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Friday, October 17, 2008
WoW talent builds and identity
As promised I'm packing the more theoretical or philosophical aspects of my thoughts on World of Warcraft talent builds into this separate post. A reader directed me to the blog of a mage friend who is cancelling WoW, giving as one of his reasons the introduction of spec toggling. Quote: "To my mind, specs are an essential part of the "RPG" half of "MMORPG." They help to differentiate characters and define a character's personality." In other words, your talent build defines your virtual identity, and being able to switch quickly between specs destroys that identity.
I understand the idea, but I don't really agree with the sentiment. I'm always in favor of giving options, and let the players decide whether they want to take up or not those options. For example I feel strongly about the identity of my WoW priest as a healer. I tried shadow, and didn't like it at all, because it goes against that feeling of identity, of who that priest is. But I wouldn't ask Blizzard to remove the shadow talent tree from the game, or quit the game in protest because it is in.
In this context it is important to notice that talent builds in World of Warcraft affect different classes differently. If I can dual spec my frost mage into a fire mage, or build any other spec for him to switch to, the identity of my mage as damage dealer will never change. Whatever spec I have on the mage, he will never be the tank or the healer of a group. That is one reason why I said in the previous post that choosing a spec for my mage was easy: It didn't involve a choice of identity. I'd need to be much deeper into roleplaying before it would matter to me whether my mage hits his enemies with fire or with frost. For me, and most other players I'd guess, choosing a mage spec is simply a question of variations of style and efficiency. Maybe one build with more arcane is slightly better for very long fights like those in raids, maybe another build is slightly better for PvP. But however I spec him, the mage will always remain a ranged damage dealer with some crowd control elements. And very few groups or raid groups will kick me out for having "the wrong spec", because there isn't really a wrong one.
For the warrior and priest choosing a talent tree is more difficult, because there is a possibility to change your identity through talent builds. A tank and a fury dps warrior do not play the same role, don't have the same identity. And there is a risk of choosing a "wrong spec", one that excludes you from some part of the game, or seriously gimps you. You *will* meet groups or raid groups who don't invite you because of your talent build if you are a warrior or a priest. "You're a shadow priest? Sorry, but we need a healer." Yesterday there were several people in general chat complaining that they couldn't find a tank for their groups, because so many warriors had succumbed to the lure of Titan's Grip. Now several people tell me that protection warriors and holy priests are now much better for dealing damage after patch 3.0, so there is less of a problem of choosing a spec which is good for groups, but bad when you can't find one. But then of course that opens up questions about the use of the other talent trees. I think we will always remain in a situation where certain specs for these classes are more optimal for certain activities and less optimal for other activities. If Blizzard really introduces the promised spec toggling in a patch next year, classes whose identity is more strongly linked to their talent build will profit from having an easier time when switching from one mode of gameplay to another.
I do have less experience with playing other classes in WoW, but I can only imagine that identity is even more of a problem for more hybrid classes, like druids or paladins. I hear a lot of complaints about overpowered retribution paladins now actually being able to tank, heal, and deal damage at the same time. I have no idea in how far these stories are true, because I don't PvP much in WoW. But I can see the problem of rushing towards an enemy on a PvP battlefield, seeing he is a paladin, and not knowing what identity to expect. Is the guy a tank, a damage dealer, or a healer? My strategy towards him might be different depending on his role. With a druid at least I see what form he has. How much of an identity problem those hybrid classes have depends probably from one player to another. But at least a druid should already have experiencing in switching roles, even mid-fight, so the option of a second talent build won't cause him much of a problem.
Overall I think that introducing spec toggling will be a good thing. It won't solve every conceivable problem, but it will give players more options. And that more options are needed is not a question of identity, but a question of how useful different roles are in the different modes of gameplay. I prefer having a game in which you can do different things, solo and group, PvE and PvP. Being effectively excluded from some parts of the game because you play a class with a strong identity, which is useless for certain activities, is a bad thing. I'd rather have the culture shock of having to live with a different identity when e.g. I'm suddenly a melee dps class in PvP instead of being a tank in group PvE, than to have no useful role in PvP at all, or being forced to pay lots of gold to assume that other identity. As a warrior and priest I can see the advantages of dual specs more clearly than somebody playing mostly a mage can. For my mage the talent switch will be more or less fluff, for my warrior it solves some of his fundamental problems.
- posted by Tobold @ 1:51 PM Permanent Link
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I love the WoW theory of balance: "We can't fix it, give up and give everyone both"
I think talent switching will lead to some inherent problems. For one, you will get all classes rolling 'need' on everything now, as everyone will be all specs at all times. Given how loot-centric WoW is, the drama increase will be rather high.
I think the identity issue can't be brushed off either. I know a lot of dedicated raid healers took pride in specing 'for the good of the raid', it was a badge of honor in a way. It was appreciated, it showed dedication, and it got them into raids over the more hybrid builds. That will be tougher to judge now, and with smaller raids, each spot is that much more important. Again, more drama incoming. Same can be said for warriors who kept a dedicated tank spec over a semi PvE/PvP build.
I think talent switching will lead to some inherent problems. For one, you will get all classes rolling 'need' on everything now, as everyone will be all specs at all times. Given how loot-centric WoW is, the drama increase will be rather high.
I think the identity issue can't be brushed off either. I know a lot of dedicated raid healers took pride in specing 'for the good of the raid', it was a badge of honor in a way. It was appreciated, it showed dedication, and it got them into raids over the more hybrid builds. That will be tougher to judge now, and with smaller raids, each spot is that much more important. Again, more drama incoming. Same can be said for warriors who kept a dedicated tank spec over a semi PvE/PvP build.
# posted by 
: 17/10/08 15:26
: 17/10/08 15:26
"PvP battlefield, seeing he is a paladin, and not knowing what identity to expect. Is the guy a tank, a damage dealer, or a healer?"
Pretty simple here...Shield and sword equals protection 90%, he can't hurt you so don't worry. Shield and glowing mace is holy most of of the time, don't worry he can't hurt you.
Two handed weapon = Ret and he will not only hurt you, but has heals that hit just as big as a holy build. Ret pallys can't really tank though.....however their current state is OP as all hell, and the few nerfs coming arn't going to bring them in line either. I just hope they don't get nerfed too much.
Pretty simple here...Shield and sword equals protection 90%, he can't hurt you so don't worry. Shield and glowing mace is holy most of of the time, don't worry he can't hurt you.
Two handed weapon = Ret and he will not only hurt you, but has heals that hit just as big as a holy build. Ret pallys can't really tank though.....however their current state is OP as all hell, and the few nerfs coming arn't going to bring them in line either. I just hope they don't get nerfed too much.
# posted by : 17/10/08 15:26
: 17/10/08 15:26
Yet Guild Wars has the "Neverending" "Free" respec system.
Every time you enter a town, you have the capability to change on the fly your talents (skills) as you wish.
You can reassign your dual class abilities to match the moment.
Maybe it is the fact that there is no control of what skills you take in WoW that makes spec toggling such a crime to some.
All I know is this is what made Guild Wars more fun, and easier respecs can only equal more challenge...especially PvP.
Sounds like fun to me...
Every time you enter a town, you have the capability to change on the fly your talents (skills) as you wish.
You can reassign your dual class abilities to match the moment.
Maybe it is the fact that there is no control of what skills you take in WoW that makes spec toggling such a crime to some.
All I know is this is what made Guild Wars more fun, and easier respecs can only equal more challenge...especially PvP.
Sounds like fun to me...
Duel-specs....mark my words on this.
Duel-specs will result in the PvP fury warrior quickly switching to protection for a 5-man. This fury warrior will now have the correct talents to tank, but won't have a full set of tanking gear, or the knowlage on how to tank well. This will equal a wipe.
However the protection tanks, that have tanking gear and KNOW how to tank will be really happy they can switch to fury/arms for a BG run.
Duel-specs will result in the PvP fury warrior quickly switching to protection for a 5-man. This fury warrior will now have the correct talents to tank, but won't have a full set of tanking gear, or the knowlage on how to tank well. This will equal a wipe.
However the protection tanks, that have tanking gear and KNOW how to tank will be really happy they can switch to fury/arms for a BG run.
Preston.
They are dumbing down tanking a lot for the expansion. Tanks generate more threat. Less rage starvation. Sunder can hit multiple targets if you get the right glyph etc.
I enjoyed WoW raid tanking on my warrior. I found the meta game of threat vs. mitigation an extremely interesting juggling act. Now they are taking most of that away so that the referenced "DPS" player who has no interest in learning to tank will be able to tank your average 5 man/heroic.
They are dumbing down tanking a lot for the expansion. Tanks generate more threat. Less rage starvation. Sunder can hit multiple targets if you get the right glyph etc.
I enjoyed WoW raid tanking on my warrior. I found the meta game of threat vs. mitigation an extremely interesting juggling act. Now they are taking most of that away so that the referenced "DPS" player who has no interest in learning to tank will be able to tank your average 5 man/heroic.
# posted by : 17/10/08 15:59
: 17/10/08 15:59
Your specc should not determine your role or effectiveness, but you style.
Blizzard learnt this, from BC, but wasn't able to make a 180 degree turnaround with WotLK.
I am pretty shure they will make their new MMO this way.
I, too, have the problem with identity in WoW.
I'm not a big roleplayer, but I *DO* identify myself with my char and I just don't like to have a schizophrenic identity.
Blizzard learnt this, from BC, but wasn't able to make a 180 degree turnaround with WotLK.
I am pretty shure they will make their new MMO this way.
I, too, have the problem with identity in WoW.
I'm not a big roleplayer, but I *DO* identify myself with my char and I just don't like to have a schizophrenic identity.
# posted by : 17/10/08 16:16
: 17/10/08 16:16
I'm opposed to spec switching, although not violently enough to quit. It's another band-aid solution to a design problem. And it's another solution that destroys a little bit of the immersion and depth of the game.
But, hey, more tanks for 5-mans... although I think there are way better solutions to that problem.
But, hey, more tanks for 5-mans... although I think there are way better solutions to that problem.
# posted by : 17/10/08 16:17
: 17/10/08 16:17
If I were still playing, i would like spec switching quite a lot, simply because it would allow me to explore more play options without needing to farm, level up more characters, etc.
If anyone actually LISTENED to the class panel at Blizzcon, the primary reason for the dual-spec feature was to correct an inherent flaw in PVE.
This is a GOOD thing.
I play a restoration druid and I would love to have a balance spec that I could go into when I'm not raiding so that I could farm more efficiently or do my dailies by myself at a quicker pace.
Ghostcrawler also pointed out on the panel about how this will ease the BIGGEST headache in raids. The headache is realizing you have 3 tanks in the raid but only needing 1 or maybe 2 for the next boss. So you have to have people hearth, respec, and summon them back. Or they simply have to sit out for that particular encounter. This took a lot of time and energy and now they are eliminating that.
I applaud Blizzard for this change.
This is a GOOD thing.
I play a restoration druid and I would love to have a balance spec that I could go into when I'm not raiding so that I could farm more efficiently or do my dailies by myself at a quicker pace.
Ghostcrawler also pointed out on the panel about how this will ease the BIGGEST headache in raids. The headache is realizing you have 3 tanks in the raid but only needing 1 or maybe 2 for the next boss. So you have to have people hearth, respec, and summon them back. Or they simply have to sit out for that particular encounter. This took a lot of time and energy and now they are eliminating that.
I applaud Blizzard for this change.
# posted by : 17/10/08 17:01
: 17/10/08 17:01
This is the first time that I have heard about talent switching.
Can anyone point me to more information on it?
I am a druid, and I would love to be able to switch between Balance and Feral.
Can anyone point me to more information on it?
I am a druid, and I would love to be able to switch between Balance and Feral.
There must be some sort of law about how WoW players can find a reason to QQ about anything.
I'm always annoyed with having to respec between PVE & PVP builds. So much so that sometimes I just use an inferior build depending on what my focus is at the time.
I love that they're adding this, and, even more so, I love that this will swap your key mappings automatically also.
I'm always annoyed with having to respec between PVE & PVP builds. So much so that sometimes I just use an inferior build depending on what my focus is at the time.
I love that they're adding this, and, even more so, I love that this will swap your key mappings automatically also.
it will be awesome for any healer. Raid guilds may still ask you to choose one as your main spec for raids, and roll/spend dkp accordingly. (For instance my guild only let you get an offspec if no one needed it for their main spec, I assume guilds will continue to do that).
yeah I specced holy but making the rest of the game absolutely suck because I wanted to heal better in the 20% of the time I was grouped basically ended with me quitting my priest. And I didn't feel like spending 100 gold or more to spec and respec every week, since that would only mean even more grinding.
basically I only think specs like that, even though you can change it with a high cost, are better for single player rpgs where you are building a character. mmos are just not that, at least not anymore. So often game developers put blocks like that in place which have nothing to do with introducing challenge but instead are either about realism or sometimes maybe even because that's the way it's always been done, it just serves to annoy and get in the way of fun rather than enhance the games.
yeah I specced holy but making the rest of the game absolutely suck because I wanted to heal better in the 20% of the time I was grouped basically ended with me quitting my priest. And I didn't feel like spending 100 gold or more to spec and respec every week, since that would only mean even more grinding.
basically I only think specs like that, even though you can change it with a high cost, are better for single player rpgs where you are building a character. mmos are just not that, at least not anymore. So often game developers put blocks like that in place which have nothing to do with introducing challenge but instead are either about realism or sometimes maybe even because that's the way it's always been done, it just serves to annoy and get in the way of fun rather than enhance the games.
I remember back in vanilla WOW when people didn't feel that they had to respec every week. We had ferals and shadow priests healing raids without respeccing and arms warriors tanking raid bosses.
But the game has changed since then. It makes me a bit sad too. But I used to respec my warrior 2-3 times a week (speccing prot if people needed tanks or back to fury if it was my choice) and I appreciate them making it easier ... although I would have preferred not to have to specialise so much too.
But the game has changed since then. It makes me a bit sad too. But I used to respec my warrior 2-3 times a week (speccing prot if people needed tanks or back to fury if it was my choice) and I appreciate them making it easier ... although I would have preferred not to have to specialise so much too.
I think that if identity was so important to someone, and their "spec" determined their identity, they wouldnt switch.
I have always enjoyed paladins more than other classes. Having different specs doesnt affect my view of the class, it just affects my role in a group. A paladin is a warrior who can wear heavy armor who can both fight and heal. Multiple specs just means you can emphasize different things.
I think dual specs for DPS classes won't really matter. You can be DPS or a different kind of DPS. However, for classes that heal or tank, the "utility" spec is not generally the one they enjoy playing the most. Personally, I think being able to tank or heal depending on needs is HUGE for hybrid classes (with the exception of shamans who get to pick heals or DPS).
I have always enjoyed paladins more than other classes. Having different specs doesnt affect my view of the class, it just affects my role in a group. A paladin is a warrior who can wear heavy armor who can both fight and heal. Multiple specs just means you can emphasize different things.
I think dual specs for DPS classes won't really matter. You can be DPS or a different kind of DPS. However, for classes that heal or tank, the "utility" spec is not generally the one they enjoy playing the most. Personally, I think being able to tank or heal depending on needs is HUGE for hybrid classes (with the exception of shamans who get to pick heals or DPS).
Huh. I've always seen my "identity" as the class. Spec is just a variation on a theme, and allows for more choice in how I play the game. I lean heavily to giving players more choices.
Which is to say I agree with openedge1.
Which is to say I agree with openedge1.
Basically this feature will make character development in WoW even more meaningless.
You choose between melee, range or healer and that's it.
Oh, and there's also the extra ability based on the chosen skin (racial).
Good job Blizzard, you did to games the same thing that Macdonald's did to restaurants.
Mediocrity is indeed profitable.
You choose between melee, range or healer and that's it.
Oh, and there's also the extra ability based on the chosen skin (racial).
Good job Blizzard, you did to games the same thing that Macdonald's did to restaurants.
Mediocrity is indeed profitable.
I have played a Retribution Paladin for a long time now. When I started the character I did not exactly know what specs were, but I had an idea of what a paladin was. I was shocked to find out that the traditional paladin, a knight with some small holy powers, was the least popular play style and that people preferred full healers, and then later on the tank became almost as acceptable. By that time I had decided to stay the course, and it became a very defining characteristic. I researched the best way to make Ret work, and adjusted with each new tweak Blizzard did to them, until I was the best Traditional Paladin I could be.
Last night, when logged in, I was whispered by someone who had often tried to get get me to go healing because his guild wanted to recruit healers. He told me that his guild was now looking for Ret paladins. I had the absolute pleasure of telling him that the current guild I was with had accepted and used me as Ret when Ret was not "cool." I am going to stick with them, because they stuck by me, and saw my worth as a player, not a cog.
Spec, in my case, has not only set the character of my avatar, but shown the character of those I chose to play with.
Ret very well may get some nerfing, and thats fine with me, because that character will ALWAYS be Ret, good times and bad, and that wont change with the toggle.
Last night, when logged in, I was whispered by someone who had often tried to get get me to go healing because his guild wanted to recruit healers. He told me that his guild was now looking for Ret paladins. I had the absolute pleasure of telling him that the current guild I was with had accepted and used me as Ret when Ret was not "cool." I am going to stick with them, because they stuck by me, and saw my worth as a player, not a cog.
Spec, in my case, has not only set the character of my avatar, but shown the character of those I chose to play with.
Ret very well may get some nerfing, and thats fine with me, because that character will ALWAYS be Ret, good times and bad, and that wont change with the toggle.
# posted by : 18/10/08 02:04
: 18/10/08 02:04
DPS specs whinging about other classes being able to have two specs....did I miss something there?
My main is a Prot warrior and you have no idea how frustrating it is to only be able to play half a game noting you cannot PvP, grind, farm mats without spending an inordinate amount of money.
I applaud this decision. It will also let raids say 'right we don't need a fourth tank for this fight, swap into your DPS gear', or 'We could really use a shadow priest instead of an 8th healer for this one'....allowing committed raiders to actually partake in raids without having to be stood aside for someone else to make up numbers.
It comes down to giving people more fun, so why whinge?
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My main is a Prot warrior and you have no idea how frustrating it is to only be able to play half a game noting you cannot PvP, grind, farm mats without spending an inordinate amount of money.
I applaud this decision. It will also let raids say 'right we don't need a fourth tank for this fight, swap into your DPS gear', or 'We could really use a shadow priest instead of an 8th healer for this one'....allowing committed raiders to actually partake in raids without having to be stood aside for someone else to make up numbers.
It comes down to giving people more fun, so why whinge?
# posted by : 18/10/08 03:17
: 18/10/08 03:17<< Home
