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Thursday, October 04, 2007
Ancient history and thoughts on guilds
Once upon a time, long, long ago, in the late 90's when the internet still was young, I was playing Magic the Gathering. With cards, not online. But the place to be when online was the Magic Dojo (long dead, link is to an archive), where people discussed decks and wrote tournament reports. Probably the best writer there was Jamie Wakefield, whose tournament reports were so good he ended up publishing them as a book. And one day Jamie stopped writing about MtG, because he had found a new hobby: MMORPGs, or more specifically Asheron's Call.
The reason why people study history is that history constitutes the roots of the present and the future. Jamie Wakefield certainly has been an influence on me. I moved from Magic to MMORPGs a bit after him, and even later ended up as a blog writer. Blogs weren't even invented when Jamie wrote on the Dojo, but that was basically what he did back then already.
Thinking back about what Jamie wrote about Asheron's Call (can't find that post), I remember him enthusiastically telling about the AC allegiance system. I only played AC for a few days much, much later, and never experienced the system. But apparently it worked like this: New players could swear allegiance to experienced players. As a result of that, every time the new player gained experience, his patron would get some experience points too. And that could work in a pyramid, with the patron being the vassal of an even more advanced character. In return the more advanced players would look out for the new players, as it was in their own interest to get them geared up and leveling fast. Furthermore some abilities depended on the size and your rank inside an allegiance structure. Thus leaving an allegiance hurt both you and allegiance, which encouraged people to be nice to each other.
The comparison with how a guild in World of Warcraft works is striking. In WoW the more advanced players have not much incentive to help the less advanced guild members. And leaving the guild has no disadvantage at all for them. So guilds constantly break up or change, because it is easier to leave one guild and join a new guild with people who are as advanced as you than to try to gear up the less advanced players in your existing guild. I called that the Kleenex guild system once. You don't need a degree in social studies to see that the WoW system isn't exactly fostering long-term relationships and loyalties. There has been a distinctive backward development from AC to WoW in social game functions.
Now the AC allegiance system is one way to improve guilds, but certainly not the only one. It is easy to imagine other systems where being in a guild has other advantages than getting a raid slot. EQ2 has a less powerful system, where the guild gets 10% of all status points their members gain. I got recruited into a guild pretty quickly after I rejoined that game. But as far as I know the guild doesn't lose my contribution to status if I leave (unless I'm promoted to patron), so the guild isn't much more helpful to the newbies than a WoW guild is.
A good system would enable guilds to work together towards a common goal, regardless of level and gear (unlike WoW where the common goal is often the raid advancement, and that doesn't depend at all on the lower level guild members). The contribution of new players should be valuable, so the more advanced players would have an interest in helping the newbies. But even if the advanced players don't help much, the system should already reward players just for being part of a powerful guild, for example by giving them access to stuff based on guild level. Leaving a guild should have negative consequences for both the leaver and the guild, encouraging them to work out their differences instead of splitting. Guild membership should be an obvious advantage for everyone involved, with bonuses for loyalty and cooperation.
Unfortunately we are now in a period where new MMORPGs are heavily influenced by World of Warcraft. WoW set some standards, even in places where it is weak. The problem is that developers often don't really know what made WoW so successful, so they copy instead of risking innovation. I didn't read anything about any of the upcoming games that suggest a better approach to how a guild works than WoW has. You're lucky to get a guild chat channel, and that's it. For anything else: forums, event calendar, any sort of reward system, you'll have to rely on third-party software and the leadership of the guild officers. The time when developers learn that fostering loyalty to a guild equals fostering loyalty to the game is apparently still years ahead. What a pity!
- posted by Tobold @ 8:32 AM Permanent Link
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Whoa!
I'm speechless. Lovely post.
Amazing that a kind of a solution to all I have rambled about has been all the time in the history.
Now the real question is, how are we going to bring this idea of allegiance to the fair people of Blizzard, as it would certainly make it more interesting for the old players to coach the newcomers.
What do you mean I have my own interests involved? :P
Thanks, Tobold for addressing this need for more Guild centered thinking in WoW. And thanks for the nice ideas on how to improve the system, easily. I suppose Blizz could scrap the VoiP and concentrate on the community building and management tools instead.
Copra
I'm speechless. Lovely post.
Amazing that a kind of a solution to all I have rambled about has been all the time in the history.
Now the real question is, how are we going to bring this idea of allegiance to the fair people of Blizzard, as it would certainly make it more interesting for the old players to coach the newcomers.
What do you mean I have my own interests involved? :P
Thanks, Tobold for addressing this need for more Guild centered thinking in WoW. And thanks for the nice ideas on how to improve the system, easily. I suppose Blizz could scrap the VoiP and concentrate on the community building and management tools instead.
Copra
If we are going back in history anyway, we may as well go back to the simple world of Multi-User Dungeons of the 1980s and 1990s. These were online text adventures that were run in 99% of the cases by enthusiastic volunteers and totally free of charge. While there were plenty of crap games, there were also many really interesting ones. The lack of graphics also forced developers to come up with all sorts of innovations. Many of these MUDs had extensive guild support that makes for example WoW or nearly any other graphic MMORPG pale in comparison.
Now graphic MMORPG developers have taken some lessons from MUDs. When I saw EQ1 for the first time, it's text interface was completely that of a MUD - and a fairly mediocre example of it
It isn't that hard either. As pointed out it's about communal goals and sharing. A sense of loss if you aren't a part of it no more. A barrier to exit and most importantly reasons to log in and fool around without some loot carrot dangling all the time. At it's very basic level that requires a communal guild hall with worthwhile facilities, all of which a guild has to work hard for through completing quests, churning out mats, gold, whatever, before reaping benefits. Trophies in that hall if you have achieved notable things with the guild. Support for possible guild taxation, shared guild vaults/banks, if in a PvP environment the ability to place Wanted posters out on other guilds or individual players, etc etc.
One could counter that churning out ideas is the easy part. Implementation is a different thing. I don't totally disagree there, but what a game like WoW isn't even trying. I was a guild master of a successfully raiding guild pre-TBC and had about 4 buttons at my disposal to run the guild. Kick, invite, promote/demote and put a player not on someone. Unbelievably primitive.
I hold high hopes out for LOTRO. Guild functionality there is still rather mediocre, but at least they are working on stuff. Kinship halls are forthcoming in the upcoming player housing patch this month!
- Sveral
Now graphic MMORPG developers have taken some lessons from MUDs. When I saw EQ1 for the first time, it's text interface was completely that of a MUD - and a fairly mediocre example of it
It isn't that hard either. As pointed out it's about communal goals and sharing. A sense of loss if you aren't a part of it no more. A barrier to exit and most importantly reasons to log in and fool around without some loot carrot dangling all the time. At it's very basic level that requires a communal guild hall with worthwhile facilities, all of which a guild has to work hard for through completing quests, churning out mats, gold, whatever, before reaping benefits. Trophies in that hall if you have achieved notable things with the guild. Support for possible guild taxation, shared guild vaults/banks, if in a PvP environment the ability to place Wanted posters out on other guilds or individual players, etc etc.
One could counter that churning out ideas is the easy part. Implementation is a different thing. I don't totally disagree there, but what a game like WoW isn't even trying. I was a guild master of a successfully raiding guild pre-TBC and had about 4 buttons at my disposal to run the guild. Kick, invite, promote/demote and put a player not on someone. Unbelievably primitive.
I hold high hopes out for LOTRO. Guild functionality there is still rather mediocre, but at least they are working on stuff. Kinship halls are forthcoming in the upcoming player housing patch this month!
- Sveral
# posted by 
: 4/10/07 11:15
: 4/10/07 11:15
I feel the same, we had a kara run the other night and the guy lost the roll for the loot. After that he typed /gquit, easy as that and left.
Must it be that easy to leave?
Must it be that easy to leave?
# posted by : 4/10/07 12:02
: 4/10/07 12:02
Hate to sound like a broken record, but guilds in EVE (Cooperations) are the key to that game, and players take Corp reputation and loyalty very seriously. If you are in a corp, and most players are, almost everything you do is towards some corp goal, not a personal one.
Also, the AC system worked because back then it was almost impossible to max out your level, so getting more experience was always a plus. A system like that in WoW or other games would not work, as it is very easy to hit the max level solo.
Also, the AC system worked because back then it was almost impossible to max out your level, so getting more experience was always a plus. A system like that in WoW or other games would not work, as it is very easy to hit the max level solo.
# posted by : 4/10/07 14:47
: 4/10/07 14:47
LOL, Déjà vu... the Magic Dojo!
I even wrote a couple of humor articles for The Dojo back in the day...
I even wrote a couple of humor articles for The Dojo back in the day...
# posted by : 4/10/07 15:18
: 4/10/07 15:18
I can't see the problem with WoW's approach. It's hands off, as it should be. Why is it desirable that developers try and enforce guild loyalty in artificial ways?
People should stay loyal to a guild because they enjoy being in the guild, wether that is due to friendship or some other benefit. If guild leadership aren't capable of delivering an atmosphere that breeds loyalty there should be no penalty for going elsewhere.
People should stay loyal to a guild because they enjoy being in the guild, wether that is due to friendship or some other benefit. If guild leadership aren't capable of delivering an atmosphere that breeds loyalty there should be no penalty for going elsewhere.
# posted by : 4/10/07 15:37
: 4/10/07 15:37
Unfortunately great guild leaders are very rare. WoW only has a handful of great guilds, a good number of mediocre ones, and tons of guilds which have no apparent leadership at all. That is directly related to the fact that in WoW a guild has no apparent function at all. The guild = raiding analogy only exists in the head of the players. WoW guilds have no goals, points, status, or anything integrated into the game. There is no guild support for forums, calendars, or DKP points whatsoever. Building a great guild is hard work, and if you are given no tools, it's even harder.
I think n may have it right here. While I can certainly see why you might want to enforce altruism, it seems like the group quests and higher level dungeons are motive enough for some people to stay with a guild. As soon as you introduce barriers to entry/exit, you introduce market power. Suddenly a guild doesn't have to be cool, just have amassed the best stuff.
I'm not sure, in the end, I'm buying the premise that guilds = interaction between higher level characters and lower level characters. What about simply creating a reward system whereby a higher level character who is grouped with a lower level character gets some sort of reward as the lower level character advances? I'm not sure how it would work, exactly.
I'm not sure, in the end, I'm buying the premise that guilds = interaction between higher level characters and lower level characters. What about simply creating a reward system whereby a higher level character who is grouped with a lower level character gets some sort of reward as the lower level character advances? I'm not sure how it would work, exactly.
Building a great guild is hard work, and if you are given no tools, it's even harder.
I can agree that introducing some tools that you suggest would be beneficial for the game, such as forums, calendars and similar, "passive", tools. However systems tah are there too encourage players to remain in a ceertain guild have far too great a risk of backfiring.
Ease of leaving a guild provides, IMO, more positive incentives than negative. It ensures that guild leadership can't be too draconian and unfair, because then they will imediately start to bleed members. And guild members who jump ship as soon as they see the opportunity for better loot are maybe not the members you want to have locked into a predominatly friends and family guild. And why should a person suffer negative consequences if they left a powerful guild because they found the atmosphere growing unplesant and abusive?
Yes, maintaining a large guild can be hard, but why shouldn't it be?
I can agree that introducing some tools that you suggest would be beneficial for the game, such as forums, calendars and similar, "passive", tools. However systems tah are there too encourage players to remain in a ceertain guild have far too great a risk of backfiring.
Ease of leaving a guild provides, IMO, more positive incentives than negative. It ensures that guild leadership can't be too draconian and unfair, because then they will imediately start to bleed members. And guild members who jump ship as soon as they see the opportunity for better loot are maybe not the members you want to have locked into a predominatly friends and family guild. And why should a person suffer negative consequences if they left a powerful guild because they found the atmosphere growing unplesant and abusive?
Yes, maintaining a large guild can be hard, but why shouldn't it be?
# posted by : 4/10/07 16:35
: 4/10/07 16:35
@ N
It's because people are by nature selfish. Add that to the fact that you play a video game to advance your character. Then you have to consider in Wow just as in real life Good leaders are very rare.
The current Wow system or lack of system rewards the greedy Guild/server hopping loot whore far more than the layed back rock solid member of a guild who doesn't rock the boat and just take the good and bad in stride.
The last guild I left before I quit wow was shocked and horrified that I left. I don't know why. In 4 months they never once jumped in and helped me with any of my goals. After 4 months of playing the dutiful guild healer who was expected to put out anytime someone needed a healer I left.
Its a common problem in wow. The game is so loot centric and there is no reward for being noble friendly or helpful. People get burned out or frustrated because they keep seeing the guild hoppers and loot whores passing them up that they slowly become less and less willing to do anything for any one else. Which causes more problem as new people join your guild with the expectation that a "guild" is there to helpe its members.
And honestly Wow guilds are only there to help the A team.
It's because people are by nature selfish. Add that to the fact that you play a video game to advance your character. Then you have to consider in Wow just as in real life Good leaders are very rare.
The current Wow system or lack of system rewards the greedy Guild/server hopping loot whore far more than the layed back rock solid member of a guild who doesn't rock the boat and just take the good and bad in stride.
The last guild I left before I quit wow was shocked and horrified that I left. I don't know why. In 4 months they never once jumped in and helped me with any of my goals. After 4 months of playing the dutiful guild healer who was expected to put out anytime someone needed a healer I left.
Its a common problem in wow. The game is so loot centric and there is no reward for being noble friendly or helpful. People get burned out or frustrated because they keep seeing the guild hoppers and loot whores passing them up that they slowly become less and less willing to do anything for any one else. Which causes more problem as new people join your guild with the expectation that a "guild" is there to helpe its members.
And honestly Wow guilds are only there to help the A team.
How about guild honour points? You get honour points by helping lower level guildies with their quests - when they complete their quest, you get a point.
Guild honour points then give you pluses on your stats, so there's an incentive to help out lowbies.
The honour points would expire after a while, so you'd need to keep helping people out to keep your stats up - and if you leave the guild, your points go back to zero.
That's simplistic, I know, but some such scheme might work.
Guild honour points then give you pluses on your stats, so there's an incentive to help out lowbies.
The honour points would expire after a while, so you'd need to keep helping people out to keep your stats up - and if you leave the guild, your points go back to zero.
That's simplistic, I know, but some such scheme might work.
I think if they'd add some sort of guild factions, that every player contributed to by quests etc that would allow access to special vendors patterns etc. But for that to work you have to tie the use of the patterns and those rewards to the faction so if the guild broke up they'd lose all that stuff.
I think if everyone in the guild had the feeling that they were contributing to the "faction" of the guild it would go a long way for those poor people who come late and just get thrown the occasional bone by their burnt out frazzled A teams.
Most people just want to be valued and recognized. Unfortunately thiers only one way for that to happen in wow and not nearly enough raid teams to support them all.
I think if everyone in the guild had the feeling that they were contributing to the "faction" of the guild it would go a long way for those poor people who come late and just get thrown the occasional bone by their burnt out frazzled A teams.
Most people just want to be valued and recognized. Unfortunately thiers only one way for that to happen in wow and not nearly enough raid teams to support them all.
Having played both EQ2 and WoW for almost two years now (4 guilds total between them), it's a pleasure to read a post discussing an issue that has always been important to me. Really interesting to read about old-world AC and the concepts there.
I think what is missing in the WoW guild structure is a sense of *personal investment*. Someone above, I think it might have been Tobold actually, mentioned there should be barriers to leaving a guild. I don't believe such a barrier can exist as an overt, tangible thing, however there are ways to build something into the guild structure fabric itself that might create second thoughts before someone hits the /gquit.
In WoW, your connection to your guild is based on people. Period. Underneath the bluster of helping fellow guildies, the bottom line is that your guild is under no obligation to contribute something to you, and you are under no obligation to contribute anything to your guild. There are likely expectations of both, sure, but there is nothing about guilds in WoW that sets up a mutual contribution society.
The situation is arguably the same in EQ2, but only to a degree because in that MMO, the guild itself can advance and gain rewards, much like a character. In a guild that's hit level 20? You can get a faster horse or a title. In a guild that's hit level 40? You can be called Lord or Lady, and the guild cloak gets a snazzy border. This means that everyone else now knows your guild is rockin' too. Did I mention the server announcements when your guild hits a 10-spot? "The noble guild My Butt Rulez has attained level 50". Etc. Meaning that people who work to level a guild can a) take pride in its success, b) get to show it off, and c) earn guild-related rewards.
And those people can be any level. If your toon is 32 and you do a writ, it contributes to guild status & level. If your toon is 70 and you kill a raid mob for the first time, it contributes to guild status and level. The playing field is equaled so that everyone in the guild can feel like they are helping it to progress. This is what I mean by personal investment, beyond personal relationships. The guild takes on a limited life of its own, such that if you have contributed enough to it, you may think twice before bolting.
Mentoring, while not guild-related, allows higher level guildies to play with lower levels, without having to create a new toon or powerlevel outside of group. This is a huge advantage to fostering positive relationships with new recruits and giving people a reason to stay in a guild, or level up an alt in the same guild with ready assistance.
I'm not saying the EQ2 system is perfect, far from it. I'm also not saying that drama doesn't trump any kind of in game attempt at creating guild solidarity--in all MMOs, personal BS will cause people to leave/join/flirt/ninja/behave badly/have emo fits/whatever. But I do think having a guild structure that encourages contribution and provides REWARDS, which really is what everyone is about, goes a very long way.
I think what is missing in the WoW guild structure is a sense of *personal investment*. Someone above, I think it might have been Tobold actually, mentioned there should be barriers to leaving a guild. I don't believe such a barrier can exist as an overt, tangible thing, however there are ways to build something into the guild structure fabric itself that might create second thoughts before someone hits the /gquit.
In WoW, your connection to your guild is based on people. Period. Underneath the bluster of helping fellow guildies, the bottom line is that your guild is under no obligation to contribute something to you, and you are under no obligation to contribute anything to your guild. There are likely expectations of both, sure, but there is nothing about guilds in WoW that sets up a mutual contribution society.
The situation is arguably the same in EQ2, but only to a degree because in that MMO, the guild itself can advance and gain rewards, much like a character. In a guild that's hit level 20? You can get a faster horse or a title. In a guild that's hit level 40? You can be called Lord or Lady, and the guild cloak gets a snazzy border. This means that everyone else now knows your guild is rockin' too. Did I mention the server announcements when your guild hits a 10-spot? "The noble guild My Butt Rulez has attained level 50". Etc. Meaning that people who work to level a guild can a) take pride in its success, b) get to show it off, and c) earn guild-related rewards.
And those people can be any level. If your toon is 32 and you do a writ, it contributes to guild status & level. If your toon is 70 and you kill a raid mob for the first time, it contributes to guild status and level. The playing field is equaled so that everyone in the guild can feel like they are helping it to progress. This is what I mean by personal investment, beyond personal relationships. The guild takes on a limited life of its own, such that if you have contributed enough to it, you may think twice before bolting.
Mentoring, while not guild-related, allows higher level guildies to play with lower levels, without having to create a new toon or powerlevel outside of group. This is a huge advantage to fostering positive relationships with new recruits and giving people a reason to stay in a guild, or level up an alt in the same guild with ready assistance.
I'm not saying the EQ2 system is perfect, far from it. I'm also not saying that drama doesn't trump any kind of in game attempt at creating guild solidarity--in all MMOs, personal BS will cause people to leave/join/flirt/ninja/behave badly/have emo fits/whatever. But I do think having a guild structure that encourages contribution and provides REWARDS, which really is what everyone is about, goes a very long way.
# posted by : 4/10/07 20:16
: 4/10/07 20:16
Guilds in WoW are not much more than the provision of a shared chat channel in green text. The value add to the guild member is easier, repeatable access to a user base and not much more.
Most of the guild value-add takes place outside of the game in the form of guild forums, shared calendars and established guild goals centered around raiding. Would be nice if Blizzard added some in-game value to being guilded aside from chat like the XP models you describe in AC.
Most of the guild value-add takes place outside of the game in the form of guild forums, shared calendars and established guild goals centered around raiding. Would be nice if Blizzard added some in-game value to being guilded aside from chat like the XP models you describe in AC.
After raiding guilds in EQ & Wow, I"m so turned off & burnt out I plan on playing AoC & WAR guildless just to keep away from the ding kiddies.
# posted by : 4/10/07 22:37
: 4/10/07 22:37
I wouldn't like forced guild participation. But I think WoW would be better for the guild if they added guild tools as Tobold suggests, and a penalty in the form of a debuff for leaving/losing their guild.
For leaving a guild, you get a one month tag of "deserter". For being kicked from a guild, the guild members get 2 days to vote on whether they deserved it. Each vote adds a certain number of days, not to exceed a set maximum amount, that flags that player as "abandoned". This tag cannot be turned off in the interface, and during this period you are unable to join a guild.
I think that would be enough to keep things fairly open ended, but give pause to spitefull /gquits.
For leaving a guild, you get a one month tag of "deserter". For being kicked from a guild, the guild members get 2 days to vote on whether they deserved it. Each vote adds a certain number of days, not to exceed a set maximum amount, that flags that player as "abandoned". This tag cannot be turned off in the interface, and during this period you are unable to join a guild.
I think that would be enough to keep things fairly open ended, but give pause to spitefull /gquits.
# posted by : 4/10/07 23:23
: 4/10/07 23:23
As someone who's been through the AC pyramid system of mentoring guildies, I feel that that is something that is really missing in WoW. Practically everyone in my Asheron's Call 2 guild could trace their relationships to each other, all the way from the recent guild member to the guild master. The community of AC2, by the way, is still going strong, 18 months after the servers were closed. That says something about that system of guilding.
I think guild housing would be a good start to creating a proper guild community. Access to the guild bank would require guild points which could be attributed however the guildmaster feels it should be - whether it is raiding points or helping lower levels or best person of the day...
I would also like the idea that guilds could either create their own housing or join up with other guilds to create castles that would create "allied" channels that would foster community within the game.
I think guild housing would be a good start to creating a proper guild community. Access to the guild bank would require guild points which could be attributed however the guildmaster feels it should be - whether it is raiding points or helping lower levels or best person of the day...
I would also like the idea that guilds could either create their own housing or join up with other guilds to create castles that would create "allied" channels that would foster community within the game.
I believe I was the first to bring exit barriers into the discussion. Yet I feel some people misunderstood my intentions, as they visualized all sorts of penalties to punish those who dare type /gquit.
I was actually thinking more of intangible exit barriers and tools to promote those. Such barriers are mainly created by being part of a community. Having the right tools and incentives in place to foster communities is invaluable. WoW has none whatsoever, other than guild invite, guild kick, promote, demote, add player note and add guild note. All the rest you have to come up with yourself through external tools and most if not all of these efforts are going to be about loot. Which creates a rather undesirable selfish atmosphere. What's more simple than a communal guild hall you can buy/construct/maintain with your guilders and in which the trophies of the past are displayed? Onyxia's head on display promimently in the center court yard, with a plaque on which date your guild first took her down. It would give any new joiner the sense of history of an old guild and share in the pride to be part of it as they walk through that courtyard. My most fond memory of WoW is still the weekend in which we both took down Onyxia and Ragnaros for the first time and a guilder made a movie of us celebrating in Ogrimmar, with the whole guild standing under Onyxia's head partying. This is just one simple example to let you visualize what I'm after.
Never underestimate how much people look for a sense of belonging, of being part of a bigger thing. No such barriers to exit make people leave over the most stupid of things, such as not getting a piece of loot or not being invited one day.
I also noticed how a lot of people talk about good and bad guild leaders. I find this far too easy. Of course good guild leadership is welcome. But even the best of guild leaders often can't handle the tide brought onto them by some of WoW's most horrible people. I led a successful hardcore WoW raiding guild for a long time and found that everyone agreed there should be fair rules. But once you made them, most people also felt they should apply to others only and they should be treated as special cases. And if they weren't treated as special cases, they'd go ballistic. The stuff I experienced as a guild leader I could write a book about. People who would grab three epics on a raid in one day, then a day later announce they were taking a six month hiatus to focus on school. People who would join the guild under all sorts of premises, taught all encounters in the instances we visited and two weeks later type /gquit saying "It was great to get to see all this content, now I'm off to do PvP again, thanks all!"
The latter is relevant also to the discussion for exit barriers. For even if they would be a bit more harsh and you'd actually lose something (like access to superior crafting) if you /gquit, where's the real problem in this? Maybe it's good to all sacrifice some of our personal freedom for a sense of belonging and community. All the unbridled free-for-all is fostering the loot-whoring disloyal environment out there. Plus if you do end up in a bad spot in a bad guild, you can still type /gquit. It's not like having no access to superior crafting facilities or something is going to keep you from leaving such a bad position.
Once again an example. One of the strict rules in my old guild was that you had to be on time for a raid. If not, there were consequences, such as minus DKP or not raiding that night. Yeah, pretty harsh. But here's the catch. When asked about the number 1 frustration of everyone, they always cited the long time it took to start a raid. But once you had strict rules in place, some of these same people would show up late and go ballistic if there were consequences. At the end of the day, consequences made all of our raids start much quicker and people loved that. Similar with exit barriers if you ask me.
You can't battle loot-whoring guild hoppers without putting some restraints on them. For else they hold everyone else hostage. You also can't fault poor guild leadership for all of a game's shortcomings. Through a combination of luck and leadership skills some people will still be able to create good guilds. But there would have been tons more in a better supported environment.
- Sveral
I was actually thinking more of intangible exit barriers and tools to promote those. Such barriers are mainly created by being part of a community. Having the right tools and incentives in place to foster communities is invaluable. WoW has none whatsoever, other than guild invite, guild kick, promote, demote, add player note and add guild note. All the rest you have to come up with yourself through external tools and most if not all of these efforts are going to be about loot. Which creates a rather undesirable selfish atmosphere. What's more simple than a communal guild hall you can buy/construct/maintain with your guilders and in which the trophies of the past are displayed? Onyxia's head on display promimently in the center court yard, with a plaque on which date your guild first took her down. It would give any new joiner the sense of history of an old guild and share in the pride to be part of it as they walk through that courtyard. My most fond memory of WoW is still the weekend in which we both took down Onyxia and Ragnaros for the first time and a guilder made a movie of us celebrating in Ogrimmar, with the whole guild standing under Onyxia's head partying. This is just one simple example to let you visualize what I'm after.
Never underestimate how much people look for a sense of belonging, of being part of a bigger thing. No such barriers to exit make people leave over the most stupid of things, such as not getting a piece of loot or not being invited one day.
I also noticed how a lot of people talk about good and bad guild leaders. I find this far too easy. Of course good guild leadership is welcome. But even the best of guild leaders often can't handle the tide brought onto them by some of WoW's most horrible people. I led a successful hardcore WoW raiding guild for a long time and found that everyone agreed there should be fair rules. But once you made them, most people also felt they should apply to others only and they should be treated as special cases. And if they weren't treated as special cases, they'd go ballistic. The stuff I experienced as a guild leader I could write a book about. People who would grab three epics on a raid in one day, then a day later announce they were taking a six month hiatus to focus on school. People who would join the guild under all sorts of premises, taught all encounters in the instances we visited and two weeks later type /gquit saying "It was great to get to see all this content, now I'm off to do PvP again, thanks all!"
The latter is relevant also to the discussion for exit barriers. For even if they would be a bit more harsh and you'd actually lose something (like access to superior crafting) if you /gquit, where's the real problem in this? Maybe it's good to all sacrifice some of our personal freedom for a sense of belonging and community. All the unbridled free-for-all is fostering the loot-whoring disloyal environment out there. Plus if you do end up in a bad spot in a bad guild, you can still type /gquit. It's not like having no access to superior crafting facilities or something is going to keep you from leaving such a bad position.
Once again an example. One of the strict rules in my old guild was that you had to be on time for a raid. If not, there were consequences, such as minus DKP or not raiding that night. Yeah, pretty harsh. But here's the catch. When asked about the number 1 frustration of everyone, they always cited the long time it took to start a raid. But once you had strict rules in place, some of these same people would show up late and go ballistic if there were consequences. At the end of the day, consequences made all of our raids start much quicker and people loved that. Similar with exit barriers if you ask me.
You can't battle loot-whoring guild hoppers without putting some restraints on them. For else they hold everyone else hostage. You also can't fault poor guild leadership for all of a game's shortcomings. Through a combination of luck and leadership skills some people will still be able to create good guilds. But there would have been tons more in a better supported environment.
- Sveral
# posted by : 5/10/07 03:36
: 5/10/07 03:36
IMHO there shouldn't be a punishment for leaving a Guild, instead the staying should be more rewarding.
In some text based game the guild can build a relic or totem, which grants the whole guild specific benefits. This could be easily added to the game, so that you would get clear stat benefit from being in a guild.
This benefit could be connected to the allegiance points accumulating from helping low level players levelling... and I mean players as it would be too easy to go into alt frenzy.
There are very good ideas in this post and commentaries, and I wish that someone from the Blue would take them seriously. If they ever come across this blog...
Hopefully they do!
Copra
In some text based game the guild can build a relic or totem, which grants the whole guild specific benefits. This could be easily added to the game, so that you would get clear stat benefit from being in a guild.
This benefit could be connected to the allegiance points accumulating from helping low level players levelling... and I mean players as it would be too easy to go into alt frenzy.
There are very good ideas in this post and commentaries, and I wish that someone from the Blue would take them seriously. If they ever come across this blog...
Hopefully they do!
Copra
Punishment is maybe a bad word here. The idea is that you get some benefit for not only being in a guild, but also for having contributed to the well-being of that guild. If you leave and join a new guild, you lose that contribution benefit until you built up a new contribution to the new guild. And you old guild also loses the benefit of your contribution.
I prefer to call it a barrier to exit. You need to be aware that hopping from one guild to the next isn't the optimum strategy. Both the guild and the member should be encouraged to work out differences before quitting / kicking out people.
I prefer to call it a barrier to exit. You need to be aware that hopping from one guild to the next isn't the optimum strategy. Both the guild and the member should be encouraged to work out differences before quitting / kicking out people.
True words, Tobold. Do you want to put up a petition for people to undersign so that can be delivered to Blizzard to correct some basic issues on their cash cow?
:D
I resent the idea of Guild hoppers and IMHO there should be some sort of stigmata on those: I have already encountered some players whose toons switch from Guild to Guild at the rate in which normal people change their socks...
Copra
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:D
I resent the idea of Guild hoppers and IMHO there should be some sort of stigmata on those: I have already encountered some players whose toons switch from Guild to Guild at the rate in which normal people change their socks...
Copra
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