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Wednesday, June 27, 2007
Hating the people you play with
The hunter took a couple of steps backwards, away from the people meleeing the mob, but got into the aggro range of the next group of mobs, wiping the raid. The priest had a flaky internet connection, getting disconnected several times during fights, also wiping the raid. Next raid the main tank warrior didn't show up, there was no replacement available, and the raid was cancelled after a frustrating wait. One raid everybody relied on the paladin to heal, but he had respec'd to retribution for PvP and hadn't told anybody, causing lots of wipes. The mage is always starting dps too early, before it is called. The warlock suddenly had to leave in the middle of the dungeon, for some real life nonsense, and it took half an hour to replace him. And don't get me started on the new guy, the shaman, who doesn't know the raid encounters and keeps making mistakes, while getting most of the epics that nobody else wants any more.
Sounds familiar? Fact is that whether it is 5-man groups or raids, somebody making a mistake or having an accident can easily wipe the whole group. It doesn't matter how good you play, if the guy next to you messes up, you'll wipe too. The harder the encounter, the less room there is for error, and the smaller an error from one player can kill everybody else. Repeatedly. Obviously that is quite frustrating, especially if it wasn't you who made the mistake. And if enough of those incidents happen, it doesn't exactly evoke love towards your fellow players. Some groups or raids simply end in failure, or even don't get started at all, and you leave you cursing and fuming about the others.
That doesn't remain without consequences. My headline of "hating the people you play with" is an exaggeration. But you don't have to look far on various official game or guild forums before you stumble upon posts where one player disses another player for one of the things I mentioned in the first paragraph: Playing badly, getting disconnected, not turning up, making a "wrong" choice of talents, et cetera, et cetera. And many guilds have formal or informal rules that kick people out, or at least not give them raiding spots, for various "crimes". I've read one guild web site where going on holiday for 3 weeks (as I will in 10 days) is enough for getting your kicked out of the guild, even if you announce it beforehand. Most guilds are far more moderate, but if you have a history of getting the others wiped, don't count on getting invited to the next raid. Even if the problem was related to your internet connection or real life happenings, which aren't really your fault.
But the most serious consequence of other people being able to ruin your fun in a group is that it often results in people preferring to play solo. You would think the main attraction of a massively multiplayer game would be to play with other people, but at any given moment in World of Warcraft there are far more people not grouped than in a group. Playing solo is popular, because it minimizes negative interference from other players. The cost of that is that it also minimizes positive interference from other players. Forced grouping, like in Everquest, although it did foster social cohesion, is now so unpopular that you simply can't sell a game any more that does it. But the degree of friendship you feel towards your fellow players has diminished, leading to phenomena like the Kleenex guild, disposable at any moment.
I'm not quite sure how it can be done, but I think that game design of new MMORPGs should be tuned in a way as to make players not despise each other so much, but see them as allies. Grouping shouldn't be forced, but I think there is room to make it more advantageous, giving better xp bonuses for grouping. And in designing encounters for groups you need to carefully balance the challenge and rewards of everybody playing well with the likelihood of one error wiping the group, and the resulting frustration for all other players in the group. Can they just try again, or is there a respawn throwing them way back in their progress if they wipe? Multiplayer games shouldn't teach us to hate the people we play with. Not just because that "isn't nice", but for the simple business reason that people pay longer for games where their friends are.
- posted by Tobold @ 10:06 AM Permanent Link
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This really ties back to your discussion on raids and how integral people are to them. By not allowing for the margin of error that is likely in the population of an MMO, it forces people to close ranks, segregate and solo.
# posted by 
: 27/6/07 12:55
: 27/6/07 12:55
The things I hate most when playing solo are:
(1) when I am clearly targetting a mob (ie I am standing in front of it, just out of aggro range, and am casting a spell) and someone else with a ranged attack will deliberately try and tag the mob before my own spell lands.
(2) People trying to grab a chest/node when I have spent 10 minutes clearing all the mobs from it.
(3) People opening Join a Group/Trade windows without speaking to me first.
The things I hate most when in a group (and let's face it, these happen mostly in PUGS and not friend/guild runs) are:
(1) People who quit the group after a wipe without saying anything, either by just leaving the party, or intentionally DCing and not coming back.
(2) Arguments over loot (inevitably).
(3) People who are constantly bickering about other group members' failure to do X or Y properly.
(1) when I am clearly targetting a mob (ie I am standing in front of it, just out of aggro range, and am casting a spell) and someone else with a ranged attack will deliberately try and tag the mob before my own spell lands.
(2) People trying to grab a chest/node when I have spent 10 minutes clearing all the mobs from it.
(3) People opening Join a Group/Trade windows without speaking to me first.
The things I hate most when in a group (and let's face it, these happen mostly in PUGS and not friend/guild runs) are:
(1) People who quit the group after a wipe without saying anything, either by just leaving the party, or intentionally DCing and not coming back.
(2) Arguments over loot (inevitably).
(3) People who are constantly bickering about other group members' failure to do X or Y properly.
# posted by : 27/6/07 13:23
: 27/6/07 13:23
MMOs are real social spaces. Nothing about the social interactions are virtual, they are just abstracted a little.
But this isn't the point here. The question is, can one take the ad hominem inducing stuff out of group encounters. I think that would be completely different games than the current hack'n'slay type games. A game that takes the death penalty even more out of the equation that WoW already has.
See there is a death penalty in WoW in terms of repair costs. I think there would be less hate if wiping wouldn't cost as much.
As with no-shows and RL interference. I think we just have more tolerance for interference in our RL interactions and that for many reasons. One is that the people we interact with are really all friends (say we organise a board game night). A friend who can't show will have a valid reason and alert everybody. In WoW raiding, even after spending 2 years together, in a strict sense many raid members are still RL strangers to each other and seem to apply lower levels of accountability for that reason.
My RL friends I online play with will report their circumstances and explain why they can't show much more and the reasons are more always alright. And certainly they'll know that I'm going to be sympathetic towards it, rather than pissed. I'd never have loot arguments with my RL friends but maybe it is more a function of how I select my friends than something else, but I still do think that this makes a big difference.
But back to the topic, I do think that a collaborative game that too tightly emphasises individual performance in the group is basically designed to cause bad blood.
But at the same time we have odd and diverging trends in gaming. Think of starcraft where a hardcore bunch of competitive players have been with it for years. Or the world-first races that make the most visible part of WoW raiding. On the other hand many more people play MMOs now and there is trends (oddly also initiated by WoW) towards more casual entry at least. What keeps the hardcore e-sports fanatic (who'd be happy to kick someone for an better standing) to a casual gamer who doesn't want to kick or be kicked in general, and who just wants to have a good time without much extra hassle is an interesting question. It's two very different trends happening at the same time!
But this isn't the point here. The question is, can one take the ad hominem inducing stuff out of group encounters. I think that would be completely different games than the current hack'n'slay type games. A game that takes the death penalty even more out of the equation that WoW already has.
See there is a death penalty in WoW in terms of repair costs. I think there would be less hate if wiping wouldn't cost as much.
As with no-shows and RL interference. I think we just have more tolerance for interference in our RL interactions and that for many reasons. One is that the people we interact with are really all friends (say we organise a board game night). A friend who can't show will have a valid reason and alert everybody. In WoW raiding, even after spending 2 years together, in a strict sense many raid members are still RL strangers to each other and seem to apply lower levels of accountability for that reason.
My RL friends I online play with will report their circumstances and explain why they can't show much more and the reasons are more always alright. And certainly they'll know that I'm going to be sympathetic towards it, rather than pissed. I'd never have loot arguments with my RL friends but maybe it is more a function of how I select my friends than something else, but I still do think that this makes a big difference.
But back to the topic, I do think that a collaborative game that too tightly emphasises individual performance in the group is basically designed to cause bad blood.
But at the same time we have odd and diverging trends in gaming. Think of starcraft where a hardcore bunch of competitive players have been with it for years. Or the world-first races that make the most visible part of WoW raiding. On the other hand many more people play MMOs now and there is trends (oddly also initiated by WoW) towards more casual entry at least. What keeps the hardcore e-sports fanatic (who'd be happy to kick someone for an better standing) to a casual gamer who doesn't want to kick or be kicked in general, and who just wants to have a good time without much extra hassle is an interesting question. It's two very different trends happening at the same time!
# posted by : 27/6/07 13:51
: 27/6/07 13:51
it doesn't matter what the designers invent to hepl the grouping part.
grouping/raiding/5-mans is about TEAM-play and sadly that is not the same as humans. we are very egocentric to start with (freedom of speech bla blah blah) because we like to think we have our own space.
combine that with the fact that computer-games and their players are not known to be very social in real life, in fact they play games because of that fact.
so you have a crap beginning to start teamplay.
ofcourse this is very black and white with some exaggeration, but i rarely meet players who have done a teamsport.
grouping/raiding/5-mans is about TEAM-play and sadly that is not the same as humans. we are very egocentric to start with (freedom of speech bla blah blah) because we like to think we have our own space.
combine that with the fact that computer-games and their players are not known to be very social in real life, in fact they play games because of that fact.
so you have a crap beginning to start teamplay.
ofcourse this is very black and white with some exaggeration, but i rarely meet players who have done a teamsport.
My SO and I have been playing MMO's together since UO; we're now firmly entrenced in EQ2 -- but we both absolutely loathe grouping.There are a myriad reasons why -- pace ( "gogogo kill kill don't stop need mad xps!!!111!!!1), the ADD kids turning into jumping beans as soon as there is a nanosecond of inactivity, the butchering of the English language, lootwhores ... etc et al ad nauseum. Grouping is only *one* form of social interaction in an MMO, it need not nor should not be the sole form of maintaining subs.
# posted by : 27/6/07 14:33
: 27/6/07 14:33
Like someone said grouping is all about team play. So by definition an instance is about team play. And the only difference between a hard instance and an easy one is how many people are required to jump through the same hoop at the same time.
So in order to make instances/raid more challenging(because everyone says that`s what they want) MMO makes team play more and more important. So by very definition the harder an instance the more everyone will need to play perfect.
There is no solution to this except than make things easier, giving monsters more HP, damage and so on will in the end cause the same effect. The group will need to work better together. You can`t get around it. Sure you can add gear requirements wich tone down the difficulty but in the end it will always come down to team play.
I think what we`re seeing now is people hitting their own personnal wall. I know I`ve played single players game in the past I found too hard and where I did not want to improve myself(game wasn`t fun enough for example). So I would shelve the game and move on.
MMOs are the same except there`s more than one personn involved. Problem is some people have gone as far as they can but they keep on going and more often than not cause trouble.
Yes, it does boil down the the classic insult of "Learn 2 play!" but that insult has some truth to it. If you want to kill Illidan then you need 24 other people who have learned to jump through the hoop at the right time. There`s no other way around it. And that means that you need to put up with those who ain`t jumping until they jump the right. Sucks but all team sports have the same principle and MMOs are no exception. Don't think there will ever be a real one too.
So in order to make instances/raid more challenging(because everyone says that`s what they want) MMO makes team play more and more important. So by very definition the harder an instance the more everyone will need to play perfect.
There is no solution to this except than make things easier, giving monsters more HP, damage and so on will in the end cause the same effect. The group will need to work better together. You can`t get around it. Sure you can add gear requirements wich tone down the difficulty but in the end it will always come down to team play.
I think what we`re seeing now is people hitting their own personnal wall. I know I`ve played single players game in the past I found too hard and where I did not want to improve myself(game wasn`t fun enough for example). So I would shelve the game and move on.
MMOs are the same except there`s more than one personn involved. Problem is some people have gone as far as they can but they keep on going and more often than not cause trouble.
Yes, it does boil down the the classic insult of "Learn 2 play!" but that insult has some truth to it. If you want to kill Illidan then you need 24 other people who have learned to jump through the hoop at the right time. There`s no other way around it. And that means that you need to put up with those who ain`t jumping until they jump the right. Sucks but all team sports have the same principle and MMOs are no exception. Don't think there will ever be a real one too.
I've discussed this sort of thing at length with people. I would guess that part of the problem is the anonymity of a toon in an MMO combined with lack of dependence. For example, the truth is that you wouldn't be likely to just not show up at your job, or leave for no reason on your shift -- but people do that in WoW all the time because there is no penalty. It's far easier to find another guild or PUG than to find another job!
In fact, the AFK penalty in PvP was instituted to stop people from bailing out of battlegrounds on a whim. Maybe PvE needs something similar.
How about a rating system in PvE?
Whenever a player leaves a group, the group members are prompted give a rating (such as excellent / good / fair / poor). It would need checks and balances; maybe it could work like the Ebay system; short comment, with capability to respond to a poor rating.
Give access both to feedback received and feedback given, so that people who hit others with a poor rating would be accountable for their feedback given as well.
And have each toon carry a connection reliability rating based on d/c rate over, say, the last 14 days.
With some testing and tuning I think such a system could work.
In fact, the AFK penalty in PvP was instituted to stop people from bailing out of battlegrounds on a whim. Maybe PvE needs something similar.
How about a rating system in PvE?
Whenever a player leaves a group, the group members are prompted give a rating (such as excellent / good / fair / poor). It would need checks and balances; maybe it could work like the Ebay system; short comment, with capability to respond to a poor rating.
Give access both to feedback received and feedback given, so that people who hit others with a poor rating would be accountable for their feedback given as well.
And have each toon carry a connection reliability rating based on d/c rate over, say, the last 14 days.
With some testing and tuning I think such a system could work.
# posted by : 27/6/07 15:13
: 27/6/07 15:13
In CoX I always solo mayhem missions or any timed mission or badge mission - other people will just screw it up for me.
But that feeling of helplessness and annoyance is how I often felt on my priest. I'd just be sitting there doing nothing - playing whackamole, and completely at the mercy not of the mobs but of the other players. That is the most frustrating part of being a healer.
Playing a tank in LOTRO I feel quite the same way.
I am not sure what can be done: if it has grouping to overcome challenges, people will act like that.
You've said pro sports should not be used as analogies and I agree. However amateur sports leagues certainly apply. In amateur or "fun" leagues, there are always going to be people upset with others for not trying hard enough. There will be teams that practice more than the others to win. You keep seeing this happen esp during any playoffs your "fun, noncompetative" volleyball league has. It's all fun until the playoffs, then people start getting nasty.
I think the only way for people to not get so upset would be two ways :
1. to lower the rewards so it's not a big deal, more for fun and challenge than to get a reward. This way people like me would not feel compelled to solo or wait for a guild group for important quests - but only because there would be no important quests.
2. to have no penalties. When you wipe on a boss you instantly rez just outside of the bosses room with no damage to your items. But even then you waste consumables.
3. no tank or healers or holy trinity classes would help the feeling of helplessness depending on other characters to do their jobs.
Neither of those solutions is very ideal.
But that feeling of helplessness and annoyance is how I often felt on my priest. I'd just be sitting there doing nothing - playing whackamole, and completely at the mercy not of the mobs but of the other players. That is the most frustrating part of being a healer.
Playing a tank in LOTRO I feel quite the same way.
I am not sure what can be done: if it has grouping to overcome challenges, people will act like that.
You've said pro sports should not be used as analogies and I agree. However amateur sports leagues certainly apply. In amateur or "fun" leagues, there are always going to be people upset with others for not trying hard enough. There will be teams that practice more than the others to win. You keep seeing this happen esp during any playoffs your "fun, noncompetative" volleyball league has. It's all fun until the playoffs, then people start getting nasty.
I think the only way for people to not get so upset would be two ways :
1. to lower the rewards so it's not a big deal, more for fun and challenge than to get a reward. This way people like me would not feel compelled to solo or wait for a guild group for important quests - but only because there would be no important quests.
2. to have no penalties. When you wipe on a boss you instantly rez just outside of the bosses room with no damage to your items. But even then you waste consumables.
3. no tank or healers or holy trinity classes would help the feeling of helplessness depending on other characters to do their jobs.
Neither of those solutions is very ideal.
# posted by : 27/6/07 15:30
: 27/6/07 15:30
This is a growing problem in wow at least. The game is so solo friendly with virtually no reward for grouping. This causes people to solo to endgame and then they have to completely relearn how to play thier characters in a group. 2 years ago that wasn't a big deal but the entire community has gotton older and less patient. Like a bunch of old people in a nursing home. People who've been playing that long have a sad tendancy to forget there are new characters who need to learn how to play. And unfortunately to learn how to group you have to group and make mistakes. So there is less and less grouping. There really should be some tangible benefit to grouping. A small buff or access to abilites that can only be used in group settings. Anything that would encourage more people to group and start to rebuild the rotting social network that is the current WOW.
Actually the more I think of rezzing near your body the more I like it. Let player's ghosts appear near their body immediately, and have a choice of to rez where they are (they can move around some) or to rez at the graveyard (if it is not safe to rez or they fell down a pit etc). Or just give ghosts a fly ability to get out of pits.
Since the whole running back from a gy is just silly an annoying. Death penalties can come in the form of XP or armor damage, there's no need to annoy players on top of it by making them spend 5 minutes running.
I don't know who came up with the idea, maybe it goes back to savepoints in console games. But it just doesn't belong in a MMORPG.
Since the whole running back from a gy is just silly an annoying. Death penalties can come in the form of XP or armor damage, there's no need to annoy players on top of it by making them spend 5 minutes running.
I don't know who came up with the idea, maybe it goes back to savepoints in console games. But it just doesn't belong in a MMORPG.
# posted by : 27/6/07 17:16
: 27/6/07 17:16
I'm not quite sure how it can be done, but I think that game design of new MMORPGs should be tuned in a way as to make players not despise each other so much, but see them as allies.
That would imply most of the World population suddenly changing into something other than idiots. Let's face it, unless the game could drug people into being decent human beings, there's no way you'd get your wish.
Sophia the Healadin
That would imply most of the World population suddenly changing into something other than idiots. Let's face it, unless the game could drug people into being decent human beings, there's no way you'd get your wish.
Sophia the Healadin
# posted by : 27/6/07 17:52
: 27/6/07 17:52
On another note, check out this brutal review of the LOTRO high level content.
http://www.mmo-gamer.com/?p=165
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http://www.mmo-gamer.com/?p=165
= # # =
# posted by : 27/6/07 18:23
: 27/6/07 18:23
"I think that game design of new MMORPGs should be tuned in a way as to make players not despise each other so much, but see them as allies. Grouping shouldn't be forced, but I think there is room to make it more advantageous, giving better xp bonuses for grouping."
This is what I'm hoping for from Warhammer. The way they're describing PvE players able to contribute to PvP efforts without flagging. The need to depend on your teammates in PvP. I'm sure Mythic will have bonuses for grouping and controlling territory, they had it in DAOC.
Honestly, I've kind of given up on grouping in PvE games. Without the threat of annihilation from other players, I find that people are just too selfish, in a variety of ways, to be much fun to group with.
Having a pack of human enemies holwing after your group makes people drop the bullshit and focus on cooperation a lot quicker :)
PvE definitely needs some work. It's tough to find a good group of people that aren't selfish, because PvE raiding, at the end of the day, is a selfish pursuit. You have to hope you find a guild that enjoys seeing their friends succeed as much as they enjoy getting new things themselves. If you find a group of people like that, keep in touch with 'em, they're a rare gaming breed.
This is what I'm hoping for from Warhammer. The way they're describing PvE players able to contribute to PvP efforts without flagging. The need to depend on your teammates in PvP. I'm sure Mythic will have bonuses for grouping and controlling territory, they had it in DAOC.
Honestly, I've kind of given up on grouping in PvE games. Without the threat of annihilation from other players, I find that people are just too selfish, in a variety of ways, to be much fun to group with.
Having a pack of human enemies holwing after your group makes people drop the bullshit and focus on cooperation a lot quicker :)
PvE definitely needs some work. It's tough to find a good group of people that aren't selfish, because PvE raiding, at the end of the day, is a selfish pursuit. You have to hope you find a guild that enjoys seeing their friends succeed as much as they enjoy getting new things themselves. If you find a group of people like that, keep in touch with 'em, they're a rare gaming breed.
# posted by : 27/6/07 18:27
: 27/6/07 18:27
Let's boil it down to one word:
TRUST
In EQ, once you found players you could trust, they were your friends for life.
Since new mmorpgs have removed the various ways that a player can screw you over, the element of trust is no longer as important.
= # # =
TRUST
In EQ, once you found players you could trust, they were your friends for life.
Since new mmorpgs have removed the various ways that a player can screw you over, the element of trust is no longer as important.
= # # =
# posted by : 27/6/07 18:34
: 27/6/07 18:34
One of the reasons I left WoW was its unrealistic expectations of people and so on. It's not fair on people to expect them to not be people, after all.
You talk about hating people, but really these guys aren't any better or worse than you. IRL does come first - if your stoves on fire, you're going to leave the raid to deal with it. Having an unforgiving environment leads to resentment of people who can't commit at that moment as much as you can, which is sort of what you're getting at.
It's just not right. It's not good that a game will make you dislike people for being people. It's supposed to be a social thing, right? Right?
WoW's difficulty slider gets more brutal the higher the level. It's possible for competent players in cloth to do Sunken Temple. It's impossible for even highly geared and legendary players to do Gruul's Lair in cloth (even if they're all Warlocks :). Just won't work.
Y'all should be hating the game, not the people you play with. If the game's designed in such a way that you get these encounters with other humans all the time, then something's wrong. Their great success (appealing to the casual gamer) is partially where this comes from, but the game's design of switching at end game from "casual" to "hard core" is simply an unfair transition to expect people to make.
The most prolific gaming demographic is the Alpha Mom - over 30, female, and loving gaming. They play all kinds of shit - and they outnumber hardcore raiders by a significant margin. Blizzard need to wake the hell up and understand that their game's endgame current sucks for all but a (albiet significant) minority.
I remember Diablo II - that was fantastic. If someone dropped during your run, it wasn't a biggy. More people made more fun, not less fun, which is where WoW falls over.
You talk about hating people, but really these guys aren't any better or worse than you. IRL does come first - if your stoves on fire, you're going to leave the raid to deal with it. Having an unforgiving environment leads to resentment of people who can't commit at that moment as much as you can, which is sort of what you're getting at.
It's just not right. It's not good that a game will make you dislike people for being people. It's supposed to be a social thing, right? Right?
WoW's difficulty slider gets more brutal the higher the level. It's possible for competent players in cloth to do Sunken Temple. It's impossible for even highly geared and legendary players to do Gruul's Lair in cloth (even if they're all Warlocks :). Just won't work.
Y'all should be hating the game, not the people you play with. If the game's designed in such a way that you get these encounters with other humans all the time, then something's wrong. Their great success (appealing to the casual gamer) is partially where this comes from, but the game's design of switching at end game from "casual" to "hard core" is simply an unfair transition to expect people to make.
The most prolific gaming demographic is the Alpha Mom - over 30, female, and loving gaming. They play all kinds of shit - and they outnumber hardcore raiders by a significant margin. Blizzard need to wake the hell up and understand that their game's endgame current sucks for all but a (albiet significant) minority.
I remember Diablo II - that was fantastic. If someone dropped during your run, it wasn't a biggy. More people made more fun, not less fun, which is where WoW falls over.
Honestly, I grew to despise the majority of my server's player base that I decided to change servers...then I decided I didn't want to pay 20 bucks. So I quit.
To be fair, I have met a lot of smart, mature players. The immature ones have simply had a greater effect on me. At least I can assume that most players of LotRO have read a book.
To be fair, I have met a lot of smart, mature players. The immature ones have simply had a greater effect on me. At least I can assume that most players of LotRO have read a book.
# posted by : 28/6/07 00:46
: 28/6/07 00:46
If you hate the people you play with, find new people, because you're playing with the wrong people.
It's supposed to be a social thing, right? Right?
For some people, yes. For others, no. They key is finding people that are likeminded. If you're social, find social people. If you're competitive, find competitive people.
The amateur sports analogy made above is very apt. There are amateur leagues and teams in all sports that are highly competitive, highly motivated, and highly committed to winning. If you are just out to get some exercise, and have a bit of fun, you do not want to play with those people. And likewise, they do not want to play with you. Too many guilds/groups try to appeal to the whole spectrum of players... and fail miserably.
Determine what kind of player you are, and surround yourself with others who play that way.
It's supposed to be a social thing, right? Right?
For some people, yes. For others, no. They key is finding people that are likeminded. If you're social, find social people. If you're competitive, find competitive people.
The amateur sports analogy made above is very apt. There are amateur leagues and teams in all sports that are highly competitive, highly motivated, and highly committed to winning. If you are just out to get some exercise, and have a bit of fun, you do not want to play with those people. And likewise, they do not want to play with you. Too many guilds/groups try to appeal to the whole spectrum of players... and fail miserably.
Determine what kind of player you are, and surround yourself with others who play that way.
# posted by : 28/6/07 01:28
: 28/6/07 01:28
In diablo 2 you can solo the bosses. Each class was its own mix of DPS and some group utility (druids +spirit auras, Barbs +shouts, sorcs teleport and best pve damageg, necros + curses and minions, assassins, Great AoE versatility)
In comparison to WoW, diablo 2 classes had at their core a way to plainly just melee mobs and not ever use skills to progress just by upgrading their stats enough to wear certain gear. Skill tree's ontop of that made the char that much better. In WoW however, skill trees only specialize your char into a singular trait (heals, tanks, dps's) which is lame.
In comparison to WoW, diablo 2 classes had at their core a way to plainly just melee mobs and not ever use skills to progress just by upgrading their stats enough to wear certain gear. Skill tree's ontop of that made the char that much better. In WoW however, skill trees only specialize your char into a singular trait (heals, tanks, dps's) which is lame.
Speaking for WOW:
Well, grouping sucks because the encounters are designed for a working group - that means within 5 characters everyone must know his role and play accordingly. If one of five is not playing well you lose 20% of your theoretical force and others must compensate for it (if that is possible). And there is no incentive for grouping - it is required to "beat the content" nothing more.
"Playing well in a group" is an art which comes not easy because you need to learn, what action is currently needed mostly - only experience on failures give you that knowledge. And that is the problem: you will need to fail to learn. Players who already failed enough are tired of this and getting upset very quickly because they see, that player X is doing "obvisious" mistakes.
I would like to see a mentoring system in WOW so that you can downgrade you char to a lower level and doing quests and instances with newbies / guildies. By doing this, you gain mentoring points (bases on the expierience the scholar aquires) for titles (like the old pvp rank). This could open a complete new endgame for players who like to educate others even with no reward (well, a high honored mentor is very valuable for any guild so there is some kind of reward).
Well, grouping sucks because the encounters are designed for a working group - that means within 5 characters everyone must know his role and play accordingly. If one of five is not playing well you lose 20% of your theoretical force and others must compensate for it (if that is possible). And there is no incentive for grouping - it is required to "beat the content" nothing more.
"Playing well in a group" is an art which comes not easy because you need to learn, what action is currently needed mostly - only experience on failures give you that knowledge. And that is the problem: you will need to fail to learn. Players who already failed enough are tired of this and getting upset very quickly because they see, that player X is doing "obvisious" mistakes.
I would like to see a mentoring system in WOW so that you can downgrade you char to a lower level and doing quests and instances with newbies / guildies. By doing this, you gain mentoring points (bases on the expierience the scholar aquires) for titles (like the old pvp rank). This could open a complete new endgame for players who like to educate others even with no reward (well, a high honored mentor is very valuable for any guild so there is some kind of reward).
# posted by : 28/6/07 09:09
: 28/6/07 09:09
A good group makes WoW a brilliant game, so keep trying to find one if you haven't got one.
# posted by : 28/6/07 11:20
: 28/6/07 11:20
When it comes to WOW the main reason that people suck so badly when they first group is because there is absolutely no training on how to play class X or Y effectively in a group. I have met tanks who didn't know that sunder armor and revenge were the best way to hold aggro, not because they were ZOMG NOOB, but because blizzard doesn't explain their class mechanics; they just toss players into the world and say "have fun!".
A simple fix for this problem would be to add a feature which required players to enter an instanced solo "dungeon" where they are presented with a series of situations that they must be able to overcome before they can purchase their new skills. Situations like throwing 3 mobs at a warrior at the same time and requiring him to generate a certain amount of hate on each mob before his health expires, throwing 3 mobs at a mage so he/she has to sheep one, freeze 2 others, and then beat them all one at a time, just to name a couple.
I doubt this will ever be done because MMO companies want people to be noobs at lvl 70 as each wipe or 1 hour dungeon that takes 3 hours due to the ignorence makes the company that much richer. They want you to fail!
A simple fix for this problem would be to add a feature which required players to enter an instanced solo "dungeon" where they are presented with a series of situations that they must be able to overcome before they can purchase their new skills. Situations like throwing 3 mobs at a warrior at the same time and requiring him to generate a certain amount of hate on each mob before his health expires, throwing 3 mobs at a mage so he/she has to sheep one, freeze 2 others, and then beat them all one at a time, just to name a couple.
I doubt this will ever be done because MMO companies want people to be noobs at lvl 70 as each wipe or 1 hour dungeon that takes 3 hours due to the ignorence makes the company that much richer. They want you to fail!
# posted by : 28/6/07 19:55
: 28/6/07 19:55
I just wanted to say thank you for getting some of these thoughts down. I have written similar things 3 years ago when I was in WoW beta. There is a fundamental problem with games that make it easier to level solo. Im the type of player who would rather group and have fun than grind and max out, at the same time I don't like wasting time. I will call people out and tell them exactly what they did wrong, and that fosters animosity in some who don't feel they should have to answer to anyone in a game they pay for. These people make up the majority of paying gamers, and so the industry (basically Blizzard and their copy cats) tailor games toward that audience. Then, when they get to level 50 and have to start grouping to advance they don't know how to cooperate, communicate, or focus on their role. It's too late, because they've played solo for 50 levels with the idea that they don't need anyone else.
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# posted by : 1/7/07 20:49
: 1/7/07 20:49<< Home
