment and mine can be summed up by your view on the Ony raid. You seem to be happy just going there and seeing the event, but once you've seen it you have no desire to return and beat her, or improve on the time it takes to beat her. I however would want to go there, and keep returning and trying until she dies. I want to get all the bosses down, and am willing to spend enitre evenings throwing myself at a boss time and time again until he/she finally falls.
We play the same game, but both have different ideas as to what makes it fun for us. We both like a good 5 man run though :)
Like I've said before, we all want different things from our gaming. The difference between your idea of WoW as a form of entertainment and mine can be summed up by your view on the Ony raid. You seem to be happy just going there and seeing the event, but once you've seen it you have no desire to return and beat her, or improve on the time it takes to beat her. I however would want to go there, and keep returning and trying until she dies. I want to get all the bosses down, and am willing to spend enitre evenings throwing myself at a boss time and time again until he/she finally falls.
We play the same game, but both have different ideas as to what makes it fun for us. We both like a good 5 man run though :)
Yeah, I'm closer to wivelrod on this one. I have real life friends who have absolutely no earthly desire to raid like I do. I have other real life friends who are in the process of trying to get aligned with a good raid guild because they do want to raid like I do. I do smaller instances with all of them when I have the opportunity.
For me, it's all a feeling of accomplishment. Bashing your head on an encounter isn't fun for a lot of people. Heck, 75% of the time it's not fun for me (the other 25% being the tries where you made tangible progress). Beating an encounter after 20 tries? Best feeling in the game for me. Figuring out the puzzle, and everybody working in harmony enough to defeat the puzzle, that's just what I play for. I'll admit I have less fun once an encounter is on "farm" status than I do when we're figuring things out. At that point it becomes hanging out with guildies and gearing up (to turn the page, as you put it). Even then the encounters I enjoy the most are the ones that you know for a fact a string of bad luck can destroy the entire raid (Vaelestraz, Nefarian).
I don't begrudge people who play smaller. Heck, I totally agree that Naxx (while it sounds cool) is completely unnecessary at this point in time. I would have much rather they plugged in a 5 man and a 15 man instance in 1.11 than Naxx. I'd much rather see an end to the Missing Politician quest line in Stormwind (to this day my greatest WoW disappointment was hitting the brick wall that was the end of that quest line, which I was really enjoying). I'd much rather see them implement epic quests for all classes that don't involve raid drops (I honestly don't get why Priests/Hunters have a drop from Domo for theirs, and Hunters also have a drop from Ony). I think Blizzard is a victim of their own development cycle right now, but I don't see how that would be comforting to the average player.
For me, it's all a feeling of accomplishment. Bashing your head on an encounter isn't fun for a lot of people. Heck, 75% of the time it's not fun for me (the other 25% being the tries where you made tangible progress). Beating an encounter after 20 tries? Best feeling in the game for me. Figuring out the puzzle, and everybody working in harmony enough to defeat the puzzle, that's just what I play for. I'll admit I have less fun once an encounter is on "farm" status than I do when we're figuring things out. At that point it becomes hanging out with guildies and gearing up (to turn the page, as you put it). Even then the encounters I enjoy the most are the ones that you know for a fact a string of bad luck can destroy the entire raid (Vaelestraz, Nefarian).
I don't begrudge people who play smaller. Heck, I totally agree that Naxx (while it sounds cool) is completely unnecessary at this point in time. I would have much rather they plugged in a 5 man and a 15 man instance in 1.11 than Naxx. I'd much rather see an end to the Missing Politician quest line in Stormwind (to this day my greatest WoW disappointment was hitting the brick wall that was the end of that quest line, which I was really enjoying). I'd much rather see them implement epic quests for all classes that don't involve raid drops (I honestly don't get why Priests/Hunters have a drop from Domo for theirs, and Hunters also have a drop from Ony). I think Blizzard is a victim of their own development cycle right now, but I don't see how that would be comforting to the average player.
In all fairness I have to say that of course I do repeat visits to dungeons. Just for the simple reason that the number of places you can visit at 60 is limited, and once you are through, you have to start all over again.
But I do enjoy a weekend like the last one, one MC run, one Ony run, one Scholo run, one Strat run, a lot more than a weekend doing lets say Onyxia on 4 days, 5 times each, beating her on the 20th visit. I fully realize that if I visit MC only once or twice a month, my progress there will be severely limited, unless I get dragged along by people going a lot more often.
But I do enjoy a weekend like the last one, one MC run, one Ony run, one Scholo run, one Strat run, a lot more than a weekend doing lets say Onyxia on 4 days, 5 times each, beating her on the 20th visit. I fully realize that if I visit MC only once or twice a month, my progress there will be severely limited, unless I get dragged along by people going a lot more often.
I think it is fun to have very challenging end game content. End game content to the exclusion of "casuals" is essential for that feeling of being in a world larger than yourself. Of course there are bosses I haven't seen, and Places I've never been to, but what bothers me is not that others can do it and I can't. What is not fun in WOW is the required conformity needed to get to the content. So many things about end game content pigeon-hole you into only really few specific choices you can make.
Your role in the raid becomes very specific (Hybrid classes LOOK OUT)
Your talent spec also required being very specific (Warriors put away that 2-hander, shadow priests better /gquit)
Your gear (gear grind, wearing blues and want into a good guild = LOL)
Raid attendance and Punctuality
Get CTRaid Assist/ Voice over IP programs
What you have to do & when you have to do it
Relying on 39 other people to be on the same page.
Having to compete over items with your fellow guild mates (birth of DRAMA)
There will always be a better {insert your class here} than you. There will always be guild members who can play more than you, and thus will get more/better epics than you. There will always be guild drama.
Once you get to 60, your choices for advancement become much fewer, and a lot more competitive and the rules become way stricter. None of that sounds like fun, but we grin and bear it for the joy found in successfully getting your sword of Uberness, or killing the big bad dragon.
So play WOW but don’t put more hope into a game than it can bear. WOW can be stressful at times, but it’s most likely due to unmet expectations, which should never have been there in the first place.
Your role in the raid becomes very specific (Hybrid classes LOOK OUT)
Your talent spec also required being very specific (Warriors put away that 2-hander, shadow priests better /gquit)
Your gear (gear grind, wearing blues and want into a good guild = LOL)
Raid attendance and Punctuality
Get CTRaid Assist/ Voice over IP programs
What you have to do & when you have to do it
Relying on 39 other people to be on the same page.
Having to compete over items with your fellow guild mates (birth of DRAMA)
There will always be a better {insert your class here} than you. There will always be guild members who can play more than you, and thus will get more/better epics than you. There will always be guild drama.
Once you get to 60, your choices for advancement become much fewer, and a lot more competitive and the rules become way stricter. None of that sounds like fun, but we grin and bear it for the joy found in successfully getting your sword of Uberness, or killing the big bad dragon.
So play WOW but don’t put more hope into a game than it can bear. WOW can be stressful at times, but it’s most likely due to unmet expectations, which should never have been there in the first place.
# posted by 
: 3/5/06 20:32
: 3/5/06 20:32
I think depends on where you are in your life as well. For the past few years, with a rather boring out-of-work life, I was fairly hardcore raider. I raided almost every night, and put a lot of game time in, trying to be the best. I remember being thrilled when I was #1 for my class on Magelo.
Now I'm at the point where gaming is a distant second or third in my life, and while I thought I could see the casual gamer side, I really didn't until now. The good part, I suppose, is that WoW is still young and the gap between the raid geared and non raid geared is relatively small. Percentage points of difference. There was this article I read on a blog called something like Two Guys Review one Game I cannot find right now, but it had some (limited) stats that looked like they'd make an interesting study. It showed the small diferences in today's game. As more uber-only expansions come out, however, the gear will have no choice but to undergo mudflation, leading down the same path EQ took.
My casual friends back in EQ are perfectly happy raiding Velious and Luclin targets, despite them being well aged. Their new expansion gear allows them to do better than even raid level stuff would have then. However, I remember clearly that my raid-geared necromancer had more HP and AC than every warrior, and could solo what they had to use a few people on. The gap was wide, and only getting wider.
This then, to me, leads to trouble with the whole balancing thing when you have to dynamically divergent gear sets you have to set an encounter for.
Now I'm at the point where gaming is a distant second or third in my life, and while I thought I could see the casual gamer side, I really didn't until now. The good part, I suppose, is that WoW is still young and the gap between the raid geared and non raid geared is relatively small. Percentage points of difference. There was this article I read on a blog called something like Two Guys Review one Game I cannot find right now, but it had some (limited) stats that looked like they'd make an interesting study. It showed the small diferences in today's game. As more uber-only expansions come out, however, the gear will have no choice but to undergo mudflation, leading down the same path EQ took.
My casual friends back in EQ are perfectly happy raiding Velious and Luclin targets, despite them being well aged. Their new expansion gear allows them to do better than even raid level stuff would have then. However, I remember clearly that my raid-geared necromancer had more HP and AC than every warrior, and could solo what they had to use a few people on. The gap was wide, and only getting wider.
This then, to me, leads to trouble with the whole balancing thing when you have to dynamically divergent gear sets you have to set an encounter for.
Your role in the raid becomes very specific (Hybrid classes LOOK OUT)
Your talent spec also required being very specific (Warriors put away that 2-hander, shadow priests better /gquit)
Your gear (gear grind, wearing blues and want into a good guild = LOL)
Raid attendance and Punctuality
Get CTRaid Assist/ Voice over IP programs
What you have to do & when you have to do it
Relying on 39 other people to be on the same page.
Having to compete over items with your fellow guild mates (birth of DRAMA)
Our druid class leader is feral. Our priest class leader is shadow. Only our top 2 tanks are mostly prot builds, the remainder are mostly fury. We quite literally will let just about anybody into the guild, and getting to raids involves little more than interest in raiding (Molten Core we normally have 37-38 people anyhow). There is no attendance requirement. Teamspeak is helpful but not required.
All of these declarations of the evils of raid guilds have little basis in fact. Will you go straight to AQ40 with us right out of Strath? Probably not. There is something to be said for gear and for raid experience. If you're truly wanting to experience the more "cutting edge" end game, it is available. For the rest of our raiders, they may have to wait a few months until it's truly on such farm status that we can support 10 or so newer characters in there.
The loot drama you talk about all but disappears when everybody is mostly epic'd out anyhow. The true loot drama happens over the Molten Core drops that are somebody's first or second epic, that they build up to be so important. I haven't purchased an item I use daily using my DKP in 2.5 months. An occasional resist piece, an AQ quest piece (which I can't turn in as we haven't passed the Twin Emps), gifts for fellow raiders.
Loot? Meh. It's there. There are items I'd still like to get, and will likely buy if/when they drop. Not gonna impact my gameplay dramatically either way.
Your talent spec also required being very specific (Warriors put away that 2-hander, shadow priests better /gquit)
Your gear (gear grind, wearing blues and want into a good guild = LOL)
Raid attendance and Punctuality
Get CTRaid Assist/ Voice over IP programs
What you have to do & when you have to do it
Relying on 39 other people to be on the same page.
Having to compete over items with your fellow guild mates (birth of DRAMA)
Our druid class leader is feral. Our priest class leader is shadow. Only our top 2 tanks are mostly prot builds, the remainder are mostly fury. We quite literally will let just about anybody into the guild, and getting to raids involves little more than interest in raiding (Molten Core we normally have 37-38 people anyhow). There is no attendance requirement. Teamspeak is helpful but not required.
All of these declarations of the evils of raid guilds have little basis in fact. Will you go straight to AQ40 with us right out of Strath? Probably not. There is something to be said for gear and for raid experience. If you're truly wanting to experience the more "cutting edge" end game, it is available. For the rest of our raiders, they may have to wait a few months until it's truly on such farm status that we can support 10 or so newer characters in there.
The loot drama you talk about all but disappears when everybody is mostly epic'd out anyhow. The true loot drama happens over the Molten Core drops that are somebody's first or second epic, that they build up to be so important. I haven't purchased an item I use daily using my DKP in 2.5 months. An occasional resist piece, an AQ quest piece (which I can't turn in as we haven't passed the Twin Emps), gifts for fellow raiders.
Loot? Meh. It's there. There are items I'd still like to get, and will likely buy if/when they drop. Not gonna impact my gameplay dramatically either way.
looks like Brian and me share the same goals in WoW. I fully support his views.
But then, dougnyc has a point as well. There are a lot of players, who want to simply be in the best guild, wear the best equipment and beat all others in pvp. But that only shows the variety of players in this game and it shows its weaknesses also.
The game has to cater to the expectations of ALL varieties of players. And since that is simply not possible, ALL players have to cut some of their expectations of this game.
@Brian: Yeah, that missing Diplomat quest really needs a follow up. I enjoyed it soo much and was really dissapointed when it ended in something like an anti-climax. A friendly 60 just came along and helped me kill that last Soldier - 10 secs and it was over.
A nice example of what gives me the kick?
Last week I was in WSG with my 27 undead warrior. We pretty much owned the alliance in 3 consecutive fast games (no more than 15 mins each), but still they came back each time - thanx guys. Yeah I liked the easy faction gain. But it left a very sour taste after each victory, since it was gained so easily.
Then - somehow - they got their wits together and caught us by surprise. We came back from a 0-2, after all those know-it-alls that only played for easy victories had left. We fought for over 2 hour with the battle raging from one end to the other, with noone actually having a clear advantage over the others. It was tight, it was thrilling, it was entertaining, it was one of the best WoW experience I had since Beta.
The reward? 2 hours of pure entertainment. Simply great.
I prefer this kind of entertainment above all farming runs to ZG, Strat, Scholo, DM or the Blackrock.
But then, dougnyc has a point as well. There are a lot of players, who want to simply be in the best guild, wear the best equipment and beat all others in pvp. But that only shows the variety of players in this game and it shows its weaknesses also.
The game has to cater to the expectations of ALL varieties of players. And since that is simply not possible, ALL players have to cut some of their expectations of this game.
@Brian: Yeah, that missing Diplomat quest really needs a follow up. I enjoyed it soo much and was really dissapointed when it ended in something like an anti-climax. A friendly 60 just came along and helped me kill that last Soldier - 10 secs and it was over.
A nice example of what gives me the kick?
Last week I was in WSG with my 27 undead warrior. We pretty much owned the alliance in 3 consecutive fast games (no more than 15 mins each), but still they came back each time - thanx guys. Yeah I liked the easy faction gain. But it left a very sour taste after each victory, since it was gained so easily.
Then - somehow - they got their wits together and caught us by surprise. We came back from a 0-2, after all those know-it-alls that only played for easy victories had left. We fought for over 2 hour with the battle raging from one end to the other, with noone actually having a clear advantage over the others. It was tight, it was thrilling, it was entertaining, it was one of the best WoW experience I had since Beta.
The reward? 2 hours of pure entertainment. Simply great.
I prefer this kind of entertainment above all farming runs to ZG, Strat, Scholo, DM or the Blackrock.
I think what the comments upon this blog have mostly shown is that WoW both tries to and succeeds in encompassing a variety of play styles.
I`m an RPer myself. My guild (and previous guilds) enjoy end-game content, run around doing all the various RP stuff we do, and generally enjoy ourselves. I dabble in PvP on and off, since I myself am very motivated by equipment gains for my characters, and I burn out fast on PvP 'farming' for honor points.
My guild, also, farms end-game content for rep and drops, and we all chat away on Vent happily enjoying ourselves. It has to be said, also, that my current guild has a history of using unorthodox (read that as - kinda stupid) methods of approaching problems and succeeding, remarkably ^_^.
I feel that some of the problems mentioned by people here have bee corrected since the time this blog was made - for one thing, very few classes are as raid-pigeonholed as they once may have been, for certain. However, I do understand the feeling of end-game content being restricted, of the frustration of thinking - hold on, why can`t I go see this stuff? I`ve seen everything else (the solo / small group content).
I do feel these things need to be restricted - else, why the hell would anyone raid at all? But, I do think that developers could profitably spend some more time in adding in more and more solo and non-attunement-required content across -all- levels of the game.
And, to conclude, I do think this is happening. Thankfully :)
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I`m an RPer myself. My guild (and previous guilds) enjoy end-game content, run around doing all the various RP stuff we do, and generally enjoy ourselves. I dabble in PvP on and off, since I myself am very motivated by equipment gains for my characters, and I burn out fast on PvP 'farming' for honor points.
My guild, also, farms end-game content for rep and drops, and we all chat away on Vent happily enjoying ourselves. It has to be said, also, that my current guild has a history of using unorthodox (read that as - kinda stupid) methods of approaching problems and succeeding, remarkably ^_^.
I feel that some of the problems mentioned by people here have bee corrected since the time this blog was made - for one thing, very few classes are as raid-pigeonholed as they once may have been, for certain. However, I do understand the feeling of end-game content being restricted, of the frustration of thinking - hold on, why can`t I go see this stuff? I`ve seen everything else (the solo / small group content).
I do feel these things need to be restricted - else, why the hell would anyone raid at all? But, I do think that developers could profitably spend some more time in adding in more and more solo and non-attunement-required content across -all- levels of the game.
And, to conclude, I do think this is happening. Thankfully :)
# posted by : 2/5/08 16:56
: 2/5/08 16:56Links to this post:
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