Tuesday, June 13, 2006
Loot distribution and trust
I am currently in a guild alliance where the loot distribution is by some sort of top-down system: The player of each class that raids the most gets first pick of any loot, then what he doesn't want goes to the second player, and so on. That is done by a DKP system with fixed DKP rewards for raiding, and fixed DKP cost for getting loot, but with the DKP cost being relatively low compared to the rewards, so getting epic items doesn't change your ranking in the class list much.
The advantage of this system is most visible for the warrior class, the warrior that raids most gets all the epics he needs to turn him into an excellent main tank. For the other classes the advantage is not so clear. Would it be better to have one priest with 8 epics and three priests with zero, or would it be better to have four priests with two epics each? I don't know.
Personally I would prefer a more evenly distributed loot system, for example what you get with a zero-sum system, where the amount of epics you get is directly proportional to the number and quality of bosses you kill. The "main tank" raiding twice as often as another warrior would get twice as many epics, but just not all of them. One reason for me to prefer even distribution systems is that they are more motivating for the players. It is hard to tell somebody that if he raids often enough, one day he will be the next in line to receive all the epics.
But the main problem I have with the "completely equip one guy first" system is trust. I can see that if we all stay together and do Molten Core for a year, we will all end up fully equipped with tier 1 epics. But in World of Warcraft guilds have a relatively high churn rate, people leaving, guilds splitting, or even disbanding. And I think uneven loot distribution is only adding to the churn. Once the first guy in the list is fully equipped with epics, he is stuck. He doesn't get any more epics until the whole guild is ready to move to the next level of challenge, and that isn't likely to happen before everybody else is equipped. So the temptation to leave and join a guild which is further advanced in the raid circuit is big. And even if the fully equipped guy isn't leaving for another guild, why should he still turn up for every boring farming raid which will net him nothing? The risk is high that he either raids less, or even gets bored and quits the game.
In the end distributing loot in a guild is like investment, you shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket. It is better to distribute the loot evenly, so everybody still has something to gain by raiding together, and everybody remains motivated.
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Your loot system has serious inflation. Fixed-price DKP should not work like that. You need to increase the prices of your items, or stop giving out so much DKP.
The whole "gear your main tank up first" shouldn't happen because the main tank somehow has more DKP than every one else. If you feel gearing the MT first is important, you do it by giving her priority on loot, even though other warriors have more DKP.
If the inflow and outflow of DKP in a Fixed Price system is set correctly, you should end up with much the same result as Zero-Sum. Zero-Sum is just a different--slightly more inflexible--method of calculating it.
The whole "gear your main tank up first" shouldn't happen because the main tank somehow has more DKP than every one else. If you feel gearing the MT first is important, you do it by giving her priority on loot, even though other warriors have more DKP.
If the inflow and outflow of DKP in a Fixed Price system is set correctly, you should end up with much the same result as Zero-Sum. Zero-Sum is just a different--slightly more inflexible--method of calculating it.
I'm fully aware of the inflation. But I think the guys who set the system up did it on purpose. My request to make items cost more DKP and get closer to a zero-sum system were denied. The system is "working as intended" to create a ranking from "most serious raider" to "least serious raider".
But I fully agree that if I would design a DKP system I'd shoot for a fixed-price system which is as close to zero-sum as possible. I could also live with pure zero-sum, but I like the idea of being able to give bonus points to people for things like being on time, or trying a new boss.
But I fully agree that if I would design a DKP system I'd shoot for a fixed-price system which is as close to zero-sum as possible. I could also live with pure zero-sum, but I like the idea of being able to give bonus points to people for things like being on time, or trying a new boss.
I'm a big fan of the blind auction mechanism my guild uses ( http://www.dawnraiders.com ). It's fairly simple - you get DKP per hour of raiding, more DKP for harder dungeons (incentive to get people to dungeons where we die alot ;) ).
When loot drops its called and everyone interested gets to bid an amount of DKP - if you really want it you bid a stack, if its kind of an upgrade you may go min bid.
This means those that raid alot can bid hard as required and those who are more casual can wait and min-bid stuff as it comes up and a few have it - or save and put large bids in on things they really want. I tend to do the latter as I probably attend about 70% of the raids.
Also, in practice the scenario of one character with 8 pieces and everyone else of that class with zero is very unlikely. My experience of raiding is that there are many duplicate drops. Whilst you may end up with a few people early on with 7 or 8 pieces other members of that class would likely have 2 to 5 pieces at about the same time. In theory once a few have 8 pieces you'll be ready for BWL because the other guys are starting to get the 3 and 5 piece set bonuses.
I do prefer the excitement and fairness of the random auction approach and think it leads to a more balanced guild, but the mechanism your using won't lead to the worst case elitist scenario you describe either. The beauty of random loots ;)
When loot drops its called and everyone interested gets to bid an amount of DKP - if you really want it you bid a stack, if its kind of an upgrade you may go min bid.
This means those that raid alot can bid hard as required and those who are more casual can wait and min-bid stuff as it comes up and a few have it - or save and put large bids in on things they really want. I tend to do the latter as I probably attend about 70% of the raids.
Also, in practice the scenario of one character with 8 pieces and everyone else of that class with zero is very unlikely. My experience of raiding is that there are many duplicate drops. Whilst you may end up with a few people early on with 7 or 8 pieces other members of that class would likely have 2 to 5 pieces at about the same time. In theory once a few have 8 pieces you'll be ready for BWL because the other guys are starting to get the 3 and 5 piece set bonuses.
I do prefer the excitement and fairness of the random auction approach and think it leads to a more balanced guild, but the mechanism your using won't lead to the worst case elitist scenario you describe either. The beauty of random loots ;)
I like blind auction too - for all its flaws its transparent. Zero sum has major issues with deincentivising attempting new content, fixed price almost always ends up being inflationary because the people who set the prices benefit from it being that way, and merit loot, where the officers decide, can only work in a tight, loyal, dedicated raid guild.
Well, if it's deliberate, I think that you guys are probably going to have some serious loot drama eventually.
The point of a loot system is to be fair. Ideally, if you see 40 epics drop, you should get 1. Your system strikes me as deeply unfair.
The point of a loot system is to be fair. Ideally, if you see 40 epics drop, you should get 1. Your system strikes me as deeply unfair.
In our guild, in the priest group we have a "get everyone to three pieces of transcendence" priority rule -- the three piece bonus (15% mana regen while casting, stacks with meditation) was judged sufficiently awesome for raids.
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