Maybe it's Rogues that should be worried.
 

Now some people will reply to that with the common platitude of "play whatever is most fun", but that is just rephrasing my question. I don't know which character will be most fun, because that depends not only on myself, but also on the environment around me.

he he. The counter to you rephrasing: Tobold, you worry and think too much about the game, instead of just playing it :)


Will there suddenly be an abundance of possible tanks? Or will deathknights just be one of many classes vying for the "random" slot in a group after a tank and healer has been found?

Probably something in between...
 

I think the tank problem isn't directly related to the number of available classes to tank, but the desirability of the function/flexibility of the build.

If blizz does the deathknights right, they are good tanks for magic damage and leave the heavy physical mitigation to warriors/druids, and keep the AoE tanking with paladins.

But frankly I think Blizz has done things like these rather well in recent history so I'm not too worried about deathknights, though I do think that all deathknight parties will happen just because everybody will want to try their hands on the class.
 

My guess is that most players will focus on the damage dealer role when playing Deathknights and (mostly) ignore the tanking part.

Tanking is not popular because its a lot of work and frustration, especially when a pickup group needs to be coordinated. Unless Blizzard gives the Deathknights skills that make tanking really easy (and thus making other tank-classes mostly obsolete, as Tobold already stated) you will see a lot of 'I'm not a tank' comments in the LFG-Tool.

Concerning the 'wich character to level first?', =##= sums up my situation very nicely. My main char is a rogue and i really like playing him. I've got a lot of experience with my char, especially where raiding is concerned. Switching to another character means having to relearn a lot of things which are now more or less instinct with my rogue.

However, TBC has shown that after an expansion comes out there will be a vast pool of DDs desperatly looking for Tanks/Healers because a lot of them will be switching to DDs. This means finding an instance group won't be easy.

My alternative is my druid, with whom i have some experience in both tanking and healing (mostly heroics and some Kara-Raids with well equipped groups). Leveling the ultimate hybrid has obvious advantages and as a feral druid i can easily solo normal quests and play tank in a 5-man instance.

I guess my choice will depend on the situation in my guild - if a lot of tanks/healers want to switch, i'll probably switch too.
 

The counter to you rephrasing: Tobold, you worry and think too much about the game, instead of just playing it :)

Would you really want me to stop thinking about the game, which would imply me stopping to blog about the game as well? I'm not saying that you're wrong, I certainly think a lot about MMORPGs. But if I was just playing, I wouldn't be writing.
 

Would you really want me to stop thinking about the game, which would imply me stopping to blog about the game as well?

Not at all. Not at all. Just trying to be witty :)

But perhaps analazing and contemplating on the current game mechanics is more rewarding, than speculating on an uncertain, unknown future state?
 

I love discussions on DeathKnights, as they have the capability to break the game structure in a way no other hybrid has before :)

I think a viable way for a DK to exist is as a bit of a Mage, bit of a Rogue-in-plate. They might do a bit of damage or some LIMITED offtanking a single non-boss mob, but if they do real tanking and cast spells then, well, a bunch of people are out of a job.

We already have Bear tanks, who are pretty good, but don't scale (crushing blows, much?). Paladin tanks are good, but mostly for 5-mans and AoE. Warriors are still probably best for single target boss killing, their high HP and armour and skills lends to this, but only because that's the way encounters are designed.

It wouldn't surprise me if we see some new encounter types, and I think the game will break (remember TBC's AoE cleave + Rogues? Those guys weren't so happy after go-live). It'll balance out, and DK's will find a place - but only after a river of tears has been cried out of their forums, the Paladin forums, the Warrior forums, and a few caster forums. Yeah, that's all the forums.

'Cept Druids and Warlocks, those guys own.
 

The answer is obviously, roll a death knight!

I think off-tanks and probably retribution paladins feel the most threatened right now.

For tanking warriors - there's already plenty of alternatives for tanking and paladins are frankly better for tanking 5 man content than warriors at the moment (do a shattered halls run with a paladin tanking and you'll see what I mean). I like playing my warrior but I see how much easier it is to tank some of the content for other classes and I do wonder.
 

I thought DKs would be more like tankmages, and therefore be more of a threat to dps paladins than to warriors. But hey I have no idea of course.

Druids and Warlocks, those guys own

Yes! People think the lower level of complaining on the forums is because they're both overpowered,but really it's because they're the cool kids and know it. Rawr!
 

Back in beta, I always got the impression that Hero classes would be extensions of the base classes, not new classes altogether.

Ie. a Death Knight would be a Hero version of a Horde Paladin and a Blademaster might be a Hero version of a Rogue. Etc...

I guess not, eh?
 

a Death Knight would be a Hero version of a Horde Paladin and a Blademaster might be a Hero version of a Rogue. Etc...

I don't think it works like that. A paladin, even a Horde one, is a "good" character, using "holy" damage. Lore-wise I don't see how you could say that a Hero version of a good paladin would be something you could call an anti-paladin. From a gameplay point of view paladins are tank healers, so why would a hero version of them suddenly lose all healing abilities and become a tank dpser.

I'm not even sure if there will be one hero class per current WoW basic class. And even if there were, and even if Blizzard miraculously started producing one expansion per year, at a rate of one hero class per expansion that would take until 2016 to release them all. I'm not sure players would want to wait so long for the hero version of "their" class.

I'd guess that the new classes are just that, new, and have no direct relation to the existing classes. If anything the deathknight is providing us with a combination of skills that wasn't available before, melee spellcasting, not an extension of a previous class.
 

As far as I know you don't have to rush to 80 to unlock the DK quest. They changed their minds on that but haven't said what level you need to be to get the quest yet.
 

Of course it's possible the Deathknight quest will be something like a 45-minute Baron Run, virtually impossible to do at first by any but the T6 crowd. I would not be surprised at all if the Deathknight quest involves killing an end Boss (or two, or three...) in one (or two, or three...) of WotLK's lvl 80 Instances, something like getting attuned for Kara.
 

They said it would be like the Warlock dreadstead quest. So no this isn't going to be hard.
 

First, there is no longer any "Death Knight" quest. Blizzard toyed with the idea, but has said they've rejected the idea of an 'unlock' quest at level 80 because people would rush to 80 just to unlock the class.

So, as it stands now, anyone can start a DK right when they buy, install and activate WotLK. DKs will start around level 55, the actual number is still in flux.

There will be three trees:
- Frost
- Blood
- Unholy

Hopefully one of these trees will be analogous to the Druid's Feral tree, in that it is the best for leveling and tanking, and thus DKs will be viable tanks leveling up. Since the stated purpose of introducing a tank/DPS hybrid first was to help with the tank shortage, this is probably a safe bet.

Thus DKs will likely be good tanks for non-heroic instances and solid DPS, akin to feral druids. This means there'll be a shortage of healers, and "4 DK LFG HEALER" won't be uncommon.

Personally, I'm going to stick with my holy paladin, because I feel the lack of healers will make it exceedingly easy to get groups when I want them. I plan to level as Ret but carry around a Holy set (which is perfectly fine for non-heroics leveling up).
 

Hmmm...
From the previous post if implemented as those listed trees give me a 'first impression', sounds kinda like a shamadin. Maybe they'll draw frost glyphs on the ground, curse the target, pop unholy shield, and cast blood shock? I hope not...

So anyway...

I don't feel threatened.

It may be like any other fad:
- Everyone rolls one!
- Then there are too many
- Meanwhile the numbers of other classes are thinned
- And the death knights crowd LFG while the other classes fill their under-populated roles

As someone said, improperly implemented, death knights could break the game. But Blizzard is typically more careful than that, and certainly tweaks classes when they think there is an imbalance. It will interesting to see which class(es) is/are 'thinned' by feeding into death knight (or possibly made 'obsolete' by death knight), and which classes are the nemesis of the death knight in the rock-paper-scissors of PvP (paladin?)

If I had to guess, I'd say that the somewhat-pigeonholed warrior and paladin classes are good candidates for death knight if it's a 'feed-in' model.
Tired of being a solo-unfriendly, gear-dependent punching-bag for instance and raid bosses?
Tired of being a rear-area healer-in-plate?
Tired of having to collect two or three sets of gear and re-spec for different roles?
Roll death knight! The newest melee / caster hybrid!
One gear set! One spec! Multiple roles!!

I would like to see what would amount to a pally who can 'lock into' DPS or healing or tanking by using various combinations of blessings and stances. The combinations will have long (like 8-hour) cooldowns, with the death knight locked-into a specific 'trinity' role until his cooldowns expire - at which time he could pop a new combination. His gear attributes will not be static, but instead will follow a newly-implemented model of keying off his spec. For example, if he 'locks into' tank mode, the stam and defense gear stats activate; but if he 'locks into' healer mode, the int and +heal stats kick in.

Just dreamin' :)
 

I don't think the deathknight long term will fix or break the tanking problem.

There are several problems in BC related to tanking. One there is little reason to go back to the 5 mans after you are geared. Pre BC there were orbs in strat, alchemy stuff in scholo and several patterns and BOE's that dropped in the 5 mans that made running them lucrative. In BC they are just a repair bill.

Second the solo to end game has so ruined the PUG scene because of all the DPS classes that just flat out don't understand how aggro and group mechanics work. And the tank who has higher durability has higher repairs when they screw up.

Add that to the LFG tool that just flat out sucks compared to the old LFG channel because you are advertising to 100 or less people instead of to the entire server when you form a group and I don't see the tanking situation getting anybetter.

When the expansion releases it will seem to be better till everyone hits endgame and then it will be just like it is now.
 

Blizzard is totally screwing up the death knight class.

It's supposed to be a 'HERO' class, yet Blizzard has said they want it to be available to everyone and they will not be making it any more powerful than any other class.

So uhmm... what's HERO about it then?
 

As long as damage-dealing and tanking are separate roles, there will always be a dearth of tanks.

Mechanics-wise, Warriors will still reign supreme in terms of scaling in the high end. Warriors will still gain rage based on damage dealt and damage received, and use that rage to pay for their abilities. Thus, as their gear gets better, the warrior's abilities get better... and better... and better. They can (and will) scale up forever, as long as new gear gets introduced... and we all know that gear is the main method of advancement in wow.

The Death Knight is more like a rogue; three different pools of energy, but still on a time-based resource recovery mechanic. This means that DKs will be more like rogues than warriors in raids. In groups, it will probably depend on spec... death knights will likely be similar to druids and paladins - they will have to specifically spec to tank well.

And therein lies the rub... Unless the Death Knight "tanking" tree is also similar to their leveling tree (e.g. Feral Druids), they won't be tanking as they level. There will probably be a few tanking DKs at level cap, since some people like tanking, but it is much more likely to see a lot of DPS-specced DKs looking for a tank.

--Rawr
 

Looks like blogger ate my linkback again...

My thoughts are too long for a comment and can be found here.

/shameless plug
 

I'm pretty underwhelmed with everything I've seen about Deathknights. Adding new classes to an MMO is nothing new, games have done this many, many times. Here we are, 3 years later, and still playing the same 8 classes. Only adding one new class with poorly defined traits and a hokey way of gaining access to them just leaves me scratching my head and asking "wtf, blizzard?"
 

DKs will fill very a void. First and foremost, there is a lack of tacking classes in general, based the the launch of the game, when only warriors could ever be considered viable for the tanking role.

When BC launched ferals became the new flavor of the month tank and they earned their ground pretty much for now, upsetting warriors at the same time, cause of the imbalance that is the feral tree, combining DPS and tanking talents in one tree.

Paladins still lack any viable tanking reputation. While viable and in parts superior to the other two, the majority of the players still will not consider paladins as viable tanks.

Except maybe druids, all tanks have serious issues considering the whole scope of the game. They do not stack at all, they're useless in pvp and they can not do anything solo.

All of those points will be adressed with DKs. Expect them to be viable in PvP, expect them to bring gimmicks so they stack with other classes, even when not tanking and first and foremost, expect them to get the kool aid injection.

Guess wich tank players might prefer: an oversized bear, tanks with sword and board, or tanks dual wielding or swinging oversized twohands?

I also guess DKs will be the most fun to play tanks. You played EQ Tobold. DKs will be what Paladins and shadow knights were back then, a way more fun experience to play, but never touching the parent class.

I'm sure DKs will be Feral 2.0, fun to play, with less restrictions like other tanks, for the trade off, of pure bleeding edge imbalance. They will get fun mechanics to play, with a "cool look" on top. It's hard to judge how players will adapt. I mean Blizzard said, this will be a tanking class first, but so are warrior right now, and you still see many of them taking non-tank slots. This is the worst case scenario for DKs, when you get yet another sub-par DPS-hybrid. They need to push this class into tanking as hard as they can.
 

So, as it stands now, anyone can start a DK right when they buy, install and activate WotLK. DKs will start around level 55, the actual number is still in flux.

Not exactly, Alc. From everything I've read, DKs will be available for any player with a character of the appropriate level (55, 60, or 70) or higher. Considering that the Death Knight is previously a member of the Scourge, I would imagine that 55 or 60 is the proper number (an escape from a special portion of Scholomance or Stratholme comes to mind as a good place to start).

Basically, someone who just buys WoW, tBC, and WotLK can't create a Death Knight until they get their first character up to the right level. At that point they can then logout and create a Death Knight.

====

As for my views on the role that DKs will fill, I'll first quote Tigole:

We made some really good strides in The Burning Crusade to improve the feral druid as a hybrid tank/dps class. That will be the general direction we'll be looking to go with the death knight. Obviously, the protection warrior is in a good place in terms of dungeon and raid tanking. And the protection paladin is hands-down the best multi-target tank. Of course, there's always room for improvement, but you can see the general direction the tanking classes are headed. While all of these classes are capable of fulfilling similar roles, they offer very different abilities and playstyles.

Reading that, they intend for Death Knights to have a fluid hybrid role of Tank and DPS, akin to the current position of Druids. Since Druids are considered (for 5-mans and heroics) just as effective a type of tank as a Warrior or a Paladin, I could not imagine that Death Knights would not fit into that position as well.

Raids are the only area where I expect Death Knights will not be called upon to be main tanks as much as Warriors or Paladins are. Now, this is not because Death Knights will be worse tanks, rather that if they have the proposed fluidity equal or close to of Druids they are better off placed in a off-tank position on a target that will die first. By placing a Death Knight there, when their target dies, they can then change into a more DPS oriented setup (possibly some way to change what runes you are using) and give more DPS than a Prot Warrior or a Prot Paladin.

======

In response to your dilemma of which class to level first, I recommend going with what you were thinking about: Warrior. Originally I was going to say which one you should level depends on what level Death Knights start at but I realized it doesn't matter. You're at an advantage either way. Allow me to explain.

If Death Knights start at level 55 or 60, then you would obviously be at an advantage. Most of the new Death Knights made right at WotLK's release will get tired of DKs before they reach 70, going back to their mains. Even the Death Knights who do make it to 70 will still be behind you, as by that time you'll be at 75 if not 80, meaning they represent no "threat" to your position as a tank.

Now, on the other hand, if they start Death Knights at 70 (unlikely in my opinion, but since the devs mentioned it, it's worth considering), you still have the distinct advantage of one thing: You are a Warrior. While for the first about five levels you won't be able to throw a Death Knight without hitting another two Death Knights (all with "great" names like Deathreaper and Lifebane), everyone who's playing them at this level won't really know how to play them. Think about it from this perspective: You are the leader of a party, and you need a tank... there is a Warrior and a Death Knight both available via the LFG tool. Which would you pick? As for me, I'd take the Warrior (or a Paladin or a Druid) before I'd even think of taking the Death Knight. Nothing personal against DKs, but if they start at 70, that means they've just begun to learn how to play their class. I certainly don't want them tanking my 5-mans yet. Maybe at 75 I'd consider it, but that's really the earliest (this is why I'm expecting 55 or 60 as the starting level).
 

Well as a PvPing Warrior.. I'm a little pissed, but i will give the DKs hell in trying to out DPS me. I say bring it on and ill earn my spot above them