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Sunday, December 10, 2006
World of Warcraft's new easy epics to solo
The PvP reward system in World of Warcraft has fundamentally changed, and yesterday I tested it thoroughly, by doing battlegrounds with my warrior. My warrior only has one epic up to now, and the PvP reward epics you can get look pretty attractive for him. So my goal was working towards this equipment, while observing how PvP goes now, and what effect it has on the other players. The specific goal is getting a one-handed weapon like the High Warlord's Blade, which under the new system costs 22,500 honor and 20 Arathi Basin Marks of Honor.
I played a few hours of PvP on battlegrounds. I did 8 Arathi Basin battles, of which my side (Horde) won 7, for a total of 22 AB marks. That part of the requirements being fulfilled, I then did 4 Alterac Valley battlegrounds, of which my side won only 1, for 6 AV marks. In all of these battles together I did 259 honor kills, which is relatively low. I suck in PvP. And a warrior isn't the optimal class to kill stuff in PvP, especially not when its lagging and his targets seem to randomly zoom all over the place. My total honor point score for that one day of PvP was 4,390 honor points, about one fifth of what I need. I'm pretty sure that people who are better in PvP class could make more honor points, especially if they play a ranged dps class. But for me that score isn't that bad. Just 4 more days like that and I have my epic High Warlord's blade, which is significantly better than anything I was able to get outside of a raid dungeon.
And therein lies the rub. While previously getting a High Warlord's Blade would have required several months of daily PvP, I can now get the blade in 5 days. the entire epic armor set is 95,500 honor points plus 80 AB marks, 50 AV marks, and 30 WSG marks, thus you can get it all in a month now. And you don't have to play every day, not even every week, you don't lose PvP rank any more if you take a break. Getting epic PvP rewards is now significantly easier than before. And from the view of the casual player, who has problems getting into a raid, getting PvP epics is now significantly easier than getting any other epics. The new PvP reward system in a nutshell: Epics that you can easily solo.
Yes, I consider PvP to be a solo activity, because you don't need to organize a group or raid group to do it. You don't need to ask anybody for an invite, and there is no selection based on class and/or skill. You just sign up and will be automatically accepted for the next battleground. You don't even need to cooperate with the other players on the battleground, in fact few people do. You just become part of the zerg, and can still win. Organized groups would have an advantage, but there aren't many premade groups on the battlegrounds today, and you still have a good chance of winning certain battlegrounds if you play the faction that wins that battleground most of the time (Horde for AB, Alliance for AV. Who is winning WSG?).
Needless to say that PvP has become *very* popular. Who wouldn't want easy epics? During prime time I've seen more than 100 Arathi Basin battlegrounds being open at the same time, that is over 3,000 people playing AB in our "battlegroup" of 15 servers.
And the battleground servers don't handle that load very well. In the best of cases you just get lag, which can get really bad the more people play, up to several seconds of delay between pressing a button and getting a reaction. A far more serious problem is people getting stuck in battlegrounds at the end of the battle, unable to return. During the week that was so bad that Blizzard had to close the battlegrounds down and try to fix the bug. On the weekend that still happened, but could sometimes be fixed by logging off and on again. Once I had to log of for 1 hour before my character found his way back. And once I had a really weird bug: I entered the AB battleground and found myself all alone there, no other Horde or Alliance player. But the battle started anyway, I flagged all the 5 buildings, and received 3 AB victory marks and over 200 bonus honor points. Noz *that's* extreme PvP soloing. :)
I predict that PvP will remain popular and the battlegrounds overcrowded at least until the Burning Crusade comes out. There is a large population of players out there who never got more than a glimpse of Molten Core. The new PvP reward system is their best change to get a set of epics before the expansion comes out. While previously the PvP reward system was unbalanced to reward only the most extreme catass players, it is now unbalanced to give out easy epics to everybody. The reward to risk ratio for a solo player of level 60 is much, much better in PvP now than in any alternative game activity.
- posted by Tobold @ 7:35 AM Permanent Link
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In our battle group, 90% of the battles we fought were against pre-mades wearing AQ-40 and Naxx gear. Not much different from the twinks I found while leveling, but they were obviously not experienced with the BG tactics.
For a 60 like me (wearing greens and blues with no time to raid and unable to grind 500K honor a week) I found the endgame looked more like a dead end. This patch changed that so now I can have the pretty purple character I always wanted.
For a 60 like me (wearing greens and blues with no time to raid and unable to grind 500K honor a week) I found the endgame looked more like a dead end. This patch changed that so now I can have the pretty purple character I always wanted.
# posted by 
: 10/12/06 10:13
: 10/12/06 10:13
As someone who was pretty entrenched in the old honor system (rank 10), I have to say this is exactly why I don't like the changes.
I used to spend hours on end in AV, grinding honor for rank and rep. Since the patch I've done maybe 10 BGs. I've been thinking a lot about what's changed for me, and I think I have something like an idea.
Getting the best PvP gear used to be a challenge that required a time commitment similar to the other primary endgame goal: raiding. The character I PvP with is on a new server on the Horde side in a smaller, fairly casual guild. Raiding is not even on my radar over there, and that's fine by me because I have another toon I raid with several nights a week. So instead I would grind rank. Like you suggest, it's the perfect means to solo your way to some pretty decent gear.
Whenever I advanced a rank I felt like I had really earned it. You could make the argument that just spending a lot of time in BGs isn't a big accomplishment, but I never botted or cave dwelled, and always made a solid effort to contribute to my team's success.
It's not that I resent the ease with which people are now able to get the same or better gear. I enjoyed my time in the old honor system and wouldn't have changed anything I did.
The thing is I don't want handouts. That's not why I play the game. I want to earn every piece of gear I get, be it through BGs or through raiding. If I just wanted to run around in Naxx gear showing off my leet purplez I'd buy an eBay account.
The problem is, as you suggested, that they've taken one broken system and replaced it with another. Yes, the old ranks were just a competition to see who had the most free time, but at least they were a competition. Now it's just a free loot party, and in 3 weeks everyone who's not in a raiding guild will all be decked out in a homogenous blob of purple.
And where will we go from there? Once you have the best gear that's available for the way you play, what else is there to do? PuGging Strat and UBRS isn't going to yield anything better than rank 14 PvP weapons.
Suddenly the players who have been complaining for so long that they can't see endgame content will find that while they weren't looking they ran into it headlong. After all, in an MMO like WoW, once you can't progress any further your game has quite literally ended.
Fortunately they have it timed perfectly. The expansion will be dropping right around the time people run into that wall.
I know this comment is long and somewhat rambling, but I will bring it back around now.
The reason I'm not PvPing anymore is that I've hit the wall early. No, I don't have the best gear I can possibly get, but I'm so close that it might as well be over. The only thing that carried me along before was a spirit of competition, but that's gone now.
It's like I've been training to run a marathon for months and at mile 20 they decided to give everyone bikes. Sure I can still cross the finish line, but it will be without the real sense of accomplishment.
I know I'm unique in that I had enough free time to sink into BGs, and I don't begrudge people wanting to have access to some good gear without that committment, but it seems like they could have found some way to keep the competition alive in another way.
In the meantime, I have my raiding toon and a handful of alts to level. I'd love to go back to PvP, but for now that game is over.
I used to spend hours on end in AV, grinding honor for rank and rep. Since the patch I've done maybe 10 BGs. I've been thinking a lot about what's changed for me, and I think I have something like an idea.
Getting the best PvP gear used to be a challenge that required a time commitment similar to the other primary endgame goal: raiding. The character I PvP with is on a new server on the Horde side in a smaller, fairly casual guild. Raiding is not even on my radar over there, and that's fine by me because I have another toon I raid with several nights a week. So instead I would grind rank. Like you suggest, it's the perfect means to solo your way to some pretty decent gear.
Whenever I advanced a rank I felt like I had really earned it. You could make the argument that just spending a lot of time in BGs isn't a big accomplishment, but I never botted or cave dwelled, and always made a solid effort to contribute to my team's success.
It's not that I resent the ease with which people are now able to get the same or better gear. I enjoyed my time in the old honor system and wouldn't have changed anything I did.
The thing is I don't want handouts. That's not why I play the game. I want to earn every piece of gear I get, be it through BGs or through raiding. If I just wanted to run around in Naxx gear showing off my leet purplez I'd buy an eBay account.
The problem is, as you suggested, that they've taken one broken system and replaced it with another. Yes, the old ranks were just a competition to see who had the most free time, but at least they were a competition. Now it's just a free loot party, and in 3 weeks everyone who's not in a raiding guild will all be decked out in a homogenous blob of purple.
And where will we go from there? Once you have the best gear that's available for the way you play, what else is there to do? PuGging Strat and UBRS isn't going to yield anything better than rank 14 PvP weapons.
Suddenly the players who have been complaining for so long that they can't see endgame content will find that while they weren't looking they ran into it headlong. After all, in an MMO like WoW, once you can't progress any further your game has quite literally ended.
Fortunately they have it timed perfectly. The expansion will be dropping right around the time people run into that wall.
I know this comment is long and somewhat rambling, but I will bring it back around now.
The reason I'm not PvPing anymore is that I've hit the wall early. No, I don't have the best gear I can possibly get, but I'm so close that it might as well be over. The only thing that carried me along before was a spirit of competition, but that's gone now.
It's like I've been training to run a marathon for months and at mile 20 they decided to give everyone bikes. Sure I can still cross the finish line, but it will be without the real sense of accomplishment.
I know I'm unique in that I had enough free time to sink into BGs, and I don't begrudge people wanting to have access to some good gear without that committment, but it seems like they could have found some way to keep the competition alive in another way.
In the meantime, I have my raiding toon and a handful of alts to level. I'd love to go back to PvP, but for now that game is over.
# posted by : 10/12/06 12:12
: 10/12/06 12:12
"Just 4 more days like that and I have my epic High Warlord's blade, which is significantly better than anything I was able to get outside of a raid dungeon."
Some of the weapons are, in fact, better than what you can get from raiding. Take the healing combo of Grand Marshal's Warhammer and Grand Marshal's Tome of Restoration. Benediction isn't anywhere near as good, IMO.
But yet, like you, I will be trying for a Grand Marshal weapon that was previously out of reach. My goal is the hammer that I linked above for my Pally. Since my guild is just starting to get into BWL, I doubt that I will try for the Epic PvP gear, as the Pally Tier 2 is better, but we'll just have to see how it goes.
Some of the weapons are, in fact, better than what you can get from raiding. Take the healing combo of Grand Marshal's Warhammer and Grand Marshal's Tome of Restoration. Benediction isn't anywhere near as good, IMO.
But yet, like you, I will be trying for a Grand Marshal weapon that was previously out of reach. My goal is the hammer that I linked above for my Pally. Since my guild is just starting to get into BWL, I doubt that I will try for the Epic PvP gear, as the Pally Tier 2 is better, but we'll just have to see how it goes.
# posted by : 10/12/06 15:33
: 10/12/06 15:33
As I posted on my own blog(http://quinion.blogspot.com/2006/12/retobold-easy-epic.html)
I do not like this new system of easy hand out for people who have not worked as hard as i had to for my gear. PVP used to be a challenge, working your way up from nothing to something much more glorified. People used to stop and say, "Wow, nice gear" and i don't believe that it will be long until people come up to me saying, "Just another pvper". I liked having months of grinding for my rewards, and this system doesn't support people like me.
I do not like this new system of easy hand out for people who have not worked as hard as i had to for my gear. PVP used to be a challenge, working your way up from nothing to something much more glorified. People used to stop and say, "Wow, nice gear" and i don't believe that it will be long until people come up to me saying, "Just another pvper". I liked having months of grinding for my rewards, and this system doesn't support people like me.
# posted by : 10/12/06 16:21
: 10/12/06 16:21
Tobold single-handedly winning AB almost made me snort my morning coffee out of nose.
I think the problem with the new PvP rewards is as Tobold just said, a casual can now get the Epics in a very short period of time. Now for Tobold on the Horde side (you are Horde, right, Tobold?) he had it easy getting those AB Victory Marks because where I come from the Horde win AB almost all the time. Alliance win AV, and I don't know who regularly wins WSG because I've never stuck around long enough to see a winning game.
I think Blizzard somehow underestimated how much Honor a casual player could earn in one week...that or they want all of their customers to be decked out in Purple.
I think the problem with the new PvP rewards is as Tobold just said, a casual can now get the Epics in a very short period of time. Now for Tobold on the Horde side (you are Horde, right, Tobold?) he had it easy getting those AB Victory Marks because where I come from the Horde win AB almost all the time. Alliance win AV, and I don't know who regularly wins WSG because I've never stuck around long enough to see a winning game.
I think Blizzard somehow underestimated how much Honor a casual player could earn in one week...that or they want all of their customers to be decked out in Purple.
# posted by : 10/12/06 19:03
: 10/12/06 19:03
Well I for one am all for the new changes. Now you are actually rewarded for the actual time spent in BGs instead of just the time spent in BGs PER WEEK. I still wouldn't call it easy though, since there's still some considerable time involved.
I haven't raided MC and above in any considerable amount, but I wouldn't be surprised if the avarage time spent getting an epic in a raid is around the same amount of time it takes to get one epic now in PvP. The only real difference is that you can yourself now decide when you've got the time to be online to work towards that goal, instead of deciding if you've got the time when 39 others do. And of course you CAN spend that time in a sequence, which STILL gives the hardcore players the upper hand because they will have earned that long before any casual player has. It's just that the casual player doesn't have to invest tons of MORE time overall to get the same reward. Yeah I guess that must be awful for those that aren't casuals, imagine people that can spend the same time as you to get the same reward? Preposterous!!
To continue what I was going to write in the beginning of paragraph 2 I can just state that according to the estimated honor in the PvP tab I made about 2200 honor yesterday (Don't know how accurate that is.) in about 4 hours spent online. If that would continue I would get my weapon in about 10 days, but since I don't have 4 hours to spend online each and every day it will probably take me around twice as long if not more. By then thousands of hardcore players will most likely have made enough for that whole epic set. So what is so wrong with that I actually get a chance to earn my epic weapon in that time?
I haven't raided MC and above in any considerable amount, but I wouldn't be surprised if the avarage time spent getting an epic in a raid is around the same amount of time it takes to get one epic now in PvP. The only real difference is that you can yourself now decide when you've got the time to be online to work towards that goal, instead of deciding if you've got the time when 39 others do. And of course you CAN spend that time in a sequence, which STILL gives the hardcore players the upper hand because they will have earned that long before any casual player has. It's just that the casual player doesn't have to invest tons of MORE time overall to get the same reward. Yeah I guess that must be awful for those that aren't casuals, imagine people that can spend the same time as you to get the same reward? Preposterous!!
To continue what I was going to write in the beginning of paragraph 2 I can just state that according to the estimated honor in the PvP tab I made about 2200 honor yesterday (Don't know how accurate that is.) in about 4 hours spent online. If that would continue I would get my weapon in about 10 days, but since I don't have 4 hours to spend online each and every day it will probably take me around twice as long if not more. By then thousands of hardcore players will most likely have made enough for that whole epic set. So what is so wrong with that I actually get a chance to earn my epic weapon in that time?
# posted by : 10/12/06 20:21
: 10/12/06 20:21
'I can now get the blade in 5 days'
Only 5 days.
5 days spent playing the same 3 battle grounds again and again.
It's statements like this that really make me think 'Was I crazy for playing this? Spending 5 days playing a computer game for one item (that will become obsolete in a month's time) is considered too easy and people are bitching about it?'.
I am soooo glad I quit.
Only 5 days.
5 days spent playing the same 3 battle grounds again and again.
It's statements like this that really make me think 'Was I crazy for playing this? Spending 5 days playing a computer game for one item (that will become obsolete in a month's time) is considered too easy and people are bitching about it?'.
I am soooo glad I quit.
My sense is that the number of hours spent getting an epic in BGs is now, finally, in line with the amount of hours spent getting an epic in raids. There are two crucial differences:
* There's no artificial limiter on how often you can go to the well -- no 7 day instance timer.
* You don't have to go with 39 of your closest pals.
I think the first point is why it feels like "free epics." But I probably spend 24 hours a month on raiding -- 6 hours a week -- and I figure I get one to two epics a month depending on drops. And I bet I'll spend 10-20 hours getting my GM hammer. So, no, this doesn't feel like free epics at all. Just epics that are, at long last, acheivable by the solo player on his or her timeframe.
* There's no artificial limiter on how often you can go to the well -- no 7 day instance timer.
* You don't have to go with 39 of your closest pals.
I think the first point is why it feels like "free epics." But I probably spend 24 hours a month on raiding -- 6 hours a week -- and I figure I get one to two epics a month depending on drops. And I bet I'll spend 10-20 hours getting my GM hammer. So, no, this doesn't feel like free epics at all. Just epics that are, at long last, acheivable by the solo player on his or her timeframe.
# posted by : 10/12/06 21:41
: 10/12/06 21:41
I would say that it WOULD be wacky, if the only reason people played for 20 hours was to get that weapon. But, I think most of us who play, play because we enjoy playing. The rewards and sense of accomplishment are just bonuses if you make sure you are not doing things that are not fun in the first place. Repeatedly running the same instance with the same mobs gets boring a lot quicker then fighting different groups of players with varying tactics within the same terrain and rules set. That is why in my opinion PvP will always come out ahead. If I can now actually reach the epics while doing the PvP at a fun level along with other parts I enjoy then that system is working correctly.
# posted by : 11/12/06 02:25
: 11/12/06 02:25
Of course "easy" epics is on a relative scale. It is easier to get an epic by PvP now than from lets say doing the tier 0.5 upgrade quest line, or grinding Silithus faction, or doing raids. I never said "free" epics.
Yeah I guess that must be awful for those that aren't casuals, imagine people that can spend the same time as you to get the same reward? Preposterous!!
The difference is that it isn't the same difficulty level. Getting 40 people to play together in a coordinated way is hard. Once you learned it, and you have Molten Core on "farm" status, you earn epics as fast as by PvP. But before that you spend weeks wiping against bosses and bad trash pulls, and accumulating huge bills for repairs and potions.
In PvP you just need to keep close to the bulk of the other players to get honor points, and there are no repair bills. And dying is so painless that you rather die than use an expensive potion.
Yeah I guess that must be awful for those that aren't casuals, imagine people that can spend the same time as you to get the same reward? Preposterous!!
The difference is that it isn't the same difficulty level. Getting 40 people to play together in a coordinated way is hard. Once you learned it, and you have Molten Core on "farm" status, you earn epics as fast as by PvP. But before that you spend weeks wiping against bosses and bad trash pulls, and accumulating huge bills for repairs and potions.
In PvP you just need to keep close to the bulk of the other players to get honor points, and there are no repair bills. And dying is so painless that you rather die than use an expensive potion.
Wearing PvP gear, weapons and armor, might say to folks "This person is a casual player and did what he had to do to get decent gear." We all do what we need to do to get what we want. No shame in that.
Popping the "Centurion" title over my head means I can also show I "put my time in" earlier. Now I have the Champion shoulders and will have the Champion helm in a few days. It's involved countless hours of PvP.
Yeah, others will have full PvP gear too, but not everyone is going to be able to put a "Centurion" or better on their title.
But it's not all just PvP stuff. Why can't folks just go out and "earn" the Tier 0 stuff? That's tough to get. Can you imagine getting a full set of Valor via pugs? How ungodly long would that even take??! Some Warlock with poor English skills "needs" everything to disenchant... because he "needs" an epic mount. Too bad he beat your "need" roll and it's the last piece of your set.
The Tier 1+ gear, Earthfury, Might, Dreadnaught, etc., those still belong solely to the realm of the raider.
A Shaman in full Earthfury, with a piece or two from Onyxia or Blackwing Lair is recognizeable as being part of, at least once, a raiding guild. (I never see Shamans pvping in full Ten Storms because it's a healers set. 3 pieces of Ten Storms + 5 of Earthfury gave some nice synergy for pvp on the elemental side if I remember right.)
You're right Tobold. This is how the casual level 60 will get his hands on some rare, epic even, gear. And good for them. And thanks to Blizzard for making that available.
And not every casual is going to take up the offer. My wife is busy with her new hunter, level 19 and with a new serpent tamed in the WC, while her 58 Shaman waits in the UC to return to the plaguelands. Mad Purpz don't float every boat.
I'll collect the last of my Champion's set (rare, not epic), and then go for a High Warlord's weapon. Maybe the one-handed mace for the stun effect talent. Or the polearm and get the specialization bonus. And then I'll relax, or take some other character into the Battlegrounds and work on them. This move has certainly given this game legs.
And, besides, these "free" epics will shortly be rendered moot by Outlands loot, no? What do people care? Let the masses have fun, the good gear will always go into the hands of the most committed to getting it.
Popping the "Centurion" title over my head means I can also show I "put my time in" earlier. Now I have the Champion shoulders and will have the Champion helm in a few days. It's involved countless hours of PvP.
Yeah, others will have full PvP gear too, but not everyone is going to be able to put a "Centurion" or better on their title.
But it's not all just PvP stuff. Why can't folks just go out and "earn" the Tier 0 stuff? That's tough to get. Can you imagine getting a full set of Valor via pugs? How ungodly long would that even take??! Some Warlock with poor English skills "needs" everything to disenchant... because he "needs" an epic mount. Too bad he beat your "need" roll and it's the last piece of your set.
The Tier 1+ gear, Earthfury, Might, Dreadnaught, etc., those still belong solely to the realm of the raider.
A Shaman in full Earthfury, with a piece or two from Onyxia or Blackwing Lair is recognizeable as being part of, at least once, a raiding guild. (I never see Shamans pvping in full Ten Storms because it's a healers set. 3 pieces of Ten Storms + 5 of Earthfury gave some nice synergy for pvp on the elemental side if I remember right.)
You're right Tobold. This is how the casual level 60 will get his hands on some rare, epic even, gear. And good for them. And thanks to Blizzard for making that available.
And not every casual is going to take up the offer. My wife is busy with her new hunter, level 19 and with a new serpent tamed in the WC, while her 58 Shaman waits in the UC to return to the plaguelands. Mad Purpz don't float every boat.
I'll collect the last of my Champion's set (rare, not epic), and then go for a High Warlord's weapon. Maybe the one-handed mace for the stun effect talent. Or the polearm and get the specialization bonus. And then I'll relax, or take some other character into the Battlegrounds and work on them. This move has certainly given this game legs.
And, besides, these "free" epics will shortly be rendered moot by Outlands loot, no? What do people care? Let the masses have fun, the good gear will always go into the hands of the most committed to getting it.
# posted by : 11/12/06 08:45
: 11/12/06 08:45
I assume this will all be patched in the end but it sounds like Blizzard are using the public servers to alpha test the new PVP reward system. This is unusual for a company who used to be renowned for meticulous pre-release testing.
# posted by : 11/12/06 10:31
: 11/12/06 10:31
Oops - my last comment was supposed to be attached to the "Honor points gone crazy" post. Apologies fo any confusion.
All this hullabuloo about easy epics got me comparing the reward system in WOW with the reward system in Guild Wars. Like WOW Guild wars has hard to get rewards which require many hours of dedicated play. However in GW many of these rewards are just honorary titles that confer little or no advantage in gameplay (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Titles). This has the advantage that you don't need to get these rewards to experience all aspects of the game. Experienced and casual players still complete on roughly equal footings but the committed player has a trophy cupboard full of titles to show off. The problem with ability enhancing rewards like Wows's armour sets is that casual players get left further and further behind until eventually only a handfull of the most commmitted players ever get to see the hardest content. When Blizzard takes steps to level the playing field by making epics easier to get as in the new PVP system the committed players get annoyed because their past efforst have been devalued at a stroke. I wonder if Guild Wars system of "Vanity" rewards would work in a full blown MMORPG?
All this hullabuloo about easy epics got me comparing the reward system in WOW with the reward system in Guild Wars. Like WOW Guild wars has hard to get rewards which require many hours of dedicated play. However in GW many of these rewards are just honorary titles that confer little or no advantage in gameplay (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Titles). This has the advantage that you don't need to get these rewards to experience all aspects of the game. Experienced and casual players still complete on roughly equal footings but the committed player has a trophy cupboard full of titles to show off. The problem with ability enhancing rewards like Wows's armour sets is that casual players get left further and further behind until eventually only a handfull of the most commmitted players ever get to see the hardest content. When Blizzard takes steps to level the playing field by making epics easier to get as in the new PVP system the committed players get annoyed because their past efforst have been devalued at a stroke. I wonder if Guild Wars system of "Vanity" rewards would work in a full blown MMORPG?
# posted by : 11/12/06 10:48
: 11/12/06 10:48
The difference is that it isn't the same difficulty level. Getting 40 people to play together in a coordinated way is hard. Once you learned it, and you have Molten Core on "farm" status, you earn epics as fast as by PvP. But before that you spend weeks wiping against bosses and bad trash pulls, and accumulating huge bills for repairs and potions.
Actually the quote you used was more or less meant as a comparison between hardcore PvP'ers and casual PvP'ers. Still though I guess it applies at least in part versus raiders too.
In any case I wouldn't call it HARD. It's still basically just a matter of time invested. After a certain time (longer for some, shorter for some) that farm status will be there and then the epics will just roll in. It's just a matter of perseverance, but that's still the same with PvP. Some just don't like PvP'ing so they will at least have a choice to raid instead.
While the repair bills might be huge for raids the cost for PvP'ing usually isn't zero. There is still a slight repair cost for damaged gear. Some classes also have some added costs, for example rogues poisons aren't very cheap in extended PvP (Although a bit cheaper this patch since they don't disappear on zoning.). I don't have full insight into every class costs in PvP, but I guess most have at least some costs. I know I used to spend tons of money on my warlock while I still played it on food and water. In raids that's usually free from the mages. Some may be able to get it for free in PvP too, but I doubt that's very wide spread. Even if you aren't a spellcaster you still use food and bandages at least now and then.
Also, at least before, actually getting that epic PvP item also costs money. I can't remember at the moment if it's only honor you pay in this new patch or if there's a monetary cost also.
Actually the quote you used was more or less meant as a comparison between hardcore PvP'ers and casual PvP'ers. Still though I guess it applies at least in part versus raiders too.
In any case I wouldn't call it HARD. It's still basically just a matter of time invested. After a certain time (longer for some, shorter for some) that farm status will be there and then the epics will just roll in. It's just a matter of perseverance, but that's still the same with PvP. Some just don't like PvP'ing so they will at least have a choice to raid instead.
While the repair bills might be huge for raids the cost for PvP'ing usually isn't zero. There is still a slight repair cost for damaged gear. Some classes also have some added costs, for example rogues poisons aren't very cheap in extended PvP (Although a bit cheaper this patch since they don't disappear on zoning.). I don't have full insight into every class costs in PvP, but I guess most have at least some costs. I know I used to spend tons of money on my warlock while I still played it on food and water. In raids that's usually free from the mages. Some may be able to get it for free in PvP too, but I doubt that's very wide spread. Even if you aren't a spellcaster you still use food and bandages at least now and then.
Also, at least before, actually getting that epic PvP item also costs money. I can't remember at the moment if it's only honor you pay in this new patch or if there's a monetary cost also.
# posted by : 11/12/06 11:55
: 11/12/06 11:55
Blah... easier epics is exactly what people have wanted for months. Don't act surprised now that Blizzard has given them out.
Finally people get rewarded for PvPing a little bit each day. Sure the hardcore grinders will get all there is to get in a week and be done with it, but that isn't why the changes were implemented. They were made for the average person that doesn't play more than 5 hours a week and was sick and tired of watching all their PvP effort for a week get drained on Tuesday morning.
PvP was dieing and becoming a washed up mess of a system. Blizzard had to fix it and that starts by getting gear in the hands of the "working class" of WoW. Raiders may bitch about it, but they'll still be raiding BWL, Naxx, etc. Most PvP gear doesn't help raiders and if it does then they should thank Blizzard for helping their cause.
But that is not how the WoW community acts. Everyone feels threatened whenever someone gets a reward that they didn't spend as much time on as they did. Everyone gets pissed off when Joe Blow walks into a 40 man dungeon for the first time and wins a DKP roll on a rare drop.
The uber PvP groups will be done owning the current battlegrounds when the Arena System is fully fleshed out and TBC allows everyone to get to 70.
Everyone needs to step back and realize WoW is in a growth spurt and is slowly adjusting to its new body. Until TBC is released these gaps in what is perceived as the status quo will exist. Get used to it... it's called change and its a static element of MMORPGs.
I hate change as much as the next guy, but I have started learning to except it. If in the end these changes are for the worse then I will have to put another game on my "not playing" list.
Finally people get rewarded for PvPing a little bit each day. Sure the hardcore grinders will get all there is to get in a week and be done with it, but that isn't why the changes were implemented. They were made for the average person that doesn't play more than 5 hours a week and was sick and tired of watching all their PvP effort for a week get drained on Tuesday morning.
PvP was dieing and becoming a washed up mess of a system. Blizzard had to fix it and that starts by getting gear in the hands of the "working class" of WoW. Raiders may bitch about it, but they'll still be raiding BWL, Naxx, etc. Most PvP gear doesn't help raiders and if it does then they should thank Blizzard for helping their cause.
But that is not how the WoW community acts. Everyone feels threatened whenever someone gets a reward that they didn't spend as much time on as they did. Everyone gets pissed off when Joe Blow walks into a 40 man dungeon for the first time and wins a DKP roll on a rare drop.
The uber PvP groups will be done owning the current battlegrounds when the Arena System is fully fleshed out and TBC allows everyone to get to 70.
Everyone needs to step back and realize WoW is in a growth spurt and is slowly adjusting to its new body. Until TBC is released these gaps in what is perceived as the status quo will exist. Get used to it... it's called change and its a static element of MMORPGs.
I hate change as much as the next guy, but I have started learning to except it. If in the end these changes are for the worse then I will have to put another game on my "not playing" list.
# posted by : 11/12/06 14:39
: 11/12/06 14:39
I was not a supporter of the old pvp system. As someone who admits to raiding way more than I should have, I can say WoW enables those who cannot self regulate. If there was no timer on raid instances, there was a time I had no doubt I would be in there night after night. If you had to pvp 24 hours a day 7 days a week for months, although it wasn't healthy or smart, people did it.
The Burning Crusade will offer items on par with raiding drops. No more raiding non-stop for months. And now with pvp players don't have to play non-stop for long periods of time to get their weapons.
I'm sure there will be problems we can't foresee with the new systems, but as for right now they seem like positive changes.
The Burning Crusade will offer items on par with raiding drops. No more raiding non-stop for months. And now with pvp players don't have to play non-stop for long periods of time to get their weapons.
I'm sure there will be problems we can't foresee with the new systems, but as for right now they seem like positive changes.
I think you've forgotten about one group of people that have also embraced the new PvP system: end-game raiders.
Yep, that's right. My guild has been in the BG's every night since the patch, even forming groups after our normal 4hr raids. If you want to do anything beyond your teir 1/2/3 limitations once the expansion comes out, then the BG's are the only place to go.
Even though we have warlords and high warlords in our guild from the old system, this finally lets the bulk of our members explore other play styles. Traditional raid healer classes are picking up dps gear for leveling to 70, for example. They're just better items and easier to get than the non-set items that drop in instances.
The funny thing is, our high-ranked PvP'ers are in there running the BG's with everyone else... hehe
-Mart
Yep, that's right. My guild has been in the BG's every night since the patch, even forming groups after our normal 4hr raids. If you want to do anything beyond your teir 1/2/3 limitations once the expansion comes out, then the BG's are the only place to go.
Even though we have warlords and high warlords in our guild from the old system, this finally lets the bulk of our members explore other play styles. Traditional raid healer classes are picking up dps gear for leveling to 70, for example. They're just better items and easier to get than the non-set items that drop in instances.
The funny thing is, our high-ranked PvP'ers are in there running the BG's with everyone else... hehe
-Mart
# posted by : 11/12/06 15:36
: 11/12/06 15:36
It's amazing how fast you can get stuff on the new system though. One hunter in my guild has 6/8 HW gear already. Many others have a few pieces.
I may be foolish for leveling up an alt instead of getting the free epics via pvp, but I really don't want to be grinding out 55 while everyone else is in BC...
I may be foolish for leveling up an alt instead of getting the free epics via pvp, but I really don't want to be grinding out 55 while everyone else is in BC...
# posted by : 11/12/06 15:41
: 11/12/06 15:41
For me, Ben nailed it. That is exactly why I had to lay off PvP and take on the (probably useless) *challenge* of grinding Argent Dawn rep while working toward gold for epic mount training. And another serious PvP-er I know well is also very disappointed with post-patch PvP. As far as I'm concerned, PvP has been reduced to "just another grind" for the time being. Quite disappointing.
I would call into question whether it was wise for Blizz to pull casuals en-masse into, of all places, the PvP battlegrounds. Hmm...
Don't get me wrong - I *will* go and grind out my epics, and soon - easy epics can't last forever, can they? It would just be colossally stupid for an avid PvP-er not to But I will say that it may be, um, "less bearable" for a serious pre-patch PvP-er to tolerate the grind than someone who hadn't experienced pre-patch PvP. Or maybe not - I'm guessing that the toons that run when my warrior starts ripping them to pieces are the noobs...? (Almost never had to chase down runners in PvP pre-patch.)
But I will *not* display a PvP title - not now, not yet. Those "glory days" are gone, and "Blood Guard" will seem (pardon my bluntness) quite ridiculous when a growing percentage of the level-60 population is running around in epic Warlord / Marshal shoulders.
I would call into question whether it was wise for Blizz to pull casuals en-masse into, of all places, the PvP battlegrounds. Hmm...
Don't get me wrong - I *will* go and grind out my epics, and soon - easy epics can't last forever, can they? It would just be colossally stupid for an avid PvP-er not to But I will say that it may be, um, "less bearable" for a serious pre-patch PvP-er to tolerate the grind than someone who hadn't experienced pre-patch PvP. Or maybe not - I'm guessing that the toons that run when my warrior starts ripping them to pieces are the noobs...? (Almost never had to chase down runners in PvP pre-patch.)
But I will *not* display a PvP title - not now, not yet. Those "glory days" are gone, and "Blood Guard" will seem (pardon my bluntness) quite ridiculous when a growing percentage of the level-60 population is running around in epic Warlord / Marshal shoulders.
Dont forget this is tuned for a level 70 world. Of course the level 60 epics are going to be easy. But the time:reward ratio is pretty much equal with raiding. Its just more solo friendly. And its also pvp oriented gear at around the tier 2 mark. It doesnt provide the kind of stats needed to progress( dps classes excepted).
So when we get level 70, you can pvp or raid. If you pvp, you will get what I assume will be tier 5 equivalent pvp gear. But there will be better sets available for the raiders. Tier 5 might actually take less time than pvp gear, since its token based ( no wasted drops) and the raids are capped at 25 people.
I dont see it as easy epics, just a way for the casual player to stay competitive, even if just barely.
So when we get level 70, you can pvp or raid. If you pvp, you will get what I assume will be tier 5 equivalent pvp gear. But there will be better sets available for the raiders. Tier 5 might actually take less time than pvp gear, since its token based ( no wasted drops) and the raids are capped at 25 people.
I dont see it as easy epics, just a way for the casual player to stay competitive, even if just barely.
# posted by : 11/12/06 16:07
: 11/12/06 16:07
Knowing that all level 60 epics will become worthless in 5 weeks, handing out lots of them as a sort of christmas present at first glance seems like a good strategy. While epics aren't needed to stay competitive in a BC environment, it sure feels better to have gotten a couple of them.
I am just not convinced that this move will really end up making people more happy with World of Warcraft. Over the weekend I met a lot more people unhappy with the battleground server issues than happy with the rewards. And mudflation is a slippery slope, with people expecting more and more handouts with every patch, while those who got the items "the hard way" feel cheated. I'm not sure at level 70 players will be as ready to try any sort of laborous achievement as they were at 60. WoW 2.0 and the Burning Crusade might be teaching the wrong sort of lesson here.
I am just not convinced that this move will really end up making people more happy with World of Warcraft. Over the weekend I met a lot more people unhappy with the battleground server issues than happy with the rewards. And mudflation is a slippery slope, with people expecting more and more handouts with every patch, while those who got the items "the hard way" feel cheated. I'm not sure at level 70 players will be as ready to try any sort of laborous achievement as they were at 60. WoW 2.0 and the Burning Crusade might be teaching the wrong sort of lesson here.
Is 10-20 hours too little for a single epic from PvP? Consider that many whole single player games (costing about $50 each) have a duration in that same range.
So if you look at it like "hmmm - I can start and finish a game like Prey or HL2, or I can get 1 epic in WoW", it kind of puts it in perspective for me.
Getting 1 epic in the BGs still takes as about as long as totally completing some pretty good single player games!
So if you look at it like "hmmm - I can start and finish a game like Prey or HL2, or I can get 1 epic in WoW", it kind of puts it in perspective for me.
Getting 1 epic in the BGs still takes as about as long as totally completing some pretty good single player games!
# posted by : 15/12/06 19:25
: 15/12/06 19:25
I hate the new PvP system. I am an old school PvP'er [Rank 10] and yes I do feel cheated. I think Blizzard has lost interest with the old PvP'ers who grided their butt off to get the pvp gear they deserve. And to see a new level 60 have a GM sword and the GM set after 2 weeks brings a frown to my face. It totally feels like the whole time I was grinding as an old PvP'er for weeks maybe even months was a COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME.
# posted by : 18/12/06 12:28
: 18/12/06 12:28
while it sux for some people that did "waste" their time grinding their pvp gear, there are some people for whom it is impossible to get epic gear and the new system changes that.
For some, there just isnt enough time to play like many players do, multiple hours per day. Personally, I view people who play that often as a waste of life, but to get back to my point, I believe that blizzard as perfectly justified to make this game as enjoyable as possible for the casual player, which according to blizzard's website, make up 87% of the subscribers.
As yo umay well know, wow is a business designed to make money. If the new pvp system makes 87% of the consumers more happy, then guess what, blizzard is gonna do it because it earns them more money.
By the way, to the last person who posted, if yo uthink that what yo udid was a waste of time, then yo ushoiuld consider stopping your playing of wow. if you cant find enjoyment out of the time you invested in this game (probably too much) then why do you play. At this point I still find enjoyment in th egame, but th emoment that the game becomes a burden and something that is a soure of anything but pleasure will be the moment that I choose a new game.
Myt last point is this, there are manyu people who have decided that playing wow is more important than other social interactoins such as as real friends, school, etc; it is to these people that I ask this question. When you stop playing wow, will you regret the vast number of hours you have wasted on this game? Will you regret all the wasted moments that you could have spent doing something worthwhile (homework, real work, family time, social life, etc.)?
While I admit that I do play this game, I limit myself to 2.5 hours per week. I do this only because I know the pain and the sense of regret that I have felt upon immersing myself too deeply into an mmorpg and would not wish that feeling on anyone else.
For some, there just isnt enough time to play like many players do, multiple hours per day. Personally, I view people who play that often as a waste of life, but to get back to my point, I believe that blizzard as perfectly justified to make this game as enjoyable as possible for the casual player, which according to blizzard's website, make up 87% of the subscribers.
As yo umay well know, wow is a business designed to make money. If the new pvp system makes 87% of the consumers more happy, then guess what, blizzard is gonna do it because it earns them more money.
By the way, to the last person who posted, if yo uthink that what yo udid was a waste of time, then yo ushoiuld consider stopping your playing of wow. if you cant find enjoyment out of the time you invested in this game (probably too much) then why do you play. At this point I still find enjoyment in th egame, but th emoment that the game becomes a burden and something that is a soure of anything but pleasure will be the moment that I choose a new game.
Myt last point is this, there are manyu people who have decided that playing wow is more important than other social interactoins such as as real friends, school, etc; it is to these people that I ask this question. When you stop playing wow, will you regret the vast number of hours you have wasted on this game? Will you regret all the wasted moments that you could have spent doing something worthwhile (homework, real work, family time, social life, etc.)?
While I admit that I do play this game, I limit myself to 2.5 hours per week. I do this only because I know the pain and the sense of regret that I have felt upon immersing myself too deeply into an mmorpg and would not wish that feeling on anyone else.
# posted by : 19/12/06 15:25
: 19/12/06 15:25
I feel that this new system is just ment so that people can get geared up for Outland. If you are a 60 in all greens and you do pvp before BC, then you can actually live when you go to outland, the pvp gear will be like the standard.
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# posted by : 23/12/06 01:17
: 23/12/06 01:17<< Home
