www.Tobold.com
Tobold@GMail.com
A blog with my thoughts regarding games I am playing and other stuff in life. Please read my Terms of Service
RSS Feed
Friday, November 16, 2007
The triviality of MMORPGs
Imagine a game of chess or a game with similar rules: a board with pieces that can only move according to strict rules. Now we make this game multiplayer online, and add another rule to it: if you move a piece in a wrong way, you lose that piece and your turn. Also the rules on how to move the pieces aren't written down anywhere. This makes the game hard for newbies, who have to learn the rules by their mistakes. Experienced players have an advantage of knowing all there is to know. And of course soon there are websites with "guides" telling you which moves are legal and which aren't. Now the producer of this game patches the user interface of this game: Every time you touch a piece, all the spots on the board that piece can go to light up. This change makes the game far more accessible to newbies, but the experienced players lose their advantage and complain about the game having been "dumbed down". Welcome to the big "dumbing down" debate that has been making the rounds of the MMORPG blogosphere in the last days.
The reason why I used a chess example is that the dumbing down debate touches several different MMORPGs. On the one side there are people just talking about World of Warcraft, and how patch 2.3 dumbed it down by making it easier to find quests (via the mini map) and quest items, which now sparkle. One of my earliest blog post successes which got thousands of hits over time, on "hidden quests" in WoW is becoming much less relevant now. On the other side there is a debate on whether games like EVE and EQ2, which withhold a lot more information about how the game works from their players are more "intelligent" than WoW. I absolutely love the little image on Keen and Graev's blog entry on the issue, stating that time doesn't equal difficulty. Making things like travel or death more time consuming doesn't really make a game more challenging, it only makes it more annoying.
For the game of chess, hiding the rules to make the game more challenging is stupid. Giving the players full access to all the information they need to play the game lets them concentrate on the actual strategy. Chess is a deep and complex game that doesn't need artificial "challenge" in the form of forcing people to try out how the game actually works. But is the same really true about MMORPGs? For me the real core of the "dumbing down" debate is what remains of the genre once we removed all the artificial obstacles. If it is easy to find all the quest givers, and it is easy to find the quest objectives on the map without using a third-party website, are MMORPGs maybe too trivial?
As far as solo PvE is concerned, I must say that MMORPGs are trivial. And I'm not just talking about WoW, a solo quest to kill 10 foozles isn't any more challenging in Vanguard, EQ2, LotRO or many other similar games. Once you found the foozles, there isn't much challenge in killing them, as long as the encounter has been designed for solo accessibility. The reason why people confuse time requirement with difficulty is that the amount of tactical skill and decision making required in a MMORPG is tiny. And in most cases playing better just means achieving your goals faster. Even the dumbest and slowest player can finish the solo quest, he just needs a bit more time than the most clever player. If intelligent gameplay just means achieving your goals faster, then time becomes the only obstacle and challenge.
I think that World of Warcraft is moving the genre in the right direction by making MMORPGs more user-friendly and layer by layer stripping away the need to gather information from websites outside the game. It is the right direction because it leads to a necessary next step: making the underlying game more tactical, challenging, and interesting. Not more twitchy, I don't think that is the right way to add challenge to a MMORPG in view of the genre's demographics. But there are lots of ways in which combat could be made less repetitive, more interactive, and requiring more tactical skills, decision making and intelligence. We might need this "dumbing down" phase to get to a "clevering up" phase afterwards.
- posted by Tobold @ 8:02 AM Permanent Link
Comments:
<< Home
Newer› ‹Older
Compare a MMOPG to the "old fashioned" adventure games. The mystery, the intrigue that is an adventure game results exactly from not knowing how to solve a ridde. But, you know how the basic inventory & parser (Use X with Y) works. Some adventures give on a key press a clue on the items within a romm you can investigate / use.
With MMOs, that result from fantasy games, the message is slightly different. As you, Tobold, play P&P games, you know that the "game master" usually is the person who is best informed about the rules (e.g. combat movement, tests against attributes/skills etc.). But, if you wanted to, you could read all the rules in the game master rulebook.
Part of the mystery, of the intrigue of a game is "not knowing what lays beyond the next hill". Once you equip yourself with guides, interactive maps etc. you start to spoil your game experience as unraveling the mystery is part of the game. In LOTRO I always like it when I stumble upon a hidden NPC, event though the ring symbol on the minimap (guess where WOW got the idea from?) indicates: Quest giver.
As you can see, I am torn between two worlds here. Adventure-like gaming, where you are happy, when you have solved the riddle and modern MMOs which tell you go there and still some pesky people ask for 'coords' as they are simply too lazy to investigate themselves.
With MMOs, that result from fantasy games, the message is slightly different. As you, Tobold, play P&P games, you know that the "game master" usually is the person who is best informed about the rules (e.g. combat movement, tests against attributes/skills etc.). But, if you wanted to, you could read all the rules in the game master rulebook.
Part of the mystery, of the intrigue of a game is "not knowing what lays beyond the next hill". Once you equip yourself with guides, interactive maps etc. you start to spoil your game experience as unraveling the mystery is part of the game. In LOTRO I always like it when I stumble upon a hidden NPC, event though the ring symbol on the minimap (guess where WOW got the idea from?) indicates: Quest giver.
As you can see, I am torn between two worlds here. Adventure-like gaming, where you are happy, when you have solved the riddle and modern MMOs which tell you go there and still some pesky people ask for 'coords' as they are simply too lazy to investigate themselves.
This "dumbing down" statement always comes from a very certain demographic: people with lots of time. Sure it was nice to seek out NPCs for hours in EQ seven years ago, when i was your average student, with too much time, time to do such obsolete tasks.
As you wrote MMORPGs are trivial, monkeys can play them, that's why the genre is so successfull, people like easy games.
What WoW made more accessible are all the things that never were "hard", but inaccessible and kept the mass audience away. Hiding Q-NPCs on the minimap doesn't make it harder, it just lengthen the time it takes to do your virtual chores.
The UI in general took a huge step forward with 2.3, again they introduced a lot of upcoming standards for future UIs, because they make sense and just work, not because they "dumb down" the experience, but cause they enhance it.
As you wrote MMORPGs are trivial, monkeys can play them, that's why the genre is so successfull, people like easy games.
What WoW made more accessible are all the things that never were "hard", but inaccessible and kept the mass audience away. Hiding Q-NPCs on the minimap doesn't make it harder, it just lengthen the time it takes to do your virtual chores.
The UI in general took a huge step forward with 2.3, again they introduced a lot of upcoming standards for future UIs, because they make sense and just work, not because they "dumb down" the experience, but cause they enhance it.
# posted by 
: 16/11/07 10:03
: 16/11/07 10:03
It's funny because I know that i'm pretty alone when I say this, but... WoW isn't easy or dumb. Well some of it at least.
The main thing about TBC is that it has stepped up difficulty from Vanilla. Even when you enter hellfile peninsula, the trash there will see-saw wider paths and be denser (increases add chances), the zone already has one of those dangerous high level roamers demanding extra attention. Some quests (like the underneath cave near the felhound-goblin, Alliance-side) is hard to solo for some classes due to the respawn speed and hence the need to clear both safely and efficiently with the cave containing roamers again to make this a challange.
One of the main things I noticed in TBC is that there are more regions where you simply cannot find a way to go AFK anymore if you needed. Again hellfire peninsula, you go to the arakkoa post in the northeast. In that area mobs are fairly dangerous for your level. The birds have very high hitpoints for their level. No roamers, but densely packs with runners. Well there is one roamer who is a quest-mob (drops the quest). If you are busy in there and cannot stealth you will be hard pressed to go AFK because respawns will eat you very soon.
WoW instancing would usually mean: Kill everything. But heroic Durnholde introduces unkillable patrols adding a splinter-cell like avoid and watch component to the instance.
WoW is good because it isn't constantly hard. I have had lots of criticism for TBC but difficulty tuning up to heroic 5-man was always pretty good.
The main thing about TBC is that it has stepped up difficulty from Vanilla. Even when you enter hellfile peninsula, the trash there will see-saw wider paths and be denser (increases add chances), the zone already has one of those dangerous high level roamers demanding extra attention. Some quests (like the underneath cave near the felhound-goblin, Alliance-side) is hard to solo for some classes due to the respawn speed and hence the need to clear both safely and efficiently with the cave containing roamers again to make this a challange.
One of the main things I noticed in TBC is that there are more regions where you simply cannot find a way to go AFK anymore if you needed. Again hellfire peninsula, you go to the arakkoa post in the northeast. In that area mobs are fairly dangerous for your level. The birds have very high hitpoints for their level. No roamers, but densely packs with runners. Well there is one roamer who is a quest-mob (drops the quest). If you are busy in there and cannot stealth you will be hard pressed to go AFK because respawns will eat you very soon.
WoW instancing would usually mean: Kill everything. But heroic Durnholde introduces unkillable patrols adding a splinter-cell like avoid and watch component to the instance.
WoW is good because it isn't constantly hard. I have had lots of criticism for TBC but difficulty tuning up to heroic 5-man was always pretty good.
# posted by : 16/11/07 10:46
: 16/11/07 10:46
The armory does exactly the opposite of what you propose.
It reveals, in disappointing detail, everything you want to know about your enemy in PvP.
It reveals, in disappointing detail, everything you want to know about your enemy in PvP.
# posted by : 16/11/07 11:23
: 16/11/07 11:23
So we need to avoid harassing the player with dumb things as searching forever for a quest-npc and need to add a new layer of deepness to the game.
Now the question is.. how could that new layer of combat challenge look?
One actual answer is: Make combat more action style, let the player control every offensive or defensive swing of his sword. I'm not sure if I'm very happy with this answer..
Now the question is.. how could that new layer of combat challenge look?
One actual answer is: Make combat more action style, let the player control every offensive or defensive swing of his sword. I'm not sure if I'm very happy with this answer..
# posted by : 16/11/07 12:25
: 16/11/07 12:25
WoW is a game.
Games are (supposedly!) to have fun.
Time spent looking around for quests or trying to find that hard to spot herb that you can see on minimap but have to zoom minimap to the fullest, position yourself carefully and even then have trouble finding the herb, those things, in my book, are NOT fun, just plain time consuming.
So, as you'd guess, I'm 110% in favor of those things! Now, had they changed it so you can 1-shot every mob in the game, I'd be out of here PRONTO!
But why should some things be a "pain"? Finding an NPC who can repair is now a click away when it used to either require you remembering or looking around for quite a while. Dumber? Maybe, but gets the job done faster and thus you can use the remaining time to have fun instead of spending it trying to find a repair NPC!
You can now mail a dozen items at once: good move, only missing is a "take all" from the receiving side! Maybe in 2.4!
And the "Wanted posters" that I constantly missed? I found one that I had NEVER seen on any of my chars and had been in there for quite a few times! Good move: I want to do quests, not dig under every rock to see if there is a quest giver there! Sure, there was some thrill in discovering that NPC in Rutheran Village "hidden" on the 2nd floor that would give you a 50ish quest when you would no longer be around that place for way too many decades of levels, but I like it more now: makes casual players enjoy more the game, and even if I play nearly every night, I still consider myself a casual player due to both time restrictions and playing alts instead of raiding... :)
Games are (supposedly!) to have fun.
Time spent looking around for quests or trying to find that hard to spot herb that you can see on minimap but have to zoom minimap to the fullest, position yourself carefully and even then have trouble finding the herb, those things, in my book, are NOT fun, just plain time consuming.
So, as you'd guess, I'm 110% in favor of those things! Now, had they changed it so you can 1-shot every mob in the game, I'd be out of here PRONTO!
But why should some things be a "pain"? Finding an NPC who can repair is now a click away when it used to either require you remembering or looking around for quite a while. Dumber? Maybe, but gets the job done faster and thus you can use the remaining time to have fun instead of spending it trying to find a repair NPC!
You can now mail a dozen items at once: good move, only missing is a "take all" from the receiving side! Maybe in 2.4!
And the "Wanted posters" that I constantly missed? I found one that I had NEVER seen on any of my chars and had been in there for quite a few times! Good move: I want to do quests, not dig under every rock to see if there is a quest giver there! Sure, there was some thrill in discovering that NPC in Rutheran Village "hidden" on the 2nd floor that would give you a 50ish quest when you would no longer be around that place for way too many decades of levels, but I like it more now: makes casual players enjoy more the game, and even if I play nearly every night, I still consider myself a casual player due to both time restrictions and playing alts instead of raiding... :)
# posted by : 16/11/07 12:41
: 16/11/07 12:41
I just started playing EVE and certainly wouldn't say that it withholds information. The new player guide is very helpful and the early missions are designed to teach you the ins and outs. My understanding is they have completely redesigned these, so I don't know what it was like before.
Also, I think the analogy is a bit of a stretch. It would be better if it worked like this:
WoW/Easy Game = Push a button, watch the chess pieces move, if you have done this enough times you will win. After doing this enough you can't win without getting 29 other people to push the button with you.
;-)
Also, I think the analogy is a bit of a stretch. It would be better if it worked like this:
WoW/Easy Game = Push a button, watch the chess pieces move, if you have done this enough times you will win. After doing this enough you can't win without getting 29 other people to push the button with you.
;-)
Chess was a bit of a bad example, especially mentioning 'touching a piece and having the places it can move light up' because a bit part of Chess is observation, awareness and forethought. You can have a great strategy, but if you miss one thing, it can mean a loss. One small thing your opponent did, which you didn't see could cost you the game.
MMOs do have instructions, heck, in the last few I've played I gotten annoyed at all the pop up tip windows and help/hover text getting in the way of things. The problem is that no one really pays a lot of attention to them.
Also, the desire to solo and increasing availability of solo content makes it feel more like you're on your own to learn the game when you're not. The sense of "need to learn on my own" is self inflicted (as are most things people dislike in MMOs).
Join a guild, be social, ask questions. When you're playing Chess, you're not playing it alone (unless you like computer opponents). You're likely playing it with a friend who is teaching you the rules. You don't decide to join a Chess tournament without knowing how to play Chess then expect your opponent to teach you the game.
"And I'm not just talking about WoW, a solo quest to kill 10 foozles isn't any more challenging in Vanguard, EQ2, LotRO or many other similar games. Once you found the foozles, there isn't much challenge in killing them, as long as the encounter has been designed for solo accessibility."
I do agree with that. A lot of the problem with 'challenge' in existing games is that the mob AI is so simple. The mobs aren't the challenge so much as resource management - keeping the health bars up enough to reduce the mob's health bar (there is little more too it than that).
MMOs do have instructions, heck, in the last few I've played I gotten annoyed at all the pop up tip windows and help/hover text getting in the way of things. The problem is that no one really pays a lot of attention to them.
Also, the desire to solo and increasing availability of solo content makes it feel more like you're on your own to learn the game when you're not. The sense of "need to learn on my own" is self inflicted (as are most things people dislike in MMOs).
Join a guild, be social, ask questions. When you're playing Chess, you're not playing it alone (unless you like computer opponents). You're likely playing it with a friend who is teaching you the rules. You don't decide to join a Chess tournament without knowing how to play Chess then expect your opponent to teach you the game.
"And I'm not just talking about WoW, a solo quest to kill 10 foozles isn't any more challenging in Vanguard, EQ2, LotRO or many other similar games. Once you found the foozles, there isn't much challenge in killing them, as long as the encounter has been designed for solo accessibility."
I do agree with that. A lot of the problem with 'challenge' in existing games is that the mob AI is so simple. The mobs aren't the challenge so much as resource management - keeping the health bars up enough to reduce the mob's health bar (there is little more too it than that).
"I think that World of Warcraft is moving the genre in the right direction by making MMORPGs more user-friendly and layer by layer stripping away the need to gather information from websites outside the game."
I'm not quite sure how wow is "moving the genre in the right direction". I mean, it's doing what it has always done, ripped ideas from other mmos (in this case Guild wars for quest icons in the map and Lotro for flashing quest icons) and placed them into thier own application. Once again, people confuse wow's imitation for innovation.
I'm not quite sure how wow is "moving the genre in the right direction". I mean, it's doing what it has always done, ripped ideas from other mmos (in this case Guild wars for quest icons in the map and Lotro for flashing quest icons) and placed them into thier own application. Once again, people confuse wow's imitation for innovation.
# posted by : 16/11/07 17:20
: 16/11/07 17:20
Isn't it possible that we are making a mistake when we discuss MMO's as their own genre?
It's kind of like discussing video games as a "genre". We play games, we know that things are more complicated than that. You've got RPGs, FPSs, RTSs, Sports games, etc. When others lump them together there is a tendency to get upset.
However, with MMOs we all just sort of accept that yes, they are a genre. Why can't they be very different also? I think statements like "WoW moves the genre in the right direction" are part of the problem, as if MMOs should be some gigantic zeitgeist. Variety is not a bad thing, and there is enough subscription money to be made for lots of these games to do just fine.
I don't think it is intentional on anyone's part anymore, it's just so ingrained in us that we are starting to miss the point. If someone told me they liked Starcraft and I told them they were an idiot because Diablo is better... well that would be pretty silly wouldn't it? We all recognize them as very different games.
Maybe we need to start doing that with MMOs. In fact, maybe the label "MMO" is part of the problem.
Post a Comment
It's kind of like discussing video games as a "genre". We play games, we know that things are more complicated than that. You've got RPGs, FPSs, RTSs, Sports games, etc. When others lump them together there is a tendency to get upset.
However, with MMOs we all just sort of accept that yes, they are a genre. Why can't they be very different also? I think statements like "WoW moves the genre in the right direction" are part of the problem, as if MMOs should be some gigantic zeitgeist. Variety is not a bad thing, and there is enough subscription money to be made for lots of these games to do just fine.
I don't think it is intentional on anyone's part anymore, it's just so ingrained in us that we are starting to miss the point. If someone told me they liked Starcraft and I told them they were an idiot because Diablo is better... well that would be pretty silly wouldn't it? We all recognize them as very different games.
Maybe we need to start doing that with MMOs. In fact, maybe the label "MMO" is part of the problem.
<< Home
