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Wednesday, November 28, 2007
Rewarding players for what they are doing
The first MMORPG I played was Ultima Online, and UO doesn't have levels. Instead it has skills for about everything you can do, so if you fight you gain skill points in fighting, and if you tailor you gain skill points in tailoring. Every single skill can get up to 100 points, and the sum of all skills together can't exceed 700 points. Thus everyone can create his own character class, mastering 7 different skills to maximum, or even distribute the points further. The general idea behind this concept is that the rewards that lead to character development are given out for whatever the player wants to do, and they are given in a form where he gets better in what he is doing, without getting better in other activities.
The other extreme of reward models is a pure level-based one. Whatever you do earns you experience points, which make you go up in level. And then the success of what you are doing depends on your level. Again you are rewarded for whatever you are doing, and your character develops and gets better, but there is only one way to count progress, and different activities all add to this one count, your level.
World of Warcraft is mainly level-based, but in fact has a hybrid model in some other areas. Many activities like solo PvE combat, group PvE combat, questing, or exploring new areas all give the same sort of xp that make your level go up. But for example crafting doesn't earn you any xp, you get skill points in the tradeskill you are doing. And PvP doesn't give xp either, instead you get honor, badges, and arena points. The problem is that your success in crafting or PvP still depends very much on your level. You can't get past certain crafting skill point caps unless you are of a certain level. And of course your level determines your power in PvP and your chance of success there. You can't make a pure crafter or pure PvPer in WoW.
Our recent discussion of class roles promptly spawned the old discussion in the comments of whether a MMORPG is for group play or for solo play. The answer is obviously: for both. The more different activities a MMORPG offers, the better it is. It is good that you can log into WoW and decide to solo, to play in a small group, or in a large group, to PvE, to PvP, to craft, or just to hang out and chat. If there is a problem, it is in the reward structure and the character development:
With World of Warcraft getting older, the large majority of players is at the level cap. By definition for group play you need other players, and because of the way WoW handles it you need players of around your own level. Thus most group activity, and *all* raid activity, as well as most PvP activity, takes place at the level cap. Somebody who creates a new character and wants to participate in all of these activities has to level up as quickly as possible to get to the level cap, so he can group with other players, or fight them in the arena. But the fastest way to level is solo play, so between 90% and 100% of the experience point needed to reach the level cap are earned soloing. Only then do you reach the point where you really have the full choice of all the activities that WoW offers. At lower levels you could still group and do some battleground PvP, but not to the extent that is possible at the level cap.
This obviously goes totally against the original principle of doing the activity you like, and by doing so getting better at it. Nearly all of the rewards (except the fluff) you get for doing things raises what I call your meta-level, a combined power score which adds your gear to your level. Of course at the level cap you *could* do PvP to get better at PvP. But you could also raid to get better at PvP, or craft yourself some gear to get better at group PvE. The rewards aren't very specific to the activity you are doing. And in the end it diminishes that great choice of what kind of game activity you would most like to participate in. You want to raid? Well, then solo to 70, do small groups to equip yourself, and craft the consumables you need for raiding. You're forced through a lot of stuff you didn't want to do just to arrive at the place you want to go. The system also causes lots of problems with regards to class roles. Some classes perform different roles in different environments, others are doing more similar things. But all the functions of a class have to be balanced for all environments, solo, group, raid, and various forms of PvP. And as you only see the aggregate score, the level, you can't look at a character and see how skilled he is at performing the different class roles.
So I was wondering whether it wouldn't be better to unravel the level system, and rather give out scores for different activities. For example you could have a solo level, a group level, and a PvP level. If you wanted to participate in end-game raiding, you would need to raise your group level by playing in groups, and soloing wouldn't help you to advance. Your different levels would reflect more closely the different activities that you pursued, and thus also tell more about the player skills you picked up on the way. If you needed lets say group level 70 to raid, and could only get there by leveling up in groups, one could be pretty certain that you learned notions of aggro management on the way. Your solo level or PvP level would be irrelevant to your power in group combat, so nobody would be forced to engage in a type of gameplay he didn't want. But by making group play the condition for group endgame play, there would be far more opportunities to group at lower levels. But unlike the original Everquest, which *only* had group play, there would still be the possibility to solo, or to PvP, and to gain levels in those activities, independant from your group level. You could level up all three if you wanted to, or you could concentrate on the areas you liked more. You would be rewarded for the activity you are actually doing, and the reward only developed your character in that direction, so you wouldn't need to do an unrelated activity to advance.
World of Warcraft is so big that often people get the impression that this is the final word in MMORPG development. Far from it! WoW certainly has refined and polished many of the existing concepts of the genre. But that doesn't mean that better ways don't exist. By observing the obvious flaws of the WoW level system, maybe a future game can come up with a better system of rewarding players for what they are doing, and making that reward relevant to character development in that specific sort of gameplay.
- posted by Tobold @ 6:55 AM Permanent Link
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VERY nice post, Tobold. Sound, in-depth and constructive. Thumbs up!
I can see both benefits and drawbacks with your multiple-levels system.
It's an obvious benefit that I don't have to spent time on parts of the gameplay I don't like. E.g. I wouldn't need to grind PvE-levels, if all care about is the PvP aspects of the game.
Class balancing also would become much easier for developers, as it's a more flexible system, when your character is (in a sense) a compound of different classes.
On the other hand, it separates the playerbase even more effectively than the single-level system. If you suddenly get the urge to help out your friends in another aspect of the gameplay, say group-PvE, you have to start from scratch levelling up, before even thinking about it.
Nevertheless, this drawback might be insignificant compared to the benefits.
I can see both benefits and drawbacks with your multiple-levels system.
It's an obvious benefit that I don't have to spent time on parts of the gameplay I don't like. E.g. I wouldn't need to grind PvE-levels, if all care about is the PvP aspects of the game.
Class balancing also would become much easier for developers, as it's a more flexible system, when your character is (in a sense) a compound of different classes.
On the other hand, it separates the playerbase even more effectively than the single-level system. If you suddenly get the urge to help out your friends in another aspect of the gameplay, say group-PvE, you have to start from scratch levelling up, before even thinking about it.
Nevertheless, this drawback might be insignificant compared to the benefits.
One easy way to improve WoW would be "proper" loot. It's annoying that one can go to the AH and buy some green piece of gear that someone else got as a random drop from a random mob and that is better than what you get as quest rewards for the next 10 levels. Quest rewards, with a few exceptions, are much worse than random world drops and thus WoW rewards more the "luck" side of playing or the "finantial" side where you get to have the gold to buy that stuff, than it does reward the proper completion of quests.
Add to this that the very few quest rewards that are worth it are mostly dungeon quest rewards and those are harder to do for pre-TBC levels now that everyone and their uncle is in Outlands.
Of course, Outlands quest rewards are a bit different, with green items better than your hard-won blues from Azeroth...
Add to this that the very few quest rewards that are worth it are mostly dungeon quest rewards and those are harder to do for pre-TBC levels now that everyone and their uncle is in Outlands.
Of course, Outlands quest rewards are a bit different, with green items better than your hard-won blues from Azeroth...
# posted by 
: 28/11/07 13:21
: 28/11/07 13:21
I regards to the 2nd poster, I think Blizzard has done an excellent job with the quest rewards in TBC as opposed to original WoW. They are more pertinent to the PVE experience and actually sought after as pieces of gear. The only time I can ever remember actively chasing a quest in old WoW for the reward was the (then) newly released warlock rewards at 50.
To Tobold: the notion of multi-path leveling is definitely an interesting one, but like the first comment said, it creates total segregation. I personally like how WoW allows players to switch from one aspect of the game to the other with little difficulty, outside of gear and talent configurations. I don't think I'd be alone in voicing just how disheartening it would be to hit 70 in the solo world, knowing that I have another 70 levels to go in group PVE if I want to raid. As a "skill check" the multi-path system would have to only reward players who did "well", which in a group environment can be highly subjective. Did you truly contribute to downing that boss, or was the group good enough to do it without you? Notionally I can see where you were going, and would love to see further analysis of just how that would work.
I most agee with the point about players being forced into roles far different in group play than in solo play. As my main is a 'lock I don't suffer from this at all, but I can understand the plight of the protection warrior. The only thing I can think of to improve the situation is providing talents or buffs that can only be used when the player is not grouped with anyone, such as converting a percentage of Defense to Attack Power. Prot Warriors would still be sub-par in PVP, but at least they'd be able to kill faster in PVE while fighting alone.
To Tobold: the notion of multi-path leveling is definitely an interesting one, but like the first comment said, it creates total segregation. I personally like how WoW allows players to switch from one aspect of the game to the other with little difficulty, outside of gear and talent configurations. I don't think I'd be alone in voicing just how disheartening it would be to hit 70 in the solo world, knowing that I have another 70 levels to go in group PVE if I want to raid. As a "skill check" the multi-path system would have to only reward players who did "well", which in a group environment can be highly subjective. Did you truly contribute to downing that boss, or was the group good enough to do it without you? Notionally I can see where you were going, and would love to see further analysis of just how that would work.
I most agee with the point about players being forced into roles far different in group play than in solo play. As my main is a 'lock I don't suffer from this at all, but I can understand the plight of the protection warrior. The only thing I can think of to improve the situation is providing talents or buffs that can only be used when the player is not grouped with anyone, such as converting a percentage of Defense to Attack Power. Prot Warriors would still be sub-par in PVP, but at least they'd be able to kill faster in PVE while fighting alone.
# posted by : 28/11/07 14:14
: 28/11/07 14:14
I like the idea in concept. Would there be an Ebay level? =)
Another difference between MMMORPGs and traditional PnP's is concepts like epic or prestige classes (to take d20) that require prerequisite class levels/skills of certain combinations to access. In an MMORPG all classes are basically available for the entire game and you only get one choice.
If you used your three tier leveling system: solo, group, PvP you could add in upper class content based on the different combinations brought together. It would be inserting new classes at higher levels, and all the implied programming/testing. But a metalevel70 with 35 in PvP and 35 in Group might qualify for the PvP Raider which, as a prestige class, has additional advantages in say RvR situations (siege craft whatever your flavor). Whereas a dominantly solo character (65 levels in solo) may get access to upper level classes that aid their soloing, since obviously that's the activty they are pusruing.
Throw a handful of combined level prereq prestige classes out there aligned along the basic roles: a few for tank, a few for DPS, a few for DD etc. and you again create the perception of choice and differentiation, based on chosen activities, at the upper levels. Tie those rewards into specific game mechanics (my combo class is better at PvP than just my earned meta levels in PvP) and it becomes meaningful.
Another difference between MMMORPGs and traditional PnP's is concepts like epic or prestige classes (to take d20) that require prerequisite class levels/skills of certain combinations to access. In an MMORPG all classes are basically available for the entire game and you only get one choice.
If you used your three tier leveling system: solo, group, PvP you could add in upper class content based on the different combinations brought together. It would be inserting new classes at higher levels, and all the implied programming/testing. But a metalevel70 with 35 in PvP and 35 in Group might qualify for the PvP Raider which, as a prestige class, has additional advantages in say RvR situations (siege craft whatever your flavor). Whereas a dominantly solo character (65 levels in solo) may get access to upper level classes that aid their soloing, since obviously that's the activty they are pusruing.
Throw a handful of combined level prereq prestige classes out there aligned along the basic roles: a few for tank, a few for DPS, a few for DD etc. and you again create the perception of choice and differentiation, based on chosen activities, at the upper levels. Tie those rewards into specific game mechanics (my combo class is better at PvP than just my earned meta levels in PvP) and it becomes meaningful.
What the first poster an anonymous are raising as concerns is not fundamentally tied to segregation of roles, but to the time investment of leveling and the permanancy of levels earned. Create an innovative, yet simple way to remove the permanancy of levels earned in a specific role and you solve that problem.
Your metalevel 70 character is 65 solo, but you find out you really want to group. Go to the appropriate merchant/function, submit 40 levels into the "respec to Group" bucket. Perhaps then you can go out and begin re-earning those levels at 5 or 10 times the the normal XP rate "earning back" the levels you respecced by playing in groups from newbie zone up through raid content. Or it takes X weeks of playing at a lower level while your 40 switch over, or whatever. You're still putting time into learning your new role, but the time is fractional compared to your initial investment. Permanacy of levels chosen is removed, previous time investment is respected, but does not become a limiter to change. Or you could just make it a honking quest to change, but then you aren't requiring anyone to learn their new role, and you may have level 70 group tanks out there again not knowing how to manage aggro.
Your metalevel 70 character is 65 solo, but you find out you really want to group. Go to the appropriate merchant/function, submit 40 levels into the "respec to Group" bucket. Perhaps then you can go out and begin re-earning those levels at 5 or 10 times the the normal XP rate "earning back" the levels you respecced by playing in groups from newbie zone up through raid content. Or it takes X weeks of playing at a lower level while your 40 switch over, or whatever. You're still putting time into learning your new role, but the time is fractional compared to your initial investment. Permanacy of levels chosen is removed, previous time investment is respected, but does not become a limiter to change. Or you could just make it a honking quest to change, but then you aren't requiring anyone to learn their new role, and you may have level 70 group tanks out there again not knowing how to manage aggro.
I liked everything up until this part: "so between 90% and 100% of the experience point needed to reach the level cap are earned soloing"
We'd need to adjust that figure for PVP realms. Those folk do not level alone nearly as much as you can on our pve/carebear servers. They level each other almost entirely inside instances, in groups, to avoid "teh ganking lol" as they put it.
It's also why they're better at the game than everyone else; including pve. Check the "tbc complete" guilds on wowjutsu and see that all the horde guilds that killed illidan before august were ALL members of pvp realms, except one.
I promise you they didn't get 90% of their experience outside and soloing.
We'd need to adjust that figure for PVP realms. Those folk do not level alone nearly as much as you can on our pve/carebear servers. They level each other almost entirely inside instances, in groups, to avoid "teh ganking lol" as they put it.
It's also why they're better at the game than everyone else; including pve. Check the "tbc complete" guilds on wowjutsu and see that all the horde guilds that killed illidan before august were ALL members of pvp realms, except one.
I promise you they didn't get 90% of their experience outside and soloing.
# posted by : 28/11/07 15:00
: 28/11/07 15:00
My guess is a lot of what people are suggesting is hard. WoW seems to strive for simplicity.
EQ2 has a complex crafting system that I enjoyed. It was definitely a hardcore crafting system. You could even spend all your time in it, if you could find enough customers.
FFXI crafting was stupid hard. Although there were only 100 crafting points, they went up by .1 so in reality there was 1000. Talk about a time and money sink, ugh.
WoW crafting is suppose to support leveling. Its a classic RPG. You kill stuff, you get stuff and you discover stuff. The one thing I think is missing is a better narrative. FFXI had a good one, complete with cut scenes. Its a good hardcore game that requires a lot of time and teamwork. Not exactly a solo players haven.
There is certainly room for improvement to make the various pieces of the game accessible to normal players along their quest to become 70. However, you can solo, group, and PVP (BG). Arena and raids is still left to the higher level players. Its really the "after-game". Soloing, grouping and BG at 70 is to support Arena and raids. To fill the time in between those activities or get ready for them. Part of the progression that WoW has set.
I'm not against large improvements. I am just wary of changing too much that seems to work pretty well right now. You can change details of the game, but its really hard to change the essense of the game. If you don't like the essense of WoW or become tired of it, it would require a substantial change to change your mind about it.
EQ2 has a complex crafting system that I enjoyed. It was definitely a hardcore crafting system. You could even spend all your time in it, if you could find enough customers.
FFXI crafting was stupid hard. Although there were only 100 crafting points, they went up by .1 so in reality there was 1000. Talk about a time and money sink, ugh.
WoW crafting is suppose to support leveling. Its a classic RPG. You kill stuff, you get stuff and you discover stuff. The one thing I think is missing is a better narrative. FFXI had a good one, complete with cut scenes. Its a good hardcore game that requires a lot of time and teamwork. Not exactly a solo players haven.
There is certainly room for improvement to make the various pieces of the game accessible to normal players along their quest to become 70. However, you can solo, group, and PVP (BG). Arena and raids is still left to the higher level players. Its really the "after-game". Soloing, grouping and BG at 70 is to support Arena and raids. To fill the time in between those activities or get ready for them. Part of the progression that WoW has set.
I'm not against large improvements. I am just wary of changing too much that seems to work pretty well right now. You can change details of the game, but its really hard to change the essense of the game. If you don't like the essense of WoW or become tired of it, it would require a substantial change to change your mind about it.
# posted by : 28/11/07 15:25
: 28/11/07 15:25
I think this is a step in the wrong direction. It's hard enough to find good groups as is, and it'd ruin PvP for us casual PvPers.
Tobold, you've mentioned the whole problem with having to grind to 70. Now, you're talking about grinding in 3 different directions to 70. I want to be able to play *with* my friends, not have to grind with random folks to 70 first in order to catch up.
Yes, I'm a casual player. I occasionally do 5 mans, some PvP, and the occasional raid. If WoW were to switch to the 3 tier system, I'd never experience end game in all 3.
With PvP, you can be an undergeared player and still do ok in the larger Battlegrounds. Sure, you'll get pwned in the Arena, but you can still be effective in the other events. The last thing I'd want to do is be forced to have to grind in PvP. I've never had High Warlords gear in mind, but with the current system, I even picked up my first piece from season 1 this week. That's so much better than a level system.
And to get to 70 in the Group tier, would that mean that I have to use PUGs to get XP? Shudder. I can't see that working. Same goes for having to have my friends power level me all the way to 70.
On a positive note, it is good to have these discussions. At least it will clarify for each of us what we like and don't like about MMORPGs.
Tobold, you've mentioned the whole problem with having to grind to 70. Now, you're talking about grinding in 3 different directions to 70. I want to be able to play *with* my friends, not have to grind with random folks to 70 first in order to catch up.
Yes, I'm a casual player. I occasionally do 5 mans, some PvP, and the occasional raid. If WoW were to switch to the 3 tier system, I'd never experience end game in all 3.
With PvP, you can be an undergeared player and still do ok in the larger Battlegrounds. Sure, you'll get pwned in the Arena, but you can still be effective in the other events. The last thing I'd want to do is be forced to have to grind in PvP. I've never had High Warlords gear in mind, but with the current system, I even picked up my first piece from season 1 this week. That's so much better than a level system.
And to get to 70 in the Group tier, would that mean that I have to use PUGs to get XP? Shudder. I can't see that working. Same goes for having to have my friends power level me all the way to 70.
On a positive note, it is good to have these discussions. At least it will clarify for each of us what we like and don't like about MMORPGs.
# posted by : 28/11/07 15:39
: 28/11/07 15:39
"Now, you're talking about grinding in 3 different directions to 70. I want to be able to play *with* my friends, not have to grind with random folks to 70 first in order to catch up."
This is a very valid concern.
But it seems like you're assuming, with multi-path leveling the game gets proportional more time-consuming (3 paths = 3 x effort).
I'd expect the total meta-leveling time (say, from 1 - 70 in WOW) to be just as short/long as in a single-path version.
The difference would be that as e.g. a WOW-warrior, you learn your tank abilities in group-play, your damageburst abilities in PvP, and your 'grinding' abilities in solo-PvE.
This is a very valid concern.
But it seems like you're assuming, with multi-path leveling the game gets proportional more time-consuming (3 paths = 3 x effort).
I'd expect the total meta-leveling time (say, from 1 - 70 in WOW) to be just as short/long as in a single-path version.
The difference would be that as e.g. a WOW-warrior, you learn your tank abilities in group-play, your damageburst abilities in PvP, and your 'grinding' abilities in solo-PvE.
If your solo-, PvP- and group-progress are completely separated, that would almost feel like leveling three different characters, there needs to be some overlap. I think that in making resilience a stat required for PvP and useless for PvE, Blizzard has taken a first step in that direction. Note that there's some balance: high-end arena gear allows you to skip the pre-Karazhan instances, but won't get you through Black Temple.
But that's at level 70; what you're suggesting would have to start much earlier. This is where WoW starts to feel like three different games, a singleplayer game 1-69, and then two different games (raiding PvE and PvP) tacked onto it at 70.
A game designed with a PvP progression from level 1 would also need a completely different view of class balance. The philosophy of WoW is that the classes are rock-paper-scissors. The problem is that it's just frustrating to spend five months leveling up a scissor, only to find out that 70% of the playerbase plays rock.
Note that Warhammer Online has essentially the same rock-paper-scissors design. This is the main thing that makes me doubt it will be the PvP-revelation that I so much hope it to be.
But that's at level 70; what you're suggesting would have to start much earlier. This is where WoW starts to feel like three different games, a singleplayer game 1-69, and then two different games (raiding PvE and PvP) tacked onto it at 70.
A game designed with a PvP progression from level 1 would also need a completely different view of class balance. The philosophy of WoW is that the classes are rock-paper-scissors. The problem is that it's just frustrating to spend five months leveling up a scissor, only to find out that 70% of the playerbase plays rock.
Note that Warhammer Online has essentially the same rock-paper-scissors design. This is the main thing that makes me doubt it will be the PvP-revelation that I so much hope it to be.
# posted by : 28/11/07 16:19
: 28/11/07 16:19
For example you could have a solo level, a group level, and a PvP level. If you wanted to participate in end-game raiding, you would need to raise your group level by playing in groups, and soloing wouldn't help you to advance.
Earth&Beyond had a somewhat similar idea in their leveling system - you had one global level, which went from 1 to 150. But the level gain was separated into three separate areas - combat, trading/crafting and exploration and 50 levels in each of those.
The problem here was that there was not a good distribution of the different types of activities in terms of the experience you gained. Combat was always available, but there was not 50 levels worth of _fun_ exploration and trading. If ypu reached the max level in one area the rest of the xp in that area was distributed to the other areas, but at a reduced rate. And in order to do or accomplish certain things you needed to gain levels in the different areas, which led to a lot of grinding.
The problem here is that regardless of the division of experience points into whatever areas are available, you will need to have people perform activites the particular areas roughly in the same amount, if they are going to be able to play together. That is, unless there is some scaling or adjustment system that allows people at different stages to play together.
The core of the problem here I think is not exactly what level- or skill-based system is used, but how one facilitate for people to play together even with different progress paths and stages.
Earth&Beyond had a somewhat similar idea in their leveling system - you had one global level, which went from 1 to 150. But the level gain was separated into three separate areas - combat, trading/crafting and exploration and 50 levels in each of those.
The problem here was that there was not a good distribution of the different types of activities in terms of the experience you gained. Combat was always available, but there was not 50 levels worth of _fun_ exploration and trading. If ypu reached the max level in one area the rest of the xp in that area was distributed to the other areas, but at a reduced rate. And in order to do or accomplish certain things you needed to gain levels in the different areas, which led to a lot of grinding.
The problem here is that regardless of the division of experience points into whatever areas are available, you will need to have people perform activites the particular areas roughly in the same amount, if they are going to be able to play together. That is, unless there is some scaling or adjustment system that allows people at different stages to play together.
The core of the problem here I think is not exactly what level- or skill-based system is used, but how one facilitate for people to play together even with different progress paths and stages.
# posted by : 28/11/07 18:02
: 28/11/07 18:02
I think the problem is that solo play is inherently easier than group play. Let's face it. Getting a group of players together for your average player who has no RL or just a few friends in game is a hassle. That alone is enough reason that you should get better rewards in group play. Otherwise there is no real reason to group for these new gamers who are all about doing everything with max efficiency.
Not saying soloing should go away. It is important that someone who doesn't want to group or who can't because of time constraints or any other reason should be able to get on and have fun and the ability to advance their character.
I only see a 4 tiered system hurting group play more than it would help. Look what attunements did to casual raiding guilds. It would be like that only worse. Oh got a new recruit but we have to PVE level him cause he's been a PVP'r. That would be a nightmare and be very disheartning.
Not saying soloing should go away. It is important that someone who doesn't want to group or who can't because of time constraints or any other reason should be able to get on and have fun and the ability to advance their character.
I only see a 4 tiered system hurting group play more than it would help. Look what attunements did to casual raiding guilds. It would be like that only worse. Oh got a new recruit but we have to PVE level him cause he's been a PVP'r. That would be a nightmare and be very disheartning.
IMO, WoW is implemented like two different games:
1) The 1-70 leveling game, and
2) The endgame
The 1-70 leveling game is, at its root, almost entirely throw-away (unless you're twinking), because almost nothing you do along the way really truly impacts the endgame. That is good, in a way, because it's hard to *really* mess up in a way you can't recover. Though the important choice of faction, class, and race are made long before you ever get to 70 -- a situation with enough variables that "my first character" is quite likely to be found to be a unsatisfactory choice at 70 -- though talent trees allow at least some flexibility, if you don't get pigeonholed by 'conventional wisdom'... :)
The endgame plays similar to the multi-skill system that Tobold describes.
In my case, for example, I changed professions to get epic tailoring gear for my squishy (solo), PvP-ed for other gear (PvP), worked specific faction reputation up for gear and patterns and glyphs, and chose instances based upon drop (group).
1) The 1-70 leveling game, and
2) The endgame
The 1-70 leveling game is, at its root, almost entirely throw-away (unless you're twinking), because almost nothing you do along the way really truly impacts the endgame. That is good, in a way, because it's hard to *really* mess up in a way you can't recover. Though the important choice of faction, class, and race are made long before you ever get to 70 -- a situation with enough variables that "my first character" is quite likely to be found to be a unsatisfactory choice at 70 -- though talent trees allow at least some flexibility, if you don't get pigeonholed by 'conventional wisdom'... :)
The endgame plays similar to the multi-skill system that Tobold describes.
In my case, for example, I changed professions to get epic tailoring gear for my squishy (solo), PvP-ed for other gear (PvP), worked specific faction reputation up for gear and patterns and glyphs, and chose instances based upon drop (group).
# posted by : 28/11/07 20:22
: 28/11/07 20:22
Tobold, you wrote, "If you wanted to participate in end-game raiding, you would need to raise your group level by playing in groups, and soloing wouldn't help you to advance."
Is that so different than the Karazhan key quests? You can't complete them solo, so you are forced to group for a variety of 5-man instances before you can enter your first 10-man.
Also, you wrote: "With World of Warcraft getting older, the large majority of players is at the level cap."
In other posts, you've said that majority of players have not done end-game raiding. I am curious about your estimates for these percentages of WoW players (say the 2M in North America and Europe):
% of people with level 70's
% of people who have entered Karazhan
% of people who have finished Karazhan (killed Nightbane)
% of people who have entered 25-man TBC raids
Wowjutsu provides some numbers but doesn't indicate how many of those toons are on the same account / same player. Any thoughts?
Is that so different than the Karazhan key quests? You can't complete them solo, so you are forced to group for a variety of 5-man instances before you can enter your first 10-man.
Also, you wrote: "With World of Warcraft getting older, the large majority of players is at the level cap."
In other posts, you've said that majority of players have not done end-game raiding. I am curious about your estimates for these percentages of WoW players (say the 2M in North America and Europe):
% of people with level 70's
% of people who have entered Karazhan
% of people who have finished Karazhan (killed Nightbane)
% of people who have entered 25-man TBC raids
Wowjutsu provides some numbers but doesn't indicate how many of those toons are on the same account / same player. Any thoughts?
% of people with level 70's
I'd say about 70%. I've used CensusPlus and saw over 60% of people online on my server being level 70. But of course many of the lower levels online were alts, while on the other hand all census software undercounts very casual players who just aren't online.
% of people who have entered Karazhan
WoWjutsu counts 1.9 million raiders out of a population of roughly 4 million US and Euro players. But this counts every guild member of a raiding guild as a raider, even if half of them never went to Karazhan, thus I'd say around 30%.
% of people who have finished Karazhan (killed Nightbane)
% of people who have entered 25-man TBC raids
Those two numbers are probably close to each other. According to WoWjutsu 1/3 of all players entering Karazhan also entered Serpentshrine, so the number is probably around 10%.
I'd say about 70%. I've used CensusPlus and saw over 60% of people online on my server being level 70. But of course many of the lower levels online were alts, while on the other hand all census software undercounts very casual players who just aren't online.
% of people who have entered Karazhan
WoWjutsu counts 1.9 million raiders out of a population of roughly 4 million US and Euro players. But this counts every guild member of a raiding guild as a raider, even if half of them never went to Karazhan, thus I'd say around 30%.
% of people who have finished Karazhan (killed Nightbane)
% of people who have entered 25-man TBC raids
Those two numbers are probably close to each other. According to WoWjutsu 1/3 of all players entering Karazhan also entered Serpentshrine, so the number is probably around 10%.
Excellent post, Tobold. Your description of the WoW system in this light really shows how flawed the game mechanics are. Which causes one to pause and consider the overall importance of the game mechanics (which one tends to think of as integral and all-important). ...Lots of poeple play the game anyway.
I thought the UO model that you describe in the first paragraph still sounds preferable to your suggested idea. However, I think your suggested idea is a good angle to at least consider.
The UO model truly says to the player that they can do what they want, without restrictions. You get what you put into it. The game will give you cheese for whatever activities you most like to take part in.
I think the follow-up activity would be to consider the potential problems with the UO (and Ryzom) skill-based model. Maybe that was a previous post of yours. Having played the game you may be able to rattle off the pitfalls quite easily.
Vanguard has a nice mix too. Three level trees or spheres (adventuring, crafting, diplomacy) and skill values for everything else, the most prominent being for harvesting, which approximates a game sphere.
Zentr
I thought the UO model that you describe in the first paragraph still sounds preferable to your suggested idea. However, I think your suggested idea is a good angle to at least consider.
The UO model truly says to the player that they can do what they want, without restrictions. You get what you put into it. The game will give you cheese for whatever activities you most like to take part in.
I think the follow-up activity would be to consider the potential problems with the UO (and Ryzom) skill-based model. Maybe that was a previous post of yours. Having played the game you may be able to rattle off the pitfalls quite easily.
Vanguard has a nice mix too. Three level trees or spheres (adventuring, crafting, diplomacy) and skill values for everything else, the most prominent being for harvesting, which approximates a game sphere.
Zentr
# posted by : 29/11/07 14:55
: 29/11/07 14:55
sam said...
I think the problem is that solo play is inherently easier than group play.
I don't see that as a problem. The rewards for grouping tends to be greater. Although some solo quests (which group players can do between groups) are nice, its the group quests and dungeon rewards that stand out. A single run through a dungeon (a few hours) can net some nice stuff. So I think its balanced here.
I've played games (EQ) where entire outdoor zones couldn't be entered unless you were keyed and the difference in loot between a solo or casual group player was light years behind the raiders. And no matter how much time you spent in the game, unless it was 4-8 hours at a stretch (longer if you needed a 40 man corpse recovery) you were NEVER going to get close to the uber loot. Occasionally a really looong quest came along to give you a single okay item.
Later EQ added gems and instanced dungeons that helped somewhat. But that was 4 or 5 expansions in.
WoW does have some amount of divide between the players.
People can eventually (depending on how much time they have) can PVP themselves into really nice PVP gear, much of which is okay for PVE, but often not for real raiding, and not always useful for hard dungeons.
For PVEers with not a lot of time, they can over many short sessions craft, farm gold, raise their tradeskills or grind rep to get decent purples/blues. Basically a way to get them started if they ever do get enough time to do more groups and maybe even raid.
And for people with lots of time at a stretch they can grind incredible amounts of honor, arena points, hard dungeons or raid to gear up a lot faster than people who have less time.
The difference between WoW and earlier games is WoW allows almost anyone to eventually level up and gear up. But the people who lots of time will do it faster and usually get better results.
I think the problem is that solo play is inherently easier than group play.
I don't see that as a problem. The rewards for grouping tends to be greater. Although some solo quests (which group players can do between groups) are nice, its the group quests and dungeon rewards that stand out. A single run through a dungeon (a few hours) can net some nice stuff. So I think its balanced here.
I've played games (EQ) where entire outdoor zones couldn't be entered unless you were keyed and the difference in loot between a solo or casual group player was light years behind the raiders. And no matter how much time you spent in the game, unless it was 4-8 hours at a stretch (longer if you needed a 40 man corpse recovery) you were NEVER going to get close to the uber loot. Occasionally a really looong quest came along to give you a single okay item.
Later EQ added gems and instanced dungeons that helped somewhat. But that was 4 or 5 expansions in.
WoW does have some amount of divide between the players.
People can eventually (depending on how much time they have) can PVP themselves into really nice PVP gear, much of which is okay for PVE, but often not for real raiding, and not always useful for hard dungeons.
For PVEers with not a lot of time, they can over many short sessions craft, farm gold, raise their tradeskills or grind rep to get decent purples/blues. Basically a way to get them started if they ever do get enough time to do more groups and maybe even raid.
And for people with lots of time at a stretch they can grind incredible amounts of honor, arena points, hard dungeons or raid to gear up a lot faster than people who have less time.
The difference between WoW and earlier games is WoW allows almost anyone to eventually level up and gear up. But the people who lots of time will do it faster and usually get better results.
# posted by : 30/11/07 21:55
: 30/11/07 21:55
(trashed and reposted for edits)
I don't really think your proposal is beneficial.
Leveling 1-70 is meant to teach you how your class's skills work, 60-70 is also geared to learning the new dynamics of Outlands. Leveling isn't very time-consuming (and shorter than other MMORPGs), because WoW has always been geared around end-game content. 2.3 has dramatically sped up the leveling curve, and I'd expect another boost when WotLK comes out.
Leveling serves as a baseline standard that all players can resonate with. All Alliance know who Hogger is, all Horde know about Mankirk's wife. With an early leveling cap, WoW then can reward other talents to differentiate players: money-making, PVP/raid knowledge, and above-all time committment.
You can PVP at the early levels, you can craft at the early levels, you can do group activities at the early levels. With "twinking," (either powerleveling a profession or decking out early-game gear) the ability to excel and dominate without stressing level grinding is likewise possible.
Hitting 70 is like graduating high school, everyone should be required to do it to make their mark in the game, whether their preference is study, arts or sports.
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I don't really think your proposal is beneficial.
Leveling 1-70 is meant to teach you how your class's skills work, 60-70 is also geared to learning the new dynamics of Outlands. Leveling isn't very time-consuming (and shorter than other MMORPGs), because WoW has always been geared around end-game content. 2.3 has dramatically sped up the leveling curve, and I'd expect another boost when WotLK comes out.
Leveling serves as a baseline standard that all players can resonate with. All Alliance know who Hogger is, all Horde know about Mankirk's wife. With an early leveling cap, WoW then can reward other talents to differentiate players: money-making, PVP/raid knowledge, and above-all time committment.
You can PVP at the early levels, you can craft at the early levels, you can do group activities at the early levels. With "twinking," (either powerleveling a profession or decking out early-game gear) the ability to excel and dominate without stressing level grinding is likewise possible.
Hitting 70 is like graduating high school, everyone should be required to do it to make their mark in the game, whether their preference is study, arts or sports.
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