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Tuesday, June 27, 2006
Individual vs. Guild
Alan was writing me about an interesting subject, the tension that sometimes arises between the general good of a guild, and the wishes of the individual guild member. That happens most often when raiding, when it turns out that the perfect raid group and the reality of people actually showing up are two very different things.
The perfect raid guild has exactly 40 members, with a perfect mix of classes, and all of these members turn up punctually for every raid and never have to leave early. Hands up who knows such a guild. Nobody? Thought so!
The first problem for a raid is getting 40 people together at all. Now if your guild only has 40 members, you can be sure that less than 40 will turn up. Not everybody can raid every night. So what most guilds do is having more guild members eligible for raiding than raiding slots, in the hope that 40 of them will turn up for the raid. If just 38 or so turn up, that is still okay, but if you fall below 30 you might have problems with encounters that would be easy for 40. The problem starts when more than 40 people turn up for the raid, because then somebody has to decide who goes and who can't go.
Most guilds have some sort of sign-up system, either on their website, or using addons like the Guild Event Manager GEM. So if in doubt, the first 40 people to sign up get a spot in the raid. Unfortunately that isn't ideal either. Why should somebody who just happened to be around when the raid entry was put on the calendar have priority over somebody who happened to not log on that day? Besides sign-up systems lead to perverse incentives, people signing up "just in case", and then not showing up for the raid, while somebody who would have had time didn't sign up, because the raid was shown as full. The next problem is what to do if among the first 40 people that signed up there are 10 hunters and not a single priest. If more than 40 people show up on time for the raid, it might be better for the guild as a whole to take some priest from the waiting list in preference over some hunter who signed up early.
Probably a better system is a blind sign-up system, where nobody gets a guaranteed spot. When the raid begins, the raid leader has to make some tough choices based on optimum class mix, competence of the players, who signed up when, and who didn't get a spot in the last raid. Very difficult to handle, but unless somebody comes up with a brilliant raid-spot-distribution point system, there is no easy way. Actually I find raid-slot distribution more difficult than loot distribution.
A related problem pits the player's right to play what he wants against the guild's need of certain classes. I have both a level 60 warrior and a level 60 priest, but as the guild usually has a lot more warriors than priests in any raid, it would create some tension if I would chose to bring my warrior. And imagine if a guild's main tank declares that now that he is full epic, he doesn't have any interest in coming to raids with his warrior any more, but wants to come with his rogue alt.
World of Warcraft raiding guilds are often more a confederation by necessity, than a band of brothers. Churn rates are high, and few people are willing to put their individual goals behind the greater good of the guild. That is only logical if they don't know if they will be with the same guild in half a year. On the one side a guild needs to be fair to everybody, because otherwise people simply leave. On the other side a raid leader needs to be able to take decisions like who to invite with a view to maximizing the raid's chance of success, and not only on perceived "fairness". The more people learn to trust each other, and to look out for the good of the guild, the easier it becomes. A guild full of egoists is bound for failure.
- posted by Tobold @ 1:30 PM Permanent Link
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Tobold,
My guild uses an attendance point system which has its flaws (all systems do) but, attendance points are spent in loot distribution. And raid invites are based on who has the most points by class.
After the raid is filled then everytime a boss dies we are awarded some amount of AP, and even the people that aren't in the raid, if they are online and "avaialble to come to the raid" get the AP as well.
So if you like raiding, just gather copius amounts of AP, dont "buy" any items, and you'll easily end up becoming point leader for your class, and as long as you're online when raid invites start you will always get into the raid.
The only times invites are done differently is if its a resistance heavy fight, therefore we set up a priority list of players with enough resistance. and now a recent rule to include at least 2 protection spec warriors in the raid before any Fury or Mortal Strike warriors are invited.
fin
My guild uses an attendance point system which has its flaws (all systems do) but, attendance points are spent in loot distribution. And raid invites are based on who has the most points by class.
After the raid is filled then everytime a boss dies we are awarded some amount of AP, and even the people that aren't in the raid, if they are online and "avaialble to come to the raid" get the AP as well.
So if you like raiding, just gather copius amounts of AP, dont "buy" any items, and you'll easily end up becoming point leader for your class, and as long as you're online when raid invites start you will always get into the raid.
The only times invites are done differently is if its a resistance heavy fight, therefore we set up a priority list of players with enough resistance. and now a recent rule to include at least 2 protection spec warriors in the raid before any Fury or Mortal Strike warriors are invited.
fin
# posted by 
: 27/6/06 15:01
: 27/6/06 15:01
Our guild uses a system similar to dougnyc's guild. Roughly a week in advance of the raid, people can sign up to attend. We usually have more than 40 signups, so on the night of the raid, the officers/class leaders will decide who gets into the raid. Anyone who doesn't get in can put themselves on a waiting list to be put in later, when somebody has to leave. People on the waiting list earn DKP as well, even if they never end up getting into the raid, provided they signed up ahead of time.
Deciding who gets into the raid initially is left mainly to the discretion of the individual class leaders. All raiders in our guild declare themselves as either primary or secondary raiders, and primary raiders generally get priority. We have stricter attendance requirements for primary raiders, however. Secondary raiders will usually get in regularly as well, but they don't have a guaranteed spot every night. Our guild is made up of some good people who have been playing together for years, so this system has worked well for us.
Deciding who gets into the raid initially is left mainly to the discretion of the individual class leaders. All raiders in our guild declare themselves as either primary or secondary raiders, and primary raiders generally get priority. We have stricter attendance requirements for primary raiders, however. Secondary raiders will usually get in regularly as well, but they don't have a guaranteed spot every night. Our guild is made up of some good people who have been playing together for years, so this system has worked well for us.
# posted by : 27/6/06 16:28
: 27/6/06 16:28
Whoah. Starting to sound hardcore.
My guild is pretty relaxed. At the end of every weekend the next week's schedule is posted and the raid signups are posted on the raid planner. People sign up for raids. The day of or the night before, the raid is slotted by one of our leaders. He has various considerations he takes into account in slotting the raid (e.g. how many of which classes are needed, recent attendance, attitude, etc.) which he's posted in a post on our forums. Some classes have a bit more competition to get slotted, others don't.
If you're not slotted, or you indicate "standby" on the planner, technically you're on the waitlist and may be able to join the raid if there's room and/or your class is needed (if there's room for your class).
We have no attendance requirement - at all.
Very loose system but it works well for us.
My guild is pretty relaxed. At the end of every weekend the next week's schedule is posted and the raid signups are posted on the raid planner. People sign up for raids. The day of or the night before, the raid is slotted by one of our leaders. He has various considerations he takes into account in slotting the raid (e.g. how many of which classes are needed, recent attendance, attitude, etc.) which he's posted in a post on our forums. Some classes have a bit more competition to get slotted, others don't.
If you're not slotted, or you indicate "standby" on the planner, technically you're on the waitlist and may be able to join the raid if there's room and/or your class is needed (if there's room for your class).
We have no attendance requirement - at all.
Very loose system but it works well for us.
# posted by : 27/6/06 18:44
: 27/6/06 18:44
Our guild isn't any where near large enough to get enough players for a Molton Core run, but has an alliance with three other similar size guilds.
The guilds take it in turn to 'host', providing the main tank and having sign-up priority over the other guilds. The other guilds make up numbers and class balance with the host guild making any decisions. In practice most people get to go most weeks. There's a cross-guild DKP system.
The guilds take it in turn to 'host', providing the main tank and having sign-up priority over the other guilds. The other guilds make up numbers and class balance with the host guild making any decisions. In practice most people get to go most weeks. There's a cross-guild DKP system.
# posted by : 28/6/06 13:10
: 28/6/06 13:10
The guild I used to be a member of started raiding ZG two weeks ago. Since then, they have returned to ZG four times and already people are dropping like flies. My main is only a level 52 and climibing but it was nice to be able to step back from the pressure of a raid and see how our officers would handle distribution of loot attendance, ect ect. From what I can see, our guild did quite well getting people to show up, as well as fair distribution of loot, however where they failed miserably, was in the area of common courtesy. Let me explain, our guild was started by a few people who used to be part of an exclusive raid guild that raided everynight; they got tired of attendance and guilt yada yada yada so they started a guild that was specifically designed for "casual" raiders and players alike. Well the founders of the guild were all friends in RL, and not all of them were kind hearted individuals, in fact only one of the 3 founders I would describe as genuinely helpful. So while the group was fair with loot and fair with attendance, many of the officers were official pricks and by the 4th ZG run, we had lost 8 of our total 25 60's. I had been with the guild for 3 months grinding my way to the top just to get a feel for the guild and who I identified with and who I didn't. Well last night was the last straw for me. 5 of the people I respected the most couldn't take the criticism, sarcasm, and downright disrespect that a few of our officers felt was their duty to dish out whenever a member acted "immature", and with those five people gone, the guild became lifeless and downright boring. I joined another guild that I was secretly testing with an alt that I created to see what they were like and so far I couldn't be happier. Casual guild with fun loving players. I think that if you are going to be hardcore, then you should join a hardcore guild that is a no nonsense RP style guild; not create a casual guild and then get mad at members for being casual.
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# posted by : 28/6/06 17:11
: 28/6/06 17:11<< Home
