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Thursday, March 29, 2007
World of Warcraft quest series
Great fun yesterday, I finished the Hero of the Mag'har quest series. Not only does that give you some unique insight into the history of the orcs, but you also get two blue items as reward. In this case I was lucky, because everybody gets a necklace that is only useful for melee dps, which is nice enough for my warrior with whom I did the quest, but would have been useless for my priest. The second blue item is leggings, and there you get a choice of cloth, leather, mail, and plate, so there is something for everyone. The plate legs are really good for my warrior.
Now finishing this quest series isn't easy. You don't even get to start the quest before you haven't finished all the other Mag'har quests. Then you have to do a long series of solo quests, and then you need a group to kill the last boss in the Auchindoun crypts, and then at least one partner to kill 15 elite mobs in Nagrand.
I noticed that in World of Warcraft quest series often start with lots of solo quests, and end with some group quests. And I can see both advantages and disadvantages in that. The disadvantage is that if you follow a quest line and come to a group quest, you might get stuck there for some time, unable to find a group to help you to continue the quest. That makes for an ugly break in the story telling. You'll frequently find people complaining that their quest journal is full of elite quests. With Blizzard having repeatedly dropped the ball on their LFG functionality, finding a group outside your guild is as hard as never, with no more global LFG chat channel, and a shitty LFG interface nobody uses.
The advantage of quest series ending in group quests is that it encourages people to join with strangers into groups, and make new friends. After all, this is not a single-player game, even if there are lots of people playing it like one. As the final quest of a series usually gives a blue item, they provide a strong pull to overcome the reluctance to group.
So what do you think? Is encouraging people to group by putting elite quests at the end of quest series a good thing? Or is all "forced grouping" a bad thing?
- posted by Tobold @ 8:49 AM Permanent Link
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"and a shitty LFG interface nobody uses."
It wasn't that long ago you were telling us we shouldn't immediately damn the new LFG until we had tried it. I think you had positive experiences in the BC beta ? (appols if am confusing the LFG supporter here).
What has changed your mind ?
It wasn't that long ago you were telling us we shouldn't immediately damn the new LFG until we had tried it. I think you had positive experiences in the BC beta ? (appols if am confusing the LFG supporter here).
What has changed your mind ?
# posted by 
: 29/3/07 10:15
: 29/3/07 10:15
IMHO, the main problem with the LFG interface is that you can LFG for only 3 things at a time. While this might be barely enough for instances, it's woefully inadequate for quests. Most of the time you don't really want to do a specific quest, and would be willing to settle for a group to do any of them. The LFG system forces you to pick 3. If you didn't pick the most popular quests, you won't get a group.
Well, I did try it, and now I'm damning it. :)
I think what kills it is the automatic grouping. Nobody wants to be automatically put into a group based on some AI choice. Thus people don't flag themselves in the LFG interface, thus it's always empty and useless.
I think what kills it is the automatic grouping. Nobody wants to be automatically put into a group based on some AI choice. Thus people don't flag themselves in the LFG interface, thus it's always empty and useless.
I was doing part of this chain earlier this week, and was very amused when the greatmother in Garadar told me to go and speak to Thrall in Oggrimar when Thrall was in fact sitting right next to her. He wouldn't talk though, even when I tried poking him, so I still had to go all the way to Oggrimar to talk to him. Don't think the designers had thought of that one!
# posted by : 29/3/07 12:28
: 29/3/07 12:28
I have recently started several of the big quest series in Shadowmoon Valley. I enjoyed them quite a bit, but now the group quests are in my log. I forgot the beginnings of the story of some already and the conclusion will have to wait for a good day ... I plan on doing them with a guild group as I know a few others are stuck on the same quests.
On the other hand the rewards are really worth it. I wish it would tell me in the beginning that I am starting a questline that will end in a 5-man-group quest. For then I might just do this differently. Those questlines are a lot of fun as a little event where you start it with a group of people together so we're all on the same chain for the time we play together. It works remarkably well and is a lot of fun to do the complete series together and after a couple of hours of questing not only have a complete story arc but also a nice reward and a happy group. I've done this for one quest series so far and it was much better than doing the first part solo and then lfg-ing forever for the final quest.
If only the starting points of these quests were marked so one could just save them for later ...
On the other hand the rewards are really worth it. I wish it would tell me in the beginning that I am starting a questline that will end in a 5-man-group quest. For then I might just do this differently. Those questlines are a lot of fun as a little event where you start it with a group of people together so we're all on the same chain for the time we play together. It works remarkably well and is a lot of fun to do the complete series together and after a couple of hours of questing not only have a complete story arc but also a nice reward and a happy group. I've done this for one quest series so far and it was much better than doing the first part solo and then lfg-ing forever for the final quest.
If only the starting points of these quests were marked so one could just save them for later ...
It would be nice to get some kind of class option added to LFG. Right now it's just a random, whoever wants to go, system that leads to unwanted classes getting booted from the grp over and over.
While added a class option won't fix all the problems with the LFG system, it would be a start in the right direction.
While added a class option won't fix all the problems with the LFG system, it would be a start in the right direction.
# posted by : 29/3/07 12:50
: 29/3/07 12:50
I'm a casual player - I prefer to play solo (working hard at getting "exalted" with "the wife" faction so not much time to wait around and get groups).
To me it's a pain when quest chains end with a group quest. You do this very long chain (in some cases), you feel like you are achieving something heroic (isn't that the spirit of this game anyway) and then at the last minute, you are forced to call for help - for me it's basically negating all the hard work you've just done...
I know some classes won't have any problems with solong elite/group quests (warlock/shadowpriest/druids/shaman), but I'm a warrior, and right now, at 70, I have a log full of group quests I can't find people to do with (because of the lfg tool debacle)
Another thing that annoys me is that they haven't got a distinction between Elite and group quests.
Sometime you get group quest with a normal mob (usually with adds to make it harder) - these I can solo, since I have enough DPS and life to mow them down - but sometime, you get there and you find out you have to kill a mob with 25k life...
It can be a real nasty surprise: take the skywing escort in Terrokar for example - it would be challenging but do-able solo, except an elite spawns at the end, making it really hard to finish, especially since you are not expecting it. Compare it to escorting the pilgrim out of the arrakoa camp in HFP, where there are no elite mobs, just lots of them...both are marked "group" but one of them is much much harder than the other one (ignoring the quest levels of course) - it can be really frustrating...
Anyway - rant over - :-)
To me it's a pain when quest chains end with a group quest. You do this very long chain (in some cases), you feel like you are achieving something heroic (isn't that the spirit of this game anyway) and then at the last minute, you are forced to call for help - for me it's basically negating all the hard work you've just done...
I know some classes won't have any problems with solong elite/group quests (warlock/shadowpriest/druids/shaman), but I'm a warrior, and right now, at 70, I have a log full of group quests I can't find people to do with (because of the lfg tool debacle)
Another thing that annoys me is that they haven't got a distinction between Elite and group quests.
Sometime you get group quest with a normal mob (usually with adds to make it harder) - these I can solo, since I have enough DPS and life to mow them down - but sometime, you get there and you find out you have to kill a mob with 25k life...
It can be a real nasty surprise: take the skywing escort in Terrokar for example - it would be challenging but do-able solo, except an elite spawns at the end, making it really hard to finish, especially since you are not expecting it. Compare it to escorting the pilgrim out of the arrakoa camp in HFP, where there are no elite mobs, just lots of them...both are marked "group" but one of them is much much harder than the other one (ignoring the quest levels of course) - it can be really frustrating...
Anyway - rant over - :-)
# posted by : 29/3/07 13:43
: 29/3/07 13:43
I've used the LFG tool with great success, but only forming dungeon groups. (Uncheck auto-join!!!)
However, asking in general chat in the zone of the quest usually resulted in some success - I've managed to complete every level 70 group quest except one, and most of the lower level ones as well.
I'm still a fan of the LFG tool. Sure it needs improved, but flagging yourself LFG in it certainly wouldn't hurt.
However, asking in general chat in the zone of the quest usually resulted in some success - I've managed to complete every level 70 group quest except one, and most of the lower level ones as well.
I'm still a fan of the LFG tool. Sure it needs improved, but flagging yourself LFG in it certainly wouldn't hurt.
The group quests were much easier around release, as everyone was doign them. Still, as my characters meander the zones I skipped in leveling, I'm not finding it too difficult to get partners to do the elite quests with. And this is on a horde char, with showing only 8k horde (to 21k alliance) population.
I just replaced the cloth reward this weekend with the reward from the final Rexxar series in Blade's Edge. This series is somewhat hidden - you have to run back and forth from his dad to him, who is in another village, and then after you finish all of his dad's quests this one opens up. I stumbled upon it by chance. The reward was 15 less damage/healing, but it had 17 spirit - a stat nigh impossible to find in BC on good items. A quick shuffle of recent quest items caused me to only lose 5 damage and gain int/sta, so it all worked out.
I just replaced the cloth reward this weekend with the reward from the final Rexxar series in Blade's Edge. This series is somewhat hidden - you have to run back and forth from his dad to him, who is in another village, and then after you finish all of his dad's quests this one opens up. I stumbled upon it by chance. The reward was 15 less damage/healing, but it had 17 spirit - a stat nigh impossible to find in BC on good items. A quick shuffle of recent quest items caused me to only lose 5 damage and gain int/sta, so it all worked out.
# posted by : 29/3/07 15:46
: 29/3/07 15:46
Tobold -- Grats on completing a tough, but fulfilling quest chain! I'm really looking forward to completing that one. All I have left in Nagrand is the Forge Camp series, and then I should be eligible for the Greatmother chain.
I have mixed feelings here about grouping. But I'm willing to accept it since Blizz gave me so very many quests! Level 68, and yet to step in an Outlands instance...
When I run solo, seeing Group # in the quest log is a bit of a downer. I will often break down and check Group quests in Thottbot to see if it can be soloed. I typically try it either way, and more often than not I end up running for my life! But one thing that's nice is that most of the Group quests in Outland have usable blue rewards.
I also have a great benefit in that I have a couple of RL people I can call upon for group quests, and so far we've had no problem defeating the Group 2 and Group 3 quests with just two of us. Now I did have to help my mage buddy level up a bit, but that's what teamwork is about, right?
Now Group 5 (or instance) quests are another matter. The Durn quest required trying for two days to get a group. The first day taught me that no, you cannot take down Durn with a 3 or 4 man PUG! The second day, though, I took him down as a part of a well-rounded 5-man PUG. Still need a PUG for Ring of Blood though. Yet that is part of the challenge of a MMO. Teamwork and organization are both necessary and rewarded.
After all, if I never needed to group, then I may as well be playing D2 with an AIM window on the side!
I have mixed feelings here about grouping. But I'm willing to accept it since Blizz gave me so very many quests! Level 68, and yet to step in an Outlands instance...
When I run solo, seeing Group # in the quest log is a bit of a downer. I will often break down and check Group quests in Thottbot to see if it can be soloed. I typically try it either way, and more often than not I end up running for my life! But one thing that's nice is that most of the Group quests in Outland have usable blue rewards.
I also have a great benefit in that I have a couple of RL people I can call upon for group quests, and so far we've had no problem defeating the Group 2 and Group 3 quests with just two of us. Now I did have to help my mage buddy level up a bit, but that's what teamwork is about, right?
Now Group 5 (or instance) quests are another matter. The Durn quest required trying for two days to get a group. The first day taught me that no, you cannot take down Durn with a 3 or 4 man PUG! The second day, though, I took him down as a part of a well-rounded 5-man PUG. Still need a PUG for Ring of Blood though. Yet that is part of the challenge of a MMO. Teamwork and organization are both necessary and rewarded.
After all, if I never needed to group, then I may as well be playing D2 with an AIM window on the side!
I still fail to understand why people don't merely turn off the automatic grouping and use it. It's just a checkbox at the top.
do that and it becomes a great tool - if enough other people use it.
I would like to see:
1. a comment for each item you want to join, not just one comment
2. more than 3 signups at a time
Also what cloth pants are you referring to? I got cloth horns, horns of the mag'har hero. When I was shadow I could solo group quests as long as they said 3 or less people needed. Now I can no longer :(
do that and it becomes a great tool - if enough other people use it.
I would like to see:
1. a comment for each item you want to join, not just one comment
2. more than 3 signups at a time
Also what cloth pants are you referring to? I got cloth horns, horns of the mag'har hero. When I was shadow I could solo group quests as long as they said 3 or less people needed. Now I can no longer :(
# posted by : 29/3/07 16:09
: 29/3/07 16:09
I hate the LFG utility. If you use the auto-add you will get people into your group faster, but you can access the LFG 2 levels prior to being the proper level for a dungeon. Meaning w/ auto add on you will get a lot of people whom aren't prime canididates for a group member. Also if you are still in need of a tank(which 90% of my groups have the last spot open for a tank) you will end up with either a warrior/druid or pally....any spec, so yes you could have a resto druid with 1000+ heal gear tanking for you.
I feel really bitter against blizzards choice on grouping utilities. The best option you have now is to goto a major city and LFG. Have one guy in your group LFG outside of the instance. If you are looking for a quest just LFG in the quests area. This is the same as it was before the LFG channel. Its a huge waste of time and most groups disband before starting because you can't find a full group.
I know blizzard is bring the LFG channel back. It will be a world channel but it will only be active if you have the LFG utility going. This is so gay. Why not just make an easy to use toggle for access to the channel. I know blizzard is concerned because the LFG channel was so abused with chuck norris facts and murlock jokes, but who cares...I enjoyed most of the dumb comments on my LFG. Blizzard should bring the channel back in full, have it defaulted to "on" so everyone can see your LFG. They should allow only one post per player, per minute, to avoid spam. Also include a toggle for it to be turned off.
I feel really bitter against blizzards choice on grouping utilities. The best option you have now is to goto a major city and LFG. Have one guy in your group LFG outside of the instance. If you are looking for a quest just LFG in the quests area. This is the same as it was before the LFG channel. Its a huge waste of time and most groups disband before starting because you can't find a full group.
I know blizzard is bring the LFG channel back. It will be a world channel but it will only be active if you have the LFG utility going. This is so gay. Why not just make an easy to use toggle for access to the channel. I know blizzard is concerned because the LFG channel was so abused with chuck norris facts and murlock jokes, but who cares...I enjoyed most of the dumb comments on my LFG. Blizzard should bring the channel back in full, have it defaulted to "on" so everyone can see your LFG. They should allow only one post per player, per minute, to avoid spam. Also include a toggle for it to be turned off.
/join lookingforgroup...
I had no issues with the LFG. Even with the random jokes and whatnot. Oftentimes while grinding I would just leave it on for something entertaining to read. I don't see why they needed to get rid of it. If you ever have issues with someone just put them on Ignore.
Side note - Tobold thanks for the entertaining often updated blog. It's one of my few connections with WoW while I'm in Iraq.
I had no issues with the LFG. Even with the random jokes and whatnot. Oftentimes while grinding I would just leave it on for something entertaining to read. I don't see why they needed to get rid of it. If you ever have issues with someone just put them on Ignore.
Side note - Tobold thanks for the entertaining often updated blog. It's one of my few connections with WoW while I'm in Iraq.
# posted by : 29/3/07 19:38
: 29/3/07 19:38
As others have mentioned, the current tool is actually very good if you uncheck the auto join feature. Does it need a few smaller tweaks? Yeah, but right now the only true shortcoming for it is the fact that not enough people are using it.
Bringing back the LFG channel and requiring you be using the tool to speak in it is a fantastic idea. They're trying to find ways to push people into using the tool (again, it's lack of use is it's current only glaring weakness). The global LFG channel was a trainwreck, whether it bothered a handful of you or not. It couldn't be used for it's intended use (ever actually try fitting in a legit request to fill a party spot in between Chuck Norris spam?) and now they're putting in 1 step which will hopefully keep the idiots from using it as their personal soapbox while at the same time encouraging more players to use the LFG tool.
Bringing back the LFG channel and requiring you be using the tool to speak in it is a fantastic idea. They're trying to find ways to push people into using the tool (again, it's lack of use is it's current only glaring weakness). The global LFG channel was a trainwreck, whether it bothered a handful of you or not. It couldn't be used for it's intended use (ever actually try fitting in a legit request to fill a party spot in between Chuck Norris spam?) and now they're putting in 1 step which will hopefully keep the idiots from using it as their personal soapbox while at the same time encouraging more players to use the LFG tool.
I think ALL quests should be 50% solo and 50% group. Maybe then I wouldn't run into 4 BRD groups full of noobs in a row.
The fact that you can coast thru WOW without ever grouping pisses me off because even at level 70, I have run into people who don't know how to use their class. I feel like WOW is the welfare MMO because players aren't held accountable for their screwups (no death penalty) and they can hit the level cap grinding one mob after another until 70. Bad Deal..
Perhaps it would be nice if Blizz allowed players to level solo to say 40, and then every quest from that point on became group or stop playing. Now Blizz would never do that because they love the cash cow their carebear MMO has become and the noobs love it too, but something has to be done to thin out the players who have absolutely no clue how to properly run an instance. Maybe a class training quest chain would help, but who knows.
The fact that you can coast thru WOW without ever grouping pisses me off because even at level 70, I have run into people who don't know how to use their class. I feel like WOW is the welfare MMO because players aren't held accountable for their screwups (no death penalty) and they can hit the level cap grinding one mob after another until 70. Bad Deal..
Perhaps it would be nice if Blizz allowed players to level solo to say 40, and then every quest from that point on became group or stop playing. Now Blizz would never do that because they love the cash cow their carebear MMO has become and the noobs love it too, but something has to be done to thin out the players who have absolutely no clue how to properly run an instance. Maybe a class training quest chain would help, but who knows.
# posted by : 30/3/07 00:23
: 30/3/07 00:23
@Anonymous poster above:
Some of us "carebears" have families and other commitments that means we only get to play for an hour here or an hour there, so being forced to find a group to do ANYTHING after level 40 would make the game unplayable due to the time needed to actually find a group of people at the same level with the same quests (and what happens if you are on an old server where most of the population is already 70, new players and/or Alts just don't get to level past 40 huh?).
Go play vanguard and leave us "carebears" alone.
Some of us "carebears" have families and other commitments that means we only get to play for an hour here or an hour there, so being forced to find a group to do ANYTHING after level 40 would make the game unplayable due to the time needed to actually find a group of people at the same level with the same quests (and what happens if you are on an old server where most of the population is already 70, new players and/or Alts just don't get to level past 40 huh?).
Go play vanguard and leave us "carebears" alone.
# posted by : 30/3/07 03:01
: 30/3/07 03:01
While I'm down on WoW lately, I think they did a good job balancing solo and group content in the original game and in BC. You usually do better in a group, but you have the option to solo if you want or if you can't group due to time constraints, communication issues, etc.
I think it's a good idea to have quests that start solo and then end in groups, especially if there's two big rewards: one at the end of the solo chain and one at the end of the group mission(s). These encourage grouping, but they don't require it unless you really want a particular quest reward. They can be a pain to complete, but I only had a few group quests left (mostly in Netherstorm--it seemed easier to get groups in Shadowmoon for some reason).
WoW prevents solo players from upgrading their gear past a certain point, and I'd personally prefer better Battleground rewards (since you can earn those slowly and inefficiently solo) to cater to the pure soloers. But overall, I don't think it's a bad system.
I also had better experience with the LFG tool in the BC beta. I think it's mainly because of the pool of available players. I found myself grouping with lots of hard-core players in the beta who knew how to play their class. And since most players on the beta servers were separated from their regular communities, it seemed more likely that good players would resort to the LFG tool instead of guild chat or private LFG channels.
Like many other elements of BC, the new LFG tool has the (intentional?) effect of sorting good and bad players. Many good players don't need the tool because they have other resources. So the proportion of bad players in LFG is higher and it quickly gets a bad reputation to the point that only the truly desperate use it, which only adds to it's terrible reputation...
I think it's a good idea to have quests that start solo and then end in groups, especially if there's two big rewards: one at the end of the solo chain and one at the end of the group mission(s). These encourage grouping, but they don't require it unless you really want a particular quest reward. They can be a pain to complete, but I only had a few group quests left (mostly in Netherstorm--it seemed easier to get groups in Shadowmoon for some reason).
WoW prevents solo players from upgrading their gear past a certain point, and I'd personally prefer better Battleground rewards (since you can earn those slowly and inefficiently solo) to cater to the pure soloers. But overall, I don't think it's a bad system.
I also had better experience with the LFG tool in the BC beta. I think it's mainly because of the pool of available players. I found myself grouping with lots of hard-core players in the beta who knew how to play their class. And since most players on the beta servers were separated from their regular communities, it seemed more likely that good players would resort to the LFG tool instead of guild chat or private LFG channels.
Like many other elements of BC, the new LFG tool has the (intentional?) effect of sorting good and bad players. Many good players don't need the tool because they have other resources. So the proportion of bad players in LFG is higher and it quickly gets a bad reputation to the point that only the truly desperate use it, which only adds to it's terrible reputation...
Im level 70. I would like to go back to Hellfire Ramparts and Blood Furnace to get my Hellfire Pen rep up. Only thing is, I can no longer use the LFG tool to look for a group, because I am too high level.
I do not want to hang around in HFP on the odd chance that someone is going to be asking for a group in General Chat.
Why can't I use LFG to find a group? This level restriction bar is really stupid.
I do not want to hang around in HFP on the odd chance that someone is going to be asking for a group in General Chat.
Why can't I use LFG to find a group? This level restriction bar is really stupid.
# posted by : 2/4/07 11:32
: 2/4/07 11:32
Because if you are a 70+ and can't solo in Hellfire, you are so clueless nobody wants you to join their lower level Hellfire group and wreck the XP in exchange for your questionable contribution to the party.
I think the problem with the LFG utility is that Blizzard doesn't do enough to force people to use it. 90% of players are too stupid to fiqure it out, ever. Everyone should be forced into LFG for every quest by default. If people want to opt for solo play that should be possible for people who RTFM, but the idiot monkey default should drop people into groups automatically.
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I think the problem with the LFG utility is that Blizzard doesn't do enough to force people to use it. 90% of players are too stupid to fiqure it out, ever. Everyone should be forced into LFG for every quest by default. If people want to opt for solo play that should be possible for people who RTFM, but the idiot monkey default should drop people into groups automatically.
# posted by : 30/8/09 15:11
: 30/8/09 15:11<< Home
