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Tuesday, September 02, 2008
The state of LotRO
That pipeweed must be powerful stuff, because other than what he was smoking I can't find a good explanation for Turbine's Jeffrey Steefel claiming that Lord of the Rings Online will be the next big thing in mass-market MMO successes. Thanks, Jaxom, for alerting me to that article.
I agree with him that there are several steps of success for a MMO, step 1 being to make a viable game, and step 2 being getting enough subscribers to be profitable. And I'm sure LotRO got to that step. But step 3, market dominance, seems to be totally out of reach for LotRO. Even with the Mines of Moria expansion and The Hobbit movie.
Of course it is hard to say how successful exactly LotRO really is, Turbine doesn't release any sales or subscription numbers. Even if we had subscription numbers, they wouldn't tell us much, because they include lifetime subscriptions. Hey, I'm a LotRO subscriber, I just haven't played the game for like forever. I don't regret that lifetime subscription, because it gives me more options what to play at any given moment. But I can't say that LotRO grabbed me like WoW or WAR did.
I should check out the current state of LotRO. When I played it, it was great until the mid-20's, and then got a bit boring. Not quite as extreme a drop as Age of Conan, which after level 20 just becomes a completely different game, but still a noticeable drop in quality. But with lots of content patches that should have become better by now. Only I don't have the time to play LotRO. The second half of 2008 is stuffed with new game releases, and many of them interest me far more than LotRO or the Mines of Moria. And as I don't have subscription numbers and can only "measure" the MMO blog buzz about LotRO, I must say that I think I'm not the only one with that attitude. The Mines of Moria will just get buried under WAR and WotLK.
Steefel says that better marketing or bringing out a console version could catapult LotRO to the top. Well, he sure could use some better marketing, but I don't think he'll even reach Warhammer's numbers just with that. As for a console version, there are too many people talking about bringing MMOs to the console, and too few successes. Final Fantasy XI is on the console, and it's still just one of many "stage 2" (profitable but not dominating) games out there. It isn't even totally clear whether the MMO gameplay and business model would be such a big hit on consoles. Most MMORPGs are far too complicated to be easily controlled with a gamepad. I can imagine a console version of Wizard101, but not of WoW, WAR, or LotRO.
LotRO is a nice enough game, and well worth checking out if you have nothing else to do. But you need to smoke a lot of pipeweed before you think it could one day become a "WoW killer". It's more likely to remain forever an "also ran". Which, as long as it is profitable, isn't actually all that bad.
- posted by Tobold @ 10:00 AM Permanent Link
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The biggest problem with LotrO is it could do with a larger more varied game world, sort of ironic considering the have one of the most well know fantasy worlds to deal with. It starts off so well with the Shire, but Breeland, Lone Lands and North Downs all feel far too similar, and a bit bland. I recently returned to the game, and I am really trying to get through the twenties to see if things pick up after that. Ultimately, I cannot imagine it being anywhere near as mainstream as WoW.
Well I'm not going to defend Jeffrey Steefel. He isn't too popular amongst LotRO players at the moment due to the Moria expansion introducing the first 'true' magic class, something which stretches Tolkien's lore well beyond breaking point.
Essentially, it's his job to shift more copies of the game, and if he can do that by making fairly outlandish claims about hitting mass market subscription numbers, or introducing popular class types that don't necessary 'fit', he'll do it.
However, he isn't too far off the mark when he talks about the current state of LotRO. It really is a great game for casual MMORPG players. With player housing, player music, a robust cosmetic system, engaging story driven questing, the staggering depth of Tolkien's legendarium fully realised, and more fluff than you can shake a magic staff at, it is arguably the best MMORPG out there for casual players.
The regular updates during the past year have absolutely banished the levelling problems evident at launch, and there is now a nice variety of end-game options to keep new players busy for several months. Sure, if you want a ton of end game instances and raids, WoW's your game, and WAR seems to have nailed RvR and group based PvP, but LotRO really will become harder and harder to ignore for the quality of its PvE content.
And regarding subscription numbers, a recent server wide event demonstrated that all of the European servers have a very healthy population, with no server closures or mergers since launch.
So, while it would be grossly optimistic to imagine LotRO hitting anything close to WoW numbers as far as subs go, it is undoubtedly the MMORPG success story of recent years, and with no reason to doubt Turbine's commitment to regular updates and yearly expansions, its future is very bright indeed.
Oh, and the fans tend to be quite loyal :)
Essentially, it's his job to shift more copies of the game, and if he can do that by making fairly outlandish claims about hitting mass market subscription numbers, or introducing popular class types that don't necessary 'fit', he'll do it.
However, he isn't too far off the mark when he talks about the current state of LotRO. It really is a great game for casual MMORPG players. With player housing, player music, a robust cosmetic system, engaging story driven questing, the staggering depth of Tolkien's legendarium fully realised, and more fluff than you can shake a magic staff at, it is arguably the best MMORPG out there for casual players.
The regular updates during the past year have absolutely banished the levelling problems evident at launch, and there is now a nice variety of end-game options to keep new players busy for several months. Sure, if you want a ton of end game instances and raids, WoW's your game, and WAR seems to have nailed RvR and group based PvP, but LotRO really will become harder and harder to ignore for the quality of its PvE content.
And regarding subscription numbers, a recent server wide event demonstrated that all of the European servers have a very healthy population, with no server closures or mergers since launch.
So, while it would be grossly optimistic to imagine LotRO hitting anything close to WoW numbers as far as subs go, it is undoubtedly the MMORPG success story of recent years, and with no reason to doubt Turbine's commitment to regular updates and yearly expansions, its future is very bright indeed.
Oh, and the fans tend to be quite loyal :)
As unwise was also saying I think Lotro's great strength is in the casual friendliness that has stayed throughout the lifetime of the game so far. There is no raid progression ladder like in WoW, for example. You can get equally good armour sets from all manner of different occupations. Crafted armour is as good as the raid armour, or do repeatable quests for another armour set, or help others with quests you've already done and earn marks to buy another armour set etc.
Added with the cosmetic armour, housing etc and Turbine is really trying hard to cater to different kinds of playstyles, for those who can only play half hour here or there etc.
Added with the cosmetic armour, housing etc and Turbine is really trying hard to cater to different kinds of playstyles, for those who can only play half hour here or there etc.
# posted by 
: 2/9/08 13:41
: 2/9/08 13:41
As a retired Lotro player who is now eyeing the soon to be released expansion I wonder how they will deal with the issue of new players and retired players who have fallen behind on the levelling curve.
You can't really "power level" your way through lotro because there is a lot of stuff like deeds and story line missions that you need to complete along the way.
I would be a bit miffed to resubscribe to try out Moria and then discover that I have to finish off a bunch of old stuff before I can get in there.
You can't really "power level" your way through lotro because there is a lot of stuff like deeds and story line missions that you need to complete along the way.
I would be a bit miffed to resubscribe to try out Moria and then discover that I have to finish off a bunch of old stuff before I can get in there.
I really wanted to get into lotro but I found the character movements too stiff-looking and unnatural. I would continually lose immersion.
I think that's one reason why Wow is still so popular -- the animations look fluid even though the graphics are less detailed -- because they got movements right. For example, they incorporated hip and shoulder motions into animations.
I think that's one reason why Wow is still so popular -- the animations look fluid even though the graphics are less detailed -- because they got movements right. For example, they incorporated hip and shoulder motions into animations.
Oddly enough I just started playing LOTRO again. (I betaed it and then didn't pick it up.) I am a little toasty on WoW.
I only hit 24 and am grinding jewelery as a crafting skill (and getting enough silver was indeed a grind).
I find I can't judge LOTRO purely as a MMO, I love the books enough that I am involved with the lore and story on a personal level. I find the game very evocative of the books and--say the Lone Lands do feel empty and dangerous but there are at least 3 different quest hubs in the zone that I have found so far.
The one concern I have is that the Epic quests lines are (more or less) required so that on re-rolls you will at least be seeing that content again. Otherwise it does seem like there is a lot of stuff I am not seeing on this play though.
And, I have to admit, I have wanted to go through the Mines of Moria since the first time I heard of D&D (1979-80) so I will be picking up the expansion.
Er...but I don't see LOTRO blowing the doors off WOW or WAR. But its very nice.
I only hit 24 and am grinding jewelery as a crafting skill (and getting enough silver was indeed a grind).
I find I can't judge LOTRO purely as a MMO, I love the books enough that I am involved with the lore and story on a personal level. I find the game very evocative of the books and--say the Lone Lands do feel empty and dangerous but there are at least 3 different quest hubs in the zone that I have found so far.
The one concern I have is that the Epic quests lines are (more or less) required so that on re-rolls you will at least be seeing that content again. Otherwise it does seem like there is a lot of stuff I am not seeing on this play though.
And, I have to admit, I have wanted to go through the Mines of Moria since the first time I heard of D&D (1979-80) so I will be picking up the expansion.
Er...but I don't see LOTRO blowing the doors off WOW or WAR. But its very nice.
# posted by : 2/9/08 15:55
: 2/9/08 15:55
I hope Steefel's comments will become at least partial reality, but frankly as long as LotRO does well enough to warrant ongoing Turbine development time I'm happy.
I have a lifetime subscription to LotRO and haven't regretted it for a moment. Content in the mid to higher levels was feeling thin at the start, but numerous content patches have dealt with this since.
A major content patch comes out about once every two months and tends to add tangible things.
The emphasis is on storytelling. Raiding and PvP are available, but not a singular focus. It's a refreshing break really. The game is graphically beautiful, including stunning vistas. In some of the instances you overwatch fortifications that stretch as far as the eye can see - up, down, left, right.
what I love is that you can just take a break from LotRO, come back somewhat later and pick it up just like that. The whole experience just feels that much... healthier. It may go a long way to explaining why the community is really quite friendly.
I'm not saying LotRO's perfect, or that it will entertain you 24/7. But it's a game I've consistently felt positive about and which makes for a relaxed playing environment.
This coming from a guy who's cleared all the raiding content in WoW there is and ran away screaming after that, hoping he never has to return to play WotLK. But I know I will do it one day again. And I will burn out horribly again, sitting ill behind my computer from weeks of sleep deprivation. There's no learning curve. But I plan to enjoy my LotRO in the meantime :P
I have a lifetime subscription to LotRO and haven't regretted it for a moment. Content in the mid to higher levels was feeling thin at the start, but numerous content patches have dealt with this since.
A major content patch comes out about once every two months and tends to add tangible things.
The emphasis is on storytelling. Raiding and PvP are available, but not a singular focus. It's a refreshing break really. The game is graphically beautiful, including stunning vistas. In some of the instances you overwatch fortifications that stretch as far as the eye can see - up, down, left, right.
what I love is that you can just take a break from LotRO, come back somewhat later and pick it up just like that. The whole experience just feels that much... healthier. It may go a long way to explaining why the community is really quite friendly.
I'm not saying LotRO's perfect, or that it will entertain you 24/7. But it's a game I've consistently felt positive about and which makes for a relaxed playing environment.
This coming from a guy who's cleared all the raiding content in WoW there is and ran away screaming after that, hoping he never has to return to play WotLK. But I know I will do it one day again. And I will burn out horribly again, sitting ill behind my computer from weeks of sleep deprivation. There's no learning curve. But I plan to enjoy my LotRO in the meantime :P
# posted by : 2/9/08 15:57
: 2/9/08 15:57
I can only put the /sign under unwises and sverals comment. They mirror my experience with LOTRO 100%. This is the perfect game for the burned out casual ex-WoW player. Familiar enough with the mechanics, finally, much, much more slower in its approach to storytelling. The main storyline of TBC is a mere dragon whelpling compared to the ancient dragon that is LOTROs quest depth.
I have started when the game began, first a couple of hours. In the last month, when my WoW interest faded more and more - then only I truly realized what a beauty LOTRO is.
I hope Steefels vision will come to life.
Disclaimer: I never said LOTRO is the perfect game. WoW is close enough but has many designer decisions in the elder game which put me off.
I have started when the game began, first a couple of hours. In the last month, when my WoW interest faded more and more - then only I truly realized what a beauty LOTRO is.
I hope Steefels vision will come to life.
Disclaimer: I never said LOTRO is the perfect game. WoW is close enough but has many designer decisions in the elder game which put me off.
@mbp you just have to buy the expansion to enter the mines. No Book quest requirements. However if you want to fight the watcher at the entrance you may have to be in a book instance where they take him out.
Hey now
This is all true.
LOTRO is a hit, and it could be the next...
SNOOOSH
(OMG, did you see my face crack? I tried not to laugh...then I snorted milk out of my nose...)
signed,
`LOTROs biggest fan!
This is all true.
LOTRO is a hit, and it could be the next...
SNOOOSH
(OMG, did you see my face crack? I tried not to laugh...then I snorted milk out of my nose...)
signed,
`LOTROs biggest fan!
Can anyone tell me whether they fixed the combat lag? That was the gamebreaker for me... I snapped somewhere around boar quest #10 in Lone Lands.
If so, perhaps I will check it out sometime next spring when I'm done with this fall's releases.
If so, perhaps I will check it out sometime next spring when I'm done with this fall's releases.
# posted by : 2/9/08 19:44
: 2/9/08 19:44
I agree with you unwise about the new class (the Runekeeper). Everything I've heard about it doesn't fit into the lore. The Lore Master stretch I was able to buy, but the Runekeeper, not so much. Even the devs and Mr. Steefel have admitted it was put in as a game rather than keeping with lore.
While this isn't enough to make me quit, and I might actually try one out, just to see how they play, I probably just end up ignoring them. Pretending they don't exist. Hehe.
I agree with Tobold about the unlikeliness of LOTRO being as successful as Steefel is saying. Sure, as a player, I *want* it to be, but I'm not deluded enough to see the barriers to that happening.
I guess only time will tell, but 10 million is a far mark to hit. Even second place is a challenge.
While this isn't enough to make me quit, and I might actually try one out, just to see how they play, I probably just end up ignoring them. Pretending they don't exist. Hehe.
I agree with Tobold about the unlikeliness of LOTRO being as successful as Steefel is saying. Sure, as a player, I *want* it to be, but I'm not deluded enough to see the barriers to that happening.
I guess only time will tell, but 10 million is a far mark to hit. Even second place is a challenge.
# posted by : 2/9/08 19:46
: 2/9/08 19:46
@Nissl You need to adjust your combat options and your advanced graphics options. especially "animation smoothness" this one is a real kicker for newbies cuz they expect the game to behave a certain way without tampering. Temper away and you might have more surprises than you think. Turning on frills really make middle earth a lot prettier also.
I actually don't mind the addition of the Rune Keeper all that much. There are so many dubious additions to the game lore-wise already, and I don't think the RK goes any further than those. I think Turbine have struck a nice balance between lore and gameplay, and I expect the RK to carry on that tradition.
Regarding combat fluidity, many people don't realise that the underlying combat dynamics are much different from WoW and WAR. LotRO doesn't have a standard global cooldown. Each ability has a custom cooldown (not to be confused with the skill's recovery time), and this cooldown is further modified by weapon speed. If you're using a slow two-handed weapon ability with a naturally long cooldown, then yes, the combat can feel slow and sluggish. However, try playing a Burglar with dual daggers and you will find that abilities chain and fire much faster, and quicker than WoW or WAR's global cooldown allows in many cases.
Also, LotRO's robust skill queue means you don't have to be constantly smashing keys to get an ability to fire ASAP, like in WoW and WAR. Just push the ability, keep yourself in position, and plan your next ability while the last one is firing/animating. It makes for a much more measured and strategic experience IMO.
Regarding combat fluidity, many people don't realise that the underlying combat dynamics are much different from WoW and WAR. LotRO doesn't have a standard global cooldown. Each ability has a custom cooldown (not to be confused with the skill's recovery time), and this cooldown is further modified by weapon speed. If you're using a slow two-handed weapon ability with a naturally long cooldown, then yes, the combat can feel slow and sluggish. However, try playing a Burglar with dual daggers and you will find that abilities chain and fire much faster, and quicker than WoW or WAR's global cooldown allows in many cases.
Also, LotRO's robust skill queue means you don't have to be constantly smashing keys to get an ability to fire ASAP, like in WoW and WAR. Just push the ability, keep yourself in position, and plan your next ability while the last one is firing/animating. It makes for a much more measured and strategic experience IMO.
I played LOTRO for about five months post-launch, canceled due to lack of high level content, and played it again for the free re-trial weekend at the game's first birthday. It took Turbine approximately a year post-launch to finally finish patching in the last of the level 1-50 content (with a new zone for the 40+ crowd in a content update that just squeaked in under the wire for the anniversary), adding some much needed swift travel options, etc.
I have no doubt that the Moria expansion will eventually be worth paying for and playing. Given their track record, however, I'm going to give it the better part of a year before I spend my time and money on it.
I have no doubt that the Moria expansion will eventually be worth paying for and playing. Given their track record, however, I'm going to give it the better part of a year before I spend my time and money on it.
Lotro is awesome. But when I first tried it, I was still hooked in EQ2. And Lotro couldn't compete with that. It felt more like the same thing just cheaper and in different colours.
I only realized how fantastic Lotro is after EQ2 chased me away with RoK and nothing was left to do in WoW besides leaving my Black Temple guild to move server to join one of those 24/7 "hardcore" guilds.
The mix of solo and group content in Lotro is fantastic and unlike to WoW you really get to enjoy all of it if you choose to, no matter if you only started playing over a year after launch.
I started to really play only about 5 weeks ago and just got to 50. And besides quite a number of technical annoyances concerning UI in general, LFG/LFF-tool, chat channels, storage space, auction house, etc., that often make me think "it's 2008 and I still have to deal with such a useless, cumbersome, unergonomic mess?", I really enjoy the game a lot :)
I only realized how fantastic Lotro is after EQ2 chased me away with RoK and nothing was left to do in WoW besides leaving my Black Temple guild to move server to join one of those 24/7 "hardcore" guilds.
The mix of solo and group content in Lotro is fantastic and unlike to WoW you really get to enjoy all of it if you choose to, no matter if you only started playing over a year after launch.
I started to really play only about 5 weeks ago and just got to 50. And besides quite a number of technical annoyances concerning UI in general, LFG/LFF-tool, chat channels, storage space, auction house, etc., that often make me think "it's 2008 and I still have to deal with such a useless, cumbersome, unergonomic mess?", I really enjoy the game a lot :)
# posted by : 3/9/08 02:14
: 3/9/08 02:14
"The best MMORPG out there for casual players."
Couldn't agree with that more. There are a great many mmorpg players who regard WoW as having an abomination of an end-game - one utterly focused on getting shinier and shinier pixels and to hell with everything else.
LotRO is the way end-games should be for many of us - some raid content that even now is pretty much open to everyone at cap, plus plenty of alternatives and "fluff" to keep the avergae player amused.
Just look at the vile "me me me" mentality of many WoW players and contrast that with LotRO. Reflect on the guild bust-ups/bragging and bitterness hardcore raiding encourages. It's something utterly absent from LoTRo - and long may it stay that way.
The one positive thing about WoW post level 60 (now 70?) is it keeps the worst excesses of online gaming away from the silent majority with jobs, families...and lives!
Whatever else, please do not use WoW as a measuring stick against which to judge the success of other games - it's simple a flawed and naive comparison.
Couldn't agree with that more. There are a great many mmorpg players who regard WoW as having an abomination of an end-game - one utterly focused on getting shinier and shinier pixels and to hell with everything else.
LotRO is the way end-games should be for many of us - some raid content that even now is pretty much open to everyone at cap, plus plenty of alternatives and "fluff" to keep the avergae player amused.
Just look at the vile "me me me" mentality of many WoW players and contrast that with LotRO. Reflect on the guild bust-ups/bragging and bitterness hardcore raiding encourages. It's something utterly absent from LoTRo - and long may it stay that way.
The one positive thing about WoW post level 60 (now 70?) is it keeps the worst excesses of online gaming away from the silent majority with jobs, families...and lives!
Whatever else, please do not use WoW as a measuring stick against which to judge the success of other games - it's simple a flawed and naive comparison.
# posted by : 3/9/08 03:14
: 3/9/08 03:14
The game wasnt dark enough for me to play it. It is too bad considering tolkien rly had some lore to draw from. Soem of the highlights that did interest me to give lotro a whirl eventually are.
~monster play
~lifetime subscription
~casual friendly
If this game would come to ps3, id definatly get it.
~ten
~monster play
~lifetime subscription
~casual friendly
If this game would come to ps3, id definatly get it.
~ten
# posted by : 5/9/08 03:47
: 5/9/08 03:47
>> shawno wrote:
>>
>> I would continually lose immersion.
What the heck does this mean? This sounds like someone losing their erection.
I can understand not liking animations. But to say you "continually lose immersion" strikes me as an attempt at using a buzzword that really fails.
-Cambios
Blogging about Online Gaming and Virtual Worlds:
http://www.muckbeast.com
>>
>> I would continually lose immersion.
What the heck does this mean? This sounds like someone losing their erection.
I can understand not liking animations. But to say you "continually lose immersion" strikes me as an attempt at using a buzzword that really fails.
-Cambios
Blogging about Online Gaming and Virtual Worlds:
http://www.muckbeast.com
>> shawno wrote:
>>
>> I would continually lose immersion.
What the heck does this mean? This sounds like someone losing their erection.
It means I continually notice the quirky animations rather than play the game. When I play other MMOs, my attention is on playing in that world, not thinking to myself how awkward the character movements are. Translation: losing immersion = not enjoying the game.
>>
>> I would continually lose immersion.
What the heck does this mean? This sounds like someone losing their erection.
It means I continually notice the quirky animations rather than play the game. When I play other MMOs, my attention is on playing in that world, not thinking to myself how awkward the character movements are. Translation: losing immersion = not enjoying the game.
@Shawno
That is so true. What about how the Warrior/Melee classes flail around with their weapons also...
They look goofy.
Here is this beautiful world, with lovely landscapes, and people that look like they belong in a Claymation.
Sad.
That is so true. What about how the Warrior/Melee classes flail around with their weapons also...
They look goofy.
Here is this beautiful world, with lovely landscapes, and people that look like they belong in a Claymation.
Sad.
@openedge1
It must be difficult carrying a world's worth of chips on your shoulders ;)
Ok, so we get that you didn't like LotRO, judging by your inability to miss an opportunity to slam it. However, I'd venture that this says more about you than it does about the quality of LotRO.
Just because something doesn't float your boat, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is a bad product for other people with different tastes than your own.
For example. as you are someone that evidently rates AoC more highly than LotRO, not only are we not on the same page when it comes to our quality criteria for an MMO, we are not in the same library.
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It must be difficult carrying a world's worth of chips on your shoulders ;)
Ok, so we get that you didn't like LotRO, judging by your inability to miss an opportunity to slam it. However, I'd venture that this says more about you than it does about the quality of LotRO.
Just because something doesn't float your boat, it doesn't necessarily mean that it is a bad product for other people with different tastes than your own.
For example. as you are someone that evidently rates AoC more highly than LotRO, not only are we not on the same page when it comes to our quality criteria for an MMO, we are not in the same library.
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