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Monday, April 07, 2008
Class warfare
Ontherocks wrote me with an interesting observation:
What has happened to this game? You've played since the beginning, myself since about 6 months post-launch and at no time prior to TBC do I ever remember such Class Warfare between what is essentially the same demographic. I've been a raider, I'm a "casual" now and have been sometimes in between but the game now generates much angst within the community and unlike pre-TBC where it was directed at Devs (in the form of "nerf this" and "buff that" cries) it is now directed between players.I think the class warfare between casuals and hardcore is older than that, it dates back to the first guilds defining themselves as "raiding guilds". What TBC added to that what the devs themselves infamously called "welfare epics", and then lazily proceeded to use the same armor models for. That made obvious a fact that more rational people knew all along: That raiding isn't in any way "superior" to other modes of gameplay. In the perception of the general population raiders moved from being the guys in the awesome gear everyone wanted to have to just people who played the game in a different way, grace to having more available time. The lack of mutual respect comes from the two groups having very little contact with each other, sometimes even if they are in the same guild. The casuals are dismissed by the raiders of being no use to them, because they don't have the hours of wipe experience for each boss that teaches you how to beat them, nor the right kind of gear. Meanwhile the raiders are of no use to the casuals either, because the raiders are so busy with their raids and their farming stuff to finance raids that they never have the time to play in a casual group, nor do they have the desire.
If there is a negative change in WoW since the launch of TBC, it really boils down to the fact that Blizzard's design choices have pitted players against each other. A series of negative cascading effects has led us to the point where there are now 2 distinct groups of players and they, for all intents and purposes, DO NOT like each other. Worse yet, there is a genuine lack of mutual respect between the players in the community.
In hindsight, the fact that in pre-TBC, non-raiders got rolled in PvP by raiders due to the gear inquality, there was never this level of anger and venom on display. Sad that a game I have enjoyed for so long has devolved into this.
The increasing acrimony is probably just an effect of burnout. MMORPGs are curious in that many people don't stop playing when they stop having fun; instead they keep playing with a more and more negative attitude, complaining all the time on the official forums. And as Ontherocks remarks, the negativity is directed badly at other players. Not only casuals vs. hardcore, but also mages fighting warlocks, or other classes crying for somebody else to be nerfed. It is an illusion that you could have more fun if only fun was taken away from somebody else. World of Warcraft certainly has balancing problems, but these are more due to the impossibility of balancing classes in a way that they are equivalent but different in solo play, group play, and all the various forms of PvP.
But the real culprit is game design. The separation of raiders from casuals stems directly from the arms race between developers and top raiders, in which the devs try to create harder and harder content, and the players try to beat it. They do succeed at beating it, but only at the price of getting completely separated from the rest of the population. Meanwhile even the easiest raid dungeon is designed to be too hard for a pickup group of casual players, which only increases the resentment between casuals and raiders.
I still believe that the arms race should be stopped, that raiding should be made a lot easier and a lot more accessible for a much wider part of the population. It is only World of Warcraft where the casual do PvP and the hardcore do PvE, in all other games it is the other way around. PvP is a lot easier to use as occupation for the hardcore, because it scales itself: you measure yourself directly against the other hardcore players, and not against content designed by devs. Ideally every part of the player base should have access to all parts of the game, play a bit of everything, with a preference for whatever suits you most. The current system in WoW where you basically specialize in one form of gameplay and can't easily switch to another form is harmful.
- posted by Tobold @ 7:12 AM Permanent Link
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Curiously enough, 2.4 made it possible to get PvP gear by doing PvE on all endgame levels. You get PvP blues from instancing, S1 epics from T4, S2 epics from T5 and S3 epics from T6. A cynic like me would say that people don't actually want PvE and PvP integration, despite Blizzard's numerous attempts in doing so.
There was similar 'warfare' in the early months of LotRO, but since Turbine planted their feet firmly in casual territory from the get go and have only consolidated their position since, the PvE hardcore types have mostly left or adapted by now, and the PvP hardcore types will soon be off to AoC or WAR.
Turbine's approach to development is to give all distinct groups in their playerbase a little bit of what they want, instead of focussing primarily on any one or two bigger groups, as in WoW.
The problem with this approach is that the hungriest group when it comes to content, the high-end PvEers and raiders, simply run out of things to do, and are left with the choice of either PvPing or getting their content fix elsewhere.
As it stands, we are looking at close to a 12 month gap between the addition of the last standard instance and the next one, and similar gaps between raid instances. For a game that was very light on end-game content at launch, it isn't an ideal scenario.
On the other hand, Turbine's trump card will always be the license, and no matter how frustrated certain players get with lack of content, a large proportion will always be drawn back at the prospect of exploring more of Middle-Earth.
Turbine's approach to development is to give all distinct groups in their playerbase a little bit of what they want, instead of focussing primarily on any one or two bigger groups, as in WoW.
The problem with this approach is that the hungriest group when it comes to content, the high-end PvEers and raiders, simply run out of things to do, and are left with the choice of either PvPing or getting their content fix elsewhere.
As it stands, we are looking at close to a 12 month gap between the addition of the last standard instance and the next one, and similar gaps between raid instances. For a game that was very light on end-game content at launch, it isn't an ideal scenario.
On the other hand, Turbine's trump card will always be the license, and no matter how frustrated certain players get with lack of content, a large proportion will always be drawn back at the prospect of exploring more of Middle-Earth.
It's not just class warfare. WoW culture is downright sadomasochistic and schizophrenic. Players abuse each other for any small reason they can latch on to or even no reason at all, and many seem to actually invite the abuse. Just check the official WoW forums -- Chernobyl isn't half as toxic!
Tobold, Io think you nailed it when you said that many people have burned out. They aren't enjoying the game anymore, but instead of quitting they wallow in their misery and spread it to the others.
Tobold, Io think you nailed it when you said that many people have burned out. They aren't enjoying the game anymore, but instead of quitting they wallow in their misery and spread it to the others.
# posted by 
: 7/4/08 13:53
: 7/4/08 13:53
As a PvP player, I hate to say it, but the addition of resilience and Arena gear has ruined the game.
The Arena gear was mudflation taken to a completely new level. Instead of expansions dictating gear inflation, Arena seasons took charge. That changed with the personal rating system, but I know several raid-specific players in my guild that did Arenas just for the vastly superior weapons.
This has trickled down now as a fresh level 70 is so far behind the power curve that it is a joke to even consider them level 70. It is an absolute shame that when you hit 70, with a little work, you upgrade into gear that is 3-4x more powerful than what you leveled with.
I don't fault Blizzard too much though, because I enjoy being able to get some insane gear as a casual player. It makes PvE a breeze and makes leveling an alt more attractive than pre-TBC.
The one thing I do know about MMORPG players is that they do QUIT when their characters stop progressing. I don't know any players, hardcore or casual, that play an MMO when their character is sitting static. Right now, it is pretty tough to have a static character in WoW. Casuals have a mountain in front of them to climb. Hardcore players can come back every six months for the new uber dungeon. Most importantly, the "core" gamer that makes up the majority of WoW, has more content than they will ever get around to; from Kara to Heroics to PvP epics to new Badge gear to dailies.
TBC had some great zone designs, great dungeon designs, but a lot of it gets ignored for the far easier, repeat-until-your-fingers-bleed content.
I am much more a fan of "do this HARDER task ONE TIME and get your REWARD" instead of the "do this EASY task a MILLION TIMES and get your reward". Yes, as a PvP casual player, it pains me to say that.
The Arena gear was mudflation taken to a completely new level. Instead of expansions dictating gear inflation, Arena seasons took charge. That changed with the personal rating system, but I know several raid-specific players in my guild that did Arenas just for the vastly superior weapons.
This has trickled down now as a fresh level 70 is so far behind the power curve that it is a joke to even consider them level 70. It is an absolute shame that when you hit 70, with a little work, you upgrade into gear that is 3-4x more powerful than what you leveled with.
I don't fault Blizzard too much though, because I enjoy being able to get some insane gear as a casual player. It makes PvE a breeze and makes leveling an alt more attractive than pre-TBC.
The one thing I do know about MMORPG players is that they do QUIT when their characters stop progressing. I don't know any players, hardcore or casual, that play an MMO when their character is sitting static. Right now, it is pretty tough to have a static character in WoW. Casuals have a mountain in front of them to climb. Hardcore players can come back every six months for the new uber dungeon. Most importantly, the "core" gamer that makes up the majority of WoW, has more content than they will ever get around to; from Kara to Heroics to PvP epics to new Badge gear to dailies.
TBC had some great zone designs, great dungeon designs, but a lot of it gets ignored for the far easier, repeat-until-your-fingers-bleed content.
I am much more a fan of "do this HARDER task ONE TIME and get your REWARD" instead of the "do this EASY task a MILLION TIMES and get your reward". Yes, as a PvP casual player, it pains me to say that.
Blizz has thrown fuel on the 'class warfare' fire by allowing PvE access to PvP gear, and not the other way around.
# posted by : 7/4/08 15:47
: 7/4/08 15:47
Its the endgame of what I observed pre BC. Wow is based on time sinks. So you spend weeks and months doing things over and over. The more time you spend on your character the more attached you get to it. but the devs have refused to go back and change up stuff and do more events like the invasion. Instead they keep adding more and more grinds. In fact they've gotten so lazy they don't even try to hide them. They just throw another faction grind another high end raid instance.
What this means is all advancement is associated with frustration. And the frustration builds with varying degrees depending on the player, thier advancement etc. But it builds across the board and the devs have never ever come up with a solution to bleed off that frustration. In fact the mudflation they did with BC just put it in a pressure cooker because we know from now on any content we miss by the next expansion will most likely never be seen.
Thus you have a game of frustrated gamers who are looking for the nuggets of fun in the lOOOOOOONg grinds that are no longer disguised. And in many cases are grinds that only benefit a few specific classes so people have a hard time getting friends to come along and help.
And without some sort of fresh look at things and a change in the way the devs institute content it's just gonna keep getting worse.
What this means is all advancement is associated with frustration. And the frustration builds with varying degrees depending on the player, thier advancement etc. But it builds across the board and the devs have never ever come up with a solution to bleed off that frustration. In fact the mudflation they did with BC just put it in a pressure cooker because we know from now on any content we miss by the next expansion will most likely never be seen.
Thus you have a game of frustrated gamers who are looking for the nuggets of fun in the lOOOOOOONg grinds that are no longer disguised. And in many cases are grinds that only benefit a few specific classes so people have a hard time getting friends to come along and help.
And without some sort of fresh look at things and a change in the way the devs institute content it's just gonna keep getting worse.
@Sam
I am ok with all that you said except the grind disguise, now you have a lot of little (ok not little) grind to do except of one or two huge one (remember the epic tiger mount) :D
Wow is really based on time sink and all these grind can only lead to frustration. The fall after the rush of adrenaline is always hard.
I am ok with all that you said except the grind disguise, now you have a lot of little (ok not little) grind to do except of one or two huge one (remember the epic tiger mount) :D
Wow is really based on time sink and all these grind can only lead to frustration. The fall after the rush of adrenaline is always hard.
# posted by : 7/4/08 16:53
: 7/4/08 16:53
The point is that grind is all they have left. No opening of the AQ gates no invasion no cool quests. Yes some grinds are longer than others. But the grinds themselves cause issues because they have inequal and poorly spread out rewards. Even the 5 mans are part of the problem. You have 5 mans that only one class really wants to go to. You have some that a few classes want to go to. Why isn't the good loot spread out well enough that everyone who is gearing up would want to go.
the new 5 man uses an old boss that already existed. They are just getting lazy and not even trying to add a fun factor to anything they do. The best analogy I can come up with is public schools. Every year they take a little more recess and PE time away from the little kids. Every year the teachers complain its harder and harder to keep them focused and behaving. Thier policy is the problem but it is amazing the number of teachers that never make that connection on thier own because they can't see the forest for the trees.
There is no real stress valve that lets off that frustration that builds from goal after goal being invalidated or jerked out from under your feet because something else better came along, or being the only one of your friends in a specific class that wants to do a grind that will only benefit you.
the new 5 man uses an old boss that already existed. They are just getting lazy and not even trying to add a fun factor to anything they do. The best analogy I can come up with is public schools. Every year they take a little more recess and PE time away from the little kids. Every year the teachers complain its harder and harder to keep them focused and behaving. Thier policy is the problem but it is amazing the number of teachers that never make that connection on thier own because they can't see the forest for the trees.
There is no real stress valve that lets off that frustration that builds from goal after goal being invalidated or jerked out from under your feet because something else better came along, or being the only one of your friends in a specific class that wants to do a grind that will only benefit you.
Look up the guild PVE is easy on the Tichondrius (US) server, or read about them on worldofming. The next step in the "war" between the PVP and PVE crowd was just fired by them. Top tier PVPers who formed a guild just to prove that the hardcore raiders made too big a deal out of what they do. They then proceeded to smack Hyjal down in week 1 and all of Black Temple in week 2.
Maybe some players need to start a "If you're bored, quit for a few weeks" fad, or something along those lines. (Of course, blizzard people may not like it, but it might help some other people who have stuck around for much longer than is good for them.)
another exemple of how lazy blibli becomes is probably the daily quests... instead of doing a lot of quest they now give us some more daily to make sure you do these every day...
The last time i left was because i discovered the quest in nagrand and tought : "damn remind me something, oh i already made that at level 30 !!!" Copy/paste content, just rename tiger by talbuk.
Yeah they are lazy, yeah it still works so why should they change........
they just spead a little of pve, pvp, and a lot of purple for the purple addicts.
The last time i left was because i discovered the quest in nagrand and tought : "damn remind me something, oh i already made that at level 30 !!!" Copy/paste content, just rename tiger by talbuk.
Yeah they are lazy, yeah it still works so why should they change........
they just spead a little of pve, pvp, and a lot of purple for the purple addicts.
# posted by : 7/4/08 21:36
: 7/4/08 21:36
The "class warfare" exists because content development is a zero sum game. Blizzard has limited time with which to make content, and their solution is to try and bribe people into using content that those players would otherwise avoid. The resulting compromises aren't satisfying to anyone.
For example, take the new badge rewards. Players who have actually cleared the Black Temple are annoyed that lower end players can get comparable loot. At the same time, non-raiders face massive price tags for even the lowest end "heroic" loot (the daily quests allow a player to acquire an average of half a badge per day, and new items have price tags as high as 150 badges), which are necessary in order to prevent more dedicated players from cherry picking top quality loot. The obvious solution would have been to target the new badge items at the players who actually needed a new form of progression. For example, the new vendors could have distributed ilvl 130 blue items (solid upgrades for non-raiders, but safely below all but the lowest of raid items) with the same prices, but paid in badges guaranteed to drop from EVERY daily quest (instead of at a 10% drop rate from a mere five quests). Problem is, this content would have been irrelevant to raiders who had advanced past it. And so we get a system where raiders are forced to raid old content for badges while non-raiders cannot afford the supposedly casual rewards.
Likewise, 95% of complaints about PVP can be traced back to players who hate PVP queuing up for rewards and then discovering that they hate PVP (or ruining the experience of the few who PVP for its own sake through their incompetence).
The solution is to develop content faster. But Blizzard appears unwilling or unable to do this. Which may be forgivable anyway if they get their expansion out in a reasonable amount of time (e.g. end of summer). But if the expansion doesn't launch until the end of the year (or worse 2009), or if it ships on time but players are out of content again three months later, things could get very ugly in Irvine.
For example, take the new badge rewards. Players who have actually cleared the Black Temple are annoyed that lower end players can get comparable loot. At the same time, non-raiders face massive price tags for even the lowest end "heroic" loot (the daily quests allow a player to acquire an average of half a badge per day, and new items have price tags as high as 150 badges), which are necessary in order to prevent more dedicated players from cherry picking top quality loot. The obvious solution would have been to target the new badge items at the players who actually needed a new form of progression. For example, the new vendors could have distributed ilvl 130 blue items (solid upgrades for non-raiders, but safely below all but the lowest of raid items) with the same prices, but paid in badges guaranteed to drop from EVERY daily quest (instead of at a 10% drop rate from a mere five quests). Problem is, this content would have been irrelevant to raiders who had advanced past it. And so we get a system where raiders are forced to raid old content for badges while non-raiders cannot afford the supposedly casual rewards.
Likewise, 95% of complaints about PVP can be traced back to players who hate PVP queuing up for rewards and then discovering that they hate PVP (or ruining the experience of the few who PVP for its own sake through their incompetence).
The solution is to develop content faster. But Blizzard appears unwilling or unable to do this. Which may be forgivable anyway if they get their expansion out in a reasonable amount of time (e.g. end of summer). But if the expansion doesn't launch until the end of the year (or worse 2009), or if it ships on time but players are out of content again three months later, things could get very ugly in Irvine.
At the end of the day, Blizzard has been able to design a near-perfect game. Of course, the design is to get people to keep playing WoW, regardless of their class, gear, or preference for PvE or PvP.
Think about it, a lot of people will keep running Karazhan for badges, so they can get better gear...so they can run Hyjal/BT and get better gear...
So they can get better gear?
Its an achievement, and people are attached to their little avatars. Somehow, Blizzard has convinced players of WoW that if your gear isn't epic quality, you have some work to do.
Then, once you get that purple gear, Blizzard introduces better gear, and off you go, running raid instances you've ran 100 times, to get that gear.
And of course, level cap is raised, and its all for nothing. Again, you're wearing scrub gear, and its time to ashamedly wear clown gear while you strive for the new level cap...to get some epics. Well,starter epics anyway. You'll be replacing your starter epics soon enough.
I think Blizzard stumbled on a way to get people to become de facto addicted to a video game. Because lets face it, if you play WoW, you are a gamer.
Gamers want to "complete" games, and the most complete you can get in WoW is to be geared out with maximum stats.
Yet Blizzard never lets any of us actually reach the point of our gear being beyond reproach by someone.
Raiders call PvP gear "welfare" because they didn't spend 60+ hours in an attempt to get it to drop, and then have the right to loot it.
PvPers like me make fun of PvE gear, since its basically trash outside of an instance.
Class warfare?
I'd say that Blizzard has divided and conquered WoW players. Hell, now even PvE'ers have ANOTHER set of gear to get. All they have to do is run some more raid instances and BGs...
Just long enough until the expansion comes out and makes all their gear worthless...
Again.
Think about it, a lot of people will keep running Karazhan for badges, so they can get better gear...so they can run Hyjal/BT and get better gear...
So they can get better gear?
Its an achievement, and people are attached to their little avatars. Somehow, Blizzard has convinced players of WoW that if your gear isn't epic quality, you have some work to do.
Then, once you get that purple gear, Blizzard introduces better gear, and off you go, running raid instances you've ran 100 times, to get that gear.
And of course, level cap is raised, and its all for nothing. Again, you're wearing scrub gear, and its time to ashamedly wear clown gear while you strive for the new level cap...to get some epics. Well,starter epics anyway. You'll be replacing your starter epics soon enough.
I think Blizzard stumbled on a way to get people to become de facto addicted to a video game. Because lets face it, if you play WoW, you are a gamer.
Gamers want to "complete" games, and the most complete you can get in WoW is to be geared out with maximum stats.
Yet Blizzard never lets any of us actually reach the point of our gear being beyond reproach by someone.
Raiders call PvP gear "welfare" because they didn't spend 60+ hours in an attempt to get it to drop, and then have the right to loot it.
PvPers like me make fun of PvE gear, since its basically trash outside of an instance.
Class warfare?
I'd say that Blizzard has divided and conquered WoW players. Hell, now even PvE'ers have ANOTHER set of gear to get. All they have to do is run some more raid instances and BGs...
Just long enough until the expansion comes out and makes all their gear worthless...
Again.
The warfare is 90% caused by PvP. Just read the threads: "I can't win every fight, it can't be me, so my class must be underpowered, it's unfair..."
Part of this is Blizzard's "rock, paper scissors" approach to balance. Whilst that's a perfectly fair way of doing things, it breeds hatred. As one poster ironically put it in his sig: "I'm rock. Scissors are fine, but nerf paper".
Whilst I can understand the short term commercial reasons for including PvP in the game, in the long term I think it will destroy WOW as a PvE game. The trouble is, PvEers have nowhere else to go; the more PvE focussed games out there just aren't very good; all the competition right now is for the PvP market.
The only solution I can think of is different rules for PvE and PvP servers, effectively forking the game. I doubt Blizzard will do that, though.
Part of this is Blizzard's "rock, paper scissors" approach to balance. Whilst that's a perfectly fair way of doing things, it breeds hatred. As one poster ironically put it in his sig: "I'm rock. Scissors are fine, but nerf paper".
Whilst I can understand the short term commercial reasons for including PvP in the game, in the long term I think it will destroy WOW as a PvE game. The trouble is, PvEers have nowhere else to go; the more PvE focussed games out there just aren't very good; all the competition right now is for the PvP market.
The only solution I can think of is different rules for PvE and PvP servers, effectively forking the game. I doubt Blizzard will do that, though.
# posted by : 8/4/08 08:58
: 8/4/08 08:58
"That raiding isn't in any way "superior" to other modes of gameplay."
What do you mean by "superior", Tobold?
If by "superior" means that raiding is intrinsically better than everything else you can do in the game, then you are right.
On the other hand, if by "superior" you mean that raiding does not require a lot of organization, good players that know their classes and other classes as well, coordination, team spirit and, yes, more time, then you are wrong.
Where you are undoubtedly wrong is when you say:
"In the perception of the general population raiders moved from being the guys in the awesome gear everyone wanted to have to just people who played the game in a different way, grace to having more available time."
If this means what i think i kind of resent it. I have a good, demanding job, i am married and i still find the time to do 2-3 three hour raid a week. My guild started Kara in December and we are currently bringing down Vashj and Kael. Most of us are over 25, married with families, some with kids. We raid between 23:00 and 02:00. We like to raid and we like to raid with each other. If that means getting less sleep a few days out of a month, so be it. But at least it beats QQ here or on the forums and claiming that people you don't know don't have a life.
(for what is worth, hardcore raiders also claim that the top guild members don't have personal lives as well :D )
What do you mean by "superior", Tobold?
If by "superior" means that raiding is intrinsically better than everything else you can do in the game, then you are right.
On the other hand, if by "superior" you mean that raiding does not require a lot of organization, good players that know their classes and other classes as well, coordination, team spirit and, yes, more time, then you are wrong.
Where you are undoubtedly wrong is when you say:
"In the perception of the general population raiders moved from being the guys in the awesome gear everyone wanted to have to just people who played the game in a different way, grace to having more available time."
If this means what i think i kind of resent it. I have a good, demanding job, i am married and i still find the time to do 2-3 three hour raid a week. My guild started Kara in December and we are currently bringing down Vashj and Kael. Most of us are over 25, married with families, some with kids. We raid between 23:00 and 02:00. We like to raid and we like to raid with each other. If that means getting less sleep a few days out of a month, so be it. But at least it beats QQ here or on the forums and claiming that people you don't know don't have a life.
(for what is worth, hardcore raiders also claim that the top guild members don't have personal lives as well :D )
man if you are married and do anything else in your life and manage to raid till 2am more than 2 nights a week and are actually sitting there saying anyone else can do this, then you have officially joined the class wars on the side of the raiders.
For most people that is just too much time. I'm glad you can run on 4 to 6 hours sleep a day. I need my 8 to 9. But just because you have very few obligations and either ignore your wife or are lucky enough to raid with her doesn't mean everyone else or even a high percentage of the population can do the same.
And maybe we aren't talking about you but most people i know getting bent out of shape and resenting this kind of argument don't stay up a few nights a week. They do it 4 to 6 nights a week. I've had some insanely stupid conversations with people trying to recruit me into thier guilds confused that I thought 4 nights a week of raiding was hardcore. Because they'd just stepped down from 6 nights a week, that was hardcore and 4 nights a week was just casual.
One of the earlier posts nailed the problem though. PVP............ The intensity of the argument ratcheted up and became worse with PVP and the gas on the fire of mudflation has turned it into a bonfire.
For most people that is just too much time. I'm glad you can run on 4 to 6 hours sleep a day. I need my 8 to 9. But just because you have very few obligations and either ignore your wife or are lucky enough to raid with her doesn't mean everyone else or even a high percentage of the population can do the same.
And maybe we aren't talking about you but most people i know getting bent out of shape and resenting this kind of argument don't stay up a few nights a week. They do it 4 to 6 nights a week. I've had some insanely stupid conversations with people trying to recruit me into thier guilds confused that I thought 4 nights a week of raiding was hardcore. Because they'd just stepped down from 6 nights a week, that was hardcore and 4 nights a week was just casual.
One of the earlier posts nailed the problem though. PVP............ The intensity of the argument ratcheted up and became worse with PVP and the gas on the fire of mudflation has turned it into a bonfire.
I'd say that Blizzard has divided and conquered WoW players. Hell, now even PvE'ers have ANOTHER set of gear to get. All they have to do is run some more raid instances and BGs...
Just long enough until the expansion comes out and makes all their gear worthless...
Again.
I honestly don't mean this to be insulting, but you mention only the PVE'rs getting on the treadmill and starting over again. Do you honestly think that they won't put PVP'ers in that same hole? It'll never happen. Before TBC, resilience as a stat didn't exist. Now trying to PVP without resilience is foolishness. At the end of the day, what is resilience though? Just a made up stat to attempt to balance PVP gear away from PVE gear. It will take no effort at all for them to invent yet a new stat that is "necessary" on PVP gear which will instantly make old PVP gear all but useless.
Everybody will be starting over, not just PVE'ers.
Just long enough until the expansion comes out and makes all their gear worthless...
Again.
I honestly don't mean this to be insulting, but you mention only the PVE'rs getting on the treadmill and starting over again. Do you honestly think that they won't put PVP'ers in that same hole? It'll never happen. Before TBC, resilience as a stat didn't exist. Now trying to PVP without resilience is foolishness. At the end of the day, what is resilience though? Just a made up stat to attempt to balance PVP gear away from PVE gear. It will take no effort at all for them to invent yet a new stat that is "necessary" on PVP gear which will instantly make old PVP gear all but useless.
Everybody will be starting over, not just PVE'ers.
I think the common thread in this discussion is that thier design isn't good enough for the amount of time they want to go between expansions so they keep coming up with lazy solutions that force rather than encourage people to rerun the old content.
People got excited about the halloween content it was cool. New bosses new loot. No one gets excited about more places to spend your badge gear. They'll spend em but its not new and exciting.
Blizzard has lowered thier bar so much that average and mundane are thier new benchmarks for content.
But with no competition I expect no change.
People got excited about the halloween content it was cool. New bosses new loot. No one gets excited about more places to spend your badge gear. They'll spend em but its not new and exciting.
Blizzard has lowered thier bar so much that average and mundane are thier new benchmarks for content.
But with no competition I expect no change.
After reading the replies here, it seems apparent to me that Blizzard shot itself in the foot by making the goal of end game content only to upgrade gear instead of offering an alternate experience gaining path as well.
For example Everquest 1 had AA (Alternate Advancement) points after you reached the level cap. Which basically was an experience bar that every time it filled up would give you 1 AA point that you could spend toward special stats or skills, etc.
The benefit of the AA points is that people still had motivation to go places that did not necessary drop gear upgrades for them because they reasoned that they would at least still get experience they could apply toward AA advancement.
(Like one of the previous commenters has said:) One of the problems of end game 5-mans/10-mans is some classes have no motivation to go to instances if they either already have their upgrades or know they can't get any upgrades from there.
Players need incentives other than just better loot.
Seeing new content is an incentive but once that has been done and if they deem the upgrades provided by the content trvial on the eve of an expansion, there will also be little motivation to "farm" the place.
For example Everquest 1 had AA (Alternate Advancement) points after you reached the level cap. Which basically was an experience bar that every time it filled up would give you 1 AA point that you could spend toward special stats or skills, etc.
The benefit of the AA points is that people still had motivation to go places that did not necessary drop gear upgrades for them because they reasoned that they would at least still get experience they could apply toward AA advancement.
(Like one of the previous commenters has said:) One of the problems of end game 5-mans/10-mans is some classes have no motivation to go to instances if they either already have their upgrades or know they can't get any upgrades from there.
Players need incentives other than just better loot.
Seeing new content is an incentive but once that has been done and if they deem the upgrades provided by the content trvial on the eve of an expansion, there will also be little motivation to "farm" the place.
# posted by : 9/4/08 16:50
: 9/4/08 16:50
well loot would work if they updated old loot when they mudflated everything. If all the 60 instances had thier loot retuned to be on par with 60 blues and greens then people would use them as leveling content. Even MC, ZG and AQ20 would be worth doing if the loot were retuned. You'd get some stuff that would last you 65 or so.
But they want to mudflate everything and still expect a new person to come in and learn the game even though they've invalidated 2/3rds of thier game. It's really pathetic.
But they want to mudflate everything and still expect a new person to come in and learn the game even though they've invalidated 2/3rds of thier game. It's really pathetic.
My MC epics got replaced at Hellfire, but Netherwind lasted all the way up to 70. Our server actually has some nostalgia raids for fresh 60ies, backed by level 70ies in T6. So if you know people, it's possible to get some T1-3 for leveling.
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