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Wednesday, March 01, 2006
Where is the fun in that?
"Where is the fun in that?", my wife, an archetypical casual WoW player, asked me after having watched how we repeatedly got wiped in the ruins of Ahn'Qiraj (AQ20). And I didn't have a good reply. It was certainly fun to see the dungeon for the first time, and to be with my guild, trying to work out a strategy to beat the first boss. But that first boss simply was too hard, and having to give up after over 3 hours and several wipes was no fun at all.
Now my guild isn't one of the "uber" guilds, but we are nevertheless more powerful than the average. We are six bosses deep into Molten Core, and I don't know how many bosses we regularly kill in Zul'Gurub. So we do have several people with a number of epic items, we do have raid experience, and we do have the numbers and organization for regular raids. And then the first boss in the easier of the two new raid dungeons just wipes us repeatedly until our armor is broken, we repair, come back to wipe once more, until we finally give up.
We had 5 warriors and 5 priests, plus 10 damage dealers of different types, and most combats against Kurinnaxx ended with him having over half his health remaining. We tried different strategies, had information from the internet, switched between tanks when they got too many debuffs, but it didn't help. Kurinnaxx uses a kind of sand trap, and when you see one appearing next to you, even if you run as fast as you can, it still damages you and silences you for 15 seconds. As a priest, with shield up and a nature resistance buff I barely survive such a trap explosion, and then I can't heal for 15 seconds and can only watch the tanks dying. And the tanks die fast, because Kurinnaxx puts an anti-healing debuff on them. Even switching after 3-4 debuffs to another tank doesn't help much. And while switching aggro from one tank to another, there is a risk that the tanks lose aggro, and Kurinnaxx summons a priest or mage and insta-kills him with one swipe. This encounter is really, really tough.
The game basically tells us that we are n00bs, and that we should go back to Zul'Gurub and Molten Core repeatedly for next couple of months, until we are all so dripping in epics that we can start tackling Ahn'Qiraj. And, oh yes, the next dungeon planned, the floating necropolis Nexxramas, will be even harder.
Basically World of Warcraft is falling into the same trap as Everquest did, creating content mainly for a small minority of hardcore gamers, and leaving not only the casual gamer, but also the average gamer far behind. Creating content that the majority of your players can't access is basically a waste of time. Ahn'Qiraj should have been created at a difficulty level that at least in the AQ20 part an average *raid* guild manages to kill the first bosses after working out the strategy in 2 or 3 wipes. The *final* boss of AQ20 should have the difficulty level of what is now the first boss.
What good is it to have so many raid dungeons, Onyxia, Blackwing Lair, the two Ahn'Qiraj and Nexxramas, basically standing empty? With just the most powerful guild on each side being able to visit these places?
The waste becomes particularly obvious if you think that before the end of the year the Burning Crusade expansion set will raise the level cap to 70. Is Ahn'Qiraj supposed to become a tourist attraction for bored level 70 players, who just go there to have a look around a place they couldn't visit at 60, but where the loot isn't really interesting enough any more for a level 70 player?
Shane Dabiri, WoW's lead producer, said in an interview with the BBC that "Increasing the level cap will definitely give players a lot more power. It's very similar to the current level 60 players going back to a level 40 dungeon." Imagine a raid dungeon of Scarlet Monastery level now, who the heck would go there with their level 60s? Who would want an epic, bind on pickup level 40 item, when he can easily get a green or blue level 60 item which is better?
The time it took the developers to create all of this content which stands empty could have been much better spend creating dungeons for all those average level 60 players who are getting increasingly bored. Moving from "being level 60" to being able to beat Ahn'Qiraj is not an inevitable process, like leveling. For many people it poses an insurmountable barrier, and seeing more and more content created on the other side of that barrier just serves to frustrate the majority.
- posted by Tobold @ 9:11 AM Permanent Link
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I couldn't agree with you more. I did around 20 Molten Core raids with my first 60 (a Paladin). He got two pieces of his T1 epic armor and got to see Ragnaros (though the raid wasn't ready to beat him at the time).
Now it's almost a year later, I have a job (not in school any more) and my schedule isn't conducive to the 40-man raids. I've also leveled up a 2nd 60 (a Warlock). With her, I've recently decided to ignore the 20-man and 40-man content because I simply don't have the time, or dedication any more, to honestly commit to a strong raiding group. And if you can't commit like that, the content isn't worth it.
MC is the first. When your group has MC down and is *very* well-equipped, it's time to start thinking of BWL and AQ-20. ZG-20 is easier than those two but not by much. You still need good people with good gear if you want to see ZG past the first 3 bosses and get the "nice" epic loot.
And now I'm bored with my Warlock 'cause ignoring the 20 & 40-man raids leaves me with the same instances and same game that my Paladin ran forever. (And I mean *forever*! My Paladin has over 4 different sets of armors for different purposes, not to mention tons of different weapons. That's what happens when you run the level 60 instances a few dozen times each.)
So what to do?
I started an Undead Priest on a new server. I remembered how much fun my first character was and thought I'd give it a shot in a place where I have no resources, no assistance, and no goal of getting into the 20 & 40-man's. So I'll see what happens. So far I like it. She's up to level 8.5 after 2 nights of playing but the environment is different and it really is a different game for me. I don't know the Horde side at all so I've got a learning curve. Plus my coin is short and I need to make intelligent decisions about spending it on skills vs. weapons (wand) vs. armor vs. bags. It's something I haven't had to do for a long time.
I really do wish Blizzard would create more level 60 instances. Dire Maul was excellent! Unfortunately that was the last instance-content added that I've actually used. Even though it's not as "exciting" as the phat epics they keep introducing, Blizzard really should add more blues with more 10 and 15-man level 60 instances. And not *difficult* ones per se. Just more choices, more options for where to go and what to do now that you can't level any more.
Now it's almost a year later, I have a job (not in school any more) and my schedule isn't conducive to the 40-man raids. I've also leveled up a 2nd 60 (a Warlock). With her, I've recently decided to ignore the 20-man and 40-man content because I simply don't have the time, or dedication any more, to honestly commit to a strong raiding group. And if you can't commit like that, the content isn't worth it.
MC is the first. When your group has MC down and is *very* well-equipped, it's time to start thinking of BWL and AQ-20. ZG-20 is easier than those two but not by much. You still need good people with good gear if you want to see ZG past the first 3 bosses and get the "nice" epic loot.
And now I'm bored with my Warlock 'cause ignoring the 20 & 40-man raids leaves me with the same instances and same game that my Paladin ran forever. (And I mean *forever*! My Paladin has over 4 different sets of armors for different purposes, not to mention tons of different weapons. That's what happens when you run the level 60 instances a few dozen times each.)
So what to do?
I started an Undead Priest on a new server. I remembered how much fun my first character was and thought I'd give it a shot in a place where I have no resources, no assistance, and no goal of getting into the 20 & 40-man's. So I'll see what happens. So far I like it. She's up to level 8.5 after 2 nights of playing but the environment is different and it really is a different game for me. I don't know the Horde side at all so I've got a learning curve. Plus my coin is short and I need to make intelligent decisions about spending it on skills vs. weapons (wand) vs. armor vs. bags. It's something I haven't had to do for a long time.
I really do wish Blizzard would create more level 60 instances. Dire Maul was excellent! Unfortunately that was the last instance-content added that I've actually used. Even though it's not as "exciting" as the phat epics they keep introducing, Blizzard really should add more blues with more 10 and 15-man level 60 instances. And not *difficult* ones per se. Just more choices, more options for where to go and what to do now that you can't level any more.
# posted by 
: 1/3/06 14:00
: 1/3/06 14:00
~
Creating content that the majority of your players can't access is basically a waste of time.
Yes - totally agree here. WoW doesn't have 5 million l33t Gamers - they maybe only have a few hundred thousand. This game has taken off because it's so obscenely stuffed with content it makes Mr. Creosote look anorexic. I've been playing the game for a year and I'm still seeing new things new places I've never seen before on a regular basis. Not TOO many new things - but still I remain impressed that that's possible. If Blizzard doesn't recognize this fact they do so at their peril.
That being said...
"Increasing the level cap will definitely give players a lot more power. It's very similar to the current level 60 players going back to a level 40 dungeon."
As long as there is enough for people to see and discover on their own or in small groups most people won't care if they never see the inside of AQ or NN - but even so I'll tell you in a heartbeat that if I level on to 70 in the Xpac I'll definitely swing by those places just to take a look at them when they're safer for me to visit. So those places aren't really out of reach to me.
The point of your post is dead on though. The Xpac will be the first real test of whether Blizzard has their own best long-term interests at heart. If they don't add a LOT of new stuff for smaller groups to do it will crash and burn.
Creating content that the majority of your players can't access is basically a waste of time.
Yes - totally agree here. WoW doesn't have 5 million l33t Gamers - they maybe only have a few hundred thousand. This game has taken off because it's so obscenely stuffed with content it makes Mr. Creosote look anorexic. I've been playing the game for a year and I'm still seeing new things new places I've never seen before on a regular basis. Not TOO many new things - but still I remain impressed that that's possible. If Blizzard doesn't recognize this fact they do so at their peril.
That being said...
"Increasing the level cap will definitely give players a lot more power. It's very similar to the current level 60 players going back to a level 40 dungeon."
As long as there is enough for people to see and discover on their own or in small groups most people won't care if they never see the inside of AQ or NN - but even so I'll tell you in a heartbeat that if I level on to 70 in the Xpac I'll definitely swing by those places just to take a look at them when they're safer for me to visit. So those places aren't really out of reach to me.
The point of your post is dead on though. The Xpac will be the first real test of whether Blizzard has their own best long-term interests at heart. If they don't add a LOT of new stuff for smaller groups to do it will crash and burn.
# posted by : 1/3/06 14:55
: 1/3/06 14:55
"What good is it to have so many raid dungeons, Onyxia, Blackwing Lair, the two Ahn'Qiraj and Nexxramas, basically standing empty? With just the most powerful guild on each side being able to visit these places?"
I can only speak for my server (the 1st german pve server opening AQ) and here a huge part of the community is playing MC and above. When i compare this to the number of people who participated in the current EQ endgame even the comparison is rudiculous. I do understand, why Blizzard will not spill out another Dire Maul at this time. Blizzard will not waste time, to cater to a minority of players. Someday AQ and Naxxramas will be content for everyone, while another Dire Maul would not. This new raid stuff is just one huge carrot for the players, who can not have fun with their AQ epics - yet.
My guild is one of those casual raiding ones i guess. We pretty much can farm MC (sans Ragnaros) and ZG. First AQ20 steps where successfull too. All that is doable with the majority of people having jobs and family life besides the raiding. I really believe that you can be part of the WoW (semi-)endgame without sacrificing your real life at all. I remember setting up a wake-up call to get a shot at Everquest_Random_Raid_Mob_1. Thank god those times are gone.
I do understand the complains though. But patience, Burning Crusade will be filled with more Dire Mauls and the current MC/AQ Epics will still be awesome for level 70 players. If not, the game will have much more trouble than content, who can only be used by the minority. AQ is the primary cliffhanger for the casuals, while Naxxramas will be the hardcores #1 reason to buy the expansion. I mean we have seen those things before, dont we?
I can only speak for my server (the 1st german pve server opening AQ) and here a huge part of the community is playing MC and above. When i compare this to the number of people who participated in the current EQ endgame even the comparison is rudiculous. I do understand, why Blizzard will not spill out another Dire Maul at this time. Blizzard will not waste time, to cater to a minority of players. Someday AQ and Naxxramas will be content for everyone, while another Dire Maul would not. This new raid stuff is just one huge carrot for the players, who can not have fun with their AQ epics - yet.
My guild is one of those casual raiding ones i guess. We pretty much can farm MC (sans Ragnaros) and ZG. First AQ20 steps where successfull too. All that is doable with the majority of people having jobs and family life besides the raiding. I really believe that you can be part of the WoW (semi-)endgame without sacrificing your real life at all. I remember setting up a wake-up call to get a shot at Everquest_Random_Raid_Mob_1. Thank god those times are gone.
I do understand the complains though. But patience, Burning Crusade will be filled with more Dire Mauls and the current MC/AQ Epics will still be awesome for level 70 players. If not, the game will have much more trouble than content, who can only be used by the minority. AQ is the primary cliffhanger for the casuals, while Naxxramas will be the hardcores #1 reason to buy the expansion. I mean we have seen those things before, dont we?
# posted by : 1/3/06 14:59
: 1/3/06 14:59
Brian's thoughts echo my own here. My guild runs 2 MC instances a week, one easily kills Rag and the other almost has him down. We are up to Chromaggus in BWL, have cleared ZG, killed the first boss in AQ40 and everything but Ossirian in AQ20.
We took Kurinaxx on the first attempt and although I know gear played some part, I really think it's more tactics (keeping him moving constantly seems to help enormously, MT should never stand still). If you are having such problems with him then you will really really hate the second boss as he is an order of magnitude more difficult IMO.
I really enjoy your blog and have for ages, but it's odd sometimes how much different your WoW experience is than mine. The only thing I can think is that it really all must depend on the guild, because mine is still very much a casual one, composed mainly of older folks with families etc. We aren't anywhere near being one of the "uber" guilds on our server though (Stormrage).
We took Kurinaxx on the first attempt and although I know gear played some part, I really think it's more tactics (keeping him moving constantly seems to help enormously, MT should never stand still). If you are having such problems with him then you will really really hate the second boss as he is an order of magnitude more difficult IMO.
I really enjoy your blog and have for ages, but it's odd sometimes how much different your WoW experience is than mine. The only thing I can think is that it really all must depend on the guild, because mine is still very much a casual one, composed mainly of older folks with families etc. We aren't anywhere near being one of the "uber" guilds on our server though (Stormrage).
# posted by : 1/3/06 17:45
: 1/3/06 17:45
In reading the above comments by Brian and Ockham, and considering my position aligns more with Tobold's than their's, I wonder if I haven't missed something or if I haven't looked hard enough at the 20 & 40-man's.
I think part of my hesitancy involves my past experiences with these instances (MC & Onyxia & ZG, namely). When I've gone to MC & ZG, the trips have taken inordinate amounts of time (easily over 3 hours, usually 4-5+ for MC) and the confidence in felling the bosses (to get the phat lewtz) is never assured. In MC, my last trips did half of MC in a take and we were confident in killing to and through Majordomo. In ZG, I've never seen the Spider boss die (nor have I seen any of the bosses after Spider).
Maybe I just need to look/advertise for a (new) raiding group/guild. I'll give it a shot, I s'pose. I really enjoy playing my Warlock and wouldn't mind doing 20 & 40-man instances with her if it didn't mandate that they take over my life.
I think part of my hesitancy involves my past experiences with these instances (MC & Onyxia & ZG, namely). When I've gone to MC & ZG, the trips have taken inordinate amounts of time (easily over 3 hours, usually 4-5+ for MC) and the confidence in felling the bosses (to get the phat lewtz) is never assured. In MC, my last trips did half of MC in a take and we were confident in killing to and through Majordomo. In ZG, I've never seen the Spider boss die (nor have I seen any of the bosses after Spider).
Maybe I just need to look/advertise for a (new) raiding group/guild. I'll give it a shot, I s'pose. I really enjoy playing my Warlock and wouldn't mind doing 20 & 40-man instances with her if it didn't mandate that they take over my life.
# posted by : 1/3/06 18:57
: 1/3/06 18:57
Alan,
Well it does take time. When we first started Onyxia and MC, we would spend 4-5 hours on a Saturday in MC each week. After we had made some progress we upped it to 2 nights of 3-4 hours. A few months later after all that practice and gearing up we had it down to clearing in 4 hours and only then did we start up a 2nd ID for people who couldnt get in to the first one.
However one of the keys to making it manageable is that our guild never requires attendance to raids, and doesnt punish people who have to leave early. Some guilds do. We use a website calendar to signup to raids, with them posted at least 3-4 days in advance (a week or more back when we were learning). You just have to pick and choose how you want to spend your time in game. Like Brian said I bet a lot of the people who consider themselves casual actually play more hours per week than I do on average.
Well it does take time. When we first started Onyxia and MC, we would spend 4-5 hours on a Saturday in MC each week. After we had made some progress we upped it to 2 nights of 3-4 hours. A few months later after all that practice and gearing up we had it down to clearing in 4 hours and only then did we start up a 2nd ID for people who couldnt get in to the first one.
However one of the keys to making it manageable is that our guild never requires attendance to raids, and doesnt punish people who have to leave early. Some guilds do. We use a website calendar to signup to raids, with them posted at least 3-4 days in advance (a week or more back when we were learning). You just have to pick and choose how you want to spend your time in game. Like Brian said I bet a lot of the people who consider themselves casual actually play more hours per week than I do on average.
# posted by : 1/3/06 19:25
: 1/3/06 19:25
Chrismue, I'm not sure how you guys can manage all that and consider yourselves "casual". Getting 40 people to synchronize their schedules in the US is pretty much impossible unless they are unemployed or students.
Considering the number of hours involved in organizing and running these instances once a week, this means your guild members are on WoW at least 15-20 hours per week (and that's if you do absolutely nothing else in WoW). This is NOT casual play by any definition.
Between work, girlfriend, friends and other obligations, I could never commit enough time for more than one MC/BWL/ZG run every week. Add to this the fact that these instances bore me to tears (listen to orders, mash button over and over until - CHEER! - boss is dead), and I see no incentive to play these instances. The 5 man content requires every player to think smart and play well. One weak player destroys the group. In UBRS, I skip whole mob groups drinking up, and there is negligible impact to the encounter. The fact is, the larger the group, the less important each toon becomes, and only the leader's ability to lead, and the soldiers' ability to obey, determines the outcome.
If I wanted to be a soldier, I'd join the military, and get to carry a gun. People get so carried away with getting the cool purple crap, they forget that we play video games to have fun. Any way you cut it, 20 and 40-man content is not much fun.
Considering the number of hours involved in organizing and running these instances once a week, this means your guild members are on WoW at least 15-20 hours per week (and that's if you do absolutely nothing else in WoW). This is NOT casual play by any definition.
Between work, girlfriend, friends and other obligations, I could never commit enough time for more than one MC/BWL/ZG run every week. Add to this the fact that these instances bore me to tears (listen to orders, mash button over and over until - CHEER! - boss is dead), and I see no incentive to play these instances. The 5 man content requires every player to think smart and play well. One weak player destroys the group. In UBRS, I skip whole mob groups drinking up, and there is negligible impact to the encounter. The fact is, the larger the group, the less important each toon becomes, and only the leader's ability to lead, and the soldiers' ability to obey, determines the outcome.
If I wanted to be a soldier, I'd join the military, and get to carry a gun. People get so carried away with getting the cool purple crap, they forget that we play video games to have fun. Any way you cut it, 20 and 40-man content is not much fun.
My $0.02: You will only get as much out of the game as you put into it...if you are willing to play 2 to 3 hours a week then of course you are not going to get THE gear and should be happy with what you got.
I have a life, marriage, kids, work, etc, but yet manage to get one to two MC raids in a week. And play weekends a little bit. Maybe it helps that the kids and my hubby play (we have 6 accounts total), I don't know.
In regards to wiping in AQ20...it takes time and patience...our guild sets time limits on how long we are raiding an instance...we did AQ20 for the first time last night as a guild raid and managed to get creamated by the second boss on several tries and eventually called it a night...but did I walk away feeling like "Why am I wasting my time?" No, because you need to learn how to crawl before you can walk! I remember when our guild didn't make it past Gehannas in MC and now we stop our raid after Majordomo, because not all of us have the gear yet that we need to conintue.
I play a priest and did not get trapped in a sand trap, but that's because I was told to rather let a warrior die then try to heal him and get stuck, because then we would both die! ;) I think we only had one toon die and downed the boss.
Suggestion: Have some of your guildies run AQ20 as guest players with another guild that manages to get past the first boss(es) and pick up pointers on what to do and not to do.
I wish you and your guild luck.
/cheer
I have a life, marriage, kids, work, etc, but yet manage to get one to two MC raids in a week. And play weekends a little bit. Maybe it helps that the kids and my hubby play (we have 6 accounts total), I don't know.
In regards to wiping in AQ20...it takes time and patience...our guild sets time limits on how long we are raiding an instance...we did AQ20 for the first time last night as a guild raid and managed to get creamated by the second boss on several tries and eventually called it a night...but did I walk away feeling like "Why am I wasting my time?" No, because you need to learn how to crawl before you can walk! I remember when our guild didn't make it past Gehannas in MC and now we stop our raid after Majordomo, because not all of us have the gear yet that we need to conintue.
I play a priest and did not get trapped in a sand trap, but that's because I was told to rather let a warrior die then try to heal him and get stuck, because then we would both die! ;) I think we only had one toon die and downed the boss.
Suggestion: Have some of your guildies run AQ20 as guest players with another guild that manages to get past the first boss(es) and pick up pointers on what to do and not to do.
I wish you and your guild luck.
/cheer
5 mans become trivialized even without purple gear. And yes 15-20 hours a week is probably not casual, what I was addressing is the misperception some people have that their 15-20 hours a week of non-raiding is casual and someone else's 15-20 hours a week of mostly raiding is not. The only difference is the raider is focused on different priorites during his game time.
And I agree with Brian again, if you really think 20 and 40 man stuff does not take just as much skill and coordination when you are learning an encounter than 5 man , you are grossly mistaken or just willfully ignoring it.
I hate to use the same example, but learning the Vael encounter if one person makes a mistake it will wipe you. Or even with Lucifron all it takes is bad positioning or mind control that isnt dispelled quickly on someone with aoe fear and it's game over as they aggro the imp cave.
I recognize that it's just not for everyone. Some people just dont like groups bigger than 10-15 and nothing anyone says will change it. That's ok. Where I take issue is the idea that because you don't like it, then it's intrinsically not worthwhile to attempt.
And I agree with Brian again, if you really think 20 and 40 man stuff does not take just as much skill and coordination when you are learning an encounter than 5 man , you are grossly mistaken or just willfully ignoring it.
I hate to use the same example, but learning the Vael encounter if one person makes a mistake it will wipe you. Or even with Lucifron all it takes is bad positioning or mind control that isnt dispelled quickly on someone with aoe fear and it's game over as they aggro the imp cave.
I recognize that it's just not for everyone. Some people just dont like groups bigger than 10-15 and nothing anyone says will change it. That's ok. Where I take issue is the idea that because you don't like it, then it's intrinsically not worthwhile to attempt.
# posted by : 1/3/06 20:01
: 1/3/06 20:01
Actually, I like a mix. A couple of ZG/MC runs mixed in with some smaller content and a little PvP on the side.
The way Blizzard has constructed the game, after you get your Tier0 gear (the undead instances, LBRS/UBRS and DM), the only place to go is the 20-man and 40-man. I understand that there should be a progression of difficulty, but here we are seeing a progession in complexity - not game complexity, but operational complexity.
There are weeks that I play 8-10 hours, and weeks I play 20 hours. I can, to a large extent, devote certain standard hours every week to fit in with a fixed schedule. But, unless I join a guild with people who play all day, every day, it is nearly impossible to get a guild together who have 10-20 hours per week available, and who can fix those hours to be consistent each and every week.
These are the extremes I've encountered - guilds with people who play 12-15 hours per day every day, and guilds with people who play some nights for anywhere from 2-5 hours. I am barred from the former, as I cannot devote that much time, and they demand that level of commitment. The latter make regular scheduled ZG/MC/BWL runs nigh-on impossible, and the level of command/control/communication required to run these instances requires a regular group of people who know their roles. PuGs and most "guild alliance" runs are not effective in these instances.
The way Blizzard has constructed the game, after you get your Tier0 gear (the undead instances, LBRS/UBRS and DM), the only place to go is the 20-man and 40-man. I understand that there should be a progression of difficulty, but here we are seeing a progession in complexity - not game complexity, but operational complexity.
There are weeks that I play 8-10 hours, and weeks I play 20 hours. I can, to a large extent, devote certain standard hours every week to fit in with a fixed schedule. But, unless I join a guild with people who play all day, every day, it is nearly impossible to get a guild together who have 10-20 hours per week available, and who can fix those hours to be consistent each and every week.
These are the extremes I've encountered - guilds with people who play 12-15 hours per day every day, and guilds with people who play some nights for anywhere from 2-5 hours. I am barred from the former, as I cannot devote that much time, and they demand that level of commitment. The latter make regular scheduled ZG/MC/BWL runs nigh-on impossible, and the level of command/control/communication required to run these instances requires a regular group of people who know their roles. PuGs and most "guild alliance" runs are not effective in these instances.
I posted an advert on my realm forum looking for a raiding guild/group. One reply so far - I'll have to see how it works out. I honestly wouldn't mind dedicating two to three chunks of time, weekly, for the 20 & 40-man raids.
I have to say that I generally like the 20-man ZG more than the 40-man MC. (The 40-man Onyxia doesn't count as she can be brought down within 10-15 min. by a decent group.) In ZG I feel as though every character counts more than in MC. A single player *may* be able to cause an MC wipe but a single player/mistake can easily cause a ZG wipe. It's comparable to the 15 vs. 5 instances (UBRS vs. 5-man Strat/Scholo). I also feel as though ZG is harder or keeps you on your toes a bit more.
In any case, I'm going to try giving the 20 & 40-man instances another shot (or *a* shot, as the case may be) if I can. And I do want my 'lock to get some phat epicz. I think I like the game and the character/class too much to completely give up on her yet.
I have to say that I generally like the 20-man ZG more than the 40-man MC. (The 40-man Onyxia doesn't count as she can be brought down within 10-15 min. by a decent group.) In ZG I feel as though every character counts more than in MC. A single player *may* be able to cause an MC wipe but a single player/mistake can easily cause a ZG wipe. It's comparable to the 15 vs. 5 instances (UBRS vs. 5-man Strat/Scholo). I also feel as though ZG is harder or keeps you on your toes a bit more.
In any case, I'm going to try giving the 20 & 40-man instances another shot (or *a* shot, as the case may be) if I can. And I do want my 'lock to get some phat epicz. I think I like the game and the character/class too much to completely give up on her yet.
# posted by : 1/3/06 22:55
: 1/3/06 22:55
I think what some of you are failing to grasp is that the MAJORITY of gamers do not fall into the category of having a guild that lets you play 10 hours a week and still attend raids. You are in those guilds probably because you played 100's of hours a week to master the instances. Sure now that they are on farm status and you have geared up for the new content you only spend 10 hours a week raiding. You fail to mention what was spent to get there. That is a mistake I see way too often from the raid camp.
Blizzard fucked up if you ask me. They have one of the best content driven leveling experiences ever and they fuck it up with uber loot driven raids. Raids would be a hell of a lot cooler if you didn't have to put them on farm status before being rewarded. If I spend 6 hours to down one boss I deserve a reward... not a lame DKP or /roll % chance at something. Fuck that.
Blizzard fucked up if you ask me. They have one of the best content driven leveling experiences ever and they fuck it up with uber loot driven raids. Raids would be a hell of a lot cooler if you didn't have to put them on farm status before being rewarded. If I spend 6 hours to down one boss I deserve a reward... not a lame DKP or /roll % chance at something. Fuck that.
I sure kicked the cat with my little rant. Thanks all for the tons of feedback!
First of all I want to say that I'm okay with MC and ZG. I just don't see the need for so much content *harder* than those. And I wonder why there isn't a 5-man dungeon available for people who have reached the meta-level at which Scholo/Strat/DM becomes trivial.
Most of the guilds who go to BWL regularly and who will be able to beat AQ40 have rules where you get kicked out of the guild for not attending enough raids, or going on holiday for 3 weeks. My guild goes to MC two or three times in some weeks, but not always with the same people. So by the time everbody has his 100 MC runs required to be strong enough for BWL/AQ40, the Burning Crusade expansion will be out, and BWL/AQ40 will be irrelevant.
And sorry, being able to organize 40 people regularly is *not* casual, and more than half of the WoW players in the world will never reach that level of organization. Don't confuse the "average WoW player" with the "average MMORPG blog/forum poster", because the latter is already a hell of a lot more advanced than the former.
I agree that figuring out a new boss mob, and developing a new strategy is fun. But obviously not everybody in a 40-man raid can develop strategy. It only works if *one* guy proposes a strategy and everybody else follows instructions. Being the one raid leader is a lot more challenging than a 5-man group. Being one of the other 39 soldiers following orders is a lot easier than a 5-man group.
First of all I want to say that I'm okay with MC and ZG. I just don't see the need for so much content *harder* than those. And I wonder why there isn't a 5-man dungeon available for people who have reached the meta-level at which Scholo/Strat/DM becomes trivial.
Most of the guilds who go to BWL regularly and who will be able to beat AQ40 have rules where you get kicked out of the guild for not attending enough raids, or going on holiday for 3 weeks. My guild goes to MC two or three times in some weeks, but not always with the same people. So by the time everbody has his 100 MC runs required to be strong enough for BWL/AQ40, the Burning Crusade expansion will be out, and BWL/AQ40 will be irrelevant.
And sorry, being able to organize 40 people regularly is *not* casual, and more than half of the WoW players in the world will never reach that level of organization. Don't confuse the "average WoW player" with the "average MMORPG blog/forum poster", because the latter is already a hell of a lot more advanced than the former.
I agree that figuring out a new boss mob, and developing a new strategy is fun. But obviously not everybody in a 40-man raid can develop strategy. It only works if *one* guy proposes a strategy and everybody else follows instructions. Being the one raid leader is a lot more challenging than a 5-man group. Being one of the other 39 soldiers following orders is a lot easier than a 5-man group.
Chrismue, I'm not sure how you guys can manage all that and consider yourselves "casual". Getting 40 people to synchronize their schedules in the US is pretty much impossible unless they are unemployed or students.
Considering the number of hours involved in organizing and running these instances once a week, this means your guild members are on WoW at least 15-20 hours per week (and that's if you do absolutely nothing else in WoW). This is NOT casual play by any definition.
Thats interesting, cause i really do see myself as a casual player now. We do have 3 days a week raiding. The average time for one of those raids is around 3 to 4 hours, wich is 12 hours a week, to be a full active raid member of my guild. 12 hours a week for my eyes is casual. Is it not? Cause it by no means is hardcore status. I see other players gaining 12 hours in 2 days or less, well thats hardcore for sure.
Your right, that some players invest more time, to keep the guild going. That is true, we have a hand full of people who are true hardcore time-wise, but the majority is not.
We dont clear MC/ZG/AQ20 every week, but we did progress up to this point, with only this amount of time per week. This guild came from Everquest, and i still remember the amounts of time, we needed to pump into this game, to get some progress out of it. Compared to WoW we do feel casual now actually.
Considering the number of hours involved in organizing and running these instances once a week, this means your guild members are on WoW at least 15-20 hours per week (and that's if you do absolutely nothing else in WoW). This is NOT casual play by any definition.
Thats interesting, cause i really do see myself as a casual player now. We do have 3 days a week raiding. The average time for one of those raids is around 3 to 4 hours, wich is 12 hours a week, to be a full active raid member of my guild. 12 hours a week for my eyes is casual. Is it not? Cause it by no means is hardcore status. I see other players gaining 12 hours in 2 days or less, well thats hardcore for sure.
Your right, that some players invest more time, to keep the guild going. That is true, we have a hand full of people who are true hardcore time-wise, but the majority is not.
We dont clear MC/ZG/AQ20 every week, but we did progress up to this point, with only this amount of time per week. This guild came from Everquest, and i still remember the amounts of time, we needed to pump into this game, to get some progress out of it. Compared to WoW we do feel casual now actually.
# posted by : 2/3/06 14:01
: 2/3/06 14:01
chrismue, such guilds are quite rare. Consider yourself blessed.
In general, people who are hardcore start guilds and expect recruits to devote as much time as they do to advancing the interests of the guild. A GM who spends all his time organizing and managing a guild wants grunts who will spend just as many hours farming for mats, helping guildies equip for endgame, etc. The ego perspective of such a person is, "If I'm going to spend 40 hours a week keeping this guild organized, you are each going to spend as many hours getting this guild mats and loot".
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In general, people who are hardcore start guilds and expect recruits to devote as much time as they do to advancing the interests of the guild. A GM who spends all his time organizing and managing a guild wants grunts who will spend just as many hours farming for mats, helping guildies equip for endgame, etc. The ego perspective of such a person is, "If I'm going to spend 40 hours a week keeping this guild organized, you are each going to spend as many hours getting this guild mats and loot".
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