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Thursday, November 09, 2006
First person - third person
The PC games review magazine I buy has a DVD with video reviews, that's why I buy it. Seeing some gameplay video with comments is a lot more informative than written words and static screenshots. This month is a good one for fans of role-playing and strategy games, like me. There is Medieval 2, and Anno 1701 on the strategy games side, and Neverwinter Nights 2 and Dark Messiah of Might & Magic on the role-playing side. And looking at the video reviews I quickly decided that the one game I certainly wouldn't buy is Dark Messiah of Might & Magic. Because of all the games in the list it is the only first person view game.
I also didn't play Oblivion, for the same reason: Oblivion is first person view. You can play it in a fake third person view, where basically the camera is moved back to behind your head, instead of in it. But then it still behaves like a first person game, that is the camera points where your character looks. And, most stupidly, in the case of Oblivion your view of the cursor is then blocked by the back of your head. Doh!
I just can't play first person games very well. In the best of cases I just don't have the overview of my surroundings as in a third person view game. In the worst of cases I get video game motion sickness. In any case I don't enjoy playing first person view games very much, so I tend to not buy them.
Interestingly most MMORPG can be played from a third person perspective. While most shooter games can't. The difference is that in shooter games you need to target your enemy exactly, while in a MMORPG you lock onto a target, and can usually hit it as long as it remains in a wide arc in front of you. Now upcoming MMORPG are about to introduce more active combat, with more elements not unlike a first-person shooter game. Tabula Rasa proudly claims to introduce first-person shooter elements into the MMORPG genre. Which makes me wonder in what view these games will be played. Third person? First person? Or the Oblivion-like fake third person view, where the camera always points in the same direction as your nose?
I would much prefer if all MMORPG could be played in third person view. Because just like in WoW you can always zoom in a third person view so much that it becomes a first person view, which means that first person view fans are never excluded. But if MMORPG became first person view, I wonder how many people would stop buying them. I would be one.
- posted by Tobold @ 8:51 AM Permanent Link
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Did you ever wonder why most RPG's from Asia are third person? That on Console most RPG's are third person? That virtually no shooters are being developed in Asia?
There oyu go: Motion Sickness is about 5% present in the western world, but over 60% in the asian world (!).
Thats one of the most important reasons why most MMOG's are third person to support the asian market.
Note that WoW can be played first person. Quite a change I must say.
I also find it odd that you can change your character looks in Oblivion but never see yourself. Not even friends can see you, so why bother?
There oyu go: Motion Sickness is about 5% present in the western world, but over 60% in the asian world (!).
Thats one of the most important reasons why most MMOG's are third person to support the asian market.
Note that WoW can be played first person. Quite a change I must say.
I also find it odd that you can change your character looks in Oblivion but never see yourself. Not even friends can see you, so why bother?
# posted by 
: 9/11/06 09:33
: 9/11/06 09:33
It's strange - back in my EQ and AO days, I *always* played 1st person. I'm not sure exactly when it changed, but now if an MMO has 3rd, I'll use it.
Regarding FPS, Planetside has fixed 3rd, and although next-to-useless for aiming guns as a grunt, as you mention, it's very powerful when used to 'cheat' - i.e. use the further back position of the camera to see 'around' rocks and pillars that your soldier is hidden behind. Typically used for ambushing - you can see them coming, but they can't see you.
One helpful use of 3rd is driving the tanks and buggies. Having no wing-mirrors or peripheral vision, being able to see the sides of your own tank from behind helps avoid running friendlies down.
Interestingly, the Darklight implant - used to detect cloaked enemies, was nerfed not to long ago, to *force* the player into 1st when used - it was far too easy to watch your own back with it :)
Regarding FPS, Planetside has fixed 3rd, and although next-to-useless for aiming guns as a grunt, as you mention, it's very powerful when used to 'cheat' - i.e. use the further back position of the camera to see 'around' rocks and pillars that your soldier is hidden behind. Typically used for ambushing - you can see them coming, but they can't see you.
One helpful use of 3rd is driving the tanks and buggies. Having no wing-mirrors or peripheral vision, being able to see the sides of your own tank from behind helps avoid running friendlies down.
Interestingly, the Darklight implant - used to detect cloaked enemies, was nerfed not to long ago, to *force* the player into 1st when used - it was far too easy to watch your own back with it :)
# posted by : 9/11/06 11:02
: 9/11/06 11:02
The viewing point goes hand-in-hand with gameplay. In WoW 1st person view just gimps you due gameplay, while in Oblivion it is the otherway.
Funny thing is I find 3rd person somewhat disorienting, though I can live with it. I prefer either 1st person (for immersion) or isometric view รก la Baldur's Gate (so I don't need to swing camera around to see things). 3rd person view is to me the bastard child of isometric and 1st person.
Funny thing is I find 3rd person somewhat disorienting, though I can live with it. I prefer either 1st person (for immersion) or isometric view รก la Baldur's Gate (so I don't need to swing camera around to see things). 3rd person view is to me the bastard child of isometric and 1st person.
But WOW is a "game" with a stylised world and an artificial ruleset. Third person viewpoint is entirely appropriate because you are like a chessplayer moving your pieces on the gaming table.
Modern first person games are actually aiming for more than just gameplay they are moving towards the creation of totally immersive believeable virtual worlds. You live in the game world so first person perpective is essential. Someone asked how you see what you look like in a first person game. The answer is you go into a bathroom and look in a mirror just like you would have to do in the real world.
Of course today's games are still crude and in a few years we will be laughing at how primitive they are. You are entirely correct when you suggest that stylised games like WOW have more lasting value precisely because of this. Chess has remained popular for hundred of years beacuse of engrossing gameplay not because we like the pretty chesspieces. Nevertheless I think the strive to produce a beautiful immersive wirtual world that you actually live in in first person is incredibly exciting.
Please don't form a campaign against realistic first person games Tobold. I think there will always be a place for third person "rule based" games just as there will always be a place for chess but I for one cannot wait to walk in first person on the streets of a massively multiplayer virtual world that is as immersive and realistic as the best single player games are today.
Modern first person games are actually aiming for more than just gameplay they are moving towards the creation of totally immersive believeable virtual worlds. You live in the game world so first person perpective is essential. Someone asked how you see what you look like in a first person game. The answer is you go into a bathroom and look in a mirror just like you would have to do in the real world.
Of course today's games are still crude and in a few years we will be laughing at how primitive they are. You are entirely correct when you suggest that stylised games like WOW have more lasting value precisely because of this. Chess has remained popular for hundred of years beacuse of engrossing gameplay not because we like the pretty chesspieces. Nevertheless I think the strive to produce a beautiful immersive wirtual world that you actually live in in first person is incredibly exciting.
Please don't form a campaign against realistic first person games Tobold. I think there will always be a place for third person "rule based" games just as there will always be a place for chess but I for one cannot wait to walk in first person on the streets of a massively multiplayer virtual world that is as immersive and realistic as the best single player games are today.
I played EQ in 1st person, and with a minimalist UI (everything could be accessed via hot buttons basically), so as to give me the greatest "window on the world". Only once in a great while did I go third person, usually when I was kiting a few 2k hitters or something and wanted to be sure I had room to move.
I tried WoW in 1st person and it's horrible. You miss out on so much. There's frequently an out-of-direct-eyesight gathering/mining/etc node, or a quest person, or something else you are oblivious to.
I tried WoW in 1st person and it's horrible. You miss out on so much. There's frequently an out-of-direct-eyesight gathering/mining/etc node, or a quest person, or something else you are oblivious to.
# posted by : 9/11/06 16:25
: 9/11/06 16:25
I'm in the 5% of Westerners -- 1st-person in games gives me serious motion sickness; a spinning headache that lasts for hours. It's awful.
In WoW I do sometimes get motion sickness when repeatedly trying to climb a hill / ridge / mountain unsuccessfully and the view keeps jumping in and out, up and down, and side to side.
My only problems with WoW 3rd-person is that the camera seems inconsistent in two major cases that come to mind:
- In a building with my back to a wall my camera will be pushed forward so I can still see (theoretically, anyway). That's disorienting sometimes, but a good design idea overall (IMO). But go outside, and tree leaf graphics or the PvP flag I'm guarding simply block my view rather than forcing the camera forward like in buildings, leaving me suddenly blind and fumbling with the camera distance or angle.
- With druids in bear or cat form, the camera-view-pushed-forward-in-building effect often leaves me looking at the inside of my bear or cat. It's maddening, and forces me to put the camera in nearly a top-view mode - and then I can't see much of what's going on around me, like where that shadow spell came from (and I *don't* swing my camera back down to look or I get the bear or cat anatomy view, again). If I swing the camera to the side so the wall isn't behind the camera, that works -- until I move and the camera auto-corrects to behind my head and then forward because of the wall, and the I get the bear or cat anatomy view again.
In WoW I do sometimes get motion sickness when repeatedly trying to climb a hill / ridge / mountain unsuccessfully and the view keeps jumping in and out, up and down, and side to side.
My only problems with WoW 3rd-person is that the camera seems inconsistent in two major cases that come to mind:
- In a building with my back to a wall my camera will be pushed forward so I can still see (theoretically, anyway). That's disorienting sometimes, but a good design idea overall (IMO). But go outside, and tree leaf graphics or the PvP flag I'm guarding simply block my view rather than forcing the camera forward like in buildings, leaving me suddenly blind and fumbling with the camera distance or angle.
- With druids in bear or cat form, the camera-view-pushed-forward-in-building effect often leaves me looking at the inside of my bear or cat. It's maddening, and forces me to put the camera in nearly a top-view mode - and then I can't see much of what's going on around me, like where that shadow spell came from (and I *don't* swing my camera back down to look or I get the bear or cat anatomy view, again). If I swing the camera to the side so the wall isn't behind the camera, that works -- until I move and the camera auto-corrects to behind my head and then forward because of the wall, and the I get the bear or cat anatomy view again.
I never get motion sickness while playing although I have caught myself leaning my real life body to one side to "look around" an object in the virtual world.
My body suffers from video game sickness something horribly. She cannot watch me play WoW, Quake, Mario Sunshine, etc. without getting a headache after just a few minutes, if that long. Sometimes watching the screen for even just a few seconds spins her out.
She had her eyes closed for a lot of The Blair Witch Project because of the bouncing FP camera, and had to leave the theater during the beachhead scene of Saving Private Ryan.
I've tried playing WoW in FP mode but as someone else has already mentioned, it doesn't work (for me) because you miss so much of what is happening around you while in FP view.
My body suffers from video game sickness something horribly. She cannot watch me play WoW, Quake, Mario Sunshine, etc. without getting a headache after just a few minutes, if that long. Sometimes watching the screen for even just a few seconds spins her out.
She had her eyes closed for a lot of The Blair Witch Project because of the bouncing FP camera, and had to leave the theater during the beachhead scene of Saving Private Ryan.
I've tried playing WoW in FP mode but as someone else has already mentioned, it doesn't work (for me) because you miss so much of what is happening around you while in FP view.
I think that several folks will agree with this....
I'll like first person when I get some kind pherial vision.
As it is, in Oblivion I keep getting mentally knocked out of the game because it's like my character's wearing blinders-- and that's on widescreen.
I'm kinda NOT friends with tight spaces. Point of fact, I tend to black out and hit people if I can't see much and it seems I'm trapped. I don't like even a *hint* of that kind of feeling in my games.
I'll like first person when I get some kind pherial vision.
As it is, in Oblivion I keep getting mentally knocked out of the game because it's like my character's wearing blinders-- and that's on widescreen.
I'm kinda NOT friends with tight spaces. Point of fact, I tend to black out and hit people if I can't see much and it seems I'm trapped. I don't like even a *hint* of that kind of feeling in my games.
By the way, the 5% figure is for men. The chance of a woman having video game motion sickness is in the 10% to 15% range. Maybe that explains at least a part of the lack of women in gaming.
For a long time I always thought that I was the only one had such weird sensations after playing FPS games.
I googled with a few key words and it brought me here.
It makes me sick, makes my head spin, makes me want to throw up and what not. It doesn't go away till I get a few hrs of sleep.
I never realized this effect was so wide spread.
The above citings in terms of the percentage of people who experience this and that being the reason for the lack of FP games in the asia is interesting.
-K
I googled with a few key words and it brought me here.
It makes me sick, makes my head spin, makes me want to throw up and what not. It doesn't go away till I get a few hrs of sleep.
I never realized this effect was so wide spread.
The above citings in terms of the percentage of people who experience this and that being the reason for the lack of FP games in the asia is interesting.
-K
# posted by : 20/8/07 10:53
: 20/8/07 10:53
I'm with K.
I too was searching around the net about fps and rpgs. I've just been playing Morrowind since I don't have a high end machine for Oblivion and I struggle with the camera as FPS.
WoW has one of the best set ups imo, allowing for scrolling in and out. At least you can see surroundings and actually target a creature and not randomly try and hit it and then have to move the camera and the character to hit again. Frustrating!
I've never been much of an FPS player anyway. I had my years of Doom but now I don't think I can enjoy it much anymore. I think that's why I will hold off on Oblivion.
I too was searching around the net about fps and rpgs. I've just been playing Morrowind since I don't have a high end machine for Oblivion and I struggle with the camera as FPS.
WoW has one of the best set ups imo, allowing for scrolling in and out. At least you can see surroundings and actually target a creature and not randomly try and hit it and then have to move the camera and the character to hit again. Frustrating!
I've never been much of an FPS player anyway. I had my years of Doom but now I don't think I can enjoy it much anymore. I think that's why I will hold off on Oblivion.
Yup...i thought i was the only one who gets a headache when playing FPS, thats why when they release RE4, i enjoy it very much coz its 3rd person view. In the future, i hope evry shooter game has an option for players to choose FPS or 3rdPerson view.
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# posted by : 26/9/07 03:23
: 26/9/07 03:23<< Home
