Friday, September 26, 2008
WAR Auction House
I first started to get worried about auction houses when I noticed that late in the beta there still weren't any. There were auctioneer NPCs, but clicking on them didn't do anything, just weeks before release. Then last minute the auction house interface got patched in. Now, one week after release, it starts showing its inadequacies. This is not something which has been extensively tested in the beta, and accordingly the WAR auction house interface has serious flaws.
The biggest flaw is a fixed limit of 500 results. Not 500 results per page, then scroll forward. No, 500 results, won't show you the rest. The only way to get past that is to refine search criteria. Which would be nice if they were all implemented and working correctly, but they aren't.
Where the auction house completely fails is for crafting materials. Anyone who studied the WoW auction house a bit knows that crafting materials are traded much more than other items, like equipment. The WAR crafting system actively encourages trading crafting items, because you can have only one gathering skill, but need several different items for crafting. But all crafting items are rank 0, you can't set a filter by that. You can set a filter to only show crafting materials, but you can't search for only apothecary materials, or only fragments for talisman making. And as there are more than 500 crafting materials on the AH, with no way to refine the search by class, a good part of them remains permanently invisible, with the sellers wondering why nobody buys their stuff. Only if you know the name, or part of the name, can you search for something. But as you are unlikely to know the names of all herbs or curios or whatever, your chance of finding things are slim.
For weapons and armor the AH works somewhat better, but still has flaws. That is mostly because items in WAR have a very inconsistent system of restrictions. Half of the items are restricted to a particular class, lets say Black Orc. The other half are restricted by race and type, lets say orc/goblin and heavy armor. Now if you put "Black Orc" as search criteria on the auction house interface, it shows you all items limited for the class Black Orc, filtering out all the items restricted to other classes. But it doesn't filter out items with race and type restrictions, so you will still see items for Chaos or Dark Elf races, although obviously a Black Orc can't use those. So you do a search for your class and rank, and still come up with tons of results you can't use. There is no "useable" filter criterion, showing you only the stuff you could actually wear.
If you actually manage to sell something, you'll have the dubious pleasure of interacting with the mail interface, which isn't much better. Good idea: A separate tab for auction house mail. But I so wish that tab would have a "open all mail, take all items from it, and delete them" button. Instead not only do you have to open each mail one by one, take the attached items or money, and then manually delete the mail. You will also often encounter a strange bug telling you that you haven't read the mail you just took the attachments of, and are you really, really sure you want to delete it? If you put a bunch of stuff on the auction house and sold it, that gets tedious pretty fast. Hint: The bug seems to appear less often if you open your last mail first and work back from the bottom instead down from the top.
In summary the auction house user interface of Warhammer Online is rather bad, even failing to fulfill basic functions like showing everything for sale of a certain type. It clearly has been programmed in a rush, and not properly tested. There are some drop-down fields with only one option, suggesting that there are plans to improve the interface. But as it stands now, the auction house is more annoying than helpful.
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Now why didn't they just copy a working system from an existing MMO? The WoW one, for instan, works pretty well these days. I have no experience with other ones, but if there is one that excels, why not just use thaat as a template?
I doubt the AH is a field where players value originality over functionality.
I doubt the AH is a field where players value originality over functionality.
Coding does not take a trivial amount of time, and it is worth nothing that WOW's AH only got like that after years of refinement.
It's not like Blizzard is doing open source development, either, and Mythic has a lot more pressing issues to resolve than a sub-par AH system.
Better to have just left it out then patch it in later down the line.
It's not like Blizzard is doing open source development, either, and Mythic has a lot more pressing issues to resolve than a sub-par AH system.
Better to have just left it out then patch it in later down the line.
While Mythic could pretty much carbon-copy the Blizzard auction UI, filtering through hundreds of thousands of auctions and thousands of item types is not exactly simple. And premature optimization can cause more problems than it solves if you have no idea of what the most popular use cases are going to be. That 500-result limit sounds like that the developers hadn't done any real load testing and just put in an arbitary limitation to prevent their database from choking.
I have hopes that some day, someone will come up with a gamer friendly implementation of an auction house.
I know devs have fun to implement the wheel over and over again and of course carbon copying will not work from one MMO to another. But it should be possible to get relevant feedback from sane players if you show them different AHs side by side (EQ2, WoW, etc.)
I will never forget the moment I first saw the AH in Lotro. It was a shock. Why on earth did they copy that horrible concept from WoW?
But then I have no clue about the AH in WAR yet...
I know devs have fun to implement the wheel over and over again and of course carbon copying will not work from one MMO to another. But it should be possible to get relevant feedback from sane players if you show them different AHs side by side (EQ2, WoW, etc.)
I will never forget the moment I first saw the AH in Lotro. It was a shock. Why on earth did they copy that horrible concept from WoW?
But then I have no clue about the AH in WAR yet...
The auction house isn't a huge pain to use, the mail on the other hand is horrible, the interface is clunky and lags, just give me a take all items button please. I'd imagine the 20 seconds between mailing is some sort of anti-Gold Farmer/Seller/Spammer idea. People send me cultivations and apothecary mats all the time and as bad as I feel for how long it took them to send it it takes me forever to open each mail, get the item, then delete it. I gave up on deletion however.
The mail bug with the "You haven't read this message" bug is actually worse than that. If you say "Yes" you want to delete it, it deletes the LAST message in your mailbox -- not the message you clicked "Delete" on. I lost several things in the mail before I figured that out.
There are so many "basic features" like this that are not in the game however. Ability to link loot? Clicking the EULA everytime you log in? Click Lag and other frustrations with mail? The list goes on and on.
I really do not understand WHY these basic features have to be sacrificed to get a game out the door. WAR had a great launch and is a wonderful game. It's always sad to think of what it could have been, right out of the chute. Having these things drag your great game down is a rather sad experience.
I really do not understand WHY these basic features have to be sacrificed to get a game out the door. WAR had a great launch and is a wonderful game. It's always sad to think of what it could have been, right out of the chute. Having these things drag your great game down is a rather sad experience.
With all the bugs in this game I'm not worried about an AH or Mail. With that said I think the AH system goes to show the over all "polish" of WAR in gerneral. My views on this game switch on a day to do day basis. I like the game enough to keep playing, and I have this perception that the game will be better, more balance and less buggy come next tier. So far tier 3 and my optimism is going down.
This game has been out of almost two weeks and there hasn't been anyword from Mythic about what bugs they plan to fix in an upcoming patch, or when that patch will come out. I know all MMO's have bugs at start, but WAR has some game breakers and it doesn't seem like they are being fixed.
Class balance also sucks. I know this game isn't based on 1v1, but there are times where you are going to get in 1v1 battle, and melee and healers basically dominate.
This game has been out of almost two weeks and there hasn't been anyword from Mythic about what bugs they plan to fix in an upcoming patch, or when that patch will come out. I know all MMO's have bugs at start, but WAR has some game breakers and it doesn't seem like they are being fixed.
Class balance also sucks. I know this game isn't based on 1v1, but there are times where you are going to get in 1v1 battle, and melee and healers basically dominate.
I haven't really toyed around with the AH yet, because I haven't really needed to. That's the one aspect where WAR is different from WoW. In WoW I was dependent on the AH. In WAR I have yet to need to set foot near it for anything.
BUT, I'm also playing with a good friend of mine. So he has one gathering skill, I have one. Works out pretty well. It's a shame they don't sort it by the level of the trade skill.
BUT, I'm also playing with a good friend of mine. So he has one gathering skill, I have one. Works out pretty well. It's a shame they don't sort it by the level of the trade skill.
Personally, I love EvE's market system, because it's easy to gauge both supply and demand, and the modifiable and anonymous buy/sell orders allow the market as a whole to reach a consensus on a fair price via haggling. Good filters can't hurt, either.
These are exactly my issues with the Auction House system. And thanks for also mentioning that it wasn't properly tested before the game was released. I think they managed to sneak it in during Open Beta, but that uncovered tons of more pressing bugs, so I'm sure the AH stuff fell way down on the priority list.
I was chatting on vent last night with some guildies about a lot of the minor issues that are kind of pissing us off... There's quite a list.
I was chatting on vent last night with some guildies about a lot of the minor issues that are kind of pissing us off... There's quite a list.
Amen. The AH is WAR is terrible and I can't believe they didn't learn from the improvements WOW made.
When you get right down to it, the crafting is terrible imo as well. Take magic salvage aka disenchanting for instance: I've been told I'm not high enough level to DE something, yet when I attempt to DE a lower level item, the item either cannot be salvaged -even though it's green- or that my salvage failed.
It was said in a video that the crafting wouldn't be a grind, but it seems to be the most frustrating experience I have ever encountered. I enjoyed the crafting in vanguard more.
When you get right down to it, the crafting is terrible imo as well. Take magic salvage aka disenchanting for instance: I've been told I'm not high enough level to DE something, yet when I attempt to DE a lower level item, the item either cannot be salvaged -even though it's green- or that my salvage failed.
It was said in a video that the crafting wouldn't be a grind, but it seems to be the most frustrating experience I have ever encountered. I enjoyed the crafting in vanguard more.
As a someone with a background in software development I can sympathize with the choices that have to be made given the limited time, resources and money ( as they say; Fast, Good, Cheep pick two). No one quits because of minor annoyances but they will quit because of major flaws. No one would care if the AH had a rich interface with many working filters if keep sieges didn't work. I'll put up with a clunky mailing system and the occasional ability not firing if the game as a whole is fun. Because the minor things can be fixed, more so if they show that WAR is profitable (i.e. retain players)and thus are able to direct more resources towards it.
This really seems to be an ongoing theme doesn't it?
Broken AH or Exploits abound in most recent releases.
LOTRO had an exploit on launch.
AoC ...exploit on launch...
Tabula Rasa...sucky implementation..
Eventually some game will hopefully get this right...someday.
It is an important feature...even though I have proposed a non-AH system in games...
Gold Sellers love them, and every company messes them up..so, why not just eliminate them, and find an alternate means for people to sell goods.
For example in Guild Wars, they have the vendor system, which watches a sales auction channel, and then prices their goods accordingly.
Say Iron Ingots are going between 100-130 from various "auctioneers" in the sales auction channel.
The system looks at what people are buying the item for, then you can go the vendor and it averages those deals, and gives you the best quote for your ingots.
So, a person may either try to sell on their own, or try the vendor.
May make more overall on your own, or just not deal with it and sell it outright.
Awesome.
For now...the AH system just sucks overall.
Needs a fix.
Broken AH or Exploits abound in most recent releases.
LOTRO had an exploit on launch.
AoC ...exploit on launch...
Tabula Rasa...sucky implementation..
Eventually some game will hopefully get this right...someday.
It is an important feature...even though I have proposed a non-AH system in games...
Gold Sellers love them, and every company messes them up..so, why not just eliminate them, and find an alternate means for people to sell goods.
For example in Guild Wars, they have the vendor system, which watches a sales auction channel, and then prices their goods accordingly.
Say Iron Ingots are going between 100-130 from various "auctioneers" in the sales auction channel.
The system looks at what people are buying the item for, then you can go the vendor and it averages those deals, and gives you the best quote for your ingots.
So, a person may either try to sell on their own, or try the vendor.
May make more overall on your own, or just not deal with it and sell it outright.
Awesome.
For now...the AH system just sucks overall.
Needs a fix.
Tobold,
This sounds like a good opportunity to measure Mythic's ability to patch the game after launch. It's fairly simple, unaffected by class balance or population, and, best of all, it's definitely broken.
This is a good chance for them to cleanly excel or fail. As a potential player that has not yet bought, I'll be watching to see how this is handled.
This sounds like a good opportunity to measure Mythic's ability to patch the game after launch. It's fairly simple, unaffected by class balance or population, and, best of all, it's definitely broken.
This is a good chance for them to cleanly excel or fail. As a potential player that has not yet bought, I'll be watching to see how this is handled.
Just a heads up -- there is an addon that assists with Taking All Mail items and Deleting messages. I still think it's silly we need a 3rd party addon for this, but FYI on a fix.
As for the AH, the main thing I want at the moment is just a tool that remembers the last price I listed an item.
As for the AH, the main thing I want at the moment is just a tool that remembers the last price I listed an item.
It is all part of their master plan to stop gold farmers/spammers. Who's going to buy gold if you can't spend what you have. 8-)
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