To this day I still don't understand how someone like Donald Trump could become the president of United States. And I also don't understand how, today, he still managed to get nearly half the votes instead of losing bad.
 

Almost as if one side has been stoking radical extremists for 4 years and now as they are are losing are continuing to spread lies and undermine our democracy.

But no both sides are the same right?

Y'all Qaeda rising.

On a side note I find it extremely amusing how all of a sudden media networks who fawned over Trump just so happened to find the "courage" to begin calling out his lies and cutting away from him now that it looks like he has lost. Even Fox News did it. As much as Trump and his enablers are to blame for creating such a divided political atmosphere the media deserve a large portion of blame as well. Every single major network bathes in sensationalism and they loved the past 4 years of Trump. This country needs a serious rethink on how these major 24/7 news outlets operate.
 

But no both sides are the same right?

No, certainly not the same. But I don't see the possibility of either side peacefully conceding if the other side wins. The details of the protests, and of the ensuing violence, would most certainly be different. But it isn't a simple matter of a "good" and an "evil" side, but rather a problem of both sides being honestly afraid of the other.
 

Because large portions of the base will vote red no matter what. Then you have one issue voters who will always vote red because of things like abortion or LGBTQ rights. Both sides have supporters like this to some extent.

You also have to remember a large portion of Trumps base literally thinks minorities and Democrats will destroy America if he loses. They were going to vote for Trump regardless of anything else.
 

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But it isn't a simple matter of a "good" and an "evil" side, but rather a problem of both sides being honestly afraid of the other."

You sure hit the nail on the head there. Like I said the media deserves a large portion of the blame for this. They enabled liars and promoted sensationalism
and misinformation to both sides for years.

Trump and his enablers share the biggest pile of blame of course but the media played a key role in fostering this division.
 

> all of a sudden media networks who fawned over Trump
> just so happened to find the "courage" to begin
> calling out his lies and cutting away from him
> now that it looks like he has lost.
> Even Fox News did it.

I've just watched it, I was speechless. An anchorman that cuts the USA presidents adding that "what the president is saying is in large part untrue" and "we have to correct the president". Embarrassing, to say the least.
 

Russia won the second cold war, that much is clear. When you are able to convince 40+% of people that the piss coming down is just rain, and at the same time make them happy because you tell them the piss is raining harder on those they hate, you have done the job of destabilizing and truly hurting your enemy. What percentage of blame lies where we can debate, but certainly almost everyone involved (politicians, tv media, social media) share some of the blame.

And the somewhat easy job of doing this will likely continue as enough russian pawns remain in the senate to likely block any meaningful changes to stop this. I hope I'm wrong on that part, but seeing the last four years I doubt it.
 

It started long time ago...
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The single most important thing we want to achieve is for President Obama to be a one-term president.

-Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, quoted in National Journal, November 4, 2010



 

Polarization started even earlier. Remember the Clinton impeachment?

During the Trump impeachment, it was mildly amusing to watch politicians from both parties defending the opposite positions that during the previous impeachment process.

(Personally, I think that Trump's transgression - trying to coerce a foreign country to announce criminal investigation against Trump's political opponent - was much more serious ground for impeachment than Clinton's transgression - lying about a consensual sexual relation in the past)
 

Democracy has always been messy. I see this as inline with history. The key to me is not the moment, but the longer term response. How do we (I’m American) respond to this in the next 10-20 years? Things that I hope for are more transparency within government, less partisanship within the media, and a societal will for open discussion with the intent to understand the “other” side rather to convince the “other” side. I’m hopeful for the long game.
 

"Almost as if one side has been stoking radical extremists for 4 years and now as they are are losing are continuing to spread lies and undermine our democracy."

One side? The Democrats, you mean?
 

Russia won the second cold war, that much is clear. When you are able to convince 40+% of people that the piss coming down is just rain[....]

Exactly this, +100. And they have been helped by the constant and permanent cuts to education that politicians have been doing for decades. The damage this kinds of cut does is far in the future, so they don't get the blame, and they may even get more ignorant people who can be more easily manipulated. Well, as it turns out that people can also be more easily manipulated by any foreign entity, which can flood the media (heard of RT, Russia Today?) or through social media. If it wasn't that I'm on the opposite side I would congratulate Putin for the job. With an amount of money which is insignificant compared to military spending he ended up doing way more damage......
 

One side? The Democrats, you mean?

Snark aside, I don't think it is a matter of "one side". Nor is it a matter of "good people on both sides". It is more a matter of "bad people on both sides", and each side considering *their* bad people more leniently than the bad people of the other side. We end up with Democrats afraid of Proud Boys, and Republicans afraid of looters profiting from a Black Lives Matter protest. It is just as easy to imagine political violence from the left if Trump would still win, than it is to imagine it from the right for the increasingly likely case that Biden wins. It already started!
 

Sorry but when one side uses phrases like fighting the battle to the death and for Donald Trump to go to Total War over election fraud that just factually is not happening it's bull to circle back to this both sides are the same argument.

Both sides can be manipulated by lies sure. Both sides can have more radical elements, sure. (Although I'd argue there are demonstrably a lot less on the left but that's neither here nor there) What both sides arent though is they are not the same.

Mickfromvic can make snark comments all he wants. It doesnt change the fact that Trumps camp is still spreading lies to rile up his base and cast doubt on the election.

"We end up with Democrats afraid of Proud Boys"

When there founder Gavin McIness is out there making comments defending LITERAL Neo-Nazi's, staring in videos title "10 things I hate about Jews" and spouting conspiracy theories like and I quote “I think it was 10 million Ukrainians who were killed,” he said. “That was by Jews. That was by Marxist, Stalinist, left-wing, commie, socialist Jews.” I think it's reasonable to understand why people fear the group he founded. But I guess the guy did say he isn't a far right nut and he admitted there was at least some gassing of Jews during the Halocaust so he is totally the same as BLM protesters!

You keep on saying both sides have the same types of bad people Tobold. /shrug
 

You keep on saying both sides have the same types of bad people Tobold. /shrug

I actually *literally* said that they are not the same.

But I am also saying that you, as a defender of the left, are blind on your left eye. You don’t even *see* that the conservative half of the country is afraid of some elements on the left, and when you see something, you just can’t understand why anybody would be afraid of it. Which is exactly why this election is still in the balance, in spite of the candidate on the right being objectively unelectable. But the left has completely failed to adress the concerns of the other half of America, which makes it very hard to achieve any sort of unity.

I am a centrist. If I lived in the USA I would be afraid of both sides. And maybe even more of the left, because as an independent thinker, I would be more likely to be attacked by a woke online mob than by a bunch of rednecks with guns in their Hummer.
 

Im not blind to the many faults of the Democratic party. Democrats have plenty of work to do if they want to reach that population you speak of. They completely failed to address the claims by the right that they are socialists, laughable as they may be. They also completely ignore religious conservatives apart from key state elections that they lost on Tuesday anyways. They also take some voters for granted as seen by the split in the Hispanic vote. Democrats do indeed run the risk of letting the far left elements of the party alienate large portions of the country. Even now there is a narrative being spun by those elements that many of the centrist Dems lost Tuesday precisely because they weren't left enough... Complete nonsense to think Senators like Doug Jones would have won in states like Alabama by being even more liberal.

With all that being said I do think though that Biden is centrist enough that he can reach over that gap. If he can reign in the furthest reaches of his own party he just might be able to reach some of those folks who lean conservative. But its certainly not going to be an easy thing to balance.

Guess we'll find out in 4 years.