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Friday, January 11, 2008
Karazhan raid experience
I am so not going to bore you with a detailed description of how we killed this or that boss, what loot dropped, and what tactics we used. I leafed through many WoW blogs in the past, and found that all the descriptions of raids to one place strongly resemble each other, because everyone uses the same well-known and publicly available strategies, the bosses are always the same, and the loot drops only vary slightly. So I'm just going to say that my first Karazhan raid with my old guild was great fun, and I saw lots of encounters and events I had never seen before. We did Atumen, Moroes, the Maiden, the opera, and Nightbane. I got one epic, a healing trinket from Romeo, but we weren't all that lucky with the other epics and many of them ended up being needed by nobody. I'm not crazy enough to "need" on epic cloth items which are obviously designed for damage casters, and which would have ended with me having less +healing than in the blue items I'm currently wearing. Anyway, I don't raid just for the loot, and I always get badges of justice which I can turn in one day for whatever epic I need most.
In the comments of the last couple of days there were some questions regarding my Karazhan raid. One hardcore raider asked why casual players wanted to go raiding at all, if it was obviously so difficult to schedule. But when I see encounters like the opera, where the same location has a random chance of three different and nicely scripted events, or boss fights like Nightbane with its several phases, I can only wonder how anyone playing WoW would *not* want to see them. A hardcore raider killing Nightbane for the 15th time and cursing because the one piece of loot he wants is still not dropping might consider the evening to be hard work spent for nothing. But for somebody there for the first time the huge amount of work Blizzard developers put into these raid encounters is really obvious, and the difference with the boring mobs you can kill solo is striking. If the hardcore raider don't want casual players to raid, I propose that the devs make the solo and non-heroic group encounters as interesting as the raid encounters are now. And save the raiders some time by making raid dungeons simple linear corridors without decoration with X stacks of trash mobs in evenly spaced distances, followed by a boss with huge stats and powers, but no animations or scripted events. If the casual players value the lore and detailed embellishment of encounters so much more, why waste all that work on the hardcore raiders who only want the difficult fight and the loot?
I'll certainly sign up for more Karazhan raids. And if I get a bit more lucky with loot, I might be able to move on to other raid dungeons. But the fun is certainly in seeing the places, and in hanging out with friends to overcome the challenges. That my guild doesn't organize a Karazhan raid every night and I'm not expected to raid several times per week suits me just fine. It is obvious that there is a point somewhere where the same raid dungeons stops being fun, and starts becoming a boring treadmill you are only willing to do because of the promise of another fun place somewhere in the future. I frequently talked about how Karazhan is too hard for an entry level dungeon. But of course for the raiders the problem is more the gap in difficulty between one raid dungeon and the next, forcing them to run the same raid over and over. Hey, now I even understand why people loved the introduction of Zul'Aman!
Another reader asked how raiding Karazhan compares to playing Pirates of the Burning Sea. Well, Karazhan wins hands down. Not only because of the huge different in quality and polish between WoW and PotBS. But also because a Karazhan raid by definition is a group thing, a social experience. Pirates of the Burning Sea in its current pre-order state is an almost pure solo game. PvP isn't enabled yet, and there is only a single (but repeatable) group mission in the whole starting area. I enjoy the economy game, but the interaction with other players in the PotBS economy is indirect and anonymous via the auction house. You could theoretically set up a contract with another player, for example for him to provide you with a certain amount of raw materials every day at a fixed price. But PotBS doesn't have any tools to support that, you'd need to be online every day at the same time as the other player and meet in some port to manually transfer the goods. Games like Ultima Online or Star Wars Galaxies with their player-run shops had much better opportunities to develop long-term business relationships between players. The PotBS economy might be player-run, but without the players actually getting to know each other in the process. I can tell you who the master smiths are on my WoW server, but I have no idea who the ships made I bought in PotBS.
- posted by Tobold @ 8:23 AM Permanent Link
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Previously you have been very 'anti' Karazhan in your comments, Tobold. I'm glad that you have finally experienced the good side of it.
Karazhan is fun, and yes, it is fun in a social sense too.
Don't tell me you need 25+ players to make raiding an enjoyable/shared experience.
Karazhan is fun, and yes, it is fun in a social sense too.
Don't tell me you need 25+ players to make raiding an enjoyable/shared experience.
# posted by 
: 11/1/08 12:00
: 11/1/08 12:00
Word. Kara is fun, and while I haven't been there recently (school + vacation + 4 months away from the game) I remember my first time running through the instance with properly geared people. Being able to easily beat encounters like the Maiden or the Opera or others filled me with joy.
What online mag had a two competing comments about bad MMO design? I think it was 1UP. It doesn't matter, since they bitched about pointless "kill 10 rats" gameplay but also complained about ultra controlled endgame comment. You don't get to bitch about both, as one contradicts the other.
I need to revisit Kara again on my down time from SSC, just because I need items past the Curator. When that will happen, I don't know as I have a real life that I need to pay attention to, but I'll see the Prince again.
And I'll be happy.
Now if I can only work out a time to visit ZA w/ the guild, I'll be a happy priest.
What online mag had a two competing comments about bad MMO design? I think it was 1UP. It doesn't matter, since they bitched about pointless "kill 10 rats" gameplay but also complained about ultra controlled endgame comment. You don't get to bitch about both, as one contradicts the other.
I need to revisit Kara again on my down time from SSC, just because I need items past the Curator. When that will happen, I don't know as I have a real life that I need to pay attention to, but I'll see the Prince again.
And I'll be happy.
Now if I can only work out a time to visit ZA w/ the guild, I'll be a happy priest.
Previously you have been very 'anti' Karazhan in your comments, Tobold.
I don't know how you can construe my repeated statements and still current opinion that Blizzard should have made Karazhan more accessible to a much larger percentage of the player base as being 'anti' Karazhan. If I had ever thought that raid dungeons were boring and bad, then why would I fight so much to open them up to casual players? I'm not even against the Black Temple or the upcoming Sunwell Plateau, but the fact that less than 1% of the players are ever going to see those is bad.
I don't know how you can construe my repeated statements and still current opinion that Blizzard should have made Karazhan more accessible to a much larger percentage of the player base as being 'anti' Karazhan. If I had ever thought that raid dungeons were boring and bad, then why would I fight so much to open them up to casual players? I'm not even against the Black Temple or the upcoming Sunwell Plateau, but the fact that less than 1% of the players are ever going to see those is bad.
I hope they will open up the BT/MtHy attunement with Sunwell Plateau.
This way people can at least take a peak inside, even if they have to have killed a lot of SSC/TK, to be able to survive there, but the Brick Wall of Kael and Vjash would be out of the way (Vjash being one of the hardest encounters in game according to Guilds farming BT/MtHy)
We will see ;D
This way people can at least take a peak inside, even if they have to have killed a lot of SSC/TK, to be able to survive there, but the Brick Wall of Kael and Vjash would be out of the way (Vjash being one of the hardest encounters in game according to Guilds farming BT/MtHy)
We will see ;D
my honest opinion is simple: if you are so casual that you weren´t able to beat kara by now, where every slightly so called hardcore player has downed Illidan, then i think you either suck at wow big time or mmorpgs are simply the wrong game for you.
with making kara even more accessible for casual players, you trivialize the content to death for every1 else.
in my experience the only thing that prevents casuals from experiencing kara, serpentshrine and so on is skill not time.
pick up groups anyone ?
randoms that are so damn stupid that clearing shadowlab non heroic becomes an adventure.
with making kara even more accessible for casual players, you trivialize the content to death for every1 else.
in my experience the only thing that prevents casuals from experiencing kara, serpentshrine and so on is skill not time.
pick up groups anyone ?
randoms that are so damn stupid that clearing shadowlab non heroic becomes an adventure.
# posted by : 11/1/08 14:12
: 11/1/08 14:12
Actually, it is more Kael'Thas pre-nerf which was the most difficult encounter (understand the one with the longuer learning curve) of TBC.
First bosses of Hyjal/BT are jokes. Free loots for thoses who succeed in their attunement. In Hyjal, Azgalor/Archimonde are the real (great) challenges. In BT, everything after the Shade of Akama is difficult. Illidan seems to be a great great fight.
Agree that the Hyjal/BT attunements is ridiculous. If they have to stick with this, I would prefer something more like the attunements with Heroics, even if it's not perfect.
First bosses of Hyjal/BT are jokes. Free loots for thoses who succeed in their attunement. In Hyjal, Azgalor/Archimonde are the real (great) challenges. In BT, everything after the Shade of Akama is difficult. Illidan seems to be a great great fight.
Agree that the Hyjal/BT attunements is ridiculous. If they have to stick with this, I would prefer something more like the attunements with Heroics, even if it's not perfect.
my honest opinion is simple: if you are so casual that you weren´t able to beat kara by now, where every slightly so called hardcore player has downed Illidan, then i think you either suck at wow big time or mmorpgs are simply the wrong game for you.
with making kara even more accessible for casual players, you trivialize the content to death for every1 else.
in my experience the only thing that prevents casuals from experiencing kara, serpentshrine and so on is skill not time.
pick up groups anyone ?
randoms that are so damn stupid that clearing shadowlab non heroic becomes an adventure.
At first I was tempted to delete this comment. But then I found it was such an excellent example of an elitist jerk that I should let it stand. Telling me that I suck at WoW big time because during my 7 months of absence from the game I made no raid progress is a new one.
And why is it that most of the people who call other people stupid haven't even mastered the spelling of their native language, and use a bastardized "leet" version of it? Makes you wonder whether their so-called achievements in the game are just for compensation of failure in real life.
with making kara even more accessible for casual players, you trivialize the content to death for every1 else.
in my experience the only thing that prevents casuals from experiencing kara, serpentshrine and so on is skill not time.
pick up groups anyone ?
randoms that are so damn stupid that clearing shadowlab non heroic becomes an adventure.
At first I was tempted to delete this comment. But then I found it was such an excellent example of an elitist jerk that I should let it stand. Telling me that I suck at WoW big time because during my 7 months of absence from the game I made no raid progress is a new one.
And why is it that most of the people who call other people stupid haven't even mastered the spelling of their native language, and use a bastardized "leet" version of it? Makes you wonder whether their so-called achievements in the game are just for compensation of failure in real life.
@tobold
first of all i am not a native english speaking person.
then back to the topic at hand:
yes there was a time when i was a sort of player you would call hardcore (cleared naxx before bc came out), but that has changed dramatically since bc, cause i finished university and started to work.
so i play sort of casual since the release of bc and know what ? if you aren´t able or willing to invest 4-8 hours into wow a weak and maybe a saturday or sunday afternoon to go to places like kara, then as i said, mmorpgs are not the games designed for you. simple as that.
my whole point is: a group of good players in blue gear can beat kara
in one afternoon. so how more accessible do you want kara to be ?
and i didn´t want to say that you suck at wow, i honestly think you have not much time to game, or are not willing to put the time in to your hobby that is needed. which is not a bad at all, no offense here.
first of all i am not a native english speaking person.
then back to the topic at hand:
yes there was a time when i was a sort of player you would call hardcore (cleared naxx before bc came out), but that has changed dramatically since bc, cause i finished university and started to work.
so i play sort of casual since the release of bc and know what ? if you aren´t able or willing to invest 4-8 hours into wow a weak and maybe a saturday or sunday afternoon to go to places like kara, then as i said, mmorpgs are not the games designed for you. simple as that.
my whole point is: a group of good players in blue gear can beat kara
in one afternoon. so how more accessible do you want kara to be ?
and i didn´t want to say that you suck at wow, i honestly think you have not much time to game, or are not willing to put the time in to your hobby that is needed. which is not a bad at all, no offense here.
# posted by : 11/1/08 14:39
: 11/1/08 14:39
Kara is a lot of fun. Personally I like the Big Bad Wolf opera event the most.
Our guild currently has 4 Kara teams and we are starting up 2 other groups for Gruuls and ZA. My group only runs Sat and Sun mornings, which is perfect for me.
Just downed Prince for the first time last weekend, in fact.
Our guild currently has 4 Kara teams and we are starting up 2 other groups for Gruuls and ZA. My group only runs Sat and Sun mornings, which is perfect for me.
Just downed Prince for the first time last weekend, in fact.
# posted by : 11/1/08 14:55
: 11/1/08 14:55
Glad you enjoyed the raid Tobold, but being part of a farming run and actually raiding are two different things.
It sounds like you guys had a fairly easy time in Kara, without the usual wipes that are the norm in raiding. I would be interested to read about your experience if you were able to join a raid group that is still learning an encounter. Remember that before you entered Kara, your guild mates likely spent a few weeks wiping on each boss repeatedly to figure out the encounter, and then out-gear it.
It sounds like you guys had a fairly easy time in Kara, without the usual wipes that are the norm in raiding. I would be interested to read about your experience if you were able to join a raid group that is still learning an encounter. Remember that before you entered Kara, your guild mates likely spent a few weeks wiping on each boss repeatedly to figure out the encounter, and then out-gear it.
# posted by : 11/1/08 15:00
: 11/1/08 15:00
I am really glad you enjoyed your Kara raiding experience.
It sounds like most of your fun in raiding Kara came from being out with your guild friends (social) and being new to the dungeon (freshness). With a smaller portion of the fun being the possibility of getting loot.
Eventually that freshness will wear off and you'll just be left with the social aspect and the loot gaining.
You have a lot of trips to Kara to look forward to in order to gear up for Zul'Aman.
Then you'll probably have a lot of fun doing Zul'Aman, conquering the encounters and gaining loot.
You may wish to ask yourself a question though...
If neither Kara or Zul'Aman dropped loot, would just being with guild friends and beating the encounters be 'fun enough' for you?
When Wrath of the Lich King comes out, odds are every piece of loot you ever gained from those dungeons will be 100% worthless. That's right, all the actual physical in game rewards go poof.
Also odds are you'll NEVER see the 25 man raid dungeons in Outland. Just like many WoW players never saw AQ40 or Naxx.
I guess I'm a very jaded ex-WoW player. Disappointed at how Blizzard can develop so much content that so few people will see.
Disappointed at how quickly Blizzard is willing to make all your actual in-game rewards become worthless just by plopping down $30 for a new expansion.
I'd still go back though, if they introduced some sort of way I could advance my character by means other than loot that will be vendored in a few months.
Still though, I remember times when I had a lot of fun raiding and being with guild mates. I feel I 'know better' now but I really am glad that you (and many others) are still enjoying the game a lot.
I keep an eye on patch notes and expansion news, perhaps Blizzard will actually do something new that will bring me back. Somehow though, I doubt it.
It sounds like most of your fun in raiding Kara came from being out with your guild friends (social) and being new to the dungeon (freshness). With a smaller portion of the fun being the possibility of getting loot.
Eventually that freshness will wear off and you'll just be left with the social aspect and the loot gaining.
You have a lot of trips to Kara to look forward to in order to gear up for Zul'Aman.
Then you'll probably have a lot of fun doing Zul'Aman, conquering the encounters and gaining loot.
You may wish to ask yourself a question though...
If neither Kara or Zul'Aman dropped loot, would just being with guild friends and beating the encounters be 'fun enough' for you?
When Wrath of the Lich King comes out, odds are every piece of loot you ever gained from those dungeons will be 100% worthless. That's right, all the actual physical in game rewards go poof.
Also odds are you'll NEVER see the 25 man raid dungeons in Outland. Just like many WoW players never saw AQ40 or Naxx.
I guess I'm a very jaded ex-WoW player. Disappointed at how Blizzard can develop so much content that so few people will see.
Disappointed at how quickly Blizzard is willing to make all your actual in-game rewards become worthless just by plopping down $30 for a new expansion.
I'd still go back though, if they introduced some sort of way I could advance my character by means other than loot that will be vendored in a few months.
Still though, I remember times when I had a lot of fun raiding and being with guild mates. I feel I 'know better' now but I really am glad that you (and many others) are still enjoying the game a lot.
I keep an eye on patch notes and expansion news, perhaps Blizzard will actually do something new that will bring me back. Somehow though, I doubt it.
"but the fact that less than 1% of the players are ever going to see those is bad."
I completely agree, but I don't see Karazhan in the same light. Unlike the ridiculous SSC attunement process (no longer with us, I'm glad to say), I just don't think getting into Karazhan is that hard, unless you are a very casual player.
Anyway, let's agree to differ on this point.
I completely agree, but I don't see Karazhan in the same light. Unlike the ridiculous SSC attunement process (no longer with us, I'm glad to say), I just don't think getting into Karazhan is that hard, unless you are a very casual player.
Anyway, let's agree to differ on this point.
# posted by : 11/1/08 16:08
: 11/1/08 16:08
Regarding "Karzhan is easy, everyone can do it":
It is not necessary easy. All you need is one person at a vital position and you are doomed. Best example is you MT. Our first MT in Kara was lazy and not very skilled. He used three of his spells in a macro, and when tanking simply hammered this macro. Very bad idea for a warrior. His aggro per second was lousy and without the use of shield block and spells like that he received far mor damage than he should.
So what happened? Our (very skilled) Healers noticed that simple trashmobs where able to three-hit him on a regular basis. Also healing him on any bossfight was very demanding. Our DDs noticed that they couldn't do their full DPS without getting aggro, so they reduced their damage. And the best: If your raidleader isn't really skilled at his job he will only notice low dps and the tank often dying. He will blame healers and DDs while the true idiot was the MT. We progressed a bit, but reached soon the point where the other players could no longer compensate the shortcommings of the MT. Luckily this player was also an extreme itemwhore: He simply left because we wouldn't give him everything first because he was the tank.
Being casual sometimes means you can't kick a bad player out because he is a friend. If that player would still be there we would still need three days for Kara and would still wipe on several bosses, but on our first day with new tank (rest of the group still the same) we cleared everything except Nightbane and the prince without wipes in a third of the time. Last two bosses followed the next day.
Jesus.. I'm like an old man telling stories about the war ;)
Concluding.. one player can make the difference between easy and impossible.
It is not necessary easy. All you need is one person at a vital position and you are doomed. Best example is you MT. Our first MT in Kara was lazy and not very skilled. He used three of his spells in a macro, and when tanking simply hammered this macro. Very bad idea for a warrior. His aggro per second was lousy and without the use of shield block and spells like that he received far mor damage than he should.
So what happened? Our (very skilled) Healers noticed that simple trashmobs where able to three-hit him on a regular basis. Also healing him on any bossfight was very demanding. Our DDs noticed that they couldn't do their full DPS without getting aggro, so they reduced their damage. And the best: If your raidleader isn't really skilled at his job he will only notice low dps and the tank often dying. He will blame healers and DDs while the true idiot was the MT. We progressed a bit, but reached soon the point where the other players could no longer compensate the shortcommings of the MT. Luckily this player was also an extreme itemwhore: He simply left because we wouldn't give him everything first because he was the tank.
Being casual sometimes means you can't kick a bad player out because he is a friend. If that player would still be there we would still need three days for Kara and would still wipe on several bosses, but on our first day with new tank (rest of the group still the same) we cleared everything except Nightbane and the prince without wipes in a third of the time. Last two bosses followed the next day.
Jesus.. I'm like an old man telling stories about the war ;)
Concluding.. one player can make the difference between easy and impossible.
# posted by : 11/1/08 16:13
: 11/1/08 16:13
well kiseran you are absolut right and i know that certain roles are very important for the whole group to progress.
i also know that kara can be really difficult and frustrating with 2-3 slackers or not-so-good players at the wrong spots.
but the whole thing with "make kara more accessible to the average player" then is just reduced to:
make it so easy that every a group with a total noob tank can clear it easily ? do you think that would make kara a fun place many enjoy raiding ?
i believe that every player, casual and hardcore, wants the feeling he has achieved something when he beats an encounter and not only see the nice scripted encounters and enviroments. that feel of an achievement is instantly taken away if kara is reduced to everyone can beat while watching tv.
best proff for that is the fact that not much casuals go to naxxramas to see the very very cool encounters there, like saphiron and so on , although i´s a cakewalk now.
i also know that kara can be really difficult and frustrating with 2-3 slackers or not-so-good players at the wrong spots.
but the whole thing with "make kara more accessible to the average player" then is just reduced to:
make it so easy that every a group with a total noob tank can clear it easily ? do you think that would make kara a fun place many enjoy raiding ?
i believe that every player, casual and hardcore, wants the feeling he has achieved something when he beats an encounter and not only see the nice scripted encounters and enviroments. that feel of an achievement is instantly taken away if kara is reduced to everyone can beat while watching tv.
best proff for that is the fact that not much casuals go to naxxramas to see the very very cool encounters there, like saphiron and so on , although i´s a cakewalk now.
# posted by : 11/1/08 16:39
: 11/1/08 16:39
Beelze IS an elitist jerk.
(one of the rude things) Beelze said...
"In my experience the only thing that prevents casuals from experiencing kara, serpentshrine and so on is skill not time."
My reply...
WoW PvE (and largely PvP) is not a game of skill.
Success at level cap (= aquisition of good gear) is a result of time investment.
If you consider it a thing of skill to get into a guild (that can conquer high level instance content), then I imagine you have no idea what "skill" means.
All it takes is the time to be able to fit into the raid schedule of a guild to conquer high level content. All it takes is the ability to listen to direction or read about (or watch videos of) strategies to overcome raid encounters.
It requires coming to a raid on time with a bag full of potions; reagants, and making sure your gear is repaired. After that, you either do what you did last time you were in that instance, or if it's a new experience for you or the raid: ask, listen to the raid leader, follow directions, stay awake, mash your buttons when asked to "do your" thing.
Is that skill??? Hardly.
It is spending time, being attentive and aware and pushing buttons.
Someone who has not gotten to the high end instances (at this point in time) does not make them a loser at MMO's and thus mean they should quit playing them...
It means (if they are even logged in) they do other things with their time than fit into the raid schedule of a guild that is doing high level instance raids and/or they enjoy aspects of the game you no longer play (if you ever did).
I wouldn't blame Tobold for wanting to delete Beelze's post. Beelze obviously has a narrow view of the game, low respect for other people's point of view, and IMO doesn't know what he is talking about.
(one of the rude things) Beelze said...
"In my experience the only thing that prevents casuals from experiencing kara, serpentshrine and so on is skill not time."
My reply...
WoW PvE (and largely PvP) is not a game of skill.
Success at level cap (= aquisition of good gear) is a result of time investment.
If you consider it a thing of skill to get into a guild (that can conquer high level instance content), then I imagine you have no idea what "skill" means.
All it takes is the time to be able to fit into the raid schedule of a guild to conquer high level content. All it takes is the ability to listen to direction or read about (or watch videos of) strategies to overcome raid encounters.
It requires coming to a raid on time with a bag full of potions; reagants, and making sure your gear is repaired. After that, you either do what you did last time you were in that instance, or if it's a new experience for you or the raid: ask, listen to the raid leader, follow directions, stay awake, mash your buttons when asked to "do your" thing.
Is that skill??? Hardly.
It is spending time, being attentive and aware and pushing buttons.
Someone who has not gotten to the high end instances (at this point in time) does not make them a loser at MMO's and thus mean they should quit playing them...
It means (if they are even logged in) they do other things with their time than fit into the raid schedule of a guild that is doing high level instance raids and/or they enjoy aspects of the game you no longer play (if you ever did).
I wouldn't blame Tobold for wanting to delete Beelze's post. Beelze obviously has a narrow view of the game, low respect for other people's point of view, and IMO doesn't know what he is talking about.
# posted by : 11/1/08 16:41
: 11/1/08 16:41
being part of a farming run and actually raiding are two different things
I am very much aware of that. Actually what I am doing is the closest you can get in the current situation to the "easy mode" raid dungeons I would want. I am grateful to my guild for taking me with them on some of those trips, and hope to be of help (priest isn't the worst class to have with you in Kara). But as I am not really interested in a full raiding career, I only accept loot that absolutely nobody else wants.
If neither Kara or Zul'Aman dropped loot, would just being with guild friends and beating the encounters be 'fun enough' for you?
I very much believe that not only for me but for most other people too the degree of difficulty plays a very big role in the fun. As you said, the fun is both social and about seeing new stuff. If you already wipe repeatedly on the trash mob, the social relations have a tendancy to go sour (we had a tank storm out angrily because of that on my first and only ZA trip), and of course there isn't enough to see if you don't get far. The "wiping 20 times before you master the encounter" model wouldn't work for people who are just there for the fun. After a certain point people are only kept on track by the loot. Which explains the curious observation that the people who do raid often don't consider it fun, while the people who can't raid would like to go there for fun.
The "hey, I want to go there to hang out with friends and see new places" model of course means going to the same dungeon less often. I've wiped repeatedly in BWL on various bosses, but I've only been up to Nefarion once, because once I had seen him, I considered BWL "done" for me. I'm happy to have seen most of Kara now, and hope to see the rest of it one day, and repeat some of the encounters I already did to understand them better. But my guild has a "dedicated raider" rank, and I don't plan on joining that one. For all the fun, raiding meant that I slept less than 6 hours tonight before going to work, and that isn't something I have the stamina for to do every day.
I am very much aware of that. Actually what I am doing is the closest you can get in the current situation to the "easy mode" raid dungeons I would want. I am grateful to my guild for taking me with them on some of those trips, and hope to be of help (priest isn't the worst class to have with you in Kara). But as I am not really interested in a full raiding career, I only accept loot that absolutely nobody else wants.
If neither Kara or Zul'Aman dropped loot, would just being with guild friends and beating the encounters be 'fun enough' for you?
I very much believe that not only for me but for most other people too the degree of difficulty plays a very big role in the fun. As you said, the fun is both social and about seeing new stuff. If you already wipe repeatedly on the trash mob, the social relations have a tendancy to go sour (we had a tank storm out angrily because of that on my first and only ZA trip), and of course there isn't enough to see if you don't get far. The "wiping 20 times before you master the encounter" model wouldn't work for people who are just there for the fun. After a certain point people are only kept on track by the loot. Which explains the curious observation that the people who do raid often don't consider it fun, while the people who can't raid would like to go there for fun.
The "hey, I want to go there to hang out with friends and see new places" model of course means going to the same dungeon less often. I've wiped repeatedly in BWL on various bosses, but I've only been up to Nefarion once, because once I had seen him, I considered BWL "done" for me. I'm happy to have seen most of Kara now, and hope to see the rest of it one day, and repeat some of the encounters I already did to understand them better. But my guild has a "dedicated raider" rank, and I don't plan on joining that one. For all the fun, raiding meant that I slept less than 6 hours tonight before going to work, and that isn't something I have the stamina for to do every day.
I'll be shocked if they don't remove the Hyjal/BT attunements with the introduction of the Sunwell. There's very little reason to keep those instances locked when they've already announced Sunwell will have no attunement process and will be tuned for T6 geared people. The T6 gear doesn't show up until late in Hyjal and BT so opening up Hyjal/BT means that people hoping to conquer the Sunwell are still going to have an intimidating amount of raiding to do before they're properly geared.
my honest opinion is simple: if you are so casual that you weren´t able to beat kara by now, where every slightly so called hardcore player has downed Illidan, then i think you either suck at wow big time or mmorpgs are simply the wrong game for you.
with making kara even more accessible for casual players, you trivialize the content to death for every1 else.
in my experience the only thing that prevents casuals from experiencing kara, serpentshrine and so on is skill not time.
pick up groups anyone ?
randoms that are so damn stupid that clearing shadowlab non heroic becomes an adventure.
A perfect example of the kind of attitude and player that are poisoning and destroying the social fabric of WOW.
I've known lots of players who could play their toons better than anyone i'd ever seen that didn't have the time to raid.
I've known lots of people who sucked so badly they couldn't clear Strat in a 5 man regardless of who went with them but had thier tier 2 gear because they had the time to show up and raid every night.
FYI according to common prevailing wisdom Einstien sucked ass till he published his theory of relativity.
Small minded people always try to raise themselves up above the masses by telling people who don't have the resources (whether they be time money or people) that they do, that they are somehow less than them.
with making kara even more accessible for casual players, you trivialize the content to death for every1 else.
in my experience the only thing that prevents casuals from experiencing kara, serpentshrine and so on is skill not time.
pick up groups anyone ?
randoms that are so damn stupid that clearing shadowlab non heroic becomes an adventure.
A perfect example of the kind of attitude and player that are poisoning and destroying the social fabric of WOW.
I've known lots of players who could play their toons better than anyone i'd ever seen that didn't have the time to raid.
I've known lots of people who sucked so badly they couldn't clear Strat in a 5 man regardless of who went with them but had thier tier 2 gear because they had the time to show up and raid every night.
FYI according to common prevailing wisdom Einstien sucked ass till he published his theory of relativity.
Small minded people always try to raise themselves up above the masses by telling people who don't have the resources (whether they be time money or people) that they do, that they are somehow less than them.
I need to clarify something before someone jumps all over me for it.
Like others have said, for a raid to be good at getting through content, a requisite is that the player knows how to play their character.
If they are a tank, they need to know what gear they should be wearing, they need to know what buttons to mash and when to mash them to keep agro. They need to have looked up the right macros to use and use them.
Does this require skill?? Is this the argument where people with skill do these things where people without skill do not?
Researching what makes your character the best it can be and then implementing that advice/information IMO is not a thing of skill.
And those who do not do these things are people who will eventually get kicked from raids, and these people will not succeed. Many will learn they need to spend this extra TIME and to invest this time to make their character better, to make their play style better.
Ultimately, it is time, not skill again that is required for a person to learn what what buttons they need to mash and/or what macros or UI's they need to implement.
It is a thing of time. Only those who want to improve their game play and invest the time to read about what it takes to make their play style better, but do not have basic intelligence will still fail. IMO, anyone who can intelligently post their thoughts on a blog/messageboard do not fall into this last category.
Thus the title "MMO loser" shouldn't be directed at anyone here.
Like others have said, for a raid to be good at getting through content, a requisite is that the player knows how to play their character.
If they are a tank, they need to know what gear they should be wearing, they need to know what buttons to mash and when to mash them to keep agro. They need to have looked up the right macros to use and use them.
Does this require skill?? Is this the argument where people with skill do these things where people without skill do not?
Researching what makes your character the best it can be and then implementing that advice/information IMO is not a thing of skill.
And those who do not do these things are people who will eventually get kicked from raids, and these people will not succeed. Many will learn they need to spend this extra TIME and to invest this time to make their character better, to make their play style better.
Ultimately, it is time, not skill again that is required for a person to learn what what buttons they need to mash and/or what macros or UI's they need to implement.
It is a thing of time. Only those who want to improve their game play and invest the time to read about what it takes to make their play style better, but do not have basic intelligence will still fail. IMO, anyone who can intelligently post their thoughts on a blog/messageboard do not fall into this last category.
Thus the title "MMO loser" shouldn't be directed at anyone here.
# posted by : 11/1/08 16:56
: 11/1/08 16:56
call me what you want i can handle it and don´t want to start a flame war.
the fact that the time you invest into playing wow makes up a huge part of your success is a fact. i give you that.
but ! yes but if skill , like you said, is non existant in wow, why do i own dozends of nubs in the arena every day even if they have better gear ? why could i get to #2 in 2on2 and #7 5on5 in arena season 1 with just ~10 hours a week ?
why do i bang my head on the keyboard every time i enter the alterac battleground cause people in there are so learn resistant ?
i guess i just stop to post, because i have the feeling i fight a brick wall, cause everyone is entitled to his/her opinion.
the fact that the time you invest into playing wow makes up a huge part of your success is a fact. i give you that.
but ! yes but if skill , like you said, is non existant in wow, why do i own dozends of nubs in the arena every day even if they have better gear ? why could i get to #2 in 2on2 and #7 5on5 in arena season 1 with just ~10 hours a week ?
why do i bang my head on the keyboard every time i enter the alterac battleground cause people in there are so learn resistant ?
i guess i just stop to post, because i have the feeling i fight a brick wall, cause everyone is entitled to his/her opinion.
# posted by : 11/1/08 16:57
: 11/1/08 16:57
If your opinion is people who don't have time shouldn't be rewarded that would just be your opinion.
But you crawled down into the mud and started calling names. Thus you got muddy.
And if you are upset that people don't group well and strategize well start looking at the core reasons.
Like the fact that they are told to maximize thier time and solo to endgame. The fact that it is actually easier thus more efficient to just log in and lose your PVP games and get your tokens if you just want some gear.
These are problems that blizzard created. They won't get any better till they change thier paradigm by changing the reward structure.
But you crawled down into the mud and started calling names. Thus you got muddy.
And if you are upset that people don't group well and strategize well start looking at the core reasons.
Like the fact that they are told to maximize thier time and solo to endgame. The fact that it is actually easier thus more efficient to just log in and lose your PVP games and get your tokens if you just want some gear.
These are problems that blizzard created. They won't get any better till they change thier paradigm by changing the reward structure.
I wouldn't blame Tobold for wanting to delete Beelze's post. Beelze obviously has a narrow view of the game, low respect for other people's point of view, and IMO doesn't know what he is talking about.
While I don't agree with what Beelze says, I am very much aware that what he says is representative of what many raiders think. Thus his contribution is adding something valuable to the discussion, which would be boring if we all agreed on everything.
make it so easy that every a group with a total noob tank can clear it easily ? do you think that would make kara a fun place many enjoy raiding ?
That depends what you call a total noob tank, and what you call clear it easily. I do play my tank competently and with skill, but he will never get into Kara, because he has 12k health, and the tank we had last night for Nightbane had 16k health unbuffed. The degree of difficulty I would want for Kara would be one where that 12k health tank could beat Nightbane with the same amount of effort that the 16k tank needs now, with the rest of the group being similarily less well geared.
It isn't lack of skill that keeps my priest from visiting the higher level raid dungeons after Karazhan. It is the fact that I first would need to spend hundreds of hours in PvP and Kara raids before I would have a set of gear in which I wouldn't be a burden to my raid group. Nobody even looks at your skill when deciding whether to invite you for a Tempest Keep raid. Unless they are really good friends willing to take you with them as a tourist, the people deciding on the raid composition will look at your stats to decide whether to take you. I did quite a good job with my priest for example keeping one mob permanently shackled at Moroes while still healing. But of course I only had +1100 healing, while the other priest had over +1500, and he had more mana and mana regeneration. Of course he was also better than me from knowing the encounters much better than me, but I can learn an encounter much quicker than I can close the gear gap.
I do think Kara could be a fun place many people would enjoy raiding if a decent group of 10 players who just all hit level 70 could beat it without wiping 20 times on every boss and needing weeks to gather the gear to finally beat it.
While I don't agree with what Beelze says, I am very much aware that what he says is representative of what many raiders think. Thus his contribution is adding something valuable to the discussion, which would be boring if we all agreed on everything.
make it so easy that every a group with a total noob tank can clear it easily ? do you think that would make kara a fun place many enjoy raiding ?
That depends what you call a total noob tank, and what you call clear it easily. I do play my tank competently and with skill, but he will never get into Kara, because he has 12k health, and the tank we had last night for Nightbane had 16k health unbuffed. The degree of difficulty I would want for Kara would be one where that 12k health tank could beat Nightbane with the same amount of effort that the 16k tank needs now, with the rest of the group being similarily less well geared.
It isn't lack of skill that keeps my priest from visiting the higher level raid dungeons after Karazhan. It is the fact that I first would need to spend hundreds of hours in PvP and Kara raids before I would have a set of gear in which I wouldn't be a burden to my raid group. Nobody even looks at your skill when deciding whether to invite you for a Tempest Keep raid. Unless they are really good friends willing to take you with them as a tourist, the people deciding on the raid composition will look at your stats to decide whether to take you. I did quite a good job with my priest for example keeping one mob permanently shackled at Moroes while still healing. But of course I only had +1100 healing, while the other priest had over +1500, and he had more mana and mana regeneration. Of course he was also better than me from knowing the encounters much better than me, but I can learn an encounter much quicker than I can close the gear gap.
I do think Kara could be a fun place many people would enjoy raiding if a decent group of 10 players who just all hit level 70 could beat it without wiping 20 times on every boss and needing weeks to gather the gear to finally beat it.
@iroh:
Would you then consider a virtuoso pianist to have no skill? After all, all it took was time for s/he to learn notes and fingerings. What about a chess master? Again, you can break it down to time learning the best openings and time spent looking ahead into the game.
Pretty much anything at its fundamental level depends on time. I would argue that, barring special circumstances, almost anyone could eventually become a virtuoso performer, chess master, or develop some sort of skill.
Am I equating WoW players with people such as Schumann, Mitsuko Uchida, Bobby Fischer, or Kasparov? Absolutely not. I wouldn't argue that raiding is limited to the intellectually elite.
But I think this argument that raiding doesn't require skill is a little flawed. I would argue that maintaining aggro well as a tank takes some skill. Healing efficiently takes skill. Reacting quickly to unforeseen events takes skill.
Skill simply means the ability to do something well. Therefore, even if all it takes is time, the ability to play your character well is, by definition, a skill. I wouldn't say that raiding requires everyone to be skilled players, but you'd need some semblance of competency in order to do well.
Would you then consider a virtuoso pianist to have no skill? After all, all it took was time for s/he to learn notes and fingerings. What about a chess master? Again, you can break it down to time learning the best openings and time spent looking ahead into the game.
Pretty much anything at its fundamental level depends on time. I would argue that, barring special circumstances, almost anyone could eventually become a virtuoso performer, chess master, or develop some sort of skill.
Am I equating WoW players with people such as Schumann, Mitsuko Uchida, Bobby Fischer, or Kasparov? Absolutely not. I wouldn't argue that raiding is limited to the intellectually elite.
But I think this argument that raiding doesn't require skill is a little flawed. I would argue that maintaining aggro well as a tank takes some skill. Healing efficiently takes skill. Reacting quickly to unforeseen events takes skill.
Skill simply means the ability to do something well. Therefore, even if all it takes is time, the ability to play your character well is, by definition, a skill. I wouldn't say that raiding requires everyone to be skilled players, but you'd need some semblance of competency in order to do well.
Wow there is a lot of venom being spit here in these comments. I guess it's par for the course concerning MMOs.
Honestly, I love PvP. When TBC was released, all I did was solo-level and play BGs. I was happy EotS was released. I live for killing other players.
Now, I am almost fully geared with S3 arena + newest honor gear, and now I am getting into PUGs for all the five mans and raids. And honestly, it's funner this way.
Everyone knows what they are doing, I can do an instance once or twice and get that "WOW" feeling, but not have to worry about grinding it and being pissed when I don't get a good roll.
I've been running through all of the five mans thus far and just finished Arcatraz last night (wow what a cool instance, esp. when that little green gnome popped out at the end. I lol'ed IRL.) Next up are getting into pugs for The Eye and Karazhan.
It's just a way funner experience, esp. for this PvPer.
Honestly, I love PvP. When TBC was released, all I did was solo-level and play BGs. I was happy EotS was released. I live for killing other players.
Now, I am almost fully geared with S3 arena + newest honor gear, and now I am getting into PUGs for all the five mans and raids. And honestly, it's funner this way.
Everyone knows what they are doing, I can do an instance once or twice and get that "WOW" feeling, but not have to worry about grinding it and being pissed when I don't get a good roll.
I've been running through all of the five mans thus far and just finished Arcatraz last night (wow what a cool instance, esp. when that little green gnome popped out at the end. I lol'ed IRL.) Next up are getting into pugs for The Eye and Karazhan.
It's just a way funner experience, esp. for this PvPer.
Good to see you have some fun in Kara, I am in a guild pushing Archimonde in Hyjal and RoS in BT and we do a full Kara clear every Friday (tonight cant wait!) with about half main characters and half alts to farm badges, loot, DE mats, and some real nice enchanting recipes still drop in there (Sunfire, Mongoose, Soulfrost). My main is a Lock but recently got my Paladin to 70 and attuned and farmed enough honor for 4 pieces of arena season 1 gear, and am going to try to raid my first time as a healer. I am very excited, and nervous at the same time. The best thing about these Kara runs is they are so stress free and casual. Raiding 30+ hours a week, pushing progression, learning encounters is fun but def not stress free, and being able to be silly and goof around with friends is something our whole guild looks forward to. A sign up post goes up Tuesday and the run is filled up with a wait list very quick. People also post what drop they are looking for and we switch people in and out depending on what people need. We set up some ZA runs as well but if your after badges I think a full clear of Kara nets like 21+ badges. So I see Kara in a new light, once was a grind just to gear up for SSC, now its a training ground for alts and newb healers like myself.
# posted by : 11/1/08 18:54
: 11/1/08 18:54
I'll address the "loot" question for myself:
I'd do Kara once or twice with no loot incentive.
Frankly, by the time my guildies were up for Kara I already outgeared the Kara drops for most slots, so gear isn't / wasn't a direct issue.
However, what keeps me coming back to Kara are the badges, though if I preferred, I could get the badges through heroics. A grind either way, you know.
I mean, after all, the very same school of thought that points out that the same quest that was fun the first time, kind of smells the 5th time, is also true for instances and raids. Seeing the setting and performing the choreography with the mob AI the first few times is fun, then once the boss goes down becomes farming like anything else.
And yes, I'll agree with the sentiment that it's a bad design to create a faux elite class by locking raid content behind enormous time sinks. There are plenty of players who are skillful enough to reach anything in the game, but lack the time or guild support to reach that content.
I'd do Kara once or twice with no loot incentive.
Frankly, by the time my guildies were up for Kara I already outgeared the Kara drops for most slots, so gear isn't / wasn't a direct issue.
However, what keeps me coming back to Kara are the badges, though if I preferred, I could get the badges through heroics. A grind either way, you know.
I mean, after all, the very same school of thought that points out that the same quest that was fun the first time, kind of smells the 5th time, is also true for instances and raids. Seeing the setting and performing the choreography with the mob AI the first few times is fun, then once the boss goes down becomes farming like anything else.
And yes, I'll agree with the sentiment that it's a bad design to create a faux elite class by locking raid content behind enormous time sinks. There are plenty of players who are skillful enough to reach anything in the game, but lack the time or guild support to reach that content.
# posted by : 11/1/08 19:47
: 11/1/08 19:47
.....
"And yes, I'll agree with the sentiment that it's a bad design to create a faux elite class by locking raid content behind enormous time sinks. There are plenty of players who are skillful enough to reach anything in the game, but lack the time or guild support to reach that content.".....
good players don´t need much time to clear even the 25 man content in the game. by now "good!" casuals would have arrived in black temple.
but the reality is different:
no raid consists of only good players. every raid has its 1-10 slackers or leechers. so the result is, that the raid is as fast as its
suckiest member. you can have 24 gosus and 1 sucker at the wrong spot and you are stuck...
everyone knows this. back then we had 40 man raids and in our raid only 15-20 people i would call really good players, the rest were leechers and people we shuttled with us (don´t get me wrong, they were guild members and friends and it was no problem at all but fact is 20 people pulled the raid ).
and remmber i speak of a raid that beat naxx before bc.
so balancing raid content IS balancing skill levels nothing more.
"And yes, I'll agree with the sentiment that it's a bad design to create a faux elite class by locking raid content behind enormous time sinks. There are plenty of players who are skillful enough to reach anything in the game, but lack the time or guild support to reach that content.".....
good players don´t need much time to clear even the 25 man content in the game. by now "good!" casuals would have arrived in black temple.
but the reality is different:
no raid consists of only good players. every raid has its 1-10 slackers or leechers. so the result is, that the raid is as fast as its
suckiest member. you can have 24 gosus and 1 sucker at the wrong spot and you are stuck...
everyone knows this. back then we had 40 man raids and in our raid only 15-20 people i would call really good players, the rest were leechers and people we shuttled with us (don´t get me wrong, they were guild members and friends and it was no problem at all but fact is 20 people pulled the raid ).
and remmber i speak of a raid that beat naxx before bc.
so balancing raid content IS balancing skill levels nothing more.
# posted by : 12/1/08 04:29
: 12/1/08 04:29
Beelze, you're calling for skill to play the toons. However, Blizz has made it very clear that soloing the levelling game -which ought to be the tutorial and training on 'How to play your class'- is the way to go. The result is the fact that more and more 'casuals' entering the level cap will not be en par with their class.
Also, the speed levelling causes in a sense the fact that Blizz has had to invent a way to keep the raid instances based on gear checks. What a stupid concept! If the instances were about skill, then this kind of checks would be not needed: the skill would patch the lacking gear.
I'm not the best one to address this, being under lv50 with my main, but I can see the effect of solo-powerlevelling at the Old World content already. Which is the reason why us noobs are not running AQ40 and Naxx anymore, even though they 'are a walk in the park'... There are no content driven players in there anymore, as people are levelling the easy way to reach the cap, skipping from Old World to Outlands at lv58!
Heck, I'm really a noob in here. And already pissed about the way Blizz is treating the newcomers and casual players.
Copra
Also, the speed levelling causes in a sense the fact that Blizz has had to invent a way to keep the raid instances based on gear checks. What a stupid concept! If the instances were about skill, then this kind of checks would be not needed: the skill would patch the lacking gear.
I'm not the best one to address this, being under lv50 with my main, but I can see the effect of solo-powerlevelling at the Old World content already. Which is the reason why us noobs are not running AQ40 and Naxx anymore, even though they 'are a walk in the park'... There are no content driven players in there anymore, as people are levelling the easy way to reach the cap, skipping from Old World to Outlands at lv58!
Heck, I'm really a noob in here. And already pissed about the way Blizz is treating the newcomers and casual players.
Copra
AQ40 is no walk in the park, even at lv70. You still have to learn the bosses, or you will wipe every time.
Try AQ20 instead. Even 'casuals' can have fun there.
Try AQ20 instead. Even 'casuals' can have fun there.
# posted by : 14/1/08 11:30
: 14/1/08 11:30
I think Blizzard has stumbled on to a semblance of the correct formula with Zul'Aman (ZA) and Karazhan (Kara). That is, make an instance that has side goals like downing bosses withing a time limit in ZA or provide optional bosses and summonable bosses such as a dragon in Kara. Those optional goals should be much harder than conquering the instance itself. That gives us the best of both worlds: allowing casual groups to see the bulk of the content in an instance, and giving the elite raiders harder side goals for them to tackle. Hopefully, they follow that formula in the next expansion. The current return on investment they have with those top level instances is very poor from a business standpoint. If I were the project manager for Hyjal/Black Temple/Sunwell Plateau, I wouldn't be able to put together a successful business case for the effort spent v. expected return on something that only 1% of the clientelle can consume.
I guess that's similar to the previous proposal of Tobold's where a raid instance could be set to easy mode.
mm
I guess that's similar to the previous proposal of Tobold's where a raid instance could be set to easy mode.
mm
# posted by : 14/1/08 17:58
: 14/1/08 17:58
"And yes, I'll agree with the sentiment that it's a bad design to create a faux elite class by locking raid content behind enormous time sinks. There are plenty of players who are skillful enough to reach anything in the game, but lack the time or guild support to reach that content."
Allow me a bit of explanation on that...
On my server, Horde-side, you'll have a very tough time finding a guild to take you into Kara unless you have decent gear. The standards vary, but it's a lot more than questing blues-and-greens. And gear is a time sink.
And yeah, a group of casuals might be able to blast through Kara in a couple of nights... a well-geared group with a good class mix who has people who know raiding and know the fights and come on time prepared with consumables (many casual groups don't fit that description very well though).
A group that is learning for the first time and is in entry-level gear will spend a lot more time (and money on repairs and consumables). My point is that raiding is a time sink, farming a raid instance is a different matter. Learning a raid boss is a dual time-sink of raiding time and farming gold to pay for raiding. And IMO, learning a raid boss and beating him is raiding -- beating that same boss again and again with basically the same group isn't raiding, it's farming.
And 'copra' makes a strong point about "gear checks".
I hear about raid boss 'gear checks'. The question arises, why is a 'gear check' needed if raiding is about skill?
The same can be asked about attunements. Truly they are a gear check or time sink, not a skill check.
Personally, I've never hear of a raid boss called a 'skill check'... :)
Allow me a bit of explanation on that...
On my server, Horde-side, you'll have a very tough time finding a guild to take you into Kara unless you have decent gear. The standards vary, but it's a lot more than questing blues-and-greens. And gear is a time sink.
And yeah, a group of casuals might be able to blast through Kara in a couple of nights... a well-geared group with a good class mix who has people who know raiding and know the fights and come on time prepared with consumables (many casual groups don't fit that description very well though).
A group that is learning for the first time and is in entry-level gear will spend a lot more time (and money on repairs and consumables). My point is that raiding is a time sink, farming a raid instance is a different matter. Learning a raid boss is a dual time-sink of raiding time and farming gold to pay for raiding. And IMO, learning a raid boss and beating him is raiding -- beating that same boss again and again with basically the same group isn't raiding, it's farming.
And 'copra' makes a strong point about "gear checks".
I hear about raid boss 'gear checks'. The question arises, why is a 'gear check' needed if raiding is about skill?
The same can be asked about attunements. Truly they are a gear check or time sink, not a skill check.
Personally, I've never hear of a raid boss called a 'skill check'... :)
# posted by : 15/1/08 14:49
: 15/1/08 14:49
...."And 'copra' makes a strong point about "gear checks".
I hear about raid boss 'gear checks'. The question arises, why is a 'gear check' needed if raiding is about skill?
The same can be asked about attunements. Truly they are a gear check or time sink, not a skill check.
Personally, I've never hear of a raid boss called a 'skill check'... :)"....
you are right, there are gear checks in raid content, but this gear checks are to slow down the "skilled" players.
with no gear checks guilds like nihilum would blast through content in like some days, cause with 25 really good players the learning curve and the wiping that you label as time sink is nearly non existant.
so you see what i did there ? the few "real" gear checks aside, the real time sink is the lack of skill.
another easy way to compare things is: take the /played time of nihilum that they needed to complete BT and compare it to casual guilds and their progress and you will recognize that casuals with the same amount of time spent (of course spread over a much larger time frame)won´t ever come close to nihilums progress.
when learning a raid encounter ( meaning wiping at it ;) ) half of the raid understands what to do after 1-5 wipes and the real time sink is to wait for the 5 brain afk lers te get whats going on.
(bosses i still get nightmares from are Razorgore in bwl heigan in Naxx and cthun in aq40 )
I hear about raid boss 'gear checks'. The question arises, why is a 'gear check' needed if raiding is about skill?
The same can be asked about attunements. Truly they are a gear check or time sink, not a skill check.
Personally, I've never hear of a raid boss called a 'skill check'... :)"....
you are right, there are gear checks in raid content, but this gear checks are to slow down the "skilled" players.
with no gear checks guilds like nihilum would blast through content in like some days, cause with 25 really good players the learning curve and the wiping that you label as time sink is nearly non existant.
so you see what i did there ? the few "real" gear checks aside, the real time sink is the lack of skill.
another easy way to compare things is: take the /played time of nihilum that they needed to complete BT and compare it to casual guilds and their progress and you will recognize that casuals with the same amount of time spent (of course spread over a much larger time frame)won´t ever come close to nihilums progress.
when learning a raid encounter ( meaning wiping at it ;) ) half of the raid understands what to do after 1-5 wipes and the real time sink is to wait for the 5 brain afk lers te get whats going on.
(bosses i still get nightmares from are Razorgore in bwl heigan in Naxx and cthun in aq40 )
# posted by : 15/1/08 16:38
: 15/1/08 16:38
Let's look at some cases:
One great problem that has plagued raiding is the cost, and that cost has long been associated with RMT by raiders.
And a top raiding guild was booted for hacking walls in raid content to avoid the time sink of trash.
A top raiding guild mocked Blizzard with a "map" of an instance that was a maze of trash mobs.
Blizzard systematically nerfs raid content and attunement requirements.
Finally, you've offered no logic to back up your claim that the real time sink is lack of skill. Rather, when you say "... cause with 25 really good players the learning curve and the wiping that you label as time sink is nearly non existant" what you're saying, oddly enough, is that raiding requires little actual skill, so Blizzard added time sinks to add to the lifespan of raiding.
One great problem that has plagued raiding is the cost, and that cost has long been associated with RMT by raiders.
And a top raiding guild was booted for hacking walls in raid content to avoid the time sink of trash.
A top raiding guild mocked Blizzard with a "map" of an instance that was a maze of trash mobs.
Blizzard systematically nerfs raid content and attunement requirements.
Finally, you've offered no logic to back up your claim that the real time sink is lack of skill. Rather, when you say "... cause with 25 really good players the learning curve and the wiping that you label as time sink is nearly non existant" what you're saying, oddly enough, is that raiding requires little actual skill, so Blizzard added time sinks to add to the lifespan of raiding.
# posted by : 15/1/08 23:00
: 15/1/08 23:00
One of my guildies had a very good analogy about raiding. He liken it to Sports where it's constant practice and constant strategizing and constant critique for gameplay improvments. Which actually does sound a lot like raiding. The Raid Leader is the coach who would either be wiping the team members hard, conjoling, etc.
Gear checks? Yes. Skill checks? Yes. Strategy agreement? Yes.
A friend who is in the top guild on the server also told me that they don't curse, swear at people on vent but they do point out what needs improvement. The difference between them and my casual guild was that their raiders were more open to suggestions and willing to try it out. Casuals may not always be that willing because they may not understand what is needed.
The one thing that Blizzard can't change is the stress level experienced during a raid. Human factor, difficult to control. That factor, more than anything else, has contributed to frustrations at raiding.
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Gear checks? Yes. Skill checks? Yes. Strategy agreement? Yes.
A friend who is in the top guild on the server also told me that they don't curse, swear at people on vent but they do point out what needs improvement. The difference between them and my casual guild was that their raiders were more open to suggestions and willing to try it out. Casuals may not always be that willing because they may not understand what is needed.
The one thing that Blizzard can't change is the stress level experienced during a raid. Human factor, difficult to control. That factor, more than anything else, has contributed to frustrations at raiding.
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