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Wednesday, August 02, 2006
Why can't we admit it's over?
Having read a couple of magazines about PC games, I know that the "game of the month" is a new shooter named Prey. Some people don't like it, but other reviewers give it very high marks. Prey can be played through in 8 to 12 hours. And there are quite a number of games that only take about 10 hours to finish. Role-playing games usually last a bit longer, but even a Final Fantasy lasts only about 60 hours, and the longest single-player RPG I've read about time to completion was Baldur's Gate with 200 hours, if you do all sub-quests. And yet here we are and discuss that World of Warcraft has a design flaw, because unless you raid there is nothing left to do for you after about 500 hours. Why can't we admit that we reached an invisible game over screen?
I don't think there is a "design flaw" in World of Warcraft. It just ends, like any other game. While you play, you consume content in the form of quests, zones, spells and abilities, etc., and at some point you have seen it all. If it were Baldur's Gate, we would either put the CD back in the box and stop playing, or roll a new character and start over. But in World of Warcraft we insist on playing our level 60s for hundreds of hours more, excerting tremendous effort to reach the last tiny bits of content we haven't seen yet, all the time complaining that there isn't much content left. Isn't it us who have a "design flaw"?
Of course Blizzard is partly to blame, because they foster that kind of behavior. Instead of giving us closure with a screen saying "Game over, congratulations, you won" at level 60, they give us that hard to reach content which requires 40 people to coordinate for hundreds of hours to achieve. That divides us into a group of people who are willing and able to coordinate with 39 others for hundreds of hours, and those who notice that this isn't the same World of Warcraft any more, and won't or can't chase after that last bit of content.
But whatever style of gameplay we prefer or are willing to cope with, we all want more content. We want the next episode of World of Warcraft, because we are tired of watching the first episode over and over. We just don't have the willpower to stop watching that first episode while waiting for the second one. Damn addiction!
- posted by Tobold @ 8:09 AM Permanent Link
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I don't think there is a "design flaw" in World of Warcraft. It just ends, like any other game. While you play, you consume content in the form of quests, zones, spells and abilities, etc., and at some point you have seen it all.
I do not agree completely here. For me this genre is in no way a Final Fantasy with real guys replacing NPCs, cause there is no story to be told. I mainly play classic single player RPGs with the aim to see the last boss die and enjoy the outro. I play MMOs to experience new situation to master them, everytime i log in, something i do not get in any Final-Fantasy.
In a way i do see this genre as a Street Fighter concept. I can not count the hours i played Street Fighter II. and III. cause there are very few moments of Dejavu. Almost every fight is a new level kinda. Same goes for MMO encounters. The thinking is, i do not know how the co-players react, this brings the thrill and the diversity to content, wich would be flat out boring without this. I did not start the game in february 05 to reach level 60 and call it quits. I did not start the character to kill Ragnaros and loot his "you-beat-the-game"-item.
Recently my guild switched servers, when the option was offered to transfer characters from. Going from maybe the most hardcore german PvE server to a very young PvE server, reminds me why even starting to mess with this genre. WoW is so much fun again it is unbelievable. We got some new members and they made the raids even in ancient zones fun again.
I do not agree completely here. For me this genre is in no way a Final Fantasy with real guys replacing NPCs, cause there is no story to be told. I mainly play classic single player RPGs with the aim to see the last boss die and enjoy the outro. I play MMOs to experience new situation to master them, everytime i log in, something i do not get in any Final-Fantasy.
In a way i do see this genre as a Street Fighter concept. I can not count the hours i played Street Fighter II. and III. cause there are very few moments of Dejavu. Almost every fight is a new level kinda. Same goes for MMO encounters. The thinking is, i do not know how the co-players react, this brings the thrill and the diversity to content, wich would be flat out boring without this. I did not start the game in february 05 to reach level 60 and call it quits. I did not start the character to kill Ragnaros and loot his "you-beat-the-game"-item.
Recently my guild switched servers, when the option was offered to transfer characters from. Going from maybe the most hardcore german PvE server to a very young PvE server, reminds me why even starting to mess with this genre. WoW is so much fun again it is unbelievable. We got some new members and they made the raids even in ancient zones fun again.
# posted by 
: 2/8/06 09:59
: 2/8/06 09:59
I think the situation is confused in the case of the MMO, largely down to the monthly fees and whatever content patches get added.
With an offline game - BG, NWN, Morrowind etc, it's a self-contained package, and any patching after that is often purely bug-fixes, but since UO and Everquest, we've gained expectations of the MMO as a sort of TV serial, rather than a one-off film. This isn't helped by the fact that we're paying for it every month, often around a third of the box price. Understandably, there is an expectation that we should be getting something extra for that money, each month. Paying to merely keep the current content in existence is a tricky thing to come to terms with for many.
Also, lack of an overarching narative doesn't help either. Most offline story-games have prepared you well for their finale, and after beating the boss, it feels *right* to stop there. Not so in the MMO, where reaching the end is more often than not, an abrupt sudden stop, with no outro at all. Easy to see why many people wouldn't even recognise it as The End at all.
Then again, chrismue makes a lot of good points about the diversity of the other players providing some degree of infinite content, although this tends only to be helpful if the players have many opportunities to be different and interesting - something that isn't very encouraged mid-raid, I'd imagine.
(Incidentally - good article at The Escapist about speedrunning - http://www.escapistmagazine.com/print/52/14. Morrowind completed in 7:30, Baldur's Gate 2 in 1:11:37, and one chap managed 1-60 in WoW in 115 hours.)
With an offline game - BG, NWN, Morrowind etc, it's a self-contained package, and any patching after that is often purely bug-fixes, but since UO and Everquest, we've gained expectations of the MMO as a sort of TV serial, rather than a one-off film. This isn't helped by the fact that we're paying for it every month, often around a third of the box price. Understandably, there is an expectation that we should be getting something extra for that money, each month. Paying to merely keep the current content in existence is a tricky thing to come to terms with for many.
Also, lack of an overarching narative doesn't help either. Most offline story-games have prepared you well for their finale, and after beating the boss, it feels *right* to stop there. Not so in the MMO, where reaching the end is more often than not, an abrupt sudden stop, with no outro at all. Easy to see why many people wouldn't even recognise it as The End at all.
Then again, chrismue makes a lot of good points about the diversity of the other players providing some degree of infinite content, although this tends only to be helpful if the players have many opportunities to be different and interesting - something that isn't very encouraged mid-raid, I'd imagine.
(Incidentally - good article at The Escapist about speedrunning - http://www.escapistmagazine.com/print/52/14. Morrowind completed in 7:30, Baldur's Gate 2 in 1:11:37, and one chap managed 1-60 in WoW in 115 hours.)
# posted by : 2/8/06 12:17
: 2/8/06 12:17
This is one of the main reasons I quit WOW. I love lots and lots of PC games. but from January to April of this year I played nothing but WOW. Eventually I chose to put WOW aside and spread my gaming around a bit.
I am still fascinated by the whole MMORPG thing. Unfortunately playing MMORPG even semi-seriously just isn't compatible with my life choices.
I would love to find a mmorpg like game that one could play a few hours one week and none the next, with a friendly mature community, with a billing structure that facilitated sporadic play, with the ability for experienced and novice players to interact in a meaningful way and that is fun to play. Suggestions?
I am still fascinated by the whole MMORPG thing. Unfortunately playing MMORPG even semi-seriously just isn't compatible with my life choices.
I would love to find a mmorpg like game that one could play a few hours one week and none the next, with a friendly mature community, with a billing structure that facilitated sporadic play, with the ability for experienced and novice players to interact in a meaningful way and that is fun to play. Suggestions?
# posted by : 2/8/06 13:45
: 2/8/06 13:45
I would love to find a mmorpg like game that one could play a few hours one week and none the next, with a friendly mature community, with a billing structure that facilitated sporadic play, with the ability for experienced and novice players to interact in a meaningful way and that is fun to play. Suggestions?
Closest I could think of is playing Puzzle Pirates on a dubloon ocean, where you pay for a special virtual currency, dubloons, of which you use more, the more you play. Puzzle Pirates certainly is fun for a while, but it is arguable whether it is a MMORPG, there being no levels and such.
Curiously it is the "friendly community" in games like WoW which makes playing irregular hours so hard. If you want to play with your friends, you need to be online at the same time as they are.
I agree on the players being part of the story, but only in a limited way. Especially in raids, for most bosses there is one good way to kill him, and anything creative gets 40 people wiped, which isn't encouraging non-standard behavior. The raid dungeon itself, including all bosses, is tinned content, to be opened and consumed.
Closest I could think of is playing Puzzle Pirates on a dubloon ocean, where you pay for a special virtual currency, dubloons, of which you use more, the more you play. Puzzle Pirates certainly is fun for a while, but it is arguable whether it is a MMORPG, there being no levels and such.
Curiously it is the "friendly community" in games like WoW which makes playing irregular hours so hard. If you want to play with your friends, you need to be online at the same time as they are.
I agree on the players being part of the story, but only in a limited way. Especially in raids, for most bosses there is one good way to kill him, and anything creative gets 40 people wiped, which isn't encouraging non-standard behavior. The raid dungeon itself, including all bosses, is tinned content, to be opened and consumed.
I've a bit of spare time this pm so I'm downloading Puzzle Pirates as I write. You make a very good point about the link between community and shared playing times. A solution which works for me is to have plenty of solo content but to be able to interact and chat to others while you are doing it. I guess WOW was this at lower levels but it became very obvious to me that this would not be sustainable at higher levels - another reason I quit.
# posted by : 2/8/06 16:35
: 2/8/06 16:35
the hard thing for me is that I want that endgame content but have no time to get there its frustrating
# posted by : 3/8/06 17:53
: 3/8/06 17:53
A subscription-based business model would suffer hard from a WoW-like "YOU WON"-Screen that it accessible after only a few months of play.
EQ/EQ2 is much more geared to long-term customers with their more frequent expansions.
Interestingly that question came also up on the EQ2 boards "What to do with a level 70/70/50 char who has done it all/seen it all" - basically the SOE-Rep said the equivalent of "You Won" and continued that their aim is not to keep up with the very hardcore players in creating content.
EQ/EQ2 is much more geared to long-term customers with their more frequent expansions.
Interestingly that question came also up on the EQ2 boards "What to do with a level 70/70/50 char who has done it all/seen it all" - basically the SOE-Rep said the equivalent of "You Won" and continued that their aim is not to keep up with the very hardcore players in creating content.
# posted by : 3/8/06 18:42
: 3/8/06 18:42
Nice article, and well stated as always. It was "game over" in WoW with me about a month ago. With no "casual" content being added that doesn't involve tedious grinding it was time to hang up my pixel packing FAR and give it a rest.
I think people have difficulty recognizing when they should be finished with a game. When I ask my friends why they still play the answer is never "because its fun". The answer is "I need to hit level 60 on my rogue alt" or "I need to make rank 10 in pvp" or "I need to get better gear before the expansion comes out".
MMOs tend to be goal driven, I know, but what about the fun?
I think people have difficulty recognizing when they should be finished with a game. When I ask my friends why they still play the answer is never "because its fun". The answer is "I need to hit level 60 on my rogue alt" or "I need to make rank 10 in pvp" or "I need to get better gear before the expansion comes out".
MMOs tend to be goal driven, I know, but what about the fun?
# posted by : 4/8/06 00:02
: 4/8/06 00:02
A big part of why many of us don't quit WoW or other MMOs is the social side of the game. I have a very small social group IRL and visits with friends are few & far between. Yet I know when I get home at the end of the day, after dinner is done and the kids are in bed, I can log on to WoW and my "friends" will be there and I'll maybe do a bit of gold farming or just hang out in IF (& contribute to the lag ;) and chat with people.
I've even run into a couple of old friends on the AH Bridge (who'd made the transition to hardcore raiding guilds) and we chatted /s style for a bit. What tends to happen then is other people see your comments and go Hey! I know him! so they stop by to chat.
MMOGs can be very social games and for people with little to no social life this is a big hook. If you live by yourself and do nothing in the evening but watch TV or play video games, it's life changing to suddenly have a group of people you can identify with, hang out with, chat with, and all w/o leaving the safety of your living room.
MMOGs FTW
I've even run into a couple of old friends on the AH Bridge (who'd made the transition to hardcore raiding guilds) and we chatted /s style for a bit. What tends to happen then is other people see your comments and go Hey! I know him! so they stop by to chat.
MMOGs can be very social games and for people with little to no social life this is a big hook. If you live by yourself and do nothing in the evening but watch TV or play video games, it's life changing to suddenly have a group of people you can identify with, hang out with, chat with, and all w/o leaving the safety of your living room.
MMOGs FTW
I'm going to disagree and say that for the way that MMORPGs are marketed, there really shouldn't be an end. I think we all expect an end to a game that has a single fee - the purchase price. The amount of avialable content is clearly all right there in that box. The monthly subscription models lends to the idea that this will continue to grow in content and scope, because you are continuing to pay for it. When you multiply that out of a course of many months, its not trival amount to walk away from. I think that is part of why you dont just hang it up at 60 if you're bored. Not to mention that it was a hell of a ride, along with lots of work. I don't think it's strange at all that ppl dont just quit. I don't think that would be a normal reaction (quitting) for anything that you've spent time and money on, and of course, enjoyed along the way. People linger in all sorts of declined situations for these very same reasons.
There's alot to be said for graktar's comment on why people are still there...I also rarely here because it's still fun. What i do hear is about what they are still chasing - loot and/or rep. Maybe the word fun is assumed. Why would they be doing it if it isn't fun? Dunno. Inability to let go is possible.
For me personally, I know I should have been gone months ago but keep trying to stay to see if it will somehow magically become fun again. Why? Friends still play, son still plays and WOW has instilled a huge fear in me. That what you get in the beginning, may not be there in the end, and you'll either change your playing style or walk away.
There's alot to be said for graktar's comment on why people are still there...I also rarely here because it's still fun. What i do hear is about what they are still chasing - loot and/or rep. Maybe the word fun is assumed. Why would they be doing it if it isn't fun? Dunno. Inability to let go is possible.
For me personally, I know I should have been gone months ago but keep trying to stay to see if it will somehow magically become fun again. Why? Friends still play, son still plays and WOW has instilled a huge fear in me. That what you get in the beginning, may not be there in the end, and you'll either change your playing style or walk away.
# posted by : 5/8/06 02:22
: 5/8/06 02:22
The monthly subscription models lends to the idea that this will continue to grow in content and scope, because you are continuing to pay for it.
I can see how one could think so, but that isn't very realistic. For example Blizzard themselves say that the Burning Crusade expansion is only adding 25% of content to the game. And if you look what content was already there in November 2004 and what content got added in the patches, the added content makes up for less than 10% of the game, while the monthly fees from November 2004 to now largely surpass the initial cost of the game.
I can see how one could think so, but that isn't very realistic. For example Blizzard themselves say that the Burning Crusade expansion is only adding 25% of content to the game. And if you look what content was already there in November 2004 and what content got added in the patches, the added content makes up for less than 10% of the game, while the monthly fees from November 2004 to now largely surpass the initial cost of the game.
will you quit WoW for AoC or Warhammer when it comes out?
I'd like to answer that with a quote from Niels Bohr: "Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future."
The reason why I can't predict it, is that it doesn't work as simple as that. I would quit WoW if A) I had the impression that I had "finished" WoW (which depends on how much content the expansion adds) and B) I had the impression that there was a game of similar or better quality to go to. I'm still sceptical about most of the games announced for 2007, like the Age of Conan you mentioned. I'm less sceptical about Warhammer, liking the look of the previews, and being aware of the solid license and DAoC experience of Mythic. So Warhammer is certainly a game that I will at least try out. The decision to switch or not can only come once I played Warhammer and know whether it is as good as expected.
I'd like to answer that with a quote from Niels Bohr: "Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future."
The reason why I can't predict it, is that it doesn't work as simple as that. I would quit WoW if A) I had the impression that I had "finished" WoW (which depends on how much content the expansion adds) and B) I had the impression that there was a game of similar or better quality to go to. I'm still sceptical about most of the games announced for 2007, like the Age of Conan you mentioned. I'm less sceptical about Warhammer, liking the look of the previews, and being aware of the solid license and DAoC experience of Mythic. So Warhammer is certainly a game that I will at least try out. The decision to switch or not can only come once I played Warhammer and know whether it is as good as expected.
But you realise that Blizzard will add new patches and new contents all the time even after the expension. So, if you are waiting to "finish the game", it may take some time...
I mean, from your post it seems you don't know anymore why you are playing, but still can't stop. I was wondering about if you were still playing because you just're just waiting for the next thing to come. But it doesn't seem to be the case, since you can't say no.
Don't you think you crossed the barrier where you stopped playing it for fun a long time ago? Should people start to look at playing WoW as a social/psychological disorder? Should they start a WoW Anonymous?
Can you make the decision of not playing it for 1 or 2 weeks an really stick to it?
I mean, from your post it seems you don't know anymore why you are playing, but still can't stop. I was wondering about if you were still playing because you just're just waiting for the next thing to come. But it doesn't seem to be the case, since you can't say no.
Don't you think you crossed the barrier where you stopped playing it for fun a long time ago? Should people start to look at playing WoW as a social/psychological disorder? Should they start a WoW Anonymous?
Can you make the decision of not playing it for 1 or 2 weeks an really stick to it?
# posted by : 9/8/06 13:01
: 9/8/06 13:01
The list of other MMORPG I stopped playing is long, so I am 100% sure that I will stop playing WoW one day. You are falling into the same trap than most mainstream journalists, talking of a WoW-addiction, and before that of EQ-addiction. But if anything it is a MMORPG "addiction" or video games "addiction". I don't see me stopping to play MMORPGs or video games in general in the foreseeable future. The games are interchangeable, sooner or later everybody will change to the next big game.
Well, I don't think I'm falling in any trap. I'm just talking about what YOU said:
"We want the next episode of World of Warcraft, because we are tired of watching the first episode over and over. We just don't have the willpower to stop watching that first episode while waiting for the second one. Damn addiction!"
Now, for me, if you reach a point where you can say this, I think something is wrong with the game you are playing. I realise you like MMORPG so I was just wondering if you couldn't stop, because there is nothing as good at the moment and that's your only MMORPG option, or you just can't stop playing that game... In which case I would like to understand why...
"We want the next episode of World of Warcraft, because we are tired of watching the first episode over and over. We just don't have the willpower to stop watching that first episode while waiting for the second one. Damn addiction!"
Now, for me, if you reach a point where you can say this, I think something is wrong with the game you are playing. I realise you like MMORPG so I was just wondering if you couldn't stop, because there is nothing as good at the moment and that's your only MMORPG option, or you just can't stop playing that game... In which case I would like to understand why...
# posted by : 10/8/06 06:39
: 10/8/06 06:39
Cimerian, I wrote something for you: Defining Addiction
The "damn addiction" remark was a joke, sorry for the difficulty of getting jocular remarks across in a written text. As I say in the article linked to above, I am not addicted to World of Warcraft, as it doesn't have a negative effect on the rest of my life. I just have a certain amount of leisure time, as everybody, and I choose to spend a large part (but not 100%) of this leisure time playing MMORPG, of which I consider WoW to be the best at the moment. If a better MMORPG comes out, I'll switch.
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The "damn addiction" remark was a joke, sorry for the difficulty of getting jocular remarks across in a written text. As I say in the article linked to above, I am not addicted to World of Warcraft, as it doesn't have a negative effect on the rest of my life. I just have a certain amount of leisure time, as everybody, and I choose to spend a large part (but not 100%) of this leisure time playing MMORPG, of which I consider WoW to be the best at the moment. If a better MMORPG comes out, I'll switch.
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