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Tuesday, November 07, 2006
Wolfgangdoom on balance
Wolfgangdoom has a very nice blog entry on balance, and he is against it. I'd say the issue isn't that easy.
The problem is that we don't even have a good definition of what balance is. Or rather, we know that balance means that different character classes should be equally strong, but we fail to define "strong in what?". If your definition of strong is a pure PvE soloing definition, you could measure the speed how fast a character class levels when playing solo. In that respect World of Warcraft is pretty well balanced, the difference in soloing power between the weakest and the strongest class isn't all that large. But the classes I'm playing (priest, tank) are definitely on the "less strong" side of the list. Why would I chose to play the "weakest" classes? I could play a hunter or warlock, which are much better for soloing.
The answer is that soloing speed isn't all that important to me. If I wanted just to solo, I could play a single-player game. I like playing in groups, and my personal definition of strong is "most likely to get invited into a group". Suddenly my priest and tank move to the top of the strength list. And World of Warcraft becomes less balanced. The difference in likelyhood to get invited into a group between a hunter and a priest is much larger than their difference in soloing speed.
Where World of Warcraft class balance breaks down totally is in PvP. The way PvP works in WoW, honor points are given out based on damage dealt, which obviously favors damage dealing classes. A tank or a priest simply earn a lot less honor on a battleground than a rogue or a mage. And in the arena combats I tried, my priest had no chance whatsoever against a rogue, because the rogue simply went invisible, and I couldn't do anything. Then I got stun-locked and couldn't do anything. Then I died. Abilities like stealth or stun become immensely powerful in PvP, while other abilities like my tanks taunt become totally useless. So making a game in which the classes are equally balanced for solo PvE, group PvE, and PvP seems pretty much impossible to me.
I think Blizzard made good choices in balancing. It is important that every class can solo PvE and level up at reasonable speed. Group PvE balance is harder to balance, because it also depends on numbers; part of the popularity of priests is based on them being relatively rare. And on older servers that balance starts to correct itself, as people see that more priests are needed for raids, and roll priests to get into raiding guilds.
With World of Warcraft being primarily a PvE game, being primarily PvE balanced is important. But the more Blizzard is trying to focus on PvP, the more problematic class balance becomes. With the arenas coming up in the Burning Crusade, there are some classes which simply aren't viable in a 2 vs 2 fight, and priests are certainly one of the non-viable classes. As the arenas again give out rewards on a relative scale, making a team including sub-optimal PvP classes is just a waste of time and money. I don't see defensive spec'd warriors or hunters doing well in arena PvP either. Rogues, mages, and warlocks will rule. Shamans, paladins, and non-resto druids might come in useful for the larger teams, as support classes. And it would be nearly impossible to change the abilities of the classes in a way that they remain balanced in PvE and become balanced in PvP as well.
In the end the only real balance on offer is the ability to play any class you want. If you are looking for the strongest soloer, roll a warlock. Want easy group invites? Roll a priest. Want to dominate arena PvP? Roll a rogue. Prefer Alterac Valley PvP? Maybe a paladin is your best option. Just don't expect one class to shine in all fields (although mage comes pretty close to that).
- posted by Tobold @ 10:30 AM Permanent Link
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I like free respecs, hadn't even noticed they were 1c now in the beta, because every patch gave me a free respec anyway.
The limitation I would propose is the one that is already there: You need to visit your trainer to reset the talents. Thus respeccing per boss won't be viable, unless the whole raid travels to the city and back.
The limitation I would propose is the one that is already there: You need to visit your trainer to reset the talents. Thus respeccing per boss won't be viable, unless the whole raid travels to the city and back.
A separate ruleset for PvP and PvE would help a lot; Blizzard is already heading in this direction (e.g. consider the limitations on consumables and long timers in Arenas).
I think that sounds great, but the skills in WOW still lean heavily towards PVE combat. The only way that PVP will become more than 4 on 4 rogue action is when Blizz decides to create new skills to be used specifically for PVP. Guild Wars did a nice job in that department by giving players so many skills to choose from that "balance" really was tossed into the players hands.
The tank I played in Guild Wars, was designed to kill casters. I had 3 interupt skills equipped at any one time with one finishing blow, 2 heals, and usually 2 skills that caused bleeding. If I went up against another tank that was specced to deliver damage I was toast, but against mages and mesmers, I ruled.
My post on Balance was intended to be more about putting the balance into the players hands so that the developers would be less responsible if a player didn't like their class, or just tossing the idea in general because in my opinion, it destroys the class they are shooting for. Paladins in WOW really come to mind as that class seems to be missing their identity. Logically speaking, Paladins should destroy the Undead, but because Undead is a playable class, Blizz kinda boxed themselves into a corner due to PVP. Noone would play undead if it meant that a Pali would pwn them every time they set foot in AV. But PVP isn't what WOW is all about, if it were, then Endgame would be uber BG's; not PVE raids.
So my argument is that when designers focus on PVE, it hurts PVP and vice versa but who ultimately suffers the most are the players.
GW does a great job of giving players skills for PVE and PVP, and they allow players to change skills whenever they want, without paying for it. Unfortunately, what GW doesn't offer is crafting, seamless landscapes, or the ability to swim/jump.
My perfect game would be a WOW GW hybrid but perhaps we are years away from seeing a game like that.
I think that sounds great, but the skills in WOW still lean heavily towards PVE combat. The only way that PVP will become more than 4 on 4 rogue action is when Blizz decides to create new skills to be used specifically for PVP. Guild Wars did a nice job in that department by giving players so many skills to choose from that "balance" really was tossed into the players hands.
The tank I played in Guild Wars, was designed to kill casters. I had 3 interupt skills equipped at any one time with one finishing blow, 2 heals, and usually 2 skills that caused bleeding. If I went up against another tank that was specced to deliver damage I was toast, but against mages and mesmers, I ruled.
My post on Balance was intended to be more about putting the balance into the players hands so that the developers would be less responsible if a player didn't like their class, or just tossing the idea in general because in my opinion, it destroys the class they are shooting for. Paladins in WOW really come to mind as that class seems to be missing their identity. Logically speaking, Paladins should destroy the Undead, but because Undead is a playable class, Blizz kinda boxed themselves into a corner due to PVP. Noone would play undead if it meant that a Pali would pwn them every time they set foot in AV. But PVP isn't what WOW is all about, if it were, then Endgame would be uber BG's; not PVE raids.
So my argument is that when designers focus on PVE, it hurts PVP and vice versa but who ultimately suffers the most are the players.
GW does a great job of giving players skills for PVE and PVP, and they allow players to change skills whenever they want, without paying for it. Unfortunately, what GW doesn't offer is crafting, seamless landscapes, or the ability to swim/jump.
My perfect game would be a WOW GW hybrid but perhaps we are years away from seeing a game like that.
Funny thing, from what I was reading, it's Warrior/Paladin teams that are dominating the arena fights right now, not rogues. :)
# posted by 
: 8/11/06 00:31
: 8/11/06 00:31
I think Blizzard had a good idea with the 3 Talent Trees per Class; the problem was the whining masses who screamed "ZOMG! 'Insert Class Here' are overpwrd! Nerf! Nerf!"
For example, the Hunter's Beast Mastery Tree is perfect for a solo-grinding Hunter and ok in an Instance but not as useful as the Marksman Tree. The MM Tree is ok for grinding but it's not as devastating in PvP as the Survival Tree, which is ok in Instances but hopeless for solo-grinding.
Blizzard should have ignored the whining masses and just built each tree around grinding, Instances, and PvP.
Who cares if a Hunter can pwn a Rogue? The Rogue loses to the Hunter who loses to the Warrior who loses to the Mage who loses to the Rogue.
That's what Balance is but the whining masses wanted their own class to pwn every other class and they made sure Blizzard knew about it when another class was "ZOMG! Overpowered!"
For example, the Hunter's Beast Mastery Tree is perfect for a solo-grinding Hunter and ok in an Instance but not as useful as the Marksman Tree. The MM Tree is ok for grinding but it's not as devastating in PvP as the Survival Tree, which is ok in Instances but hopeless for solo-grinding.
Blizzard should have ignored the whining masses and just built each tree around grinding, Instances, and PvP.
Who cares if a Hunter can pwn a Rogue? The Rogue loses to the Hunter who loses to the Warrior who loses to the Mage who loses to the Rogue.
That's what Balance is but the whining masses wanted their own class to pwn every other class and they made sure Blizzard knew about it when another class was "ZOMG! Overpowered!"
Sounds like you're simply not a very good Priest. Priests absolutely rape Rogues.
Try using your instant cast fear and healing yourself as your dot ticks their life away?
Try using your instant cast fear and healing yourself as your dot ticks their life away?
# posted by : 8/11/06 04:52
: 8/11/06 04:52
"Then I got stun-locked and couldn't do anything. Then I died. Abilities like stealth or stun become immensely powerful in PvP, while other abilities like my tanks taunt become totally useless. So making a game in which the classes are equally balanced for solo PvE, group PvE, and PvP seems pretty much impossible to me."
That is a misleading statement of how apparently imbalanced rogues will be. The theory about how rogues can stunlock you from 100-0 is a pure myth.
First of all, after the first Cheap Shot wears off, the rogue will not have enough energy to execute his kidney shot until one or two seconds later. During this time, you should be mashing your fear button like crazy and should be able to fear the rogue off you since its instant cast. When the rogue is feared, put a dot on him, shield yourself, heal, and then you have a rogue who is significant distant from you, cannot vanish due to having a dot, and you are now at full health making all his damage he initally done to you futile.
Now granted thier are rogues that are assination specced or hemo specced (Both might I mention do signficantly less damage in PvE settings) In that cased, a rogue will probably get a Kidney shot and keep you in stun for 4-5 sec but you should still have enough health to survive that stunlock and fear the rogue off you, dot him, shield and heal up. After the rogue blows his kidney shot, hes pretty much done with stunlocking, out of energy, and is now very vulnerable to counter attacks. If you are dying before the kidney shot, then there is probably a gear imbalance between you since I have stunlocked hundreds of priests and only a few of them die before after the KS because I vastly outgear them.
Finally I found the comment about warriors not being able to taunt hilarious. Have you seen the amount of devastating shit a warrior can do to people? I wont go into the specifics but once they get the gear, they can pretty much 2-3 shot everyone in thier path. Warriors also become raid bosses if they have healers backing them up along with a windfury totem.
That is a misleading statement of how apparently imbalanced rogues will be. The theory about how rogues can stunlock you from 100-0 is a pure myth.
First of all, after the first Cheap Shot wears off, the rogue will not have enough energy to execute his kidney shot until one or two seconds later. During this time, you should be mashing your fear button like crazy and should be able to fear the rogue off you since its instant cast. When the rogue is feared, put a dot on him, shield yourself, heal, and then you have a rogue who is significant distant from you, cannot vanish due to having a dot, and you are now at full health making all his damage he initally done to you futile.
Now granted thier are rogues that are assination specced or hemo specced (Both might I mention do signficantly less damage in PvE settings) In that cased, a rogue will probably get a Kidney shot and keep you in stun for 4-5 sec but you should still have enough health to survive that stunlock and fear the rogue off you, dot him, shield and heal up. After the rogue blows his kidney shot, hes pretty much done with stunlocking, out of energy, and is now very vulnerable to counter attacks. If you are dying before the kidney shot, then there is probably a gear imbalance between you since I have stunlocked hundreds of priests and only a few of them die before after the KS because I vastly outgear them.
Finally I found the comment about warriors not being able to taunt hilarious. Have you seen the amount of devastating shit a warrior can do to people? I wont go into the specifics but once they get the gear, they can pretty much 2-3 shot everyone in thier path. Warriors also become raid bosses if they have healers backing them up along with a windfury totem.
# posted by : 8/11/06 06:57
: 8/11/06 06:57
What a warrior can do in PvP depends on his talent build and gear. If I call my warrior a "tank", that is because I built him up for being the main tank in a group, gathering mainly +defence gear for him. A flurry dps warrior is a much different story in PvP. But then you can forget about being a main tank in PvE.
Same thing with the rogues who killed me in the arena, they were certainly PvP specced, while I was PvE specced. I hammered the Psychic Scream button repeatedly, but I swear I was perma-stunned and the spell never went off. Of course my PvE healing gear gives me a great mana pool and mana regeneration, and a very tiny amount of hit points. If I was a shadow priest in full PvP gear, with lots of stamina, damage reduction from shadow form, etc., I'd easily survive a rogue.
But as I can't respec easily from PvE to PvP and back every day, and because I don't have the PvP specific gear, I lose against people who chose their talents and gear especially for PvP.
Funny thing, from what I was reading, it's Warrior/Paladin teams that are dominating the arena fights right now, not rogues. :)
Stone, paper, scissors. When the clothies get beaten by the rogues, and rogues start to dominate the arenas, the next obvious step is people bringing the class that resists rogues the best. Once all the teams are Warrior/Paladin, suddenly the mages and priests will be back, and so on, in endless cycle.
Same thing with the rogues who killed me in the arena, they were certainly PvP specced, while I was PvE specced. I hammered the Psychic Scream button repeatedly, but I swear I was perma-stunned and the spell never went off. Of course my PvE healing gear gives me a great mana pool and mana regeneration, and a very tiny amount of hit points. If I was a shadow priest in full PvP gear, with lots of stamina, damage reduction from shadow form, etc., I'd easily survive a rogue.
But as I can't respec easily from PvE to PvP and back every day, and because I don't have the PvP specific gear, I lose against people who chose their talents and gear especially for PvP.
Funny thing, from what I was reading, it's Warrior/Paladin teams that are dominating the arena fights right now, not rogues. :)
Stone, paper, scissors. When the clothies get beaten by the rogues, and rogues start to dominate the arenas, the next obvious step is people bringing the class that resists rogues the best. Once all the teams are Warrior/Paladin, suddenly the mages and priests will be back, and so on, in endless cycle.
How does Taunt work in a PvP setting, I seem to see a lot of warriors complaining that it is pretty useless (and of course asking for Fear/Stunlock to be nerfed, imba blah blah) ?
Playing a priest myself, I am always getting my backside kicked should I attempt PvP - yes I should learn to play I know !
It is all very well having a strategy against a particular class, but it is recognising the situation and being able to react instantly - by the time I have thought, "ooh what is happening, can't see anyone, hang on, er, oh yes, rouge, fear, erm" I am usually dead. 5-6 seconds is a long long long time to be stunned, you panic.
Was having a conversation about the Priest's Blackout talent the other day PVE vs PVP.
Computer AI doesn't panic, it gets Blackout and just waits, and perhaps decides what to do next. Blackout is so much more in PvP - it is perhaps unexpected. Unless you play a lot of PvP the unexpected is hard to deal with instantly.
Playing a priest myself, I am always getting my backside kicked should I attempt PvP - yes I should learn to play I know !
It is all very well having a strategy against a particular class, but it is recognising the situation and being able to react instantly - by the time I have thought, "ooh what is happening, can't see anyone, hang on, er, oh yes, rouge, fear, erm" I am usually dead. 5-6 seconds is a long long long time to be stunned, you panic.
Was having a conversation about the Priest's Blackout talent the other day PVE vs PVP.
Computer AI doesn't panic, it gets Blackout and just waits, and perhaps decides what to do next. Blackout is so much more in PvP - it is perhaps unexpected. Unless you play a lot of PvP the unexpected is hard to deal with instantly.
# posted by : 8/11/06 09:43
: 8/11/06 09:43
How does Taunt work in a PvP setting?
Simple: Not at all. The player targeted by the taunt doesn't even notice he has been taunted.
I think the least what they should have made taunt do is to automatically switch the taunted characters target to the warrior, even if he'd then be free to switch back to his original target.
Simple: Not at all. The player targeted by the taunt doesn't even notice he has been taunted.
I think the least what they should have made taunt do is to automatically switch the taunted characters target to the warrior, even if he'd then be free to switch back to his original target.
The problem isn't the limited skill system or repec cost penalty, it's the the value of skills in different environments. It´s a nightmare to think of heavy def-speced endgame raiders, who switch to full offense for pvp. The margin between casuals and not-so-casuals would be even wider than now.
PvP right now is to focused on dps and some classes access to it is too limited, that´s why every class is crying for more damage and no ones calling for more durability. Since the orginal beta people make suggestion like taunt forcing target switching in pvp too. There are solutions to make pure pve skills viable in pvp, but blizzard refuses to walk that road.
Some mechanics are so disfunctional that even free respecs would not solve problems. When you have classes relying on limited (mana) and unlimited (energy/rage) ressources and different kind of mitigation (magic/melee) with one kind being counterable and one not, say goodbye to balance.
Why would Blizzard even want every class to be suitable for every scenario? If you want to participate in every content of the game, you may have to play more than one character. You are forced to play more and Blizzard want's to earn money after all and not satisfied their players, by achieving total ingame balance.
As for arena fights, that will be a whole new and really short pvp experience, cause in the few fights i've done, crowd control won the game and nothing else. So if your class is good in this, you will succeed.
I guess we should not judge anything arena-wise yet. Arena will be level 70 content and there still is no level 70 on the horizon for the beta. For the majority of people the arena will fill maybe 1 hour a week of their playtime, so it´s not huge parts of content some classes will miss.
PvP right now is to focused on dps and some classes access to it is too limited, that´s why every class is crying for more damage and no ones calling for more durability. Since the orginal beta people make suggestion like taunt forcing target switching in pvp too. There are solutions to make pure pve skills viable in pvp, but blizzard refuses to walk that road.
Some mechanics are so disfunctional that even free respecs would not solve problems. When you have classes relying on limited (mana) and unlimited (energy/rage) ressources and different kind of mitigation (magic/melee) with one kind being counterable and one not, say goodbye to balance.
Why would Blizzard even want every class to be suitable for every scenario? If you want to participate in every content of the game, you may have to play more than one character. You are forced to play more and Blizzard want's to earn money after all and not satisfied their players, by achieving total ingame balance.
As for arena fights, that will be a whole new and really short pvp experience, cause in the few fights i've done, crowd control won the game and nothing else. So if your class is good in this, you will succeed.
I guess we should not judge anything arena-wise yet. Arena will be level 70 content and there still is no level 70 on the horizon for the beta. For the majority of people the arena will fill maybe 1 hour a week of their playtime, so it´s not huge parts of content some classes will miss.
# posted by : 8/11/06 13:22
: 8/11/06 13:22
"that´s why every class is crying for more damage and no ones calling for more durability."
Give me durability against casting classes, please. Blow all your mana whilst I heal myself. Then down you go. Mana pool vs Mana Pool fight.
Give me durability against casting classes, please. Blow all your mana whilst I heal myself. Then down you go. Mana pool vs Mana Pool fight.
# posted by : 8/11/06 15:51
: 8/11/06 15:51
The only use of Taunt in pvp is to taunt a hunters pet which makes it attack you while you are freeze trapped.
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# posted by : 12/11/06 21:15
: 12/11/06 21:15<< Home
