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Thursday, August 07, 2008
What is class balance?
A MMORPG is more than just one game, it is a collection of several similar but different games: solo and group, PvE and PvP. And I am growing more and more unsatisfied with a system which "balances" classes by making them strong in one of these games and weak in another. Problem is that not all of these sub-games are optional. You can't skip solo PvE in a game like World of Warcraft, because it isn't designed to allow leveling by PvP, and you simply can't find a group all the time to level up. So classes like tanks and healers that are "balanced" by making them must-have in groups and worst possible in solo PvE suffer inevitably. DPS classes might have a more difficult time to get an invite into a group, but not all of them even want to group; or they are quite content to only get an invite to one raid per week, while participation is mandatory for every raid for the tanks and healers.
The makers of Warhammer Online explained a while ago that every race will have a tank, a healer/support class, a melee dps, and a ranged dps class. With 6 races that originally made 24 classes, but 4 of them have been cut and won't be in the release on September 18. Nevertheless the basic philosophy appears to be exactly the same as in World of Warcraft. The tank will deal less damage as the melee dps class, and the healer's damage spell will be less powerful than that of the range dps class. And I wonder how that will be balanced. I have a sneaking suspicion that we won't have 25% tanks, 25% healers, and 50% damage dealers, but that 60% to 80% of players will prefer playing a dps class. After all, WAR is a PvP (sorry, RvR) game, and in PvP tanking is significantly less useful than in lets say raiding. And healing in PvP is nice to get, but ultimately optional for the receiver (because of quick respawns), and a death sentence for the healer. Who wants to be always the first to die?
I think that there should be no such thing as a dps class. Every single class in a MMORPG should have exactly the same damage output, only by different ways and means. And then everybody should have some added functionality: damage mitigation, healing, stealthing, whatever. Every class should be exactly the same speed in leveling up in solo PvE, and bring something different to group combat and PvP. I'm sick and tired of having to gimp myself in solo PvE just because I like to play in groups, and thus often choose group support classes. That isn't class balance at all.
- posted by Tobold @ 8:05 AM Permanent Link
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i never understood why people can't do class-balance. it's a simple matter of calculus. you have X parameters like "defence", "attack", "weapon-dmg" etc. and a couple of classes. so you have Y functions with X parameters.
to balance it you have to solve the riddle. granted, it's not grammar-school math, but still.
and i agree with the same damage part. how silly it may look, but an ice-mage have basically the same damage as a melee-dude. you stuck it in a different animation perhaps, but that's about it.
to balance it you have to solve the riddle. granted, it's not grammar-school math, but still.
and i agree with the same damage part. how silly it may look, but an ice-mage have basically the same damage as a melee-dude. you stuck it in a different animation perhaps, but that's about it.
if you use the same damage with added functionalities as you said, then classes with the "important" group functions will be picked, and the same class balance problem will remain, except with the roles reversed... classes with important group functions will be picked over others.
so the problem is not as simple as that - i think the closest thing we got as a solution to the dilemma is the wow system - plus the ability to store 2 or more sets of talents.
but yeah, nobody has a good solution to this dilemma - yet
so the problem is not as simple as that - i think the closest thing we got as a solution to the dilemma is the wow system - plus the ability to store 2 or more sets of talents.
but yeah, nobody has a good solution to this dilemma - yet
I think the whole tank/dps/heal mechanic isn't very good to begin with. For one thing, it depends on the artificial stupidity of the mobs.
There still needs to be a system where people can gain control of the fight and not let it go to complete chaos, but some other system needs to be invented. I haven't spent much time thinking about it, and off the top of my head the first thing that comes to mind is some sort of a collision system, at least between mobs and players where the passage might be blocked. But then mobs that have ranged attack capabilities should be able to target ranged players over the "tanks" blocking the way. And ranged players a way of surviving the damage, if they get targeted.
I'm not sure how to come up with a system where the AI can intelligently decide which player to target. If there's a healer class, they'll probably be the first choice but that's less than ideal since it makes the healer class both healer and tank at the same time, probably making life even worse for those people.
While I agree there is a problem, I think the overall tank/dps/heal mechanic is as much at fault as the class balances. Maybe the answer is to come up with an interesting game design that can be played with even one class, and then try to add flavour with different classes afterwards.
There still needs to be a system where people can gain control of the fight and not let it go to complete chaos, but some other system needs to be invented. I haven't spent much time thinking about it, and off the top of my head the first thing that comes to mind is some sort of a collision system, at least between mobs and players where the passage might be blocked. But then mobs that have ranged attack capabilities should be able to target ranged players over the "tanks" blocking the way. And ranged players a way of surviving the damage, if they get targeted.
I'm not sure how to come up with a system where the AI can intelligently decide which player to target. If there's a healer class, they'll probably be the first choice but that's less than ideal since it makes the healer class both healer and tank at the same time, probably making life even worse for those people.
While I agree there is a problem, I think the overall tank/dps/heal mechanic is as much at fault as the class balances. Maybe the answer is to come up with an interesting game design that can be played with even one class, and then try to add flavour with different classes afterwards.
# posted by 
: 7/8/08 09:19
: 7/8/08 09:19
One way to address this would be to design classes in such a way that their group roles only became usable when they are in a group. For example, consider a basic game with four classes: warrior, mage, rogue and priest.
We'll call the warrior our baseline case for soloing. In groups, his use of taunts and defensive talents will effectively reduce his DPS, but indirectly boost those of others.
The mage may be able to put out more DPS than the warrior, but is truly a glass cannon, so has to spend a great deal of his mana on roots and magic shields to survive solo, so can only achieve high DPS in a group context. The rogue is similar: to survive solo, he must use a lot of defensive special moves that effectively cut his DPS to that of a warrior. These aren't needed when there's a tank about, so his DPS rises in groups. Finally the priest puts out about the same peak DPS as the warrior, but has to use his (cheap) heals to replace the damage taken in combat, rather than mitigating it via armour. In a group, he is mostly using his heals, which are cheap, so again he becomes a specialist.
Note that none of this is too crazily far from what most MMORPGs do already. For example, WOW already requires mages to spend mana on roots & magic armour, it's just that the cost of these is so low that they end up soloing far faster than tanks. It's not hard to see how such things could be rebalanced along the lines described above. So why don't Blizzard do this? Well one possible explanation is that they want the classes to feel very different in solo play, which is a big part of the game. The approach I described above might be more balanced, but it might also be a bit dull, with solo play for all classes feeling too similar.
We'll call the warrior our baseline case for soloing. In groups, his use of taunts and defensive talents will effectively reduce his DPS, but indirectly boost those of others.
The mage may be able to put out more DPS than the warrior, but is truly a glass cannon, so has to spend a great deal of his mana on roots and magic shields to survive solo, so can only achieve high DPS in a group context. The rogue is similar: to survive solo, he must use a lot of defensive special moves that effectively cut his DPS to that of a warrior. These aren't needed when there's a tank about, so his DPS rises in groups. Finally the priest puts out about the same peak DPS as the warrior, but has to use his (cheap) heals to replace the damage taken in combat, rather than mitigating it via armour. In a group, he is mostly using his heals, which are cheap, so again he becomes a specialist.
Note that none of this is too crazily far from what most MMORPGs do already. For example, WOW already requires mages to spend mana on roots & magic armour, it's just that the cost of these is so low that they end up soloing far faster than tanks. It's not hard to see how such things could be rebalanced along the lines described above. So why don't Blizzard do this? Well one possible explanation is that they want the classes to feel very different in solo play, which is a big part of the game. The approach I described above might be more balanced, but it might also be a bit dull, with solo play for all classes feeling too similar.
Yup, I'm so with you on this. And it's a legacy issue from MUDs (and even from early D&D) which only gave xp for killing things.
Just delete all pure dps classes. Then they can't complain about not getting groups. Problem solved :)
But really, tanking and healing are the most novel roles in MMOs because they don't exist in single player games. It's a shame that players have to feel penalised for picking those roles.
And really sorry to keep linking back but I actually did have a long rant about this earlier this week.
Just delete all pure dps classes. Then they can't complain about not getting groups. Problem solved :)
But really, tanking and healing are the most novel roles in MMOs because they don't exist in single player games. It's a shame that players have to feel penalised for picking those roles.
And really sorry to keep linking back but I actually did have a long rant about this earlier this week.
WAR supposedly has done that better than WoW. Healers and tanks should do good damage and or utility.
Im beginning to think that you have never even played WoW as youre making statements like healers die always first. They dont. :/
Im beginning to think that you have never even played WoW as youre making statements like healers die always first. They dont. :/
# posted by : 7/8/08 10:25
: 7/8/08 10:25
Tobold, i've said it before and i will say it again. You're idea for equal dps across the board has already been done. Blizzard did it with Diablo 2 and obviously they saw something in it that was incompatible with WoW. No offense to you, but i trust them, the multi-million dollar game-developing corporation to have made the correct decision in removing the "massive damage across the board" function.
# posted by : 7/8/08 10:42
: 7/8/08 10:42
I'm reading the Beta diary for Warhammer Online their doing on Gamespy. One of the writers there was part of a Tier 2 keep take where Tanks played one of the most important roles in holding that keep. Namely by blocking the attackers route via collision detection and their superior resilience. With Healers positions out of LOS of the attacking ranged DPS, a shield wall of tanks looks to be a very useful in PvP.
They might not dish out the pain as much as a Bright Wizard, but they certainly do fulfill an important role in RvR - much more so than in WoW PvP where pure dps seems more important.
When the NDA lifts (possibly next week), we might have more anedoctal evidence of this ;)
They might not dish out the pain as much as a Bright Wizard, but they certainly do fulfill an important role in RvR - much more so than in WoW PvP where pure dps seems more important.
When the NDA lifts (possibly next week), we might have more anedoctal evidence of this ;)
Are we still try to balance classes for PvE and PvP? This is so 2000. Get rid of that idea already. This will never ever work, if you have more than one class.
Play Team Fortress 2 where you have all of the basics covered pretty well, for class based and balanced PvP.
Class balance in PvE matured over years in EverQuest. Every class has a purpose, with decent variety to change classes for certain roles, something WoW slowly but surely is approaching too in Wrath. Their concept of one-class-for-one-purpose-only failed miserably, another one that will fail is the idea to create niches for the same core role: e.g. single target tanks, multiple target tanks, magic tanks. 2 years from now you won't see any of this. It does create way more problems than it adds value. Every design that only works if the players are kind to each other will fail. You have to design classes with min-maxers in mind. If your design encourages people to handle co-players like NPCs, change it, change it fast.
Class balance is a reasonable range of classes to fulfill any given role with the same efficieny.
Play Team Fortress 2 where you have all of the basics covered pretty well, for class based and balanced PvP.
Class balance in PvE matured over years in EverQuest. Every class has a purpose, with decent variety to change classes for certain roles, something WoW slowly but surely is approaching too in Wrath. Their concept of one-class-for-one-purpose-only failed miserably, another one that will fail is the idea to create niches for the same core role: e.g. single target tanks, multiple target tanks, magic tanks. 2 years from now you won't see any of this. It does create way more problems than it adds value. Every design that only works if the players are kind to each other will fail. You have to design classes with min-maxers in mind. If your design encourages people to handle co-players like NPCs, change it, change it fast.
Class balance is a reasonable range of classes to fulfill any given role with the same efficieny.
# posted by : 7/8/08 12:18
: 7/8/08 12:18
yep, class balance ruins games. I firmly believe in WoW they have a board and purposely rotate which class will be OP that quarter because you cannot fully balance them.
And yea, being the dps that can never get a group is a pita, likewise being the tank who cannot solo.
And yea, being the dps that can never get a group is a pita, likewise being the tank who cannot solo.
# posted by : 7/8/08 12:38
: 7/8/08 12:38
It's my humble opinion that so much of the disparity between DPS classes and critical group classes (prot warriors, healers) could be addressed simply by allowing some of the defensive stats to serve double duty.
Blizz is trying this out already with the Spellpower change, and some of the new warrior/DK talents like Blade Armor. Being able to provide some kind of transition that turns Armor/Block into an offensive bonus is key. That way you let people gear for the group activities they love, while still letting them solo.
For instance, what if Prot warriors had a talent that read:
Body Slam
Instant Attack
6 yard range
15 sec cooldown
20 Rage
Deals damage equal to 30% of your armor value to your target.
Regarding Spellpower, from what I've heard from the Beta it seems to be working really well at boosting the solo capabilities of healers, and letting some traditional DPS specs (Elemental shamans, Balance Druids) actually do double-duty as healers.
Here's a thought: what if dedicated DPS classes had to SPEC for their group skills, just like the healers and tanks? Can you imagine Polymorph as a talented spell?
Blizz is trying this out already with the Spellpower change, and some of the new warrior/DK talents like Blade Armor. Being able to provide some kind of transition that turns Armor/Block into an offensive bonus is key. That way you let people gear for the group activities they love, while still letting them solo.
For instance, what if Prot warriors had a talent that read:
Body Slam
Instant Attack
6 yard range
15 sec cooldown
20 Rage
Deals damage equal to 30% of your armor value to your target.
Regarding Spellpower, from what I've heard from the Beta it seems to be working really well at boosting the solo capabilities of healers, and letting some traditional DPS specs (Elemental shamans, Balance Druids) actually do double-duty as healers.
Here's a thought: what if dedicated DPS classes had to SPEC for their group skills, just like the healers and tanks? Can you imagine Polymorph as a talented spell?
# posted by : 7/8/08 12:53
: 7/8/08 12:53
Tanks played one of the most important roles in holding that keep. Namely by blocking the attackers route via collision detection and their superior resilience. With Healers positions out of LOS of the attacking ranged DPS, a shield wall of tanks looks to be a very useful in PvP.
Yes, in the specific context of keep defence, tanking through collision detection (instead of by taunting), and healing out of LOS, could be great improvements to how tanks and healers work in PvP. I'm just not sure how much of the WAR PvP will use structures where you can actually do that. In the open field collision detection is of not much use, unless players start training advancing in formation.
If WAR is a step forward for support classes in PvP, WotLK is offering a step back instead: Death Knight's Death Grip ability. Target the enemy healer at range, press a button, and watch him flying into your group, where he'll be masacred before being able to make his back into his lines.
Yes, in the specific context of keep defence, tanking through collision detection (instead of by taunting), and healing out of LOS, could be great improvements to how tanks and healers work in PvP. I'm just not sure how much of the WAR PvP will use structures where you can actually do that. In the open field collision detection is of not much use, unless players start training advancing in formation.
If WAR is a step forward for support classes in PvP, WotLK is offering a step back instead: Death Knight's Death Grip ability. Target the enemy healer at range, press a button, and watch him flying into your group, where he'll be masacred before being able to make his back into his lines.
I'd love to see a MMORPG break the "holy trinity" of Tank/Healer/DPS, but until they do... ranged DPS for me.
# posted by : 7/8/08 13:53
: 7/8/08 13:53
@tobold
I think your view on 'class balance' is coming from your choice in classes. Atleast in WoW I know you have a protection warrior and a holy priest.
These specs are much more difficult to level than their dps counter parts (arms, or fury for the warrior, and shadow for the priest.) There is no need to run this spec while leveling. Perhaps the last 10 levels so you know your role at end game. Atleast in terms of WoW a prot warrior, or a holy priest is not needed until end game. Any of the regular 5 mans can be run using improperly specced tanks/healers. I just ran ZF in full last night with my feral druid healing. I don't even have a seperate set of healing gear yet. I had all of +8 int on all of my gear :P
As far as every class outputting the same DPS....I think that would be rather dull. I would feel no scence of acomplishment collecting proper healing/tanking/dps gear. Also if every class was able to DPS as well, then why can't the DPS classes also tank or heal? This kind of creates a circle where the only solution is to make all classes the same.
Look at what AoC did with healers. They could heal and DPS. I havn't played the game in months, but when I played a healer I noticed two things. One, healing was very boring. Most of my healing was through nuking the enemy with my lance of mitra, and applying HoTs. Two...healers were sickly overpowered in PvP. Giving them equal damage to other classes, and also letting them heal resulted in my priest killing everyone who ever tried to battle me...except higher levels, and even a few times I beat higher levels who tried to gank me.
Again I bring up WoW, I think WoW could use a slight adjustment to increase the DPS of tanks and healers. I think WotLK is going to be addressing this. The "spell power" adjustment seems to making all gear very similar and the result will be that all gear has damage equal to about 50% of healing, as where now damage is about 33% of healing. Also tanks are getting lots of fun tools. Protection paladins can put out some good DPS and have good utility for PvP. Not to sure about warriors. Then there always in the Death Knight for true tank/pvp/dps runners. It' ain't called a hero class for nothing lol.
I think your view on 'class balance' is coming from your choice in classes. Atleast in WoW I know you have a protection warrior and a holy priest.
These specs are much more difficult to level than their dps counter parts (arms, or fury for the warrior, and shadow for the priest.) There is no need to run this spec while leveling. Perhaps the last 10 levels so you know your role at end game. Atleast in terms of WoW a prot warrior, or a holy priest is not needed until end game. Any of the regular 5 mans can be run using improperly specced tanks/healers. I just ran ZF in full last night with my feral druid healing. I don't even have a seperate set of healing gear yet. I had all of +8 int on all of my gear :P
As far as every class outputting the same DPS....I think that would be rather dull. I would feel no scence of acomplishment collecting proper healing/tanking/dps gear. Also if every class was able to DPS as well, then why can't the DPS classes also tank or heal? This kind of creates a circle where the only solution is to make all classes the same.
Look at what AoC did with healers. They could heal and DPS. I havn't played the game in months, but when I played a healer I noticed two things. One, healing was very boring. Most of my healing was through nuking the enemy with my lance of mitra, and applying HoTs. Two...healers were sickly overpowered in PvP. Giving them equal damage to other classes, and also letting them heal resulted in my priest killing everyone who ever tried to battle me...except higher levels, and even a few times I beat higher levels who tried to gank me.
Again I bring up WoW, I think WoW could use a slight adjustment to increase the DPS of tanks and healers. I think WotLK is going to be addressing this. The "spell power" adjustment seems to making all gear very similar and the result will be that all gear has damage equal to about 50% of healing, as where now damage is about 33% of healing. Also tanks are getting lots of fun tools. Protection paladins can put out some good DPS and have good utility for PvP. Not to sure about warriors. Then there always in the Death Knight for true tank/pvp/dps runners. It' ain't called a hero class for nothing lol.
Of course I haven't played it yet, but I read about playing a Shaman in WAR PVP and that as you heal other players you gain buffs to your damage spells. This could be a good approach to making healers useful and allowing them to dish out some damage at the same time. Of course, we don't know if this system will work or not yet.
# posted by : 7/8/08 16:18
: 7/8/08 16:18
I like the shadow priest "form". If they could do all classes like that so some abilities are only available in some form or stances like the warrior. With severe effects from switching stances often, you could balance them easier.
The effects would have to be more drastic than they are now. Like for warrior in defensive stance would have a 20% decrease in dmg dealt and 40% decrease in dmg dealt.
Same with priest. In shadow form can't heal, but not in shadow form can't cast any shadow spells either.
If you switch stances or forms you lose 90% of hp and mana or something.
The effects would have to be more drastic than they are now. Like for warrior in defensive stance would have a 20% decrease in dmg dealt and 40% decrease in dmg dealt.
Same with priest. In shadow form can't heal, but not in shadow form can't cast any shadow spells either.
If you switch stances or forms you lose 90% of hp and mana or something.
# posted by : 7/8/08 17:14
: 7/8/08 17:14
Although I agree with you up to a point, if all classes had the same damage output, just with different window dressing they wouldn't be terribly interesting.
And in a way, that would create its own balance problems. If the plate wearing guy and the stealthy leather wearing guy have the same damage output but the plate wearer takes far less damage, how is that balanced? Since they do the same damage the stealth guy doesn't have superior burst to make up for his lack of defense, and suddenly everyone is playing the big burly plate wearers because they're unbalanced and the best.
Making all classes deal the same damage wouldn't make them balanced.
And in a way, that would create its own balance problems. If the plate wearing guy and the stealthy leather wearing guy have the same damage output but the plate wearer takes far less damage, how is that balanced? Since they do the same damage the stealth guy doesn't have superior burst to make up for his lack of defense, and suddenly everyone is playing the big burly plate wearers because they're unbalanced and the best.
Making all classes deal the same damage wouldn't make them balanced.
# posted by : 7/8/08 17:57
: 7/8/08 17:57
COH employs some things like this, where all classes can have healing abilities through extra traits but certain classes excel at tanking and healing. We may see more games gravitate towards a more flexible system in the future.
Although I generally tend to agree with you Tobold, I would beg to differ here.
I actually like the fact that a raid has to assemble various roles, that have to be specialized (we are of course primarily talking about tank and healers here, but also of DPS classes that can spec for "burst" PVP damage or long term sustained DPS on boss fights).
I think it makes life interesting to combine various complementary skills and roles.
I mainly raid with my Shaman healer, and while I do recognize there is a price to pay (slow solo play, not adapted at all to competitive PVP end game), I prefer having an amazing raid healer and go PVP with my hunter alt when I am in the mood for it rather than play a standardized-DPS class that only differs from another by different "spells".
Balance is a PVP issue only in my mind, and as levelling a 70 character must be around 15 days anyway, I am not sure it is a central issue.
Best regards and many thanks for your well written and thought out blog.
Brohuld
I actually like the fact that a raid has to assemble various roles, that have to be specialized (we are of course primarily talking about tank and healers here, but also of DPS classes that can spec for "burst" PVP damage or long term sustained DPS on boss fights).
I think it makes life interesting to combine various complementary skills and roles.
I mainly raid with my Shaman healer, and while I do recognize there is a price to pay (slow solo play, not adapted at all to competitive PVP end game), I prefer having an amazing raid healer and go PVP with my hunter alt when I am in the mood for it rather than play a standardized-DPS class that only differs from another by different "spells".
Balance is a PVP issue only in my mind, and as levelling a 70 character must be around 15 days anyway, I am not sure it is a central issue.
Best regards and many thanks for your well written and thought out blog.
Brohuld
# posted by : 7/8/08 20:28
: 7/8/08 20:28
since my font is the same as theirs, i might as well not state my opinion.
w/e
w/e
# posted by : 7/8/08 22:49
: 7/8/08 22:49
to comment on
"I think that there should be no such thing as a dps class. Every single class in a MMORPG should have exactly the same damage output"
ROFLOLS, that is absurd! possibly the stupidest thing i have seen on a MMO related blog so far... if every class was equal then that would defeat the purpose of having classes in the first place... classes are there TO make characters differ from one another
"I think that there should be no such thing as a dps class. Every single class in a MMORPG should have exactly the same damage output"
ROFLOLS, that is absurd! possibly the stupidest thing i have seen on a MMO related blog so far... if every class was equal then that would defeat the purpose of having classes in the first place... classes are there TO make characters differ from one another
# posted by : 7/8/08 23:37
: 7/8/08 23:37
@
"""ROFLOLS, that is absurd! possibly the stupidest thing i have seen on a MMO related blog so far... if every class was equal then that would defeat the purpose of having classes in the first place... classes are there TO make characters differ from one another"""
that's an invalid reason
"""ROFLOLS, that is absurd! possibly the stupidest thing i have seen on a MMO related blog so far... if every class was equal then that would defeat the purpose of having classes in the first place... classes are there TO make characters differ from one another"""
that's an invalid reason
# posted by : 7/8/08 23:47
: 7/8/08 23:47
Leveling is the easy part for me - I leveled 1-60 resto druid (I know, I know, but I didn't KNOW better) and then 61-70 resto as well.
I hit fairly 70 fast, before 3 weeks were up. I probably solo'ed half the quests and grouped with friends the other half. There were enough endline quests that require small 2-3 person groups that it was easy to snag a friend for those and then keep them when we moved on to the next area. Or maybe I just developed some great friends during my preTBC raiding and grouping. But I never had a problem finding people I knew that were willing to quest with me. I'd mop up the ones they'd already done on my own time.
I fully expect to stay resto 71-80. I might do a hybrid balance-resto spec that will let me heal dungeons and add some dps on the leveling up process, but I might not. I originally planned to do that on TBC but never hit a plateau where it felt crucial. And that was with all healing gear, no spell damage.
I think prot warriors are in a worse place but healing classes are resilient.
I hit fairly 70 fast, before 3 weeks were up. I probably solo'ed half the quests and grouped with friends the other half. There were enough endline quests that require small 2-3 person groups that it was easy to snag a friend for those and then keep them when we moved on to the next area. Or maybe I just developed some great friends during my preTBC raiding and grouping. But I never had a problem finding people I knew that were willing to quest with me. I'd mop up the ones they'd already done on my own time.
I fully expect to stay resto 71-80. I might do a hybrid balance-resto spec that will let me heal dungeons and add some dps on the leveling up process, but I might not. I originally planned to do that on TBC but never hit a plateau where it felt crucial. And that was with all healing gear, no spell damage.
I think prot warriors are in a worse place but healing classes are resilient.
# posted by : 8/8/08 00:11
: 8/8/08 00:11
What Tobold is touching on here is that it’s impossible to balance classes, so let’s make them all the same. Different variations, but basically the same. I don’t really agree with it, but it’s that natural evolution of trying to balance classes. Just look at the PvP trinkets. At one time, they did specific things for specific classes – then they just decided to make them all do the same thing for balance purposes.
I think developers spend a little too much time on this elusive idea of balance. You’re never going to have perfect balance, so what you should strive for is maximum fun. The problem with Tanks/Healers versus DPS classes has more to do with them not being as fun outside of a group than it does with any sort of balance. So make them more fun in some way. One idea for fixing such a problem would be Henchmen or Mercenaries. Unable to get a group for questing with your Tank or Healer? No problem, just hire yourself a DPS henchmen that acts as your pet.
I think developers spend a little too much time on this elusive idea of balance. You’re never going to have perfect balance, so what you should strive for is maximum fun. The problem with Tanks/Healers versus DPS classes has more to do with them not being as fun outside of a group than it does with any sort of balance. So make them more fun in some way. One idea for fixing such a problem would be Henchmen or Mercenaries. Unable to get a group for questing with your Tank or Healer? No problem, just hire yourself a DPS henchmen that acts as your pet.
I think the big picture problem of balance is that these chars all interact in the same environments however the different environments call for different types of balance.
From what I understand, most of these posts are talking about pvp balance. Pvp balance is actually very simple and easy to structure. The problem is WoW has pve and pvp chars that excell for different reasons. A metaphor for this would be a group of string intrument players (pve) trying to participate in a marching band (pvp).
There is a whole different layer of designed complications a pve player faces that will never mean anything in pvp , group composition, and timing. In pvp it is quite a bit more cut and dry as the focus is about winning the encounter, but should be building and reacting to the challenge. This is hardly possible on a game like WOW as you cant change talents on the fly, either stats or gear (some exceptions).
Imagine skill talents you could change out of combat, and how much more interesting a fight would be. Since WoW is soo inheredtly Stat based, the actual character lvl scales beyond lvl 70 quite easily based on gear. What if there were only generic gear or easily obtained top tier gear, and what made it different were simply looks, and flashy non-pve/pvp bonuses like glows, sound effects and titles. The game delved too quickly into a grind beyond lvl 70, to get better gear and progressed that it really strings out the playerbased into a funnel straight to the toilet of moneysink. The game accomidated too heavily on what players werent asking for (bottlenecks, gear checks, time constraints).
~Ten
From what I understand, most of these posts are talking about pvp balance. Pvp balance is actually very simple and easy to structure. The problem is WoW has pve and pvp chars that excell for different reasons. A metaphor for this would be a group of string intrument players (pve) trying to participate in a marching band (pvp).
There is a whole different layer of designed complications a pve player faces that will never mean anything in pvp , group composition, and timing. In pvp it is quite a bit more cut and dry as the focus is about winning the encounter, but should be building and reacting to the challenge. This is hardly possible on a game like WOW as you cant change talents on the fly, either stats or gear (some exceptions).
Imagine skill talents you could change out of combat, and how much more interesting a fight would be. Since WoW is soo inheredtly Stat based, the actual character lvl scales beyond lvl 70 quite easily based on gear. What if there were only generic gear or easily obtained top tier gear, and what made it different were simply looks, and flashy non-pve/pvp bonuses like glows, sound effects and titles. The game delved too quickly into a grind beyond lvl 70, to get better gear and progressed that it really strings out the playerbased into a funnel straight to the toilet of moneysink. The game accomidated too heavily on what players werent asking for (bottlenecks, gear checks, time constraints).
~Ten
# posted by : 8/8/08 02:49
: 8/8/08 02:49
Lord of the Rings Online has an interesting solution to the problem of healers being terrible to solo with: the healer class (minstrels) has a toggle power which makes them worse at healing, but better and DPSing. (It can be disabled, but not enabled, while in combat.) Thus their primary role in a group is preserved while still allowing them to solo fairly well. It also allows a group that has a couple of healers to have one set to "DPS mode" as needed.
# posted by : 8/8/08 04:00
: 8/8/08 04:00
Solution: get rid of classes altogether and let players distribute their skills, talents etc according to how they want to play. Then no one can complain because they all start from an open slate.
We are all stuck in a wow box.
We are all stuck in a wow box.
What I find a bit mystifying here is why everyone seems so opposed to re-speccing? In the WoW context, it seems like that is the easy solution to this entire problem. Want to PvE as a Warrior? You can be any of the three spec's and still raid. Want to PvP? You can be two of the three and I am not sure why there should have to be any PvP viability for Prot. I further contend that this is true for every class. There is at least one spec that is appropriate for raids as well as at least one that is appropriate for PvP.
It could be objected that there is a gold cost to be paid for each re-spec, and that this presents a hardship for people that like to do both PvP and PvE. But this is disingenuous. It is fairly easy to accumulate gold these days (and again, my comments are limited to WoW), so the real cost of re-speccing is negligible.
It could be further objected that this means that one has to accumulate more gear, as itemization for different specs can be quite different. Again, I do not see this as a real problem. It will certainly take extra time to accumulate the gear necessary to have a competitive set for multiple specs, but that is to be expected in my opinion.
Taekwandean of US-Silvermoon
It could be objected that there is a gold cost to be paid for each re-spec, and that this presents a hardship for people that like to do both PvP and PvE. But this is disingenuous. It is fairly easy to accumulate gold these days (and again, my comments are limited to WoW), so the real cost of re-speccing is negligible.
It could be further objected that this means that one has to accumulate more gear, as itemization for different specs can be quite different. Again, I do not see this as a real problem. It will certainly take extra time to accumulate the gear necessary to have a competitive set for multiple specs, but that is to be expected in my opinion.
Taekwandean of US-Silvermoon
# posted by : 13/8/08 00:25
: 13/8/08 00:25
hmmm if all the classes are exactly the same or have similar viability in all situations doesn't that kill a huge part of what made wow appealing in the first place.
Why spend time leveling another character if that's the case.
I am of the opinion if you want all classes to be the same have a game with one class.
the point of diversity is having differences. I don't see any way for them to be the same and be different. And if they are all the same I'm not interested
Why spend time leveling another character if that's the case.
I am of the opinion if you want all classes to be the same have a game with one class.
the point of diversity is having differences. I don't see any way for them to be the same and be different. And if they are all the same I'm not interested
Having the same viability is not the same as being identical. Having different classes, some of which are simply not viable, is not really giving the players a choice, because they'll all go for the viable ones. Two classes can have the same damage output and still be very, very different, like a mage and a rogue in WoW for example.
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