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Tuesday, February 19, 2008
MMORPGs, the new religion
I was working on an article about some issues I have with my warrior, and the first thing that sprang to mind was: "I better preface that with some positive remarks". Because every time I criticize some minor feature in WoW, I get two types of response: The WoW fanbois coming after me with torches and pitchforks because of my blasphemy, and the WoW haters telling me that "I agree, WoW sucks, you should stop playing". When have people lost the ability to see a game as a sum of many features, some of which you like more, and some of which you like less? When has WoW become a religion, which you can only accept or reject as a whole?
I must be somewhere around 4,000 hours of /played time in World of Warcraft. I'm playing the game since the beta in September 2004, except for a 7-month break I took last year. Assuming I could possibly "hate" WoW is idiotic. But I'm not putting World of Warcraft on a pedestal either. I have tried every possible mode of gameplay, including raiding and PvP, and I have played every class and race, some more, some less. Of course there are features which are less good than others. And of course there are features that just happen to hit my personal preferences perfectly, while others are less suited for me, on a totally subjective basis. And where else than my personal blog to discuss the things I like or dislike about a game?
But some people apparently have become unable to discuss details of MMORPGs, be it WoW or WAR or another game. Reminds me a bit of a discussion I once had with a Catholic on whether Mary was a "virgin", or whether that was just a translation error from Aramaic. For me that was just a minor detail, but to him questioning that detail was equivalent to questioning the whole of Christian religion. The history of Europe is full of centuries of war and strife where Christians killed each other over such minor differences of interpretation of what is fundamentally the same faith. We aren't quite there yet with MMORPGs, but the MMOPRG-religious nutters are already all over the internet.
What suffers is rational discussion. When I read some of the blog posts hailing Warhammer Online as the next messiah, full with religious fervor, I can only feel sorry for those who believe it. It is simply impossible for any game to live up to that level of hype. I sure hope that WAR will be a very good game, with fun PvP *and* PvE. But my expectations are limited to a reasonable evolutionary improvement over Dark Age of Camelot, not a revolutionary innovation that breaks through the inherent conflict of having character development and PvP in the same game. Hearing about how WAR is going to make PvP "meaningful" makes me wince, if you want to do something meaningful with your life I'd recommend doing it in the real world. Expecting a video game to give meaning to your life is bound to end in disappointment.
And that is something I observe as well: Not only are MMORPGs treated religiously, but there is also a eternal cycle of hailing a new game as the next big thing, being disappointed by reality, and condemning it as a false god, before moving on to hailing the next game. It's all a bit scary, the level of fervor that a simple game can evoke. Because in the end that is what they are: games. Supposed to entertain, not to become a major purpose of your life. We should go back to rationally discussing MMORPG features, not worshiping them.
- posted by Tobold @ 8:14 AM Permanent Link
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Amen and Hallelujah!
Sorry, couldn't help it: IMO your post has hit the spot. It's very much on the same lines as my thoughts that people have somehow lost the fact that it's only a game, a passtime, something fun to do when you don't have anything else to do.
In short, people are taking the games way too seriously.
It seems to me that it isn't a question of hc-raiders vs casuals, but a question of devotion and dedication vs leisure and having fun.
Oops. There was another analogue to the religious vocabulary. I better stop before I'm being charged by the Spanish Inquisition!
Copra
Sorry, couldn't help it: IMO your post has hit the spot. It's very much on the same lines as my thoughts that people have somehow lost the fact that it's only a game, a passtime, something fun to do when you don't have anything else to do.
In short, people are taking the games way too seriously.
It seems to me that it isn't a question of hc-raiders vs casuals, but a question of devotion and dedication vs leisure and having fun.
Oops. There was another analogue to the religious vocabulary. I better stop before I'm being charged by the Spanish Inquisition!
Copra
People with strong opinions ("WoW fanbois" and "WoW haters") tends to be the loudest.
The silent majority, the mainstream gamer, might read your block, but they don't really reflect on the gameplay. You're quite epic in that respect :)
The silent majority, the mainstream gamer, might read your block, but they don't really reflect on the gameplay. You're quite epic in that respect :)
You think MMORPGs "religious wars" are bad?
Try "vim vs. xemacs"... or programming languages such as "Python vs. Perl"... :)
Try "vim vs. xemacs"... or programming languages such as "Python vs. Perl"... :)
I don't know if you consider me to be a fanboi or not. I do get annoyed with people constantly saying what is bad in WoW. Yes, there are plenty of thigs about it that I would like to change, but overall, I still think it is probably the best game I have ever played.
What I don't get is people who hate WoW and want it to fail somehow. As you said, it is a game. If you don't like it don't play it.
I also don't get people on-line who say 'I'm bored, I have nothing to do'.
Yes you do have something to do - press the exit button and go do something else in the real world.
What I don't get is people who hate WoW and want it to fail somehow. As you said, it is a game. If you don't like it don't play it.
I also don't get people on-line who say 'I'm bored, I have nothing to do'.
Yes you do have something to do - press the exit button and go do something else in the real world.
# posted by 
: 19/2/08 12:02
: 19/2/08 12:02
Unfortunately, MMOGs are the main bragging point for some peoples lives. It is sad when that is all they can list as an accomplishment. "I killed X, I'm so BADDD" lol.
Oh well. I think many people put down WoW because it is their only MMOG experience and they are "mad" that the game sucked so much of their time and they really have naught to show for it. Being a long time gamer with 5 MMOGs under my belt, I knew that WoW like every other game will eventually be worthless so I'm not angry at the timesink it was like new players get.
I'm currently just relaxing, enjoying some reading & actually doing positive things in life so when I spend two months in the next MMOG or even singleplayer game, I will have done other things in my life and not get angry at the time I spent in a game like so many people do.
Think about it, if you dropped out of school and quit your jog to play WoW all the time but eventually woke up and quit the game, you would be mad at it too like they are. I just hope they wake up and move on with life. No game is worth 5hrs a day...please!
Oh well. I think many people put down WoW because it is their only MMOG experience and they are "mad" that the game sucked so much of their time and they really have naught to show for it. Being a long time gamer with 5 MMOGs under my belt, I knew that WoW like every other game will eventually be worthless so I'm not angry at the timesink it was like new players get.
I'm currently just relaxing, enjoying some reading & actually doing positive things in life so when I spend two months in the next MMOG or even singleplayer game, I will have done other things in my life and not get angry at the time I spent in a game like so many people do.
Think about it, if you dropped out of school and quit your jog to play WoW all the time but eventually woke up and quit the game, you would be mad at it too like they are. I just hope they wake up and move on with life. No game is worth 5hrs a day...please!
# posted by : 19/2/08 12:37
: 19/2/08 12:37
"Hearing about how WAR is going to make PvP "meaningful" makes me wince, if you want to do something meaningful with your life I'd recommend doing it in the real world."
I really think your taking the usage of the word meaningful here out of context. Your reading far too much into it.
They simply mean to make it have more of an effect on the game world.
I really think your taking the usage of the word meaningful here out of context. Your reading far too much into it.
They simply mean to make it have more of an effect on the game world.
# posted by : 19/2/08 12:38
: 19/2/08 12:38
“Familiarity brings contempt” but Familiarity also brings comfort.
A lot of haters were once WoW fans and hate simply because they have out grown the game. Others love the time and investment that have put into WoW and defend WoW with equal venom of the haters.
Then there are those, like myself, who simply want something new ( I love the levelling process which I have done three times, end game is not for me) and move on (currently playing LOTRO).
The worst non-smokers are ex-smokers. The worst defenders of smoking are smokers!
A lot of haters were once WoW fans and hate simply because they have out grown the game. Others love the time and investment that have put into WoW and defend WoW with equal venom of the haters.
Then there are those, like myself, who simply want something new ( I love the levelling process which I have done three times, end game is not for me) and move on (currently playing LOTRO).
The worst non-smokers are ex-smokers. The worst defenders of smoking are smokers!
nah tobold you dont have a clue here. WOW fanboism is just like other stuff , you in europe must know how bad it is with soccer fans.
is it religion ? no wai. it just a grp of ppl fanatically defending stuff they love.
and to read you say'christian kill ppl/eachother' just sadden me. tru christian dont do that. they dont kill other ppl of different faith.
i know europe is now bereft of God and religion, most of european are nihilism, atheism or just plain clueless.
will you need religion ? no, but everyone need God and in your little heart you will know that
God <> religion
cheers
is it religion ? no wai. it just a grp of ppl fanatically defending stuff they love.
and to read you say'christian kill ppl/eachother' just sadden me. tru christian dont do that. they dont kill other ppl of different faith.
i know europe is now bereft of God and religion, most of european are nihilism, atheism or just plain clueless.
will you need religion ? no, but everyone need God and in your little heart you will know that
God <> religion
cheers
# posted by : 19/2/08 14:14
: 19/2/08 14:14
and to read you say'christian kill ppl/eachother' just sadden me. tru christian dont do that. they dont kill other ppl of different faith.
While I totally agree that the crusades and reformation wars were far from being *true* Christian acts, they nevertheless happened in the name of Christianity. And by the way, the "Islamic Jihad" and terrorism are also rather far from *true* Islam. Most religions are rather peaceful in their teachings. That hasn't prevented people in history abusing religion as a reason for war and killing.
While I totally agree that the crusades and reformation wars were far from being *true* Christian acts, they nevertheless happened in the name of Christianity. And by the way, the "Islamic Jihad" and terrorism are also rather far from *true* Islam. Most religions are rather peaceful in their teachings. That hasn't prevented people in history abusing religion as a reason for war and killing.
I don't think this is an MMO phenomenon, per se. Talking about *anything* over the internet results in excessively strong opinions on either side.
I think people are just trying to make a point, but with only text as a medium (and a small amount of text at that), they try to make up for eloquence with...conviction =).
I think people are just trying to make a point, but with only text as a medium (and a small amount of text at that), they try to make up for eloquence with...conviction =).
# posted by : 19/2/08 14:37
: 19/2/08 14:37
As others have said, this seems to apply to all computer games, and does make it harder to talk about them without having it turn into a big argument. (the occasional times I have read the official WoW forums, which may just be the worst example, can be quite mentally painful.)
A lot of it seems to be that people with strong opinions tend to talk the most, and will be the most argumentative, which fills up a lot of discussion with that particular style of discussion, and drowns out the calmer people.
Personally, I tend not to be a big hater of computer games, I just tend to look at them and think of ways to fix what seem to be the biggest problems with them\, while stopping playing that game is it isn't worth the time anymore.
A lot of it seems to be that people with strong opinions tend to talk the most, and will be the most argumentative, which fills up a lot of discussion with that particular style of discussion, and drowns out the calmer people.
Personally, I tend not to be a big hater of computer games, I just tend to look at them and think of ways to fix what seem to be the biggest problems with them\, while stopping playing that game is it isn't worth the time anymore.
i know europe is now bereft of God and religion, most of european are nihilism, atheism or just plain clueless.
have you ever been to Europe?
In germany they pay formal tithes to the church as a tax that get used for a variety of purposes including social help. I'd say Europeans are about as religous as your average american. It's just usually easier to have a discussion about religion without some rabid zealot trying to shut the conversation down because it makes them uncomfortable.
have you ever been to Europe?
In germany they pay formal tithes to the church as a tax that get used for a variety of purposes including social help. I'd say Europeans are about as religous as your average american. It's just usually easier to have a discussion about religion without some rabid zealot trying to shut the conversation down because it makes them uncomfortable.
back to the topic. I think one of the other posters hit the nail. Too many people are using WOW as a tool to boost thier ego. Thier toons become thier armour against the real world. They advance when careers are stalled. They succeed against the Evil forces of thier world, and can say and do whatever they want with little or no consequence. So at some point for people like that thier toon actually becomes an integral part of thier ego
@anonymous :
"will you need religion ? no, but everyone need God and in your little heart you will know that"
I always had a problem with people trying to generalise their faith:
I do need God ==> Everybody needs God ==> Ppl who say they do not are either lying or simply not aware they do.
Well my friend (?) I respect your feelings about religion and God, just allow me to differ.
Am I a nihilist? No ! An atheist? Yup, I am.
Do I have respect for believers? Yes I do.
Does this make me a bad person? Anyhow, this makes me a more open minded person you seem to be.
Gehenne
"will you need religion ? no, but everyone need God and in your little heart you will know that"
I always had a problem with people trying to generalise their faith:
I do need God ==> Everybody needs God ==> Ppl who say they do not are either lying or simply not aware they do.
Well my friend (?) I respect your feelings about religion and God, just allow me to differ.
Am I a nihilist? No ! An atheist? Yup, I am.
Do I have respect for believers? Yes I do.
Does this make me a bad person? Anyhow, this makes me a more open minded person you seem to be.
Gehenne
# posted by : 19/2/08 18:01
: 19/2/08 18:01
You had to see it coming with the choice of subject title, Tobold... but it's almost tragi-comic how whenever you touch a nerve, your blog subject quickly gets hijacked :)
People, back to topic. 'God' and 'religion' in a strict sense has nothing to do with being absorbed by or obsessed with WoW, game mechanics in general or gamer lifestyle, and wanting to discuss it :)
People, back to topic. 'God' and 'religion' in a strict sense has nothing to do with being absorbed by or obsessed with WoW, game mechanics in general or gamer lifestyle, and wanting to discuss it :)
Another excellent topic Tobold.
I think fanaticism can present itself in any area of our lives and I really believe that is what you are referring too (versus 'religion'). Some people could also have the same vehement discussions from cat-haters and cat-lovers.
For some reason, people tend to "lock onto" or "glue themselves" to some ideology or belief of something (which may be-though not always-subjective) and then defend their position 'fanatically'. Why? Heck, I'm not entirely sure why but I agree with you that it stimes true discussion.
Perhaps it has something to do with people finding it easier to stick with an ideology (flawed tho it may be) to their grave rather than to actually struggle with a new thought/idea. Or perhaps it scares them to think differently b/c they perceive some negative concequence.
A good view would be for everyone to stop before they respond and ask themselves why these feelings of 'love/hate' are surfacing and perhaps try to put themselves in the original poster's shoes first.
BTW...I totally agree that WoW is a great game and I love playing it but yes, it is full of flaws as well. Keep the great discussions going...
I think fanaticism can present itself in any area of our lives and I really believe that is what you are referring too (versus 'religion'). Some people could also have the same vehement discussions from cat-haters and cat-lovers.
For some reason, people tend to "lock onto" or "glue themselves" to some ideology or belief of something (which may be-though not always-subjective) and then defend their position 'fanatically'. Why? Heck, I'm not entirely sure why but I agree with you that it stimes true discussion.
Perhaps it has something to do with people finding it easier to stick with an ideology (flawed tho it may be) to their grave rather than to actually struggle with a new thought/idea. Or perhaps it scares them to think differently b/c they perceive some negative concequence.
A good view would be for everyone to stop before they respond and ask themselves why these feelings of 'love/hate' are surfacing and perhaps try to put themselves in the original poster's shoes first.
BTW...I totally agree that WoW is a great game and I love playing it but yes, it is full of flaws as well. Keep the great discussions going...
# posted by : 20/2/08 01:17
: 20/2/08 01:17
atheism is the worst kind of fanatism, its god is science and darwin is its prophet.
in its zeal to deny GOD they go all the way to prove GOD dont exist and therefore shame themselves.
Christian is not a religion, any organized religion run risk of being corrupted. and this apply to all organization even science.
back then there is a concencuss that earth history was stable with no major catasthropy. a person who dare to raise chaos/catasthropy theory will be attacked by the scientisc community. Nowadayws, catasthropy theory in earth history is accepted. ditto with global warming theory. it is the biggest scam ever and every fool in this world with no understanding for climate/weather already parroting these fake science.
UFO belief (and SETI) is a kind of religion too , with aliens as their gods. they wont even consider than alien might not exist and we truly alone in the universe. remember time and space is the limitation factor here.
back to WOW fanboism. it is definitely NOT a religion as its just a game. a woman can be addicted to a slotmachine but did she pray to it ? someone can get high in a stadium supporting his football team but did he pray to the football team?
The great debate between hardcore raider and casual player is NOTHING MORE than a debate on playstyle preference.
tobold pleae dont drag gaming into religion, its laughable and sad if you think like gaming=religion. but its your own opinion though and your blog so you can say anyting no matter how stupid it is :)
"keep silent if you dont know anything because ppl might think you are wise and knowledgable. Open your mouth and ppl will know your stupidity"
in its zeal to deny GOD they go all the way to prove GOD dont exist and therefore shame themselves.
Christian is not a religion, any organized religion run risk of being corrupted. and this apply to all organization even science.
back then there is a concencuss that earth history was stable with no major catasthropy. a person who dare to raise chaos/catasthropy theory will be attacked by the scientisc community. Nowadayws, catasthropy theory in earth history is accepted. ditto with global warming theory. it is the biggest scam ever and every fool in this world with no understanding for climate/weather already parroting these fake science.
UFO belief (and SETI) is a kind of religion too , with aliens as their gods. they wont even consider than alien might not exist and we truly alone in the universe. remember time and space is the limitation factor here.
back to WOW fanboism. it is definitely NOT a religion as its just a game. a woman can be addicted to a slotmachine but did she pray to it ? someone can get high in a stadium supporting his football team but did he pray to the football team?
The great debate between hardcore raider and casual player is NOTHING MORE than a debate on playstyle preference.
tobold pleae dont drag gaming into religion, its laughable and sad if you think like gaming=religion. but its your own opinion though and your blog so you can say anyting no matter how stupid it is :)
"keep silent if you dont know anything because ppl might think you are wise and knowledgable. Open your mouth and ppl will know your stupidity"
# posted by : 20/2/08 04:13
: 20/2/08 04:13
@sam
Paying church tithe and Going to church is only religious habit and rule. its organized religion. real christian apply the teaching of Jesus in their life (in their heart because all good/evil stuff come from the hearth 1st)
@Armand
I think casual player who enjoy WOW's 1-60-70 want another type of gaming instead of raid oriented endgame. they (casuals) also invested time for their character and want to see other part of MMORPG / RP in endgame. the notion that casual want free epix is wrong. casual dont want epix (although lot of raider want easier epixx) casual want alternative (horizontal) endgame activities.
@gehenne
dear, every human being got a concsience that will tell you right and wrong. if you dont believe in JESUS (hey, its your choice) then at the end-time judgment your conscience will be your judge. truthfully there is no on in this world that can say he is without fault.
Even real Christian still SIN and its reality as long as we life in this earth as human being. so we ALL need a Saviour who can bear our sin and HE will cleanse us. in the judgement time it will be Christ that allow us in.
look, There is no lawyer or smart-talk that can pass you thru judgement seat. and you cannot say 'i never heard that believing in JESUS can save your life' either. well you read in tobold's blog now :)
in the end its your choice to believe or not, and the consequence will be no your own shoulder.
Paying church tithe and Going to church is only religious habit and rule. its organized religion. real christian apply the teaching of Jesus in their life (in their heart because all good/evil stuff come from the hearth 1st)
@Armand
I think casual player who enjoy WOW's 1-60-70 want another type of gaming instead of raid oriented endgame. they (casuals) also invested time for their character and want to see other part of MMORPG / RP in endgame. the notion that casual want free epix is wrong. casual dont want epix (although lot of raider want easier epixx) casual want alternative (horizontal) endgame activities.
@gehenne
dear, every human being got a concsience that will tell you right and wrong. if you dont believe in JESUS (hey, its your choice) then at the end-time judgment your conscience will be your judge. truthfully there is no on in this world that can say he is without fault.
Even real Christian still SIN and its reality as long as we life in this earth as human being. so we ALL need a Saviour who can bear our sin and HE will cleanse us. in the judgement time it will be Christ that allow us in.
look, There is no lawyer or smart-talk that can pass you thru judgement seat. and you cannot say 'i never heard that believing in JESUS can save your life' either. well you read in tobold's blog now :)
in the end its your choice to believe or not, and the consequence will be no your own shoulder.
# posted by : 20/2/08 04:25
: 20/2/08 04:25
@ anonymous
“atheism is the worst kind of fanatism, its god is science and darwin is its prophet. in its zeal to deny GOD they go all the way to prove GOD dont exist and therefore shame themselves.”
Again, this kind of generalisation only proves your intolerance. I do not care about what you believe as long as you do not permit yourself to judge others who think differently. From the moment you do, or try to force others to share this opinion it is called fundamentalism. Fundamentalism should be fought, be it Christian, Muslim, scientologist or even atheist.
@ anonymous
“look, There is no lawyer or smart-talk that can pass you thru judgement seat. and you cannot say 'i never heard that believing in JESUS can save your life' either. well you read in tobold's blog now :)”
Again you are prisoner of your way of thinking. I do not believe I will be judged, by Jesus or by anyone. I do not believe there is an “after-death”. My guess is, I will end up eaten by worms and become part of the ecosystem, which is OK to me.
If you do believe differently, it is also OK to me.
“in the end its your choice to believe or not, and the consequence will be no your own shoulder.”
I do not choose my opinions based on some risk calculation, you know. I read the Coran, I read the Bible, and ended up not to believe.
About risk, did you ever realise that each religion is a blasphemy to all others.
For Muslims it is a blasphemy to make a representation of the prophets, yet all Christians do on their crucifix. For Catholics it is a blasphemy to say that Maria was no virgin, yet other Christians do. For Christians it is a blasphemy to say that Jesus was no son of God and that he did not resurrect, Muslims do.
Maybe you will have to face the consequences if at Judgement Day you face Allah, or a Catholic Jesus, or even, why not, some long forgotten polytheist African deity.
In that case, I will too. Let just accept it.
Gehenne
“atheism is the worst kind of fanatism, its god is science and darwin is its prophet. in its zeal to deny GOD they go all the way to prove GOD dont exist and therefore shame themselves.”
Again, this kind of generalisation only proves your intolerance. I do not care about what you believe as long as you do not permit yourself to judge others who think differently. From the moment you do, or try to force others to share this opinion it is called fundamentalism. Fundamentalism should be fought, be it Christian, Muslim, scientologist or even atheist.
@ anonymous
“look, There is no lawyer or smart-talk that can pass you thru judgement seat. and you cannot say 'i never heard that believing in JESUS can save your life' either. well you read in tobold's blog now :)”
Again you are prisoner of your way of thinking. I do not believe I will be judged, by Jesus or by anyone. I do not believe there is an “after-death”. My guess is, I will end up eaten by worms and become part of the ecosystem, which is OK to me.
If you do believe differently, it is also OK to me.
“in the end its your choice to believe or not, and the consequence will be no your own shoulder.”
I do not choose my opinions based on some risk calculation, you know. I read the Coran, I read the Bible, and ended up not to believe.
About risk, did you ever realise that each religion is a blasphemy to all others.
For Muslims it is a blasphemy to make a representation of the prophets, yet all Christians do on their crucifix. For Catholics it is a blasphemy to say that Maria was no virgin, yet other Christians do. For Christians it is a blasphemy to say that Jesus was no son of God and that he did not resurrect, Muslims do.
Maybe you will have to face the consequences if at Judgement Day you face Allah, or a Catholic Jesus, or even, why not, some long forgotten polytheist African deity.
In that case, I will too. Let just accept it.
Gehenne
# posted by : 20/2/08 10:54
: 20/2/08 10:54
The posters above have said what I wanted to say, especially Coprolit, Solidstate, and Popcorn.
And to Anonymous:
Perhaps you would get better reception from people you converse with if you didn't:
A.) Drag any and all conversation that even hints at something being religious in the broadest sense of the term, and use that as a sounding board for stating your own beliefs as though they were somehow set-in-stone truths that everyone should also follow
B.) Take on such a narrow-minded viewset that you feel the need to scold other posters for what their opinions/beliefs are. Tolerance is a two-way street, and if I remember correctly, a certain someone named Jesus also preached about tolerance and not 'casting the first stone' and not judging others, which is pretty much exactly what you're doing.
C.) Choose to bring such a loud 'come to religion' vibe to the conversation.
You remind me of a Statistics professor I once had at my university back in Thailand (which was started by people from the Brothers of Saint Gabriel, so it had a church and such on the grounds but was no more 'religious' in its teachings than any other institute). I'd met him while walking to my next class, and out of the blue he asked me if I was Christian.
"No," I said.
"Well, then I suppose you're a Buddhist like most people in this country." He then went on to say, "You do know that all non-Christians -- Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, and the like -- will end up in hell? Of course the Christians who don't go to church will also end up in hell."
I didn't say anything, completely shocked at this man giving out brimstone and hellfire so easily, as though it was some sort of universal truth.
"The only way to avoid hell is to become a Christian and go to church," he told me.
I would have told him to stop stuffing his own beliefs down my throat and call him out for being a bigot, but as it is, Thai decorum surfaced and all I did was politely excuse myself. I don't think he would have listened to anything I had to say anyway.
And to Anonymous:
Perhaps you would get better reception from people you converse with if you didn't:
A.) Drag any and all conversation that even hints at something being religious in the broadest sense of the term, and use that as a sounding board for stating your own beliefs as though they were somehow set-in-stone truths that everyone should also follow
B.) Take on such a narrow-minded viewset that you feel the need to scold other posters for what their opinions/beliefs are. Tolerance is a two-way street, and if I remember correctly, a certain someone named Jesus also preached about tolerance and not 'casting the first stone' and not judging others, which is pretty much exactly what you're doing.
C.) Choose to bring such a loud 'come to religion' vibe to the conversation.
You remind me of a Statistics professor I once had at my university back in Thailand (which was started by people from the Brothers of Saint Gabriel, so it had a church and such on the grounds but was no more 'religious' in its teachings than any other institute). I'd met him while walking to my next class, and out of the blue he asked me if I was Christian.
"No," I said.
"Well, then I suppose you're a Buddhist like most people in this country." He then went on to say, "You do know that all non-Christians -- Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, and the like -- will end up in hell? Of course the Christians who don't go to church will also end up in hell."
I didn't say anything, completely shocked at this man giving out brimstone and hellfire so easily, as though it was some sort of universal truth.
"The only way to avoid hell is to become a Christian and go to church," he told me.
I would have told him to stop stuffing his own beliefs down my throat and call him out for being a bigot, but as it is, Thai decorum surfaced and all I did was politely excuse myself. I don't think he would have listened to anything I had to say anyway.
@ anonyomous,,,,(sorry to allow the hijack to continue tobold)
Christian is not a religion, any organized religion run risk of being corrupted. and this apply to all organization even science.
you keep arguing apples and oranges. Aethism isn't an organization. Science isn't an organization. And you are correct Christian isn't an organization.
However they are all represented fairly or not by Organizations that convince people or not.
yes any organization will have corruption. However if you honestly believe that all churches are bad or all aethists are bad or all scientists are bad you demonstrate your ignorance.
Some of the most caring helpful people I know are aethiest's. One could quite succesfully argue that they are actually more christian than a self proclaimed christian because they actually do good deeds and help thier fellow man with no expectation of reward in the afterlife.
The fact is there are an equal amount of good and bad people in and out of religion. So launching such a poorly thought out defense of something that wasn't really attacked just demonstrates your inflexibility of thought and doesn't really help you bring anyone to your side.
Which being a christian myself is to convince people to join your cause not alienate them.
However your silly passive/aggressive argument is a really good mirror for the types of gamers and the way the defend or attack WOW and other MMO's. I think It pretty much proves that these kind's of arguments will occur anytime someone feels they should "educate" the stupid people and bring them into the proverbial fold. Unfortunately that type of attitude is rarely helpful, and almost never has the desired affect.
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Christian is not a religion, any organized religion run risk of being corrupted. and this apply to all organization even science.
you keep arguing apples and oranges. Aethism isn't an organization. Science isn't an organization. And you are correct Christian isn't an organization.
However they are all represented fairly or not by Organizations that convince people or not.
yes any organization will have corruption. However if you honestly believe that all churches are bad or all aethists are bad or all scientists are bad you demonstrate your ignorance.
Some of the most caring helpful people I know are aethiest's. One could quite succesfully argue that they are actually more christian than a self proclaimed christian because they actually do good deeds and help thier fellow man with no expectation of reward in the afterlife.
The fact is there are an equal amount of good and bad people in and out of religion. So launching such a poorly thought out defense of something that wasn't really attacked just demonstrates your inflexibility of thought and doesn't really help you bring anyone to your side.
Which being a christian myself is to convince people to join your cause not alienate them.
However your silly passive/aggressive argument is a really good mirror for the types of gamers and the way the defend or attack WOW and other MMO's. I think It pretty much proves that these kind's of arguments will occur anytime someone feels they should "educate" the stupid people and bring them into the proverbial fold. Unfortunately that type of attitude is rarely helpful, and almost never has the desired affect.
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