Tobold's Blog
Monday, August 25, 2008
 
A n00b tests WAR RvR

As any of my long-time readers know, I'm not a big fan of PvP in general. But I was very much interested in how PvP is integrated with PvE in Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning. So during the preview weekend I did a combination of both, to see how that worked out. I was doing this with a freshly rolled Archmage, because I want to play a Shaman in release, and Archmage is the exact mirror image in spells and class mechanics. Fortunately it turned out that Keen's judgement that shamans were "squishy" wasn't true, at least not as long as you targeted yourself as defensive target and got constantly healed by the various life drain abilities. Of course the Warrior Priest / Disciple of Khaine is more damage resistent, but then those make worse healers, because they can't keep up a constant stream of heals.

So I rolled my Archmage, did a handful of starting quests, and at level 4 I meet the first quest giver who wants to send me PvPing. I'm supposed to do a scenario, which is the same as a WoW battleground. Do, that is see it through until completion, not win. Now that is brilliant! In WoW there are far too many people leaving battlegrounds if they see they can't win. In WAR it is in your interest to stay until the end for the quest reward. And the quest is even repeatable! So I spend the next hour or so doing the same scenario several times. If I had wanted more variety, I could have flown to the starting area of the other races. As far as I can see there is a different scenario for every tier of every race combination, or 12 in total, twice as much as WoW has.

More nice surprises as soon as the scenario starts. The moment I move away from the spawn point my level is automatically adjusted to 8. Which means I still have the same sucky gear and selection of spells as a level 4 character, but my health and stats increased to that of a level 8, and I don't have the WoW problem that my spells are resisted by my enemies because they are of higher level. This means that while in WoW you can only realistically do battlegrounds at level 19, 29, etc., in WAR you can do scenarios at any level. You'll be better at the max level the scenario allows, but not outrageously so. Of course healers and spell casters suffer less from having less good gear than melee types would.

One huge advantage of WAR scenarios is that the less populous side has an automatic advantage: In the scenario both sides have equal numbers, and just like in WoW battlegrounds the less numerous side has shorter waiting queues. As soon as there enough player of the lesser side in the queue, the scenario starts, leaving the surplus people of the more numerous side waiting without an opponent to fight.

Later I try open world RvR in the designated RvR zones. But there Destruction can bring their superior numbers to bear over Order, and if there is any PvP action at all, Destruction wins. But that then leads to Order not entering the RvR zones any more, and Destruction getting bored alone in there and leaving too. So I did manage to tag some battlefield objectives in a small 3-man group, just by virtue of nobody else being around. The battlefield objectives and keeps are guarded by NPCs, so you can't solo them, but a small group is enough for the small objectives, only keeps need a larger group. MMORPG players are notorious sufferers from attention deficit disorder, and nobody takes the time to defend, especially since all the rewards are in attacking. So during the preview weekend the elf tier 1 RvR zone changed hands often, without much actual PvP taking place. Big group of one side rolls in, tags all the objectives, gets bored, and leaves, only for another group from the other side to turn up 15 minutes later and tag all the objectives back. Trying battlefield RvR solo doesn't get you anywhere, you need at least to join an open group to achieve anything. I did like the feature that the location of the latest PvP battles is marked on the map, so its easy to find where the action is.

So with me testing all this PvP, the rewards come rolling in. The first thing to get used to is that PvP kills and taking objectives gives PvE experience as well. You could theoretically level up your PvE level by doing PvP all day, although I had the impression that it wasn't the fastest method. In parallel to the regular xp, you get renown points, which level up your renown rank, aka PvP level. Every renown rank gives you one point to buy permanent stat increases with at the renown trainer. And of course increasing your stats is helpful for both PvP and PvE, so getting your renown rank up is helpful even for PvE fans like me.

The second type of reward for PvP is access to the PvP gear vendors. In the first warcamp you'll find merchants selling all sorts of weapons and armor which is often better than what you got from quest rewards (but not better than the public quests rewards). But to buy that you not only need money, but also have a minimum level in both PvE and PvP. Keeping your PvP level to at least half of what your PvE level is should get you access to everything. A good way to fill gaps in your equipment.

That worked well for my Archmage at renown ranks 2 and 4, but then stopped being all that great at renown rank 6. You see, the vendors for renown rank 6 and 8 gear are on the second floor of the keeps in the tier 2 RvR zones. And as these aren't quite as easy to tag as the tier 1 objectives, Destruction was in control of all keeps all Saturday. I ended up rolling a Destruction char and running to the keep just to verify what the vendors there had on offer. You better be in a guild big and organized enough to take a keep if you want to access the renown gear on the Order side. On Sunday I checked again, and luckily the tier 2 keep in the Chaos / Empire pairing now was Order controlled. I went there and bought my renown gear, and found about 20 Order players in the keep, with a similar number of Destruction players outside, trying to take the keep. So I participated in that keep battle, and it was a lot of fun! Both sides can bring various siege engines into play, which you can buy for 20 silver and install at specific points. For example as keep defender I had the choice of burning oil, a ballista, or a hellblaster. Burning oil was very effective, but limited to the immediate area in front of the door. The hellblaster was easiest to use, shooting several enemies if they stood close to each other, but for not so much damage. The ballista was best against single targets, but difficult to use if those targets were moving. I ended up with renown rank 8 there, but the renown gear for that also needed PvE level 14, which I didn't have at the time.

All in all the various forms of PvP were quite fun at times, frustrating at other times. Because you get nice stat and gear rewards for PvP, it is well worth doing, and helpful for PvE later. The system is cleverly done so that neither pure PvP nor pure PvE gives maximum rewards, but you're best served by doing a variety of different things, which is ultimately most fun anyway. The WAR RvR is far, far superior to the PvP in WoW or AoC, with more options, more balance, more motivation to do it in a varied way. Balance isn't perfect, and probably can't be in a level-based, gear-based, stat-based game. But you are able to contribute in a meaningful way and have fun at regardless which level. That is already pretty good in my book. I don't think it'll reach the holy grail of "impact PvP" some fans were dreaming of, but that is an impossible ideal for a MMORPG. We get persistent worlds, but all conquest is just temporary. I can live with that.
Comments:
"This means that while in WoW you can only realistically do battlegrounds at level 19, 29, etc."

Sorry to say but you are mistaken. Wow pvp follow the same rules. Eg: if you are lvl 10 and fight a lvl 19 player, your skills are maxed to lvl 19. No such thing as missing or getting everythin resisted. Skill points only works in PVE.
 
I felt the same way. I was actually looking forward to playing RvR, just because I wouldn't be stuck with my Holy Priest/forced to level to stand a change in pvp. I think to get the best experience I'll have to join a guild that can put out sizable Warbands for RvR, in order to get the first experience.

(And I think that I'm going to be ignoring the Warrior Priest. RvR is just too hectic with my testing.)
 
What I did was look on the larger world map to see where the alliance had a keep. Lucky, on Red Eye Mountain server, Order had Ostland's keep.

I ran on over, bought my RvR gear, and got to participate in a really amazing massive battle, as Order pulled out all the stops to defend the keep from Chaos. There must have been 100 people there, with siege weapons booming and huge swarms of red names everywhere. It was an absolute blast, and that's coming from someone who really doesn't like PvP at all in WoW. PvP healing in WAR is a lot of fun!

Anyways, it's nice to see at least a little persistence creeping back into games like this. The Order / Chaos imbalance looks like it's going to be a problem though. It'll be interesting to see what Mythic can do about that, if anything.
 
The first anonymous commenter might be right about spell resists, but there is a massive difference between a level 21 and a level 29 in Wow PvP. MASSIVE! Health, Mana, gear, talent trees. Just watch lowbies get mown down in lower level BG's. And it's not just twinks doing the mowing.
 
re: Anonymous #1

In WAR, spells also increase in potency as you gain levels. Being able to cast your spells as a level 18 in a Scenario when you're only level 10 makes a pretty big difference in the size of the heals and damage that you do. WoW doesn't work that way :)
 
@Anon 1:

actually, that is not at all how spell resist and weapon skill checks work in WoW. The spell resist table for PvP is *less harsh* than it is in PvE. Take a look at this table:

http://www.wowwiki.com/Spell_hit

So in your theoretical example, if you are a level 10 in a 10-19 WSG and attack a level 19 character, you have an unmodified 38% chance to hit with that spell. Have fun.

For weapon skill, in PvP your weapon skill is always considered to be the maximum value attainable for *your level*. This has implications for how often your attacks will miss or be dodged/parried by players, although not as severe as that for spells. (Players cannot have crushes or glacing blows vs. other players, so this helps level be less noticable for PvPing meleers.)
 
Anon #1

Have you ever been in a WSG at 10 and fought vs a 19?

A level 10 will have far few HP (probably less than half, if the 10 and the 19 are the same class), fewer skills (and not just a couple) less mana and weapons that don't hit nearly as hard.

The bottom half of a bracket you are filler. Starting at x5 (15, 25, etc) you can have some effect. X6 is better with another level of skills. x8 and x9 are the real meat of the PVP levels. x8 you have the same skills as anyone in your bracket.

Yes, I have sheeped 60 at 16. That doesn't make it any fun.
 
The one good thing is you get points for fighting, and nothing extra for losing but extra for winning. So that's a lot better than WoW which gave you rewards for losing, thus building in an incentive to lose as fast as possible. In WAR you need to fight.

Though points for fighting does mean you're not earning points for playing D. However, since you don't get anything for losing then you play D. I've seen way more people defend nodes in WAR than in WoW, though maybe that's cause of the type of players in beta and will change at release.

The second improvement is WAR bgs all have timers! yes! Even the Pheonix Gate which is sort of like Capture the Flag (honestly I had no idea what was going on when i was there) has a timer. Imagine how much better WSG with a timer would be.

Though you still have morons fighting and not capping. So some things never change. :)

I too was dissapointed in the world RVR in that no one was participating and it was just a pve exercise most of the time. I hope that does not remain the same after golive and is just a quirk of the preview and also Mythic not turning on their realm balancing queues.
 
Reknown being given to healers for healing is pure genius. In most of the open field and scenarios that I ran healers were running around COMPETING to heal people up first.

I also ran out to the Tier 2 keeps but mine were both Destruction controlled as well and neither was under attack.
 
Biggest problem with the Tier 1 scenarios is the level 10 and 11 characters that can get the RR6 gear out of a tier 2 zone. That makes them overpowered in the scenarios.

Mythic should simply increase the level requirement to 12 (the first level for tier 2).

Nothing will piss a new player off more than getting destroyed in their first scenario by a RR6 geared level 10 or 11.
 
Tobold, unless its changed, the number of scenarios is even better than that. T1 has only 1 scenario per pairing, but as you move up in Tiers the number of scenarios per tier is supposed to increase.

@heartless_, yeah, they should bump that tier of gear to Rank 12 required. There are a LOT of people playing the T1 scenarios at level 2-4, and being bumped to level 8 means nothing against RR6 players wearing that gear. They might as well be in full pvp epics in WoW for all the good a starting player can do against them.
 
This is stupid. If you want to PvP with a level 18 player, get to level 18.
 
The scenario count I've seen from CB testers is actually 30+. 2 scenarios per pairing in T3, and 6 scenarios in T4 (only 2 of which are available at any time depending on the war front.) That's definitely better than WoW's 4 BGs, but it's already hard to get a match outside of EVC.
 
This is stupid. If you want to PvP with a level 18 player, get to level 18.

A very typical WoW philosphy of "grinding out levels" until you are able to participate. The absolutely refreshing thing about WAR is that the "grind" is not a huge focus.

Excerpt from my blog today:"You get XP for quests. You get XP for player kills. You get XP for winning or completing an RvR scenario (like a battleground). You get XP for each stage of a Public Quest. You get XP for unlocking achievements in the Tome of Knowledge. You get XP for rising in Renown rank. You pretty much get XP for doing just about anything while playing.

However, this doesn't make for faster leveling – it just helps take the grind out of it. It’s brilliant in its simplicity because I don’t feel compelled to do anything that I don’t want to do. Since everything I do provides XP, all I need to worry about is doing whatever it is that I feel is the most fun at that particular moment.

This, more than anything else WAR offers, makes the game design vastly superior to Warcraft. In WoW, you constantly feel compelled to do things that are unfun in order to get a reward. In WAR, anything you choose to do provides a reward, so you simply gravitate towards the things you find the most fun rather than the most rewarding."
(Serial Ganker)
 
For people who have played guild wars a lot, how do the various scenarios, keep battles, RvR areas, etc. compare to things like fort Aspenwood, Jade quarry, alliance battles, etc.? (these seem to be the closest reference points for how PvP in warhammer seems to work.)
 
Hey Tobold,

I noticed the exact same thing. My RvR experience consisted of a small warband taking the battlefield objectives with the grand opposition of two order players. I think it'll get better at release when they implement the realm population caps though.

Check out my thoughts here:

http://firesofwar.wordpress.com
 
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