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Wednesday, March 21, 2007
Measuring player performance in WoW
I had a mail from Cap'n John on an idea of his about damage meters:
I have an answer to the obligatory damage meters where everyone wants to be #1 and anyone below them should "Lrn2Play, Nubcakes!"Personally I'm not a big fan of damage meters, and especially not of healing meters. And while Cap'n John's idea would be an improvement, I don't think that its solving the problem.
Damage Meters (D) and Healing Meters (H) already exist. What we need is a Mod that compares both figures and gives us a new variable, say X, where X = D/H. The more Damage you do and the less Healing you require, the higher X will be. Dish out a ton of Damage but need a lot of TLC from the Priest and your X-factor will be lower. Now we're talking low maintenance DPS.
Naturally a Tank will have a low X-factor because his (or her) job is not to inflict a lot of damage but to absorb a lot of damage, meaning he will need a lot of Heals compared to his Damage output, but that's acceptable for the Tank.
X = D/H will reveal that the Rogue who topped the Damage charts needed more healing than the Tank, which could explain why the Priest was OOM and unable to heal the Tank, which is when Wipes occur.
High DPS good, low maintenance DPS better (shades of Animal Farm?).
Of course the other side to this argument is that if the DPS is high enough the Mobs will go down so fast that a few extra Heals thrown the Rogue's way are no big deal. But that's usually only going to happen when the group is overpowered versus the Instance's difficulty level, as you, Tobold, found out on your recent MC Run.
I'd be interested to know if the Damage and Healing Meters could be configured to throw up this X-Factor, as an answer to the guy who loves to toss up the Dmg Meters after every Boss fight.
"Yeah, pal, you're #1 on the Damage Meters, but look at the Healing you needed. No wonder our Priest is always OOM and needs to drink after every single fight."
The underlying problem is that measuring damage and healing output only gives you a total score. It does not tell you anything about the timing of that damage or healing. And I would argue that the timing of damage and healing is what makes a good player, not the total output.
That is easiest to see with healing. Imagine two groups running the same dungeon in parallel, each of the group having just one healer. Obviously the success criteria to compare the two groups and the two healers would be which of the groups has the least deaths, and not which of them has the higher amount of points healed. In fact, if both groups come out without deaths, the group which used *less* healing to achieve that is probably the better one. If one of the groups used a lot more healing, they probably ended up with the healer being out of mana a lot more often after the fight, thus everybody waiting for him to drink and recover his mana between fights. Equally obvious when comparing the two groups healing scores is that the healer isn't uniquely responsible for the score. If one group manages aggro much better, so that the mobs always hit the tank, with his better damage reduction, the healer will need to heal less points. Now combine the two groups into one raid group, and the same thing still applies. Assuming the healers work with some sort of healing assignment, it is a lot more important that their healing target doesn't die than how many points they heal. And the behavior of the healing target influences the score. So you can't pull out a healing meter at the end of the raid and determine who was the best healer. There is a brilliant post on Yet Another Nightelf's blog on how to top the healing meters by doing all the things that are bad for a raid.
Similar considerations apply for damage. More damage isn't always better. One important aspect is timing. A mage starts a combat with a full mana bar, a tank with an empty rage bar. If the mage pulls out his biggest guns right away, without waiting for the tank to gain some aggro and rage, he is likely to pull the mob away from the tank if he lands a crit. That leads at the very least to the tank losing time by having to run after the mob, and the healer wasting mana on having to heal the mage. In the worst cases it leads to people dying and the group wiping. Timing the damage to do less damage at the start and using the biggest spell to for the death blow is a lot better gameplay, but a damage meter can't show that. Another aspect is mana efficiency. Killing a mob faster with more damage only helps if the time you gain that way is longer than the time you lose for having to recover that mana. If your mage is out of mana after every trash mob, and is reduced to using his wand after half the boss fight, he isn't a very good mage, whatever huge damage numbers he produced.
If you are in a good group with good players, you will know it. If somebody screws up, you will often also know what went wrong. But you won't be able to describe that difference between good and bad with some simple to measure numbers. How do you measure how good your pulls are, how little time you lost standing around, how well the aggro management was? Damage meters, whatever you do to modify the numbers, won't tell you that. And people looking after their damage meter and healing meter scores are more likely to play bad than good, because playing after the meter just encourages bad behavior.
- posted by Tobold @ 9:16 AM Permanent Link
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i'm not entirely satisfied with your explanation, because you are saying deaths are "bad"
why, may i ask?
there may be some scenarios that in the end a death will have as a result less healing in total than when they all stay alive ;)
perhaps even less downtime since only one has to regen.
basically i think the best meter is how fast you clean out an instance since that takes into account everything.
why, may i ask?
there may be some scenarios that in the end a death will have as a result less healing in total than when they all stay alive ;)
perhaps even less downtime since only one has to regen.
basically i think the best meter is how fast you clean out an instance since that takes into account everything.
# posted by 
: 21/3/07 10:59
: 21/3/07 10:59
on a side note, i just use ktm, threatmeter. it's also not accurate, but it just sums the threat you are creating on the mobs.
# posted by : 21/3/07 11:01
: 21/3/07 11:01
I ran an instance once where my paladin (who is Holy spec.) took a more generic role in the group since there was a priest who was keen to main heal. I used Judgement of Light on the mob determined to be the current focus of the group's DPS, and various other judgements when required, to prevent runners, give the casters a chance to regain some mana etc. I switched between mobs to keep the various judgements up, threw the odd flash heal around to keep people topped-up if it seemed like a good idea, and dropped the odd critical Holy Light on the priest when he had the misfortune to grab aggro from the tank in a particularly tricky situation.
When my friend showed me the results of the DamageMeters at the end of the run I was bottom of damage and bottom of healing, the latter being primarily because my judgement of light healing counts as self-heals for those people healed by it. So my friend the Rogue was, if I recall correctly, second in the healing ranks due to the rate at which he procs the Judgement of Light (a self-heal trinket probably helped too).
The instance run was a complete success where several others in the group had failed it before, with no deaths and little drama.
The DamageMeters would probably indicate that I was worthless to the group, but I feel I added value even if I wasn't vital. Is there really an easy way to say 'That person performed well' purely on sheer weight of numbers? Is this one of the reasons that hybrids seem to be loathed, in the fact that it's often hard to say 'you should be doing X DPS or Y amount of healing' because you can't quantify utility, and thus it is factored-in as worthless?
When my friend showed me the results of the DamageMeters at the end of the run I was bottom of damage and bottom of healing, the latter being primarily because my judgement of light healing counts as self-heals for those people healed by it. So my friend the Rogue was, if I recall correctly, second in the healing ranks due to the rate at which he procs the Judgement of Light (a self-heal trinket probably helped too).
The instance run was a complete success where several others in the group had failed it before, with no deaths and little drama.
The DamageMeters would probably indicate that I was worthless to the group, but I feel I added value even if I wasn't vital. Is there really an easy way to say 'That person performed well' purely on sheer weight of numbers? Is this one of the reasons that hybrids seem to be loathed, in the fact that it's often hard to say 'you should be doing X DPS or Y amount of healing' because you can't quantify utility, and thus it is factored-in as worthless?
A mage doing kamikaze AOE to distract adds is preferable to the healers (and thus the tanks) dying. Or letting a ninjapuller die instead of getting healing aggro. However, these are exceptions. In general, DPS classes should receive little or no damage and thus be self-sufficient.
IMHO, it's all about efficiency and reliability. Time spent is one criteria, but not the only one. Resources spent are an another. Reliability is a third. A good group doesn't rely on luck, uses minimal consumables and has constant high performance.
In other words, a good group can farm an instance.
IMHO, it's all about efficiency and reliability. Time spent is one criteria, but not the only one. Resources spent are an another. Reliability is a third. A good group doesn't rely on luck, uses minimal consumables and has constant high performance.
In other words, a good group can farm an instance.
The warlock's Drain Life also counts as a heal, so my warlock usually ends up high in the healing received/healing done charts. During instance runs I tend to throw curses, lifetap, drain life to regain the loss in mana -and to trigger the Nightfall proc in the meantime. This produces a steady DPS (especially with curses on multiple mobs) with a very low downtime and saves the healer a lot of mana by trying to be selfsupporting.
Ofcourse this scenario doesn't apply to destuction specced warlocks. So a generic formula would be hard to determine.
A good tank can hold aggro, sustain a lot of damage and dealing damage is of secondary concern. So the equation X=D/H would make a tank that does the best job in keeping aggro, moving the mobs into the right position etc. etc. give him a low X factor while still being a good player.
So the whole bad player/good player cannot be read from a simple chart like this. You all recognise the players that know how to play their class or understand the generic game mechanics. Players damaging sheeped/sapped mobs might get high on the damagechart but aren't the ones one would label 'good player'. Examples like this are abundant.
Ofcourse this scenario doesn't apply to destuction specced warlocks. So a generic formula would be hard to determine.
A good tank can hold aggro, sustain a lot of damage and dealing damage is of secondary concern. So the equation X=D/H would make a tank that does the best job in keeping aggro, moving the mobs into the right position etc. etc. give him a low X factor while still being a good player.
So the whole bad player/good player cannot be read from a simple chart like this. You all recognise the players that know how to play their class or understand the generic game mechanics. Players damaging sheeped/sapped mobs might get high on the damagechart but aren't the ones one would label 'good player'. Examples like this are abundant.
# posted by : 21/3/07 11:42
: 21/3/07 11:42
Meter's are good but for their own purpose.
I don't believe in the whole "You need to be #1 on the damage meter" philosophy. Even though the vast majority of the time in 5 man grps I am. It's a game, not a competition.
Damage/Healing Meters are a good source of info when comparing different types/sets/pieces of armor/weapons or other equipment that you are adding to your character. They can identify, for you, which piece of equipment is better suited for your play style.
Meters in a grp type of situation are not relevant and should not be used. Actions speak louder than numbers :) Watching what the others are doing in the grp, how they act and when they act is far more important than the numbers on these meters.
I don't believe in the whole "You need to be #1 on the damage meter" philosophy. Even though the vast majority of the time in 5 man grps I am. It's a game, not a competition.
Damage/Healing Meters are a good source of info when comparing different types/sets/pieces of armor/weapons or other equipment that you are adding to your character. They can identify, for you, which piece of equipment is better suited for your play style.
Meters in a grp type of situation are not relevant and should not be used. Actions speak louder than numbers :) Watching what the others are doing in the grp, how they act and when they act is far more important than the numbers on these meters.
# posted by : 21/3/07 11:47
: 21/3/07 11:47
kinda reminds me of my tactic of colin mcrae games...
first hitting some trees so i get some damage, which lead to lower max speed.
this allowed me to put pedal to the metal without crashing too much ;)
first hitting some trees so i get some damage, which lead to lower max speed.
this allowed me to put pedal to the metal without crashing too much ;)
# posted by : 21/3/07 12:09
: 21/3/07 12:09
The best assesment for the performance of DPS classes is their position on the threat meter. This should be 3-5k threat behind the tank(s) and NEVER below the healer's threat. This ensures that the DPS classes are pulling their weight, and prevents an aggro wipe on a tank from immediately getting healers killed.
Damage Meters are very good for identifying issues with a group. For example, If any player has 40% of the damage done in a 5 man group, and doesnt have ubergear, the rest of the DPS is not doing their job. The same goes in 10 mans at 20% of damage done.
Damage Meters are very good for identifying issues with a group. For example, If any player has 40% of the damage done in a 5 man group, and doesnt have ubergear, the rest of the DPS is not doing their job. The same goes in 10 mans at 20% of damage done.
# posted by : 21/3/07 13:16
: 21/3/07 13:16
Additionally, don't forget the healings life tapping warlocks get (whether they need it or not, sometimes even). Particularly in good groups where the tank doesn't need that much healing, the warlock will get way more healing than needed, becuase downtime is lower like that.
Damage or healing meters only matter to DPS or healing classes. I'll take the above example of paladin, he was doing both damage, and spot healing. He isn't going to be high up on either end of the spectrum, just like a tank wouldn't. I don't think anyone with a brain would accuse this guy of not pulling he weight as long as the group did well.
Take on the mind set of a mage in a 5-man group with a rogue. They may not say anything, but they are in silent competition to be #1 on the damage meter. The rogue is obviously going to need more heals then a mage because of cleaves and what not. So the XY equation to determain how heal-effecient your DPS was, doesn't work. The mage has range, and might get smacked by a couple aoe shadow bolts, but generally will take very little damage unless they pull aggro. If your mage is consitantly pulling aggro then he is not a good mage, he is not valueable to the group, he may infact hinder your group, thats the bottom line. A rouge on the other hand, has plenty of aggro-management tools so it should never be an issue.
So when reviewing a damage meter first rule out anyone who consistantly pulled aggro. Then whoever is left on top wins. This shouldnt be an issue either because if you are pulling aggro you can't dps for very long anyways.
Healing is a different matter, thanks to over-healing. To get a good representation of heals you would just need to subtract one's over heals from their total heals.....then of course you have to realize that druids by nature overheal because their h-o-t's. Then again druids are all feral now so it doesn't matter.
even deeper bottom line....you can't judge anyone usefullness soley based on a meter, you need to group with people a few times and if the group works, it works, if it doesn't, kick the rogue out for pulling aggro, even though he didn't, your just pissed cuz his lock picking skill isn't high enough for chests in the outlands.
Take on the mind set of a mage in a 5-man group with a rogue. They may not say anything, but they are in silent competition to be #1 on the damage meter. The rogue is obviously going to need more heals then a mage because of cleaves and what not. So the XY equation to determain how heal-effecient your DPS was, doesn't work. The mage has range, and might get smacked by a couple aoe shadow bolts, but generally will take very little damage unless they pull aggro. If your mage is consitantly pulling aggro then he is not a good mage, he is not valueable to the group, he may infact hinder your group, thats the bottom line. A rouge on the other hand, has plenty of aggro-management tools so it should never be an issue.
So when reviewing a damage meter first rule out anyone who consistantly pulled aggro. Then whoever is left on top wins. This shouldnt be an issue either because if you are pulling aggro you can't dps for very long anyways.
Healing is a different matter, thanks to over-healing. To get a good representation of heals you would just need to subtract one's over heals from their total heals.....then of course you have to realize that druids by nature overheal because their h-o-t's. Then again druids are all feral now so it doesn't matter.
even deeper bottom line....you can't judge anyone usefullness soley based on a meter, you need to group with people a few times and if the group works, it works, if it doesn't, kick the rogue out for pulling aggro, even though he didn't, your just pissed cuz his lock picking skill isn't high enough for chests in the outlands.
I tend to judge good players from bad ones merely by the fact they are trying to improve whatever they need to do (Tank / DPS / heal / decurse / ...) and look for tools (add ons) to help them to so.
So, using DPSmeters can be really bad, but if you are a DPS class and do not know where you stand how will you know what to improve? Of course, if you take aggro from the tank all the time because you don't watch a threatmeter as well, that is useless.
Due to BC I had to respec my Shaman from Heal (which I loved but was not useful in 5 ppl instances) to an hybrid Elem / heal... and yes, I wanted to have a look at the DPS meter to know whether I stood the comparrison with DPS classes and was as useful to the group as I wanted to be.
Now, that is not enough to measure efficiency in a group (especially for an hybrid build)... a flash great heal at the right moment is key to make sure the tank survives, staying at the back to chain heal the group that is taking AIE is necessary, no meter sees whether I drop the right totem at the right moment...
But still, I'm trying, and I appreciate when I group with someone who actually tries to improve their jobs... that's a _good_ player for me, no matter what class or build :)
So, using DPSmeters can be really bad, but if you are a DPS class and do not know where you stand how will you know what to improve? Of course, if you take aggro from the tank all the time because you don't watch a threatmeter as well, that is useless.
Due to BC I had to respec my Shaman from Heal (which I loved but was not useful in 5 ppl instances) to an hybrid Elem / heal... and yes, I wanted to have a look at the DPS meter to know whether I stood the comparrison with DPS classes and was as useful to the group as I wanted to be.
Now, that is not enough to measure efficiency in a group (especially for an hybrid build)... a flash great heal at the right moment is key to make sure the tank survives, staying at the back to chain heal the group that is taking AIE is necessary, no meter sees whether I drop the right totem at the right moment...
But still, I'm trying, and I appreciate when I group with someone who actually tries to improve their jobs... that's a _good_ player for me, no matter what class or build :)
# posted by : 21/3/07 14:38
: 21/3/07 14:38
MinnaStats does something like Tobold's original idea -- Raid Worth meters (as well as Efficiency meters).
Check it out:
http://ui.worldofwar.net/ui.php?id=3500
Check it out:
http://ui.worldofwar.net/ui.php?id=3500
# posted by : 21/3/07 14:53
: 21/3/07 14:53
I've had groups where the dps person (mage/rogue/etc) was slacking ,and the damage meter was the way to make them pick it up. The shadow priest should not be smoking you on pure damage...
# posted by : 21/3/07 15:05
: 21/3/07 15:05
Damage meters ignore crowd control. Often I'm using Curse of Tongues on mob casters, Curse of Recklessness on runners, and Deathcoil on mobs attacking our priest. I can banish elementals, provide Blood Pact for the whole party, dish out Soulstones, and Healthstones. I often gimp my own damage and boost that of mages by applying Curse of Elements to mobs, rather than Curse of Agony or Curse of Doom. Damage Meters don't take any of this into account. Most often it seems to be
I am willing to gimp my own damage and raise that of the mages in the party by using Curse of the Elements.
Most often a Rogue will spam the damage meter results at the end of an instance, and yet, apart from the odd sap, a Rogue has nothing to do except provide DPS, and of course, he/she takes a lot more damage on average than a caster does, simply because they have to stand adjacent to the target.
The reason I use Damage Meters, as others have said, is to make sure I'm pulling my weight.
*Vlad*
I am willing to gimp my own damage and raise that of the mages in the party by using Curse of the Elements.
Most often a Rogue will spam the damage meter results at the end of an instance, and yet, apart from the odd sap, a Rogue has nothing to do except provide DPS, and of course, he/she takes a lot more damage on average than a caster does, simply because they have to stand adjacent to the target.
The reason I use Damage Meters, as others have said, is to make sure I'm pulling my weight.
*Vlad*
# posted by : 21/3/07 16:29
: 21/3/07 16:29
I don't see much point in having a damage meter, other than to possibly compare different options or builds of my own characters.
If people need statistics to evaluate if the members of the team is "doing their job" or "pulling their weight", then it is the wrong team to be in, IMHO.
It is about having fun. I'd rather have some people that might be so-and-so in terms of "efficiency" and enjoyable and nice to hang around with than someone that is "uber-efficient" but perhaps a PITA to have around.
People that are obnoxious and play bad can happen, but there is no need for any meters to detect that...
People that may play bad but are nice, one can talk to and perhaps change and improve the team experience to the enjoyment of everyone.
If people need statistics to evaluate if the members of the team is "doing their job" or "pulling their weight", then it is the wrong team to be in, IMHO.
It is about having fun. I'd rather have some people that might be so-and-so in terms of "efficiency" and enjoyable and nice to hang around with than someone that is "uber-efficient" but perhaps a PITA to have around.
People that are obnoxious and play bad can happen, but there is no need for any meters to detect that...
People that may play bad but are nice, one can talk to and perhaps change and improve the team experience to the enjoyment of everyone.
@0z
If your shadowpriest isn't top tier on the damage metres along with your warlocks, then you need to find better players. As things currently stand, shadowpriests and warlocks are the top dps classes in raid environments at 70, bar none.
If your shadowpriest isn't top tier on the damage metres along with your warlocks, then you need to find better players. As things currently stand, shadowpriests and warlocks are the top dps classes in raid environments at 70, bar none.
# posted by : 21/3/07 21:50
: 21/3/07 21:50
as a druid healer i've been having a long streak of bad luck in PUG's.
it took me almost a month to get the first part of the key to karazhan and that was because a group of friends, after killing murmur, called me into their group in order for me to loot the key...
as for the rest: i never managed to kill vorpil...
and it wen't so bad that now i doubt of my skill as a healer... was it my fault that despite using heals 4 ranks below the max i always got aggro, specially from mobs who just got out CC??? is it my fault that the tank loses HP so fast that my 9k mana pool gets drained on a group of trash? man...
i can't really evaluate my performance anymore... :(
it took me almost a month to get the first part of the key to karazhan and that was because a group of friends, after killing murmur, called me into their group in order for me to loot the key...
as for the rest: i never managed to kill vorpil...
and it wen't so bad that now i doubt of my skill as a healer... was it my fault that despite using heals 4 ranks below the max i always got aggro, specially from mobs who just got out CC??? is it my fault that the tank loses HP so fast that my 9k mana pool gets drained on a group of trash? man...
i can't really evaluate my performance anymore... :(
# posted by : 22/3/07 12:23
: 22/3/07 12:23
@anonymous: If you are pulling aggro from the tank, he should be good enough to pull it back off you, otherwise he sucks.
I've played with a 'Tree' healer a lot, and rarely does he get killed.
Your range DPSers should also be aware of whether you are taking aggro or not, but if they aren't, you need to call for help.
Everyone should know that if the healer dies, chances are your party will wipe. That's basic.
I've played with a 'Tree' healer a lot, and rarely does he get killed.
Your range DPSers should also be aware of whether you are taking aggro or not, but if they aren't, you need to call for help.
Everyone should know that if the healer dies, chances are your party will wipe. That's basic.
# posted by : 22/3/07 16:00
: 22/3/07 16:00
If they made a way to take the statistical information (dsp/healing done/ etc) and incorporate it into a efficiency rating for your class the meters would be overall more useful. As for the palidan healing done... That is a much more difficult one to moniter as you would need a way to sync with other peoples (healing done) and even that doesnt give proper credi back to he palidan for the amt of healing out of it.
The meters themselves break this game down to efficiencies in a more factoidal way which doesnt appeal to casual gamers (understandibly) however for a group trying to tighten up their 5 man heroic runs with specific strategies and specs and gear and etc, it becomes a very useful tool. Even just for the fact of the DPS can be broken down and scaled according to how long the instance took (this is useful if u run the same instance alot (which ppl do ! AMRITE! lol)) a dps meter still is a skewed statistic because there are simply too many variables to culminate into a single efficiency rating, at best this method is a mediocre rating.
WoW is becoming too predictable and simple with the addons- and imo, the addons have become a double edge. The features keep the game interesting for the people it would otehrwise consider "too hard" "too niche", but on the other hand make the game into a simple "push this button when it flashes" type of game require even less braincells than previously designed for.
Long story short- the addons are there for enhancement of gameplay, however in alot of cases it dumbs down the game greatly.
The meters themselves break this game down to efficiencies in a more factoidal way which doesnt appeal to casual gamers (understandibly) however for a group trying to tighten up their 5 man heroic runs with specific strategies and specs and gear and etc, it becomes a very useful tool. Even just for the fact of the DPS can be broken down and scaled according to how long the instance took (this is useful if u run the same instance alot (which ppl do ! AMRITE! lol)) a dps meter still is a skewed statistic because there are simply too many variables to culminate into a single efficiency rating, at best this method is a mediocre rating.
WoW is becoming too predictable and simple with the addons- and imo, the addons have become a double edge. The features keep the game interesting for the people it would otehrwise consider "too hard" "too niche", but on the other hand make the game into a simple "push this button when it flashes" type of game require even less braincells than previously designed for.
Long story short- the addons are there for enhancement of gameplay, however in alot of cases it dumbs down the game greatly.
I liked using various damage meter add-ons to track my own performance. I don't really consider them useful for evaluating other team members. Many fights are really friendly to one class over another. For instance, I did really well on the charts in KZ if we did Attumen, Moroes, and Opera since most of those bosses and trash pulls are very Hunter friendly. But Curator and his trash aren't Hunter friendly at all, especially if you're the flare tank so you end up in melee alot, and I ended up doing poorly on the nights we were learning that fight.
Except when you check DM in the middle of a failing 5-man and see that you, as a Hunter, did 65% of the total damage and you gave you pet more healing than the healer did total... But other than such extreme circumstances it's not all that useful for comparing classes.
"basically i think the best meter is how fast you clean out an instance since that takes into account everything."
Definitely.
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Except when you check DM in the middle of a failing 5-man and see that you, as a Hunter, did 65% of the total damage and you gave you pet more healing than the healer did total... But other than such extreme circumstances it's not all that useful for comparing classes.
"basically i think the best meter is how fast you clean out an instance since that takes into account everything."
Definitely.
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