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Monday, August 13, 2007
Are quests the new grind?
The original Everquest, despite the name, actually didn't have all that many quests. Your day-to-day way to gather experience points and level up was to get into a group, go somewhere with mobs of an appropriate level, and stay at that spot the whole day, killing the same monsters over and over. That was called "camping" at the time, but over time more and more people called it "grinding". Fast forward to 2007 and grinding the same monster over and over is only done for reputation, or for farming a specific drop from that particular mob. The day-to-day way to gather experience points and level up is doing quests. Has questing become the new grinding?
Players always take the way of least resistance to level up. In Everquest that was staying at the same spot, because "breaking a camp" was quite hard, but then taking out the respawns as they popped up one by one was much easier. There was a disincentive to move at that time. In modern games like WoW, EQ2, or LotRO, doing quests is the fastest way to level up. As long as a game has a sufficient number of quests, and the quest reward is worth the additional effort of moving, leveling up by doing nothing but quests all day is the preferred general activity.
But in the process quests have become less special. Hands up, how many of you aren't reading the quest text any more, except for the short "kill 10 foozles" summary bit? World of Warcraft originally had quest texts arriving very slowly in the quest window, trying to force people to read the text. But an option to make quest text appear instantly, so you could click accept without reading the text, was one of the first WoW UI mods, and later it got included as option in the game. EQ2 is trying to make people listen to the quest text by having it spoken out, but most people still just click through it. These games literally have thousands of quests, each one a small story why this quest giver wants you to have those 10 foozles killed. After having done that for a while the stories all begin to resemble each other. They aren't exactly Hemingway quality to start with, and after having read a hundred, you have read them all. Quests have stopped to be about the story, and have turned into an additional reward for killing those foozles, you would otherwise have grinded anyway. That is still an improvement, because it encourages people to move around a bit more, but nevertheless for some people quests now feel like the new grind. Something you only do to advance your character, not because it is fun.
What we need is better ways to tell a story, and better stories. Final Fantasy XI has special quests which are told with cut scenes, and include your avatar in those cut scenes, which is pretty cool. Lord of the Rings Online has its epic quest line, which is intertwined with Tolkien's epic saga from the books. These are steps in the right direction, but we need more of those.
The underlying problem is that most of the time you aren't really interested in killing this mob or doing that quest, you only do it for the experience points. What you do doesn't really matter, as long as you gain the points, which makes you level up. It is the new abilities and powers you get from leveling up that you really want, you couldn't care less about the farmer having a foozle problem in his backyard and needing them killed. TheMonk, one of my readers, sent me an e-mail with an interesting proposal: What if there was a game without experience points and levels, but quest lines where the reward was directly the unlocking of a specific skill? The direct route, the quest line leads to the skill you want, and not to some generic xp which get you the skill when you have enough of them. Guild Wars, which is less level-centric, has abilities unlocked by quests, I believe. Having a direct connection between the story and the reward you really want might make quests more interesting.
As is so often the case, we have arrived at some plateau, a point in time where developers have found a quest-drive gameplay which works more or less, and implemented it in many different games. Many people currently think that this is the way it has to be, and best possible way to play. But I am sure that quests as we know them now are not the non plus ultra. Sooner or later somebody will come up with a more fun way of MMORPG gameplay, which is even more interesting. And then the current mode of advancing by doing quests all day will feel as antiquated as shouting "camp check" in EQ1 in the commonlands to find which orcs camps are already taken.
- posted by Tobold @ 8:44 AM Permanent Link
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What if there was a game without experience points and levels, but quest lines where the reward was directly the unlocking of a specific skill? The direct route, the quest line leads to the skill you want, and not to some generic xp which get you the skill when you have enough of them. Guild Wars, which is less level-centric, has abilities unlocked by quests, I believe. Having a direct connection between the story and the reward you really want might make quests more interesting.
Changing reward format won't turn the things you do to get that reward fun. To remove "grind" all you can do is to make the things the player does in the game fun on their own, and make sure he progresses by "accident" while doing that fun stuff. No magic formula, just plain and mundane design and implementation work.
It is the sweat of the developer that removes the grind.
Changing reward format won't turn the things you do to get that reward fun. To remove "grind" all you can do is to make the things the player does in the game fun on their own, and make sure he progresses by "accident" while doing that fun stuff. No magic formula, just plain and mundane design and implementation work.
It is the sweat of the developer that removes the grind.
In Guild Wars you reach the maximum level in about a day (20) and then as you continue doing quests you usually get tokens, experience or skill points.
Experience makes you level up, but instead of getting new stats you get skill points after level 20. Skill points can then again be used to unlock skills at a skill trainer, which to me feels pretty innovative.
Tokens which are the other kind of general giveaway in quests are traded in to useful items (such as salvage kits, identification kits, scrolls etc), which help you along the way of doing quests and gathering materials for crafting.
What's bad in this system for me though is that when you reach level 20, you got kinda a nice set of skill points already (not enough to buy all skills of course, but enough to make your character effective enough). This leads to the problem of standalone quests being way too trivial. Still I want to move along the main quest line so I think that is quite the ok system for me. :)
Experience makes you level up, but instead of getting new stats you get skill points after level 20. Skill points can then again be used to unlock skills at a skill trainer, which to me feels pretty innovative.
Tokens which are the other kind of general giveaway in quests are traded in to useful items (such as salvage kits, identification kits, scrolls etc), which help you along the way of doing quests and gathering materials for crafting.
What's bad in this system for me though is that when you reach level 20, you got kinda a nice set of skill points already (not enough to buy all skills of course, but enough to make your character effective enough). This leads to the problem of standalone quests being way too trivial. Still I want to move along the main quest line so I think that is quite the ok system for me. :)
If I have a mission of 'kill 10 foozles' and the foozles spawn in a predicatable spot/small area then, yes, that is very much a boring grind to me. But if the MOB spawns randomly over a large area then it feels more like real hunting and less grindy.
I like quests because they give me a nice short-term goal. I can't grind for more than a few minutes without losing my mind, but if there's a short-term goal that I'm working toward, something that can be completed inside of, say, thirty minutes, I'm happy.
"Hands up, how many of you aren't reading the quest text any more, except for the short "kill 10 foozles" summary bit?"
Actually, I always stop and force myself to read every quest. The only exception is when the quest or turn-in is in a hazardous spot, or if I've done the quest multiple times already.
But I do think that some/many/most(?) people are just clicking through, especially when I read some of the complaints about the BC lore and storyline. It's like they're not even playing the same game! So I have to think that they are either not reading quests, or perhaps are leveling some other way such as grinding.
Overall it's a decent fantasy storyline, and seems to me to be reasonably well-thought-out and interesting (such as the set of Kirin Var quests, or the Rexxar quests that involve his bestiary and eventually Rexxar himself), and some quest lines are IMO excellent (the Mag'har and especially the final Greatmother quest line). They certainly - for the most part - meet, and sometimes exceed, my expectations.
Actually, I always stop and force myself to read every quest. The only exception is when the quest or turn-in is in a hazardous spot, or if I've done the quest multiple times already.
But I do think that some/many/most(?) people are just clicking through, especially when I read some of the complaints about the BC lore and storyline. It's like they're not even playing the same game! So I have to think that they are either not reading quests, or perhaps are leveling some other way such as grinding.
Overall it's a decent fantasy storyline, and seems to me to be reasonably well-thought-out and interesting (such as the set of Kirin Var quests, or the Rexxar quests that involve his bestiary and eventually Rexxar himself), and some quest lines are IMO excellent (the Mag'har and especially the final Greatmother quest line). They certainly - for the most part - meet, and sometimes exceed, my expectations.
# posted by 
: 13/8/07 14:52
: 13/8/07 14:52
Thanks for including my idea in your blog!
As for my idea, the problem with any “innovation” is that it becomes old hat sooner than later (and becomes the grind). I think the advantage of having abilities/skills linked to a story arc (series of quests) is the increase in immersion. However, you can lead a player to a quest, but you can’t make him read it: he’s going to skip anything that isn’t required to complete the quest and get the reward. Unless you make sure that the text in the quest is actually required to complete the quest (not just “kill x mobs”), then most players will simply grind through them like anything else.
As for my idea, the problem with any “innovation” is that it becomes old hat sooner than later (and becomes the grind). I think the advantage of having abilities/skills linked to a story arc (series of quests) is the increase in immersion. However, you can lead a player to a quest, but you can’t make him read it: he’s going to skip anything that isn’t required to complete the quest and get the reward. Unless you make sure that the text in the quest is actually required to complete the quest (not just “kill x mobs”), then most players will simply grind through them like anything else.
STV quests can be so frustrating:
1) Collect 10 Troll Heads
2) Collect 25 Troll Necklaces
3) Collect 3 Troll Skulls
4) Bring back the Troll leaders' heads
5) Bring me the head of X (Troll)
6) Bring me Troll Y's armour
and most of these quests you have to do for different quest givers who want the items for different reasons.
Surely it would have been more interesting to link all these quests together, gradually building up in a complex storyline involving Zul Farrak, JacInthor and the Sunken Temple, until finally the show-down in Zul Gurub with Hakaar.
The 'fetch me 10 Foozle skins so I can make a nice dress from them' type quest is indeed just a grind.
1) Collect 10 Troll Heads
2) Collect 25 Troll Necklaces
3) Collect 3 Troll Skulls
4) Bring back the Troll leaders' heads
5) Bring me the head of X (Troll)
6) Bring me Troll Y's armour
and most of these quests you have to do for different quest givers who want the items for different reasons.
Surely it would have been more interesting to link all these quests together, gradually building up in a complex storyline involving Zul Farrak, JacInthor and the Sunken Temple, until finally the show-down in Zul Gurub with Hakaar.
The 'fetch me 10 Foozle skins so I can make a nice dress from them' type quest is indeed just a grind.
# posted by : 13/8/07 15:29
: 13/8/07 15:29
Probably one of the most amusing quest series I did was in WoW's Nagrand (I think) when you have to kill Ogres and Orcs, then stake each body with a banner from the opposing tribe, in order to make the leader of a third tribe of Ogres happy. The silly thing was after doing all this I was still KOS to the Ogres of the third camp. I would even have to kill the Leader's bodyguards in order to get the quests then later turn them in. There was a nice reward at the end of that series but when it was all over it was a bit of a letdown because WoW is a static world, so nothing you do changes anything.
I enjoyed the Jailbreak series for that very reason. All of SW stops and acknowledges you and Reginald as you march to the Keep and confront Lady Prestor, then all hell breaks loose. Awesome stuff.
I enjoyed the Jailbreak series for that very reason. All of SW stops and acknowledges you and Reginald as you march to the Keep and confront Lady Prestor, then all hell breaks loose. Awesome stuff.
Yeah The Marshall windsor chaing and the defias chain should be blizzards standard for quests.
Those quests made you feel like you were actually a part of the world. Nothing in BC comes even close.
Those quests made you feel like you were actually a part of the world. Nothing in BC comes even close.
Christ, even for an mmorpg vet, that's pretty damn jaded. Look, the reality is that WoW moved the genre forward. Blizzard established a level of quality that is the new gold standard. The only main problem with the 1-60 game is that there's not enough of it.
It sounds like the writer has burnout. I didn't play any mmorpg for 18 months and when I took advantage of WoW's 10 day free trial, my enjoyment of Ghostlands was without equal - it was only after I saw Hillsbrad on the horizon that I lost interest.
Let me break it to those of you who's first mmorpg was WoW. You will never ever experience any mmorpg the way you experienced WoW the first month you played. You have popped your mmorpg cherry and you're never getting it back.
And if you've played the genre long enough to see behind the curtain, and you can't get past that fact, nothing short of losing your memory is going to satisfy you.
It sounds like the writer has burnout. I didn't play any mmorpg for 18 months and when I took advantage of WoW's 10 day free trial, my enjoyment of Ghostlands was without equal - it was only after I saw Hillsbrad on the horizon that I lost interest.
Let me break it to those of you who's first mmorpg was WoW. You will never ever experience any mmorpg the way you experienced WoW the first month you played. You have popped your mmorpg cherry and you're never getting it back.
And if you've played the genre long enough to see behind the curtain, and you can't get past that fact, nothing short of losing your memory is going to satisfy you.
# posted by : 13/8/07 17:23
: 13/8/07 17:23
There are two problems here.
One comes down to the crucial advice that fiction writers are given: "show 'em, don't tell 'em." In too many WoW quests, players are told the story rather than shown it.
For instance, the standard WoW quest reads something like: "The woods are overrun, lots of blah blah blah! Kill 10 foozles and come back."
Instead it should be something like: "Farmer Blah can't get home because there are too many Foozles in the way. Kill 10 of them and let him know" - and then when you let him know he actually goes home and you can get the next part of the chain from him when he gets there. This shows the player the story rather than telling them, and the quest text becomes largely irrelevant.
The second problem is that the *best* way to get the player involved in the story is to make their quest actions have a semi-permanent effect on the environment (e.g. destroying an enemy camp so they flee, or repairing a bridge), which is very hard to do while catering for lots of players wanting to do the same quests simultaneously.
I've got some ideas how the underlying mechanics or philosophy could be changed to make that possible, but this post is quite long enough already! If anyone is interested, I'll think it through and post again.
One comes down to the crucial advice that fiction writers are given: "show 'em, don't tell 'em." In too many WoW quests, players are told the story rather than shown it.
For instance, the standard WoW quest reads something like: "The woods are overrun, lots of blah blah blah! Kill 10 foozles and come back."
Instead it should be something like: "Farmer Blah can't get home because there are too many Foozles in the way. Kill 10 of them and let him know" - and then when you let him know he actually goes home and you can get the next part of the chain from him when he gets there. This shows the player the story rather than telling them, and the quest text becomes largely irrelevant.
The second problem is that the *best* way to get the player involved in the story is to make their quest actions have a semi-permanent effect on the environment (e.g. destroying an enemy camp so they flee, or repairing a bridge), which is very hard to do while catering for lots of players wanting to do the same quests simultaneously.
I've got some ideas how the underlying mechanics or philosophy could be changed to make that possible, but this post is quite long enough already! If anyone is interested, I'll think it through and post again.
Those quests made you feel like you were actually a part of the world. Nothing in BC comes even close.
Well I have to say that the sons of Gruul questline (that opens up access to the Ogri'la quest hub and faction) made me feel like I was changing the world. It involves you killing the four remaining sons of Gruul (you kill the first three in other quests). After you kill the final son, you are titled the King or Queen (as is appropriate for your character's gender) of the Ogres. After that all the Ogres in Blade's Edge Mountain (or at least a majority of them) are neutral to you. You can kill them if you want to or need to, but they won't attack their King or Queen. As you walk by them they will say stuff to you. If you dance or wave or do other emotes they will respond. If you attack them, as they fight back they will say stuff like "If King/Queen (name) says for me to die, me die then." It really does feel like you're making an effect.
Also, I've gathered that there's a very cool long questline for the Mag'har on the Horde side. The Greatmother questline. Being that I've primarily played Alliance, I wouldn't know the details, but I feel it's a pity that there is no counterpart for it in Telaar.
For me I really like reading the quests, but I have to break myself of the bad habit of skipping through quest text now, since I've begun playing on my new Blood Elf Paladin. I got into the habit because I played fully through on the Alliance side twice, and on the second go around I knew what most of the quests said. The few I didn't do my first time through I made sure I read, but I got into the habit of just skipping through. Now I need to break that habit. ^^;
On topic, I agree Ikuturso and theMonk. There's no way to make people read the quests and feel the lore. Even if you remove a short quest descriptor at the top or bottom of a quest, people will just train themselves to look for key terms in the quest text, or make mods that pick out those terms, highlight those words so they can "skip the worthless stuff". For many people the goal is getting to a certain level and doing their version of endgame stuff. The quests are just an easy method of getting there. The journey isn't the purpose, so much as the goal, and that's not a flaw that any game design can ever "fix".
Well I have to say that the sons of Gruul questline (that opens up access to the Ogri'la quest hub and faction) made me feel like I was changing the world. It involves you killing the four remaining sons of Gruul (you kill the first three in other quests). After you kill the final son, you are titled the King or Queen (as is appropriate for your character's gender) of the Ogres. After that all the Ogres in Blade's Edge Mountain (or at least a majority of them) are neutral to you. You can kill them if you want to or need to, but they won't attack their King or Queen. As you walk by them they will say stuff to you. If you dance or wave or do other emotes they will respond. If you attack them, as they fight back they will say stuff like "If King/Queen (name) says for me to die, me die then." It really does feel like you're making an effect.
Also, I've gathered that there's a very cool long questline for the Mag'har on the Horde side. The Greatmother questline. Being that I've primarily played Alliance, I wouldn't know the details, but I feel it's a pity that there is no counterpart for it in Telaar.
For me I really like reading the quests, but I have to break myself of the bad habit of skipping through quest text now, since I've begun playing on my new Blood Elf Paladin. I got into the habit because I played fully through on the Alliance side twice, and on the second go around I knew what most of the quests said. The few I didn't do my first time through I made sure I read, but I got into the habit of just skipping through. Now I need to break that habit. ^^;
On topic, I agree Ikuturso and theMonk. There's no way to make people read the quests and feel the lore. Even if you remove a short quest descriptor at the top or bottom of a quest, people will just train themselves to look for key terms in the quest text, or make mods that pick out those terms, highlight those words so they can "skip the worthless stuff". For many people the goal is getting to a certain level and doing their version of endgame stuff. The quests are just an easy method of getting there. The journey isn't the purpose, so much as the goal, and that's not a flaw that any game design can ever "fix".
There are legitimate problems with the genre to complain about but this isn't one of them. It's like complaining that a good book is too long and jumping to the end. Seriously, if you can't enjoy the Ghostlands - it's time to find a new hobby.
# posted by : 13/8/07 18:09
: 13/8/07 18:09
To =##= I finally dinged 70 on my Main (with Alt#1 at 66) and saw how much of a Rep Grind I had ahead of me to raid Heroics with my Guildmates, and after 2 1/2 years in-game I could no longer be bothered logging in. Thanks heavens I found WildTangent's RPG "Fate" (Diablo-clone).
But after a week off I logged in to WoW and jumped on a lowbie Alt and started having fun again. It's still grinding, but every hour or two there's a flash of light and my Alt is a tiny bit stronger. Good Lord! I've become a real American with a horribly short attention span needing instant gratification!
I like Julian's idea about Farmer Blah being unable to get home because of the 10 Foozles blocking the road, and after killing the Foozles you have to see him home to get the Quest Complete. The one problem I see with that is the same problem Alliance run into in Westfall.
DT: "Follow me, CapnJohn, I'll take you to the Defias hideout. But you better protect me or I'm as good as dead."
Defias Traitor has died!!!
Quest Failed!!!
CJ: WTF???
Stabby: KEK!
Combat Log...
Stabby's Ambush Crits Defias Traitor for 5,284.
So I can see a similar thing happening.
Farmer Blah: Thanks for clearing out those Foozles , Capn John. Come with me to my farm and I'll reward you.
Farmer Blah has died!!!
Quest Failed!!!
CJ: WTF???
Stabby: KEK!
Combat Log...
Stabby's Backstab Crits Farmer Blah for 2,561.
Aah, Stabby. You've done it again.
/golfclap Stabby
But after a week off I logged in to WoW and jumped on a lowbie Alt and started having fun again. It's still grinding, but every hour or two there's a flash of light and my Alt is a tiny bit stronger. Good Lord! I've become a real American with a horribly short attention span needing instant gratification!
I like Julian's idea about Farmer Blah being unable to get home because of the 10 Foozles blocking the road, and after killing the Foozles you have to see him home to get the Quest Complete. The one problem I see with that is the same problem Alliance run into in Westfall.
DT: "Follow me, CapnJohn, I'll take you to the Defias hideout. But you better protect me or I'm as good as dead."
Defias Traitor has died!!!
Quest Failed!!!
CJ: WTF???
Stabby: KEK!
Combat Log...
Stabby's Ambush Crits Defias Traitor for 5,284.
So I can see a similar thing happening.
Farmer Blah: Thanks for clearing out those Foozles , Capn John. Come with me to my farm and I'll reward you.
Farmer Blah has died!!!
Quest Failed!!!
CJ: WTF???
Stabby: KEK!
Combat Log...
Stabby's Backstab Crits Farmer Blah for 2,561.
Aah, Stabby. You've done it again.
/golfclap Stabby
Let me expound on my earlier post.
What I'm getting at is that our expectations should be grounded in the understanding that we're dealing with limitations; both technological and financial.
Eventually, A.I. and home computers will be advanced enough to make that curtain about as hard to notice as you'd ever want it to be but not quite yet, so if all you can see is the basic structure of the genre and take no joy in the skin that surrounds it, just wait ten years and come back - maybe things will be up to your speed by then.
I don't mean to be flippant, but it serves no purpose to have unreasonable expectations.
What I'm getting at is that our expectations should be grounded in the understanding that we're dealing with limitations; both technological and financial.
Eventually, A.I. and home computers will be advanced enough to make that curtain about as hard to notice as you'd ever want it to be but not quite yet, so if all you can see is the basic structure of the genre and take no joy in the skin that surrounds it, just wait ten years and come back - maybe things will be up to your speed by then.
I don't mean to be flippant, but it serves no purpose to have unreasonable expectations.
# posted by : 13/8/07 20:04
: 13/8/07 20:04
Here is my solution for forcing players to read the quest. Unfortunately, Blizzard knows their business, and they know that most customers could give a rats a$$ about reading every quest.
I grew up playing Nintendo. I played Metroid before the concept of "strategy Guide" existed. In order to prove to myself that I found everything, I had to map out the entire game screen by screen on poster board (remember, no strategy guides and the internet didn't exist). A few months later the very first "Official Nintendo Power Strategy Guide" came out. I checked my map against theirs and was totally joyfull that I had it right in every way. That effort made an impression on me that will last a lifetime.
Fast forward to today...
Every player that is worth his weight knows where all the rescources are to get the answers. For WoW players, tabbing out to Thottbot, WowWiki, Allakazham etc., will get you the exact location of the quest item, the best way to farm said mats, and the reward that awaits you at the end of the quest chain.
Gone are the days of truly earning your reward. Yes, you can ignore all the resources. But you know what they say about necessity, it is the mother of invention. Many players who would have made everlasting memories by solving a quest on their own, know that they are a web click away from the answer. This makes all but the most diehard, self controlled, fans hard pressed to ignore those resources.
In order to fix this, that is, fix the necessity of quest reading, you have to take away the resources which make the quest text useless. There is only one way to do that. You need to randomize the quest requirements, kill locations, and text clues. Now before you dismiss this as "random generated events are not as good as scripted", that's not what I'm talking about. I want scripted events. Keep the end reward constant. Keep the quest plot relevant. But randomize the task required. Not just A B or C versions. Randomize it to the point that no web resource will give you the answer. If you have to find someone, make sure that location is different for each player. If you have to kill X number of creatures, make sure it's not the same for each player.
If we take away the ability to catalog all the quests of a game, while making sure the scripted plot and reward is preserved, I think necessity for reading a quest will return.
I grew up playing Nintendo. I played Metroid before the concept of "strategy Guide" existed. In order to prove to myself that I found everything, I had to map out the entire game screen by screen on poster board (remember, no strategy guides and the internet didn't exist). A few months later the very first "Official Nintendo Power Strategy Guide" came out. I checked my map against theirs and was totally joyfull that I had it right in every way. That effort made an impression on me that will last a lifetime.
Fast forward to today...
Every player that is worth his weight knows where all the rescources are to get the answers. For WoW players, tabbing out to Thottbot, WowWiki, Allakazham etc., will get you the exact location of the quest item, the best way to farm said mats, and the reward that awaits you at the end of the quest chain.
Gone are the days of truly earning your reward. Yes, you can ignore all the resources. But you know what they say about necessity, it is the mother of invention. Many players who would have made everlasting memories by solving a quest on their own, know that they are a web click away from the answer. This makes all but the most diehard, self controlled, fans hard pressed to ignore those resources.
In order to fix this, that is, fix the necessity of quest reading, you have to take away the resources which make the quest text useless. There is only one way to do that. You need to randomize the quest requirements, kill locations, and text clues. Now before you dismiss this as "random generated events are not as good as scripted", that's not what I'm talking about. I want scripted events. Keep the end reward constant. Keep the quest plot relevant. But randomize the task required. Not just A B or C versions. Randomize it to the point that no web resource will give you the answer. If you have to find someone, make sure that location is different for each player. If you have to kill X number of creatures, make sure it's not the same for each player.
If we take away the ability to catalog all the quests of a game, while making sure the scripted plot and reward is preserved, I think necessity for reading a quest will return.
# posted by : 13/8/07 23:28
: 13/8/07 23:28
I think most gamers skip the text the second time but not the first. It's only an issue when grinding through STV for the 5th damn time.
/sigh
/sigh
# posted by : 14/8/07 00:36
: 14/8/07 00:36
Excellent article. I know that for me, it takes a concerted, conscious effort to *slow down* and read the quest text, enjoy the story for what it is, etc. I've definitely fallen into the trap of *click click click* and get the quest into the journal asap. When I stop and think about it, I think about the guys who wrote all those stories, all those quests, all that dialogue...and for what? To be completely ignored?
I try to slow down my gameplay when it comes to quests, to appreciate the work that's gone into it and enjoy the story. BUT, there are times when I don't, as you put it, care about the farmer's foozle problem. I just want to complete the qeust so I can get my xp, money and/or loot and move on with things.
I'm sure devs would love for everyone to slow down their gameplay 30% and smell the roses more. It would mean we'd all be playing (and paying) longer. But until there can really be an engaging story delivered in a unique and fun way, I'm sure we'll all be clicking like madmen.
I try to slow down my gameplay when it comes to quests, to appreciate the work that's gone into it and enjoy the story. BUT, there are times when I don't, as you put it, care about the farmer's foozle problem. I just want to complete the qeust so I can get my xp, money and/or loot and move on with things.
I'm sure devs would love for everyone to slow down their gameplay 30% and smell the roses more. It would mean we'd all be playing (and paying) longer. But until there can really be an engaging story delivered in a unique and fun way, I'm sure we'll all be clicking like madmen.
My therapist here at the center said is should preface everything with "I feel that":
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pope guilty is right about short term goals, we hairless monkeys love that stuff.
anselem's comment is spot on.
capn john assertions are also quite valid.
I would like to point out that Fate (and other roguelikes; where my nethack bros at?) is randomized in a manner suggested by anselem and it is refreshing after a wow session. But there is something about craft that blizzard does right, it just takes a patience-tryingly long time to develop the conent .
PS. Guild wars has lovely cut-scenes and an engaging world quest. But woe be to the newbie trying to watch the lovingly crafted cut-scene while in a group of 4 jaded players: WTF! WHY YOU NO SKIP? I've been on both ends of that sword.
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pope guilty is right about short term goals, we hairless monkeys love that stuff.
anselem's comment is spot on.
capn john assertions are also quite valid.
I would like to point out that Fate (and other roguelikes; where my nethack bros at?) is randomized in a manner suggested by anselem and it is refreshing after a wow session. But there is something about craft that blizzard does right, it just takes a patience-tryingly long time to develop the conent .
PS. Guild wars has lovely cut-scenes and an engaging world quest. But woe be to the newbie trying to watch the lovingly crafted cut-scene while in a group of 4 jaded players: WTF! WHY YOU NO SKIP? I've been on both ends of that sword.
# posted by : 14/8/07 05:01
: 14/8/07 05:01
anselm, perhaps Blizzard should spend a bit more time on some of their quests descriptions.
I do not want to grind 500 mobs on the off-chance that one of them will have the item I'm looking for.
For example, there is an Alliance quest in Ashenvale where you have to look for a certain object, but you only know it was lost east of the road to the Barrens.
How vague is that? After you've spent an hour wandering aimlessly around killing mobs, getting extremely drustrated, you give up and resort to Thottbot. Then you find out it's in a box that a slime ate. Not good enough.
I do not want to grind 500 mobs on the off-chance that one of them will have the item I'm looking for.
For example, there is an Alliance quest in Ashenvale where you have to look for a certain object, but you only know it was lost east of the road to the Barrens.
How vague is that? After you've spent an hour wandering aimlessly around killing mobs, getting extremely drustrated, you give up and resort to Thottbot. Then you find out it's in a box that a slime ate. Not good enough.
# posted by : 14/8/07 11:28
: 14/8/07 11:28
Yeah the random drop quests are rough, and some of their quest descriptions are horrible. I remember a quest in Netherstorm that gave the completely wrong area. If not for Thottot I would have given up and moved on.
But is that so bad? As accomplished game players we expect to find EVERY reward and event the game has to offer. One of the problems with catering to that is having a group of high end players that have exactly the same gear and experiences.
What I wouldn't give to stumble upon a cave, that seemingly has no in game purpose other than mob population, only to have the game give me a random chance message like "You suspect something is not right here and decide to go in to investigate". At that point the cave has purpose for ME. The next player to find that cave has a one time shot at getting that messsage. If they don't, the cave will forever have no purpose for that hero.
I don't want Blizz to give vague quests anonymous, but I also wouldn't mind having my adventuring experience be unique to my journey. Take away the ability to catalogue quests on Thottbot, by randomizing non plot driven elements, and I think that's what you would get.
Sure, you would quit many quests in frustration. Sure, your friend will have an item from a quest you can't seem to find. But imagine the stories you would tell in great detail from the memories those greater challenges would create.
But is that so bad? As accomplished game players we expect to find EVERY reward and event the game has to offer. One of the problems with catering to that is having a group of high end players that have exactly the same gear and experiences.
What I wouldn't give to stumble upon a cave, that seemingly has no in game purpose other than mob population, only to have the game give me a random chance message like "You suspect something is not right here and decide to go in to investigate". At that point the cave has purpose for ME. The next player to find that cave has a one time shot at getting that messsage. If they don't, the cave will forever have no purpose for that hero.
I don't want Blizz to give vague quests anonymous, but I also wouldn't mind having my adventuring experience be unique to my journey. Take away the ability to catalogue quests on Thottbot, by randomizing non plot driven elements, and I think that's what you would get.
Sure, you would quit many quests in frustration. Sure, your friend will have an item from a quest you can't seem to find. But imagine the stories you would tell in great detail from the memories those greater challenges would create.
# posted by : 14/8/07 17:29
: 14/8/07 17:29
Personally, I'd love to see more early on group quests. Add to that I'd like those quests to be more adventure-driven than quota-driven (e.g., visit the crypts of faldor and investigate the evil vs. kill xx foozles).
Instancing quests would be great as it would give players immersion into a location. Include various goals within the instance to be obtained, completed, or defeated to make the whole run worthwhile. Chain those goals within the instance to give players reason to complete it. Put reset timers in so players can come back and complete links in the chain after they level or get better gear.
Getting that old-school dungeon adventure atmosphere going with the inclusion of goal-driven quests might just take the grind out of the game.
Instancing quests would be great as it would give players immersion into a location. Include various goals within the instance to be obtained, completed, or defeated to make the whole run worthwhile. Chain those goals within the instance to give players reason to complete it. Put reset timers in so players can come back and complete links in the chain after they level or get better gear.
Getting that old-school dungeon adventure atmosphere going with the inclusion of goal-driven quests might just take the grind out of the game.
# posted by : 14/8/07 23:37
: 14/8/07 23:37
I agree with a lot of what has already been said. The first levels in WoW and LoTRO were awesome. It's like the content was "rich" enough that you didn't even notice the underlying mechanics. As the levels advanced, however, the content no longer stretched over the machine beneath and that, I think, is when things become a grind.
Give me a quest to kill 1000 floozles, but make it fun and I'll do it happily. Give me a quest to kill 5 and have killing them be the sole thing going on in the quest and I'll gripe about it the whole time.
Give me a quest to kill 1000 floozles, but make it fun and I'll do it happily. Give me a quest to kill 5 and have killing them be the sole thing going on in the quest and I'll gripe about it the whole time.
A follow-up...
I'm not sure, but I believe that Tobold quit WoW before the patch that implemented Daily Quests.
Daily Quests are an interesting tangent in the 'grind' discussion. Though pulling in ~12g for a few minutes of 'work' doesn't feel much like a 'grind'.
I'm not sure, but I believe that Tobold quit WoW before the patch that implemented Daily Quests.
Daily Quests are an interesting tangent in the 'grind' discussion. Though pulling in ~12g for a few minutes of 'work' doesn't feel much like a 'grind'.
# posted by : 22/8/07 14:51
: 22/8/07 14:51
I used to read every quest, until I found that my reading of the quest text could be interrupted by another player interacting with the quest-giver in some way. Like an early Night Elf quest, you trick a satyr into drinking something that turns him into a frog. If I'm still reading the quest text when someone else does that part of the chain, then I have to wait a minute or so to get the quest back. And then risk interruption from someone else.
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