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Friday, July 25, 2008
Copying features - good or bad?
Any feature in a modern MMORPG has a long pedigree, often dating back a decade ago to Everquest and Ultima Online, or even earlier to MUDs and Dungeon & Dragons. That makes the discussion of whether WAR copied features from WoW or the other way round pretty much futile. In Wrath of the Lich King new features are going to be added to World of Warcraft: siege warfare PvP and an achievement system for example. As chances are high that WotLK and WAR will be released around the same time, some people suspect that Blizzard is trying to preempt a possible success of WAR by nicking some of its features. But of course the achievement system could as easily have been copied from Lord of the Rings Online. Who knows? Who is copying whom isn't important. But what is evident is that we are moving towards a situation where the feature lists of all major MMORPGs will look pretty much alike. Now is that a good thing or a bad thing?
As I mentioned before, I don't think that feature lists are all that important. The implementation, and how the features interact with each other are far more vital. For example siege warfare in WoW is going to be strictly localized to one single PvP zone, just a fun diversion. In WAR keeps are far more essential to the RvR gameplay, as they give bonuses to zone control, and thus ultimately the sacking of the enemy capital. In Age of Conan siege warfare is mainly used to crash your computer. ;)
So for me it is always interesting how the various games implement the same feature. Player housing for example was a very different beast in Ultima Online than it is in Everquest 2, which again is much different from player housing in Lord of the Rings Online. I would actually *want* Blizzard to copy that feature, just to see their version of it. If a new game comes out with a feature that is fun, why should everyone be forced to play that game to enjoy that feature. Maybe the new game is otherwise not so great, and you'd rather have that shiny new feature in your old favorite game. Even if innovation is conceived at one point, we're all better off if the best features turn into industry standards. That doesn't turn all games into identical clones, because their basic structure and focus is often different. I'm looking forward to the WoW achievement system, even if it isn't a new idea.
- posted by Tobold @ 7:00 AM Permanent Link
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Copying features is good, although like you said ... it's not having a feature that's great, it's the care and effort put into the implementation that makes it great.
Blizzard is really great at taking common ideas and making fantastic yet simple implementations of them.
Still, WoW is a great game, but the problem is that it's the wrong game. It's still a game where (like you said) siege engines and PvP are going to be relegated to one zone while the end-game is still going to be PvE raiding.
I don't think that WAR will have quite the same quality and polish as WoW, especially considering they have had like 40% of the development time, and probably less of a budget for that 40%. But I think they're making something much closer to the right game.
Blizzard is really great at taking common ideas and making fantastic yet simple implementations of them.
Still, WoW is a great game, but the problem is that it's the wrong game. It's still a game where (like you said) siege engines and PvP are going to be relegated to one zone while the end-game is still going to be PvE raiding.
I don't think that WAR will have quite the same quality and polish as WoW, especially considering they have had like 40% of the development time, and probably less of a budget for that 40%. But I think they're making something much closer to the right game.
WoW achievement system - Cookies for doing stuff ya supposed to be doing or done already. I hope this isn't indicative of the Bliz innovation machine.
Ya Gawds... Whatever next?
Ya Gawds... Whatever next?
If I have 2 hands and feet 2, this does not mean that other people "bad copy". The invention of the bike is always bad.
# posted by 
: 25/7/08 14:51
: 25/7/08 14:51
WoW achievement system - Cookies for doing stuff ya supposed to be doing or done already. I hope this isn't indicative of the Bliz innovation machine.
how many times does it have to be said. Blizzard has never done innovation. They take other peoples ideas and polish them. Even thier random dungeons in Diablo had already been done in earlier Dos PC games.
how many times does it have to be said. Blizzard has never done innovation. They take other peoples ideas and polish them. Even thier random dungeons in Diablo had already been done in earlier Dos PC games.
Blizzard has never done innovation. They take other peoples ideas and polish them.
I respectfully disagree, Sam. Polish, in the form of evolution, is most certainly innovation. If you take an idea and improve upon that idea – that’s innovative. Sometimes innovation leads to dramatic evolution. In most cases, however, it’s a much slower process. It often takes a company that perfects the ideas of someone else in order to see the industry as a whole take a step forward. This is particularly true when we are talking about games within the same GENRE where games build upon the ideas of other games. If you step too far outside the genre, then you create something *new* and while that is certainly very innovative – it is no longer really part of the original genre and may or may not appeal to the players in that genre.
I respectfully disagree, Sam. Polish, in the form of evolution, is most certainly innovation. If you take an idea and improve upon that idea – that’s innovative. Sometimes innovation leads to dramatic evolution. In most cases, however, it’s a much slower process. It often takes a company that perfects the ideas of someone else in order to see the industry as a whole take a step forward. This is particularly true when we are talking about games within the same GENRE where games build upon the ideas of other games. If you step too far outside the genre, then you create something *new* and while that is certainly very innovative – it is no longer really part of the original genre and may or may not appeal to the players in that genre.
I think its also possible for a game to have too many features, making it very complex and overwhelming for the new player.
"Blizzard has never done innovation. They take other peoples ideas and polish them."
Isn't Blizzard doing a dungeon called the Occulus where you do half of it flying on dragons? Also if my memory serves me right I think you can choose from different types that can heal or do damage. Anyways, it sounded like a new idea.
Isn't Blizzard doing a dungeon called the Occulus where you do half of it flying on dragons? Also if my memory serves me right I think you can choose from different types that can heal or do damage. Anyways, it sounded like a new idea.
Innovation is only good when it's better than what has come before it. In the rest of the cases, copying is not only acceptable, it only makes sense.
There's a reason we use the phrase "re-invent the wheel" to describe an unnecessary waste of time. I wish, for example, that the makers of the GTA cames would just copy the control scheme from Mercenaries (which itself was a GTA clone). If you can't do it better, take the best idea you've seen. You have the entire rest of your game to be original.
There's a reason we use the phrase "re-invent the wheel" to describe an unnecessary waste of time. I wish, for example, that the makers of the GTA cames would just copy the control scheme from Mercenaries (which itself was a GTA clone). If you can't do it better, take the best idea you've seen. You have the entire rest of your game to be original.
# posted by : 25/7/08 21:24
: 25/7/08 21:24
Isn't Blizzard doing a dungeon called the Occulus where you do half of it flying on dragons? Also if my memory serves me right I think you can choose from different types that can heal or do damage. Anyways, it sounded like a new idea.
The innovative part please?
Good ideas and fun do not equal innovation. Innovation is new never been done before.
And blizzard has never had an idea that was truly thier own.
But to thier credit they borrow other ideas and polish them into very pretty and usually fun games
The innovative part please?
Good ideas and fun do not equal innovation. Innovation is new never been done before.
And blizzard has never had an idea that was truly thier own.
But to thier credit they borrow other ideas and polish them into very pretty and usually fun games
Sid that is the most innane thing you've ever said here. and usually you don't do that.
Polish is not innovation. Never will be. Polish is what you do to fine tune and make it look good. Polish is not the idea, it's not the content it by it's very definition is just the pretty stuff.
And if the game industry has fallen so low they are considering polish to be innovative we are all looking at a very long drought of sameness
Polish is not innovation. Never will be. Polish is what you do to fine tune and make it look good. Polish is not the idea, it's not the content it by it's very definition is just the pretty stuff.
And if the game industry has fallen so low they are considering polish to be innovative we are all looking at a very long drought of sameness
in·no·va·tion Audio Help /ˌɪnəˈveɪʃən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[in-uh-vey-shuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. something new or different introduced: numerous innovations in the high-school curriculum.
2. the act of innovating; introduction of new things or methods.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
ev·o·lu·tion Audio Help /ˌɛvəˈluʃən or, especially Brit., ˌivə-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ev-uh-loo-shuhn or, especially Brit., ee-vuh-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. any process of formation or growth; development: the evolution of a language; the evolution of the airplane.
4. a process of gradual, peaceful, progressive change or development, as in social or economic structure or institutions.
Note innovation is something new. Evolution is something that gradually occurs. Evolution may slowly show new things.
Innovation is something brand new never seen before.
Certainly innovative features can be part of the evolution of a game. But again I stand by my statement that blizzard has never ever put any innovative idea that was truly thier own in a game.
And I've played just about everything blizzard has made. I enjoyed most of them.
Don't hate blizzard just don't think they have ever been innovative. p
–noun 1. something new or different introduced: numerous innovations in the high-school curriculum.
2. the act of innovating; introduction of new things or methods.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
ev·o·lu·tion Audio Help /ˌɛvəˈluʃən or, especially Brit., ˌivə-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ev-uh-loo-shuhn or, especially Brit., ee-vuh-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. any process of formation or growth; development: the evolution of a language; the evolution of the airplane.
4. a process of gradual, peaceful, progressive change or development, as in social or economic structure or institutions.
Note innovation is something new. Evolution is something that gradually occurs. Evolution may slowly show new things.
Innovation is something brand new never seen before.
Certainly innovative features can be part of the evolution of a game. But again I stand by my statement that blizzard has never ever put any innovative idea that was truly thier own in a game.
And I've played just about everything blizzard has made. I enjoyed most of them.
Don't hate blizzard just don't think they have ever been innovative. p
Innovation: something new or different introduced
Evolution: gradual, peaceful, progressive change
Change: the process of becoming different
Evolution is the gradual, peaceful, progressive process to becoming different. Innovation is simply the fact that it something is new or different. So as I pointed out, evolution in game design is most certainly innovation albeit gradual and progressive change rather than dramatic sweeping change. Sweeping changes lead to entirely new genres, not just entirely new games. There is nothing wrong with that, but saying that WoW didn’t innovate because they simply “polished” someone else’s ideas is simply not true. This whole debate is pretty nitpicky, but it’s relevant in the sense that the topic is usually brought up in the context that Blizzard never added anything new.
Evolution: gradual, peaceful, progressive change
Change: the process of becoming different
Evolution is the gradual, peaceful, progressive process to becoming different. Innovation is simply the fact that it something is new or different. So as I pointed out, evolution in game design is most certainly innovation albeit gradual and progressive change rather than dramatic sweeping change. Sweeping changes lead to entirely new genres, not just entirely new games. There is nothing wrong with that, but saying that WoW didn’t innovate because they simply “polished” someone else’s ideas is simply not true. This whole debate is pretty nitpicky, but it’s relevant in the sense that the topic is usually brought up in the context that Blizzard never added anything new.
The achievements craze was made popular by Xbox Live.
Copying features is good only if you are improving them. When I log into a game and immediately see features from the MMO Handbook, such as ! and ? over NPCs heads, or the white/green/blue/purple loot categories, it feels like the developers aren't even trying.
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Copying features is good only if you are improving them. When I log into a game and immediately see features from the MMO Handbook, such as ! and ? over NPCs heads, or the white/green/blue/purple loot categories, it feels like the developers aren't even trying.
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